Trumpets Already Sounded?

NightHawkeye

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I've already offered up explanations for most of the trumpets in my earlier Chernobyl thread. I won't repeat those here. Instead, I'll simply offer a sequence which seems most likely to me, but I want to stress that the only trumpets I have examined in great detail are trumpets three and five.

Trumpet 1: WWII in Europe
Trumpet 2: WWII in Pacific
Trumpet 3: Chernobyl disaster
Trumpet 4: Black rains in Belarus
Trumpet 5: Gulf War

Of these, the only one I haven't discussed is the fourth trumpet so I'll do so now. It's interesting in that although the black rains in Belarus followed the Chernobyl meltdown and were prompted by it, this was a distinctly different man-made disaster involving a similar horrendous number of deaths. The fact that these rains resulted from a massive Soviet military cloud-seeding operation was not made public until just a few years ago.
 

NightHawkeye

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the.Sheepdog

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Nope. none of the trumpets have sounded yet. They are soon coming however! if you want to be relevant look into Psalm 83 and Isaiah 17.

Then notice news events about the combined fleets off the coast of Iran.

Hint: Not a good time to visit Syria or Damascus!
 
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HisdaughterJen

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Your comment's kinda hard to debate, Jen. You haven't provided much in the way of specifics.
Revelation is in order. In order for the trumpets to have already begun, the devil has to have been cast down and the mark implemented, the church would be standing before the throne in Heaven, gog/damascus destroyed.

None of that has happened yet.

What you are seeing all around you is the great tribulation that Jesus said would begin with the desolation of Israel. It has been going on for nearly 2000 years. It will be cut short when the Northern (gog) army is invading when the sun/moon darken/stars fall (6th seal).

The trumpets are part of the wrath of God which is the 7th seal. That hasn't even started yet. It will happen as Revelation describes within a 3 1/2 year time frame.
 
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interpreter

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Yes, the 7 trumpets have sounded. They trumpet the major events of WW II, the great tribulation.
For example the sixth one foretells of the 200 million horses prepared (or manufactured) to be released in one day, on D-Day, against Hitler the antichrist. The four angels represent (or help?) the four Christian nations that manufactured the 200 million horsepower (the US, Canada, England, and Australia). And the beaches of Normandy happen to be pointed to by the starguide of chapter 1 which forms 21 vectors that point to all the good things foretold.
 
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gracechick

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Nope. none of the trumpets have sounded yet. They are soon coming however! if you want to be relevant look into Psalm 83 and Isaiah 17.

Then notice news events about the combined fleets off the coast of Iran.

Hint: Not a good time to visit Syria or Damascus!
You see this military move as the prophcied strike and not just more saber rattling?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Trumpets Already Sounded?

LLOJ subscribes :wave:
Yes, the 7 trumpets have sounded. They trumpet the major events of WW II, the great tribulation.
For example the sixth one foretells of the 200 million horses prepared (or manufactured) to be released in one day, on D-Day, against Hitler the antichrist. The four angels represent (or help?) the four Christian nations that manufactured the 200 million horsepower (the US, Canada, England, and Australia). And the beaches of Normandy happen to be pointed to by the starguide of chapter 1 which forms 21 vectors that point to all the good things foretold.
That is what Preterists believe also :thumbsup: :)
 
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NightHawkeye

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Revelation is in order. In order for the trumpets to have already begun, the devil has to have been cast down and the mark implemented, the church would be standing before the throne in Heaven, gog/damascus destroyed.

None of that has happened yet.

What you are seeing all around you is the great tribulation that Jesus said would begin with the desolation of Israel. It has been going on for nearly 2000 years. It will be cut short when the Northern (gog) army is invading when the sun/moon darken/stars fall (6th seal).

The trumpets are part of the wrath of God which is the 7th seal. That hasn't even started yet. It will happen as Revelation describes within a 3 1/2 year time frame.
Your worn-out old arguments defy all logic, Jen. They've been proven incorrect many times by multiple people here. For starters, your own proposed timeline fails your claim that the revelation timeline is in order.

HisdaughterJen said:
The bowls are between the 6th and 7th trumpets of the 7th seal.

The 7th bowl and the 7th trumpet are one and the same.

Revelation is like this:

A 7-sealed scroll:
1. Seals 1-4 opened, consecutively together at the ascension of Christ who sent them out, after appearing heaven as the "slain lamb". And yes, this can be proven with scriptures.
2. Seals 5-7 opened consecutively together as Christ is returning. And yes, this can also be proven with scriptures.

Seal #7 of that scroll looks like this:
1. Trumpets 1-6
2. Bowls 1-6
3. Trumpet 7/Bowl 7 which are the same
By all means believe what you will, Jen.
 
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HisdaughterJen

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Your worn-out old arguments defy all logic, Jen. They've been proven incorrect many times by multiple people here. For starters, your own proposed timeline fails your claim that the revelation timeline is in order.

By all means believe what you will, Jen.

NO, in fact, no one has been able to dispute the FACTS that are that Revelations Seals are in order, the Trumpets are in order, and the bowls are in order. That is undeniable.

You would have us believe that the 7th seal somehow comes before the 6th seal which defies logic.
 
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NightHawkeye

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NO, in fact, no one has been able to dispute the FACTS that are that Revelations Seals are in order, the Trumpets are in order, and the bowls are in order. That is undeniable.[
Exactly. I agree with this and have stated so previously.

You would have us believe that the 7th seal somehow comes before the 6th seal which defies logic.
NO. You are making a false accusation.

I have previously stated very clearly that the seals are in order, the trumpets are in order, the bowls are in order and the woes are in order. That order does not, however, imply that the first trumpet follow in sequence after the seventh seal, or that the first vial (bowl) judgement occur after the seventh trumpet.

You truly misunderstand my prior postings. If you find that I've posted anything contrary to the above, please let me know and I'll gladly correct it.
 
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HisdaughterJen

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Exactly. I agree with this and have stated so previously.

NO. You are making a false accusation.

I have previously stated very clearly that the seals are in order, the trumpets are in order, the bowls are in order and the woes are in order. That order does not, however, imply that the first trumpet follow in sequence after the seventh seal, or that the first vial (bowl) judgement occur after the seventh trumpet.

You truly misunderstand my prior postings. If you find that I've posted anything contrary to the above, please let me know and I'll gladly correct it.

Apparently I have confused you will Achilles who believes that the 7th seal happens 21 months before the 6th seal which is illogical.
I'm sorry about that.

You can tell that the bowls are between the 6th and 7th trumpets in two ways (right off the top of my head) -

1. The 7th trumpet and the 7th bowl are identical - earthquake, hail, "it is done".
2. The bowls cannot follow the 7th trumpet because during the bowls the beast gathers the armies of the world to Armageddon to fight an enemy (Christ) that is coming from the sky. That "battle" (which isn't really a battle but a complete devastation/destruction of anti-christ and his armies and all the evil) takes place AFTER those armies have gathered, as Christ is returning after the 7th trumpet.

Trying to simplify: The gathering for war in the bowls happens when the anti-christ is still in control. The anti-christ is not still in control after the 7th trumpet. That gathering for war takes place BEFORE the actual "battle" happens. That actual battle happens AFTER the 7th trumpet. Therefore, the bowls are between the 6th and 7th trumpets. They are poured out on the kingdom of the anti-christ before the anti-christ and his armies are destroyed.


Seals 1-4 (open and riding since the ascension of Christ)
Seals 5-7 (coming soon)
Seal #7 looks like this:
Trumpets 1-6
Bowls 1-6
Trumpet 7/Bowl 7 which are identical
Destruction
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Maybe the world is just too messed up because of greedy sinful people.

God doesn't need to destroy the world. He can just sit back and watch mankind do it for him. *sigh*
So far, it appears they are doing a fine job of it :p
 
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JudgeEden

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Since this is such a huge subject, I thought I would make it easier on myself if I were to post someone's input who can explain it really good.


[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]DANIEL AND REVELATION, Chapter 8, p 477-480, by Uriah Smith.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "VERSE 7. The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] Mr. Keith has very justly remarked on the subject of this prophecy:-[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "None could elucidate the texts more clearly, or expound them more fully, than the task has been performed by Gibbon. The chapters of the skeptical philosopher that treat directly of the matter, need but a text to be prefixed, and a few unholy words to be blotted out, to form a series of expository lectures on the eighth and ninth chapters of Revelation." "Little or nothing is left for the professed interpreter to do but to point to the pages of Gibbon."[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] The first sore and heavy judgment which fell on Western Rome in its downward course, was the war with the Goths under Alaric, who opened the way for later inroads. The death of Theodosius, the Roman emperor, occurred in January, 395, and before the end of the winter the Goths under Alaric were in arms against the empire.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] The first invasion under Alaric ravaged Thrace, Macedonia, Attica, and the Peloponnesus, but did not reach the city of Rome. On his second invasion, however, the Gothic chieftain crossed the Alps and the Apennines and appeared before the walls of the "eternal city," which soon fell a prey to the fury of the barbarians.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "Hail and fire mingled with blood" were cast upon the earth. The terrible effects of this Gothic invasion are represented as "hail," from the fact of the northern origin of the invaders; "fire," from the destruction by flame of both city and country; and "blood," from the terrible slaughter of the citizens of the empire by the bold and intrepid warriors.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] The blast of the first trumpet has its location about the close of the fourth century and onward, and refers to these desolating invasions of the Roman empire under the Goths.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] I know not how the history of the sounding of the first trumpet can be more impressively set forth than by presenting the graphic rehearsal of the facts which are stated in Gibbon's History, by Mr. Keith, in his Signs of the Times, Vol. I, pp. 221-233:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "Large extracts show how amply and well Gibbon has expounded his text in the history of the first trumpet, the first storm that pervaded the Roman earth, and the first fall of Rome. To use his words in more direct comment, we read thus the sum of the matter: 'The Gothic nation was in arms at the first sound of the trumpet, and in the uncommon severity of the winter, they rolled their ponderous wagons over the broad and icy back of the river. The fertile fields of Phocis and Boeotia were crowded with a deluge of barbarians,; the males were massacred; the females and cattle of the flaming villages were driven away. The deep and bloody traces of the march of the Goths could easily be discovered after several years. The whole territory of Attica was blasted by the baneful presence of Alaric. The most fortunate of the inhabitants of Corinth, Argos, and Sparta were saved by death from beholding the conflagration of their cities. In a season of such extreme heat that the beds of the rivers were dry, Alaric invaded the dominion of the West. A secluded "old man of Verona," the poet Claudian, pathetically lamented the fate of his contemporary trees. which must blaze in the conflagration of the whole country [note the words of the prophecy, - "The third part of the trees was burned up"]; and the emperor of the Romans fled before the king of the Goths.'[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "A furious tempest was excited among the nations of Germany, from the northern extremity of which the barbarians marched almost to the gates of Rome. They achieved the destruction of the West. The dark cloud which was collected along the coasts of the Baltic, burst in thunder upon the banks of the upper Danube. The pastures of Gaul, in which flocks and herds grazed, and the banks of the Rhine, which were covered with elegant houses and well-cultivated farms, formed a scene of peace and plenty, which was suddenly changed into a desert, distinguished from the solitude of nature only by smoking ruins. Many cities were cruelly oppressed, or destroyed. Many thousands were inhumanly massacred; and the consuming flames of war spread over the greater part of the seventeen provinces of Gaul.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "Alaric again stretched his ravages over Italy. During four years the Goths ravaged and reigned over it without control. And in the pillage and fire of Rome, the streets of the city were filled with dead bodies; the flames consumed many public and private buildings; and the ruins of a palace remained (after a century and a half) a stately monument of the Gothic conflagration.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "The concluding sentence of the thirty-third chapter of Gibbon's History is of itself a clear and comprehensive commentary; for in winding up his own description of this brief but most eventful period, he concentrates, as in a parallel reading, the sum of the history and the substance of the prediction. But the words which precede it are not without their meaning: 'The public devotion of the age was impatient to exalt the saints and martyrs of the Catholic Church on the altars of Diana and Hercules. The union of the Roman empire was dissolved; its genius was humbled in the dust; and armies of unknown barbarians, issuing from the frozen regions of the North, had established their victorious reign over the fairest provinces of Europe and Africa.'[/FONT]
 
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JudgeEden

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Also, before we move on to the second trumpet, HisDaughterJen has some error. It's a rather common error really. The whole 3 and 1/2 years thing? Most Christians apply it totally wrong. In prophecy, a day equals a full year. So the 3 and 1/2 years would instead be, 1260 years.


[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]GREAT NATIONS OF TODAY, Chapter 4, p 28-35, by Alonso T. Jones. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] THAT last word, "Africa," indicates the scenes of the Second Trumpet. The center of motion now "changes from the shores of the Baltic Sea to the southern coast of the Mediterranean: from the frozen regions of the north to the borders of burning Africa." Under this Trumpet, instead of a storm of hail falling upon the earth, a great burning mountain was cast into the sea. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea; and the third part of the sea became blood; and the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed." Rev. 8:8, 9. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] The period covered by this Trumpet is from 428 to 476; and the prophecy was fulfilled in the terrible Genseric, King of the Vandals, and "Monarch of the Sea;" whose ravages fixed forever in human language the term expressive of wilful, wanton, and ignorant destruction -- "Vandalism;" and who "spread his negotiations round the world." -- Gibbon, Chap. XXXXII, par. 10 from end; Chap. XXXIV, par. 4. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] After the Vandals, with the Alani, the Suevi, and the Burgundians, had devastated Gaul, they with the Alani and the Suevi overran the whole Spanish peninsula. There the Alani lost their king, and instead of electing another king they chose to unite with the nation of the Vandals. In 429 the whole nation of the Vandals removed from Spain into Africa. In ten years they subdued the whole Mediterranean coast to Carthage, which they entered and made their capital, Oct. 9, 439. "As soon as he touched the coast, or at least as soon as the docks and harbors of Hippo and Carthage were in his power, he, a leader of a tribe of inland barbarians, who had been indebted to the friendly offices of Bonifacius for the transport of his vessels across the Straits of Gibraltar, turned all his energies to shipbuilding; and soon possessed incomparably the most formidable naval power in the Mediterranean." -- "Italy and Her Invaders," Book III, Chap. II, par. 49. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] From his African capital "the discovery and conquest of the black nations that might dwell beneath the torrid zone, could not tempt the rational ambition of Genseric; but he cast his eyes toward the sea; he resolved to create a naval power, and his bold resolution was executed with steady and active perseverance. The woods of Mt. Atlas afforded an inexhaustible supply of timber; his new subjects were skilled in the arts of navigation and shipbuilding; he animated his daring Vandals to embrace a mode of warfare which would render every maritime country accessible to their arms; the Moors and Africans were allured by the hopes of plunder; and, after an interval of six centuries, the fleets that issued from the port of Carthage again claimed the empire of the Mediterranean." [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] From 439 to 445 Genseric's enterprise was crowned with success in "the conquest of Sicily, the sack of Palermo, and the frequent descents on the coast of Lucania." These successes awakened and alarmed the weak rulers of failing Rome. But all "the designs of the Roman government were repeatedly baffled by his artful delays, ambitious promises, and apparent concessions." Genseric had a formidable confederate on the Danube, whose motions could disconcert any attempt of the Roman authorities to attack Carthage; and, in 455, Genseric, with his fleet, "cast anchor at the mouth of the Tiber." Just at this time there was a crisis in the imperial family in Rome, and the Emperor Maximus was attacked by the people in the streets, and was stoned to death, and cast into the Tiber. "On the third day after the tumult, Genseric boldly advanced from the port of Ostia to the gates of the defenseless city." There was no army to defend the city; and Pope Leo the Great, at the head of his clergy, met him outside of the gates, and pleaded that he spare the city. However, all that Genseric would even promise was that the people should not be slaughtered, the buildings should not be burned, and the captives should not be tortured. But the whole city and its people "were delivered to the licentiousness of the Vandals and Moors, whose blind passions revenged the injuries of Carthage. The pillage lasted fourteen days and nights; and all that yet remained of public or private wealth, of sacred or profane treasure, was diligently transported to the vessels of Genseric. . . . The holy instruments of the Jewish worship, the gold table, and the gold candlestick with seven branches, originally framed according to the particular instructions of God himself, and which were placed in the sanctuary of His temple, had been ostentatiously displayed to the Roman people in the triumph of Titus. They were afterwards deposited in the Temple of Peace; and at the end of four hundred years, the spoils of Jerusalem were transferred from Rome to Carthage, by a barbarian who derived his origin from the shores of the Baltic. . . . [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "In the forty-five years that had elapsed since the Gothic invasion, the pomp and luxury of Rome were in some measure restored; and it was difficult either to escape, or to satisfy, the avarice of a conqueror who possessed leisure to collect, and ships to transport the wealth of the capital. The imperial ornaments of the palace, the magnificent furniture and wardrobe, the sideboards of massive plate, were accumulated with disorderly rapine; the gold and silver amounted to several thousand talents; yet even the brass and copper were laboriously removed. . . . Many thousand Romans of both sexes, chosen for some useful or agreeable qualifications, reluctantly embarked on board the fleet of Genseric; and their distress was aggravated by the unfeeling barbarians, who, in the division of the booty, separated the wives from their husbands, and the children from their parents." [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] Two years afterward the Emperor Majorian determined to invade Africa, and break the power of Genseric. Three years were spent in building a fleet. "The woods of the Apennines were felled; the arsenals and manufactures of Ravenna and Misenum were restored; Italy and Gaul vied with each other in liberal contributions to the public service; and the Imperial navy of three hundred galleys, with an adequate proportion of transports and smaller vessels, was collected in the secure and capacious harbor of Carthagena in Spain." But Genseric "surprised the unguarded fleet in the Bay of Carthagena: many of the ships were sunk, or taken, or burnt; and the preparations of three years were destroyed in a single day." [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] After this experience Rome was weaker, and Genseric was even more terrible than ever before. "In the spring of each year they equipped a formidable navy in the port of Carthage, and Genseric himself, though in a very advanced age, still commanded in person the most important expeditions. His designs were concealed with impenetrable secrecy till the moment that he hoisted sail. When he was asked by his pilot what course he should steer, `Leave the determination to the winds,' replied the barbarian, with pious arrogance; `they will transport us to the guilty coast whose inhabitants have provoked the divine justice.' But if Genseric himself deigned to issue more precise orders, he judged the most wealthy to be the most criminal. The Vandals repeatedly visited the coasts of Spain, Liguria, Tuscany, Campania, Lucania, Brutium, Apulia, Calabria, Venetia, Dalmatia, Epirus, Greece, and Sicily; they were tempted to subdue the island of Sardinia, so advantageously placed in the center of the Mediterranean, and their arms spread desolation or terror from the columns of Hercules to the mouth of the Nile. As they were more ambitious of spoil than of glory, they seldom attacked any fortified cities, or engaged any regular troops in the open field. But the celerity of their motions enabled them, almost at the same time, to threaten and to attack the most distant objects which attracted their desires; and as they always embarked a sufficient number of horses, they had no sooner landed than they swept the dismayed country with a body of light cavalry." Their resources being now utterly exhausted, the rulers of the remains of the Western Empire appealed to the Eastern Empire for aid against the Vandals. This was finally gained. A great fleet was gathered, and manned at a cost of five million eight hundred and fifty thousand pounds sterling -- nearly thirty millions of dollars. "The powers of the Eastern Empire were strenuously exerted to deliver Italy and the Mediterranean from the Vandals; and Genseric, who had so long oppressed both the land and sea, was threatened from every side with a formidable invasion." [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "The fleet that sailed [A. D. 468] from Constantinople to Carthage, consisted of eleven hundred and thirteen ships, and the number of soldiers and mariners exceeded one hundred thousand men." A separate force from Egypt and Libya landed in Tripoli and marched to the attack of Carthage by land. The two forces met at Cape Bona, forty miles from Carthage; and if the Commander-in-chief "had seized the moment of consternation, and boldly advanced to the capital, Carthage must have surrendered, and the kingdom of the Vandals was extinguished. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "Genseric beheld the danger with firmness, and eluded it with veteran dexterity." He represented that he was ready to yield himself and his dominions to the Emperor; but desired a five-days' truce to arrange the terms. The Roman Commander "consented to the fatal truce." [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "During this short interval the wind became favorable to the designs of Genseric. He manned his largest ships of war with the bravest of the Moors and Vandals; and they towed after them many large barks filled with combustible materials. In the obscurity of the night these destructive vessels were impelled against the Romans, who were awakened by a sense of their instant danger. Their close and crowded order assisted the progress of the fire, which was communicated with rapid and irresistible violence, and the noise of the winds, the crackling of the flames, the dissonant cries of the soldiers and mariners, who could neither command nor obey, increased the horror of the nocturnal tumult. Whilst they labored to extricate themselves from the fireships, and to save at least a part of the navy, the galleys of Genseric assaulted them with temperate and disciplined valor; and many of the Romans who escaped the fury of the flames, were destroyed or taken by the victorious Vandals. . . . [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "After the failure of this great expedition, Genseric again became the tyrant of the sea; the coasts of Italy, Greece, and Asia, were again exposed to his revenge and avarice. Tripoli and Sardinia returned to his obedience; he added Sicily to the number of his provinces; and before he died, in the fullness of years and of glory, he beheld the FINAL EXTINCTION of the empire of the west." -- Gibbon, Chap. XXXVI, pars. 1-4, 13, 14, 16, 17, 21, 22. [/FONT]
 
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HisdaughterJen

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Also, before we move on to the second trumpet, HisDaughterJen has some error. It's a rather common error really. The whole 3 and 1/2 years thing? Most Christians apply it totally wrong. In prophecy, a day equals a full year. So the 3 and 1/2 years would instead be, 1260 years.

Uh, no...OBVIOUSLY!

The 3 1/2 years/ 1260 days/ 42 months is actually 3 1/2 years/ 1260 days/ 42 months.

There is no Scriptural basis for substituting a day for a year.

The fact that God used all three of those ways to say exactly how much time is passing should be a major clue that He means what He says in that regard.

Rev 13:5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months.


Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.



Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months.


Rev 11:3 And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
 
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NightHawkeye

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I'm sorry about that.
That's quite alright, Jen. It's kind of an understandable mistake since I agree with Achilles on quite a few things. For that matter, I agree with you on many things as well.

1. The 7th trumpet and the 7th bowl are identical - earthquake, hail, "it is done".
Since you've proved here that your idealized sequential interpretation (i.e., trumpets following seals and bowls following trumpets) can't exist, there is no logical argument left preventing the trumpets from already having started to sound.

With that in mind, I would argue that the evidence already presented for both the third and fifth trumpets having sounded is overwhelming.
 
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HisdaughterJen

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That's quite alright, Jen. It's kind of an understandable mistake since I agree with Achilles on quite a few things. For that matter, I agree with you on many things as well.


Since you've proved here that your idealized sequential interpretation (i.e., trumpets following seals and bowls following trumpets) can't exist, there is no logical argument left preventing the trumpets from already having started to sound.

With that in mind, I would argue that the evidence already presented for both the third and fifth trumpets having sounded is overwhelming.

Did you not even see this?

You can tell that the bowls are between the 6th and 7th trumpets in two ways (right off the top of my head) -

1. The 7th trumpet and the 7th bowl are identical - earthquake, hail, "it is done".
2. The bowls cannot follow the 7th trumpet because during the bowls the beast gathers the armies of the world to Armageddon to fight an enemy (Christ) that is coming from the sky. That "battle" (which isn't really a battle but a complete devastation/destruction of anti-christ and his armies and all the evil) takes place AFTER those armies have gathered, as Christ is returning after the 7th trumpet.

Trying to simplify: The gathering for war in the bowls happens when the anti-christ is still in control. The anti-christ is not still in control after the 7th trumpet. That gathering for war takes place BEFORE the actual "battle" happens. That actual battle happens AFTER the 7th trumpet. Therefore, the bowls are between the 6th and 7th trumpets. They are poured out on the kingdom of the anti-christ before the anti-christ and his armies are destroyed.


NightHawkeye, look closely at the bowls:

1st bowl on people who took mark - sores. What does that tell you? The anti-christ is in power, people have taken the mark.

2nd bowl and 3rd bowls - water to blood. Then it says:

Rev 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

What does that tell you? They were given blood to drink because they shed the blood of the saints and prophets. What saints and prophets? Think about that. The "saints and prophets" whom the people who are now drinking blood killed are the people who died at the hands of the beast and the two witnesses.

4th bowl - sun scorches. People still not repenting.

5th bowl - darkness, people still blaspheming God over their sores and pain, not repenting.

6th bowl - Euphrates dries up so that Eastern kings can gather for Armagedon, "frogs" (evil spirits) out of mouth of the devil, beast, false prophet to deceive the nations of the world to gather their armies to the battlefield of Armagedon. Think about that for a second. The devil/anti-christ/false prophet are gathering the kings and armies of the world to prepare to battle against Christ as he comes on the clouds to destroy.

7th bowl - earthquake, hail, voice from heaven saying, "it is done" - people still blaspheming, not repenting.

Now, 7th trumpet - earthquake, hail, voice from heaven saying, "the kingdoms of the world are become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ". Same as 7th bowl. Time to destroy those who destroy the earth.

THEN, look at the battle of Armageddon - Rev 19 - Christ comes on the clouds and destroys all the people gathered against Him and binds the devil.

HARMONY! Christ comes to destroy after the end of the 7th trumpet/7th bowl of the 7th seal. The gathering to Armagedon is in the 6th bowl. He can't come to destroy them until they have done their thing and gathered for war against Him.
 
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