Rev.8:2-6, When do the Trumpets Begin???

[Tigger Boy]

Rev. 8:2-6, WHEN DO THE SEVEN TRUMPETS BEGIN

Adventists recognize that the casting down of the censer indicates sudden termination of something. And, many claim that Mrs. White saw this scene in a vision. (See Early Writings, pp. 279-280) But, Mrs. White did not see that scene. If you read her comments in the given reference above , she clearly says that she saw Jesus standing before the Ark of The Covenant, not a angel standing before the Altar of Incense. E.W. view says nothing about the seven angels receiving seven trumpets (the first event in the sequence), neither does she say anything about the sounding of the trumpets in this reference.

Many seventeenth and eighteenth century Reformation writers believed the seven trumpets began with the fall of the Roman Empire around A.D. 400. William Miller too, excepted this view, so placing them in the past supported his claim of the coming of Christ in 1844.

Please give some thought to the following:

As one reads Rev. 8:2-6, the first event is of seven angels receiving seven trumpets.

Followed by an Angel having a golden censer offering incense on the Altar of Incense.

Followed by the same angel taking that censer filled with fire and hurling in on the earth.

Followed by peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and an earthquake [all on the earth]

Followed by the seven angels preparing to sound their trumpets.

If you except that the trumpets began around 400 A.D. Then what does the angel ministering at the Altar of Incense mean, and what historical facts prove that it has been fulfilled, since the texts indicate that the angels prepare to sound them AFTER the angel cast it’s censer to earth?

OR, which traditional Adventists interpretation do you think makes more sense to you?

 

[reddogs]

Rev. 8:2-6, WHEN DO THE SEVEN TRUMPETS BEGIN

Adventists recognize that the casting down of the censer indicates sudden termination of something. And, many claim that Mrs. White saw this scene in a vision. (See Early Writings, pp. 279-280) But, Mrs. White did not see that scene. If you read her comments in the given reference above , she clearly says that she saw Jesus standing before the Ark of The Covenant, not a angel standing before the Altar of Incense. E.W. view says nothing about the seven angels receiving seven trumpets (the first event in the sequence), neither does she say anything about the sounding of the trumpets in this reference.

Many seventeenth and eighteenth century Reformation writers believed the seven trumpets began with the fall of the Roman Empire around A.D. 400. William Miller too, excepted this view, so placing them in the past supported his claim of the coming of Christ in 1844.

Please give some thought to the following:

As one reads Rev. 8:2-6, the first event is of seven angels receiving seven trumpets.

Followed by an Angel having a golden censer offering incense on the Altar of Incense.

Followed by the same angel taking that censer filled with fire and hurling in on the earth.

Followed by peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and an earthquake [all on the earth]

Followed by the seven angels preparing to sound their trumpets.

If you except that the trumpets began around 400 A.D. Then what does the angel ministering at the Altar of Incense mean, and what historical facts prove that it has been fulfilled, since the texts indicate that the angels prepare to sound them AFTER the angel cast it’s censer to earth?

OR, which traditional Adventists interpretation do you think makes more sense to you?

This is a issue which seems to be brought up more to argue incessantly with no end in its discussions, and appears to just bring about more conflict than to understand or edify as we have seen.

 

[Tigger Boy]

This is a issue which seems to be brought up more to argue incessantly with no end in its discussions, and appears to just bring about more conflict than to understand or edify as we have seen.

Morning Reddogs, hope your feeling well this Sabbath morning. I believe the understanding of Rev. 8:2-6 is revealed in the earthly sanctuary model. However, before I share my understanding of the texts, I would first like to ask three questions of you.

1. At what point in time did Jesus become mans intercessor?

2. Why two alters in the earthy sanctuary?

3. What is the meaning of this texts. (2 Thess. 2:7) ... "but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way."?

 

[reddogs]

Morning Reddogs, hope your feeling well this Sabbath morning. I believe the understanding of Rev. 8:2-6 is revealed in the earthly sanctuary model. However, before I share my understanding of the texts, I would first like to ask three questions of you.

1. At what point in time did Jesus become mans intercessor?

2. Why two alters in the earthy sanctuary?

3. What is the meaning of this texts. (2 Thess. 2:7) ... "but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way."?

I think you can find the answers on these discusssions..

When does the Antichrist power show itself?

Lets take a look at 2 Thessalonians 2:7 2 Thessalonians 2:7 King James Version (KJV) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 2 Thessalonians 2:7 (New International Version) 7For the secret power of lawlessness is...

www.christianforums.com

The Sanctuary Study

The sanctuary doctrine is unique to Adventism and is critical to understand the whole bible. Much of the bible was written in sanctuary language. For example when Jesus said 'this cup is the new testament of my blood which is shed for many', it is 'impossible' to fully understand it without...

www.christianforums.com

Is the Investigative Judgement Scriptural?

Hiram Edson and certain other members of the Adventist movement were guided into the belief that the event predicted by Daniel 8:14 was not the return of Christ, but rather Christ's entrance into the Most Holy Place of the heavenly sanctuary. Adventists came to believe that the cleansing of the...

www.christianforums.com

 

[Tigger Boy]

Reddogs appreciate the materials you sent. Will read them all over, and I'm sure as you know, will most likely have some comments to share.

In the mean while, I'll pass along what I understand the passage means. Please share your thoughts as well. Blessings

Rev. 8:2-6, explanation
Mediation is the action of “stepping between” God’s wrath and sinful man. Adam and Eve were to be killed, “ the very day” they ate the forbidden fruit. However, that did not happen. Why? Because Jesus stepped in as Mediator and their execution and that of all fallen mankind has been stayed because Jesus has been mediating ever since and will continue until He is taken out of the way by the Father. (2 These. 2:7)

John 3:16, “ For God so loved the world… “, here in this texts we can see that it applies to more than us as individuals but on a larger scale it is a corporate declaration, ”the whole world.”

There were two altars in the earthly sanctuary, the brazen altar in the courtyard and the altar of incense before the vail within the Holy Place. Sin offerings were made each day by the priest at the Altar of Incense, this offering was called the “daily or continual” and was designed to teach Israel that it was only through the “daily” intercession of Jesus, that man could live without being destroyed by the wrath of god. It provide corporate atonement for the whole nation of Israel.

There are two differences between the daily at the altar of incense and the individual sin offerings at the brazen altar. The daily pointed back to what Jesus had done, when He stepped between the wrath of God and guilty man. while the sin offering pointed to an “pointed time” when Jesus would die for the sins of the world, corporately.

The second contrast between those two offerings was the daily was a corporate offering, whereas, the corporate sins of Israel were transferred into the sanctuary, While individual sins were transferred onto the horns of the brazen altar in the courtyard.

The sanctuary teaches these two very profound points, Jesus intercedes on two levels, corporate and individual. Only with this understanding can Rev. 8:2-6 be understood.

The events in Rev. 8:2-6 reveal that at some point in time the angel who is ministering before the altar of incense in the heavenly sanctuary which is the pattern for the earthly will cease offering incense, therefore, corporate mediation in behalf of the world will come to an end. This is the point in time when Jesus is taken out of the way by order of the Father. (2 These. 2:7)

A loving God does not pull surprises on His creation but has always warned us in advance of His forth coming wrath. Therefore, He will inform the inhabitants on earth that corporate intercession has ended, and His wrath will be forthcoming. Since we can not see into heaven to witness the termination of the daily, God has tied its termination with four physical events that shall be witnessed by all of mankind at the same time. They will happen in the exact order given within prophecy,

Peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lighting and a earthquake. These will be world wide events, as everyone must be put on alert.

Afterward, since corporate mediation has ended God’s full cup of wrath will be poured out upon the earth. However, only a third of the cup will be poured out during the seven trumpet judgement, as indicated in Rev.8: 6, through chapter 9. The fifth trumpet (Rev. 9:1-11) is the release of Satan and his angles from the abyss/spirit realm, to appear in bodily form upon the earth according to God’s timing and purposes. (2 These. 2:1-4)

(Rev. 13: 11-18) Is another prophecy pointing to Satan’s activity when correctly understood. The prophecy inform us He comes out of the earth. (Rev. 12: 1-10, describes Satan and his angles being cast out of heaven and into the earth. ) We are informed he/satan looks like the Lamb/Jesus, because Satan will be impersonating Jesus, “He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.” (2 These. 2:4)

The good news is that during the trumpet judgments individual salvation is still available to all. The seventh trumpet marks the end of God’s offer of salvation. The seven last plaques/ bowl judgements are then poured out upon the earth but only directed at those who have received the mark of the beats (Satan’s) they receive the other two thirds of the wrath remaining in God’s cup.

At the end of the seven plagues Jesus shall return for the saints. Hallelujah!

 

[reddogs]

Reddogs appreciate the materials you sent. Will read them all over, and I'm sure as you know, will most likely have some comments to share.

In the mean while, I'll pass along what I understand the passage means. Please share your thoughts as well. Blessings

Rev. 8:2-6, explanation
Mediation is the action of “stepping between” God’s wrath and sinful man. Adam and Eve were to be killed, “ the very day” they ate the forbidden fruit. However, that did not happen. Why? Because Jesus stepped in as Mediator and their execution and that of all fallen mankind has been stayed because Jesus has been mediating ever since and will continue until He is taken out of the way by the Father. (2 These. 2:7)

John 3:16, “ For God so loved the world… “, here in this texts we can see that it applies to more than us as individuals but on a larger scale it is a corporate declaration, ”the whole world.”

There were two altars in the earthly sanctuary, the brazen altar in the courtyard and the altar of incense before the vail within the Holy Place. Sin offerings were made each day by the priest at the Altar of Incense, this offering was called the “daily or continual” and was designed to teach Israel that it was only through the “daily” intercession of Jesus, that man could live without being destroyed by the wrath of god. It provide corporate atonement for the whole nation of Israel.

There are two differences between the daily at the altar of incense and the individual sin offerings at the brazen altar. The daily pointed back to what Jesus had done, when He stepped between the wrath of God and guilty man. while the sin offering pointed to an “pointed time” when Jesus would die for the sins of the world, corporately.

The second contrast between those two offerings was the daily was a corporate offering, whereas, the corporate sins of Israel were transferred into the sanctuary, While individual sins were transferred onto the horns of the brazen altar in the courtyard.

The sanctuary teaches these two very profound points, Jesus intercedes on two levels, corporate and individual. Only with this understanding can Rev. 8:2-6 be understood.

The events in Rev. 8:2-6 reveal that at some point in time the angel who is ministering before the altar of incense in the heavenly sanctuary which is the pattern for the earthly will cease offering incense, therefore, corporate mediation in behalf of the world will come to an end. This is the point in time when Jesus is taken out of the way by order of the Father. (2 These. 2:7)

A loving God does not pull surprises on His creation but has always warned us in advance of His forth coming wrath. Therefore, He will inform the inhabitants on earth that corporate intercession has ended, and His wrath will be forthcoming. Since we can not see into heaven to witness the termination of the daily, God has tied its termination with four physical events that shall be witnessed by all of mankind at the same time. They will happen in the exact order given within prophecy,

Peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lighting and a earthquake. These will be world wide events, as everyone must be put on alert.

Afterward, since corporate mediation has ended God’s full cup of wrath will be poured out upon the earth. However, only a third of the cup will be poured out during the seven trumpet judgement, as indicated in Rev.8: 6, through chapter 9. The fifth trumpet (Rev. 9:1-11) is the release of Satan and his angles from the abyss/spirit realm, to appear in bodily form upon the earth according to God’s timing and purposes. (2 These. 2:1-4)

(Rev. 13: 11-18) Is another prophecy pointing to Satan’s activity when correctly understood. The prophecy inform us He comes out of the earth. (Rev. 12: 1-10, describes Satan and his angles being cast out of heaven and into the earth. ) We are informed he/satan looks like the Lamb/Jesus, because Satan will be impersonating Jesus, “He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.” (2 These. 2:4)

The good news is that during the trumpet judgments individual salvation is still available to all. The seventh trumpet marks the end of God’s offer of salvation. The seven last plaques/ bowl judgements are then poured out upon the earth but only directed at those who have received the mark of the beats (Satan’s) they receive the other two thirds of the wrath remaining in God’s cup.

At the end of the seven plagues Jesus shall return for the saints. Hallelujah!

Here is a good video on that..

 

[Tigger Boy]

Reddogs, in response to the video you sent.

Vengeance
There is an important distinction between vengeance and revenge. Vengeance is a righteous process that lawfully achieves justice. When a disinterested party, who has no relationship with either a perpetrator of a crime (predator) or a victim of that crime, imposes a sentence on the predator on behalf of the victim, the disinterested party exercises vengeance. Revenge, on the other hand, is another word for retaliation. When an interested party, who has a relationship with the victim of a crime, imposes a sentence on a predator which the party deems appropriate, the interested party exacts revenge. The problem with revenge is that justice is often ignored to satisfy passion. In other words, the person exercising revenge will often go beyond the demands of justice and also become a predator.

When God implements justice, He seeks two objectives. The first objective is the restoration of the victim; the second objective is the punishment of the predator. The seven last plagues must be understood within the context of restitution. The seven bowls contain God’s vengeance. Jesus will lawfully extract restitution from the wicked during the seven last plagues because there will be no justice for God’s people during the Great Tribulation. The wicked will treat God’s saints with contempt and hatred. God’s people will have their possessions taken from them, and ultimately, many will die because of their loyalty to Jesus and their determination to obey the eternal gospel. De- mons will keep the wicked enraged at God’s saints. The wicked will impose an unimaginable level of cruelty and hardship on God’s people and there will be no justice for God’s despised people. Of course, the watchful eye of Jesus will not miss a single predatory act. Recording angels will capture every thought, word, and deed because Jesus will see that justice is served at the appointed time. At the end of the day, a God of love will repay the wicked with a double measure of the suffering they imposed on His saints. The apostle Paul was well acquainted with persecution and He wrote, “Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: ‘It is mine to avenge; I will repay,’ says the Lord.”9 We should never forget these words: “I will repay, says the Lord.”

We have examined the difference between vengeance and revenge because the seven bowls contain God’s vengeance. During the trumpet judgements, which are redemptive, the living shall be judged during desperate circumstances which will separate the people of Earth into two groups. The sheep will embrace the testimony of the 144,000/servant prophets and worship the Creator and love one another. The goats will rebel against God’s authority and submit to Babylon’s authority out of cowardice. The contest between God’s authority and Babylon’s authority will be sharp and distinct. At first, the wicked will do whatever it takes to save themselves from suffering, by receiving the mark in order to buy and sell, but they will eventually discover that the path of least resistance leads to slavery. Their master will be the devil. There will be no justice for God’s saints during the Great Tribulation, so Jesus Himself will execute vengeance on the wicked during the final seventy days of the Great Tribulation. Jesus will repay the wicked for their predatory behavior. The third angles message (Rev. 14:9,10) warns against receiving the mark/666 for all who do shall receive God’s wrath in full strength. That wrath is contained in the seven last plagues/bowl judgement.

With regard to the seven last plagues as stated above, this is in agreement with our teaching as it is explained on pg. 839 SDA Bible commentary, vol. 7. However, this is not what is being taught in the video you sent for my viewing. Greg Cavanah (presenter) believes salvation is still available during the seven last plagues.There are other new insights presented therein, which I have never heard before. Much of which I disagree as well. However, which is most surprising is I’ve been trying to share new insights on this platform and you and the rest have been very, very, resistant to anything new. Why is that?

 

[reddogs]

Reddogs, in response to the video you sent.

Vengeance
There is an important distinction between vengeance and revenge. Vengeance is a righteous process that lawfully achieves justice. When a disinterested party, who has no relationship with either a perpetrator of a crime (predator) or a victim of that crime, imposes a sentence on the predator on behalf of the victim, the disinterested party exercises vengeance. Revenge, on the other hand, is another word for retaliation. When an interested party, who has a relationship with the victim of a crime, imposes a sentence on a predator which the party deems appropriate, the interested party exacts revenge. The problem with revenge is that justice is often ignored to satisfy passion. In other words, the person exercising revenge will often go beyond the demands of justice and also become a predator.

When God implements justice, He seeks two objectives. The first objective is the restoration of the victim; the second objective is the punishment of the predator. The seven last plagues must be understood within the context of restitution. The seven bowls contain God’s vengeance. Jesus will lawfully extract restitution from the wicked during the seven last plagues because there will be no justice for God’s people during the Great Tribulation. The wicked will treat God’s saints with contempt and hatred. God’s people will have their possessions taken from them, and ultimately, many will die because of their loyalty to Jesus and their determination to obey the eternal gospel. De- mons will keep the wicked enraged at God’s saints. The wicked will impose an unimaginable level of cruelty and hardship on God’s people and there will be no justice for God’s despised people. Of course, the watchful eye of Jesus will not miss a single predatory act. Recording angels will capture every thought, word, and deed because Jesus will see that justice is served at the appointed time. At the end of the day, a God of love will repay the wicked with a double measure of the suffering they imposed on His saints. The apostle Paul was well acquainted with persecution and He wrote, “Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: ‘It is mine to avenge; I will repay,’ says the Lord.”9 We should never forget these words: “I will repay, says the Lord.”

We have examined the difference between vengeance and revenge because the seven bowls contain God’s vengeance. During the trumpet judgements, which are redemptive, the living shall be judged during desperate circumstances which will separate the people of Earth into two groups. The sheep will embrace the testimony of the 144,000/servant prophets and worship the Creator and love one another. The goats will rebel against God’s authority and submit to Babylon’s authority out of cowardice. The contest between God’s authority and Babylon’s authority will be sharp and distinct. At first, the wicked will do whatever it takes to save themselves from suffering, by receiving the mark in order to buy and sell, but they will eventually discover that the path of least resistance leads to slavery. Their master will be the devil. There will be no justice for God’s saints during the Great Tribulation, so Jesus Himself will execute vengeance on the wicked during the final seventy days of the Great Tribulation. Jesus will repay the wicked for their predatory behavior. The third angles message (Rev. 14:9,10) warns against receiving the mark/666 for all who do shall receive God’s wrath in full strength. That wrath is contained in the seven last plagues/bowl judgement.

With regard to the seven last plagues as stated above, this is in agreement with our teaching as it is explained on pg. 839 SDA Bible commentary, vol. 7. However, this is not what is being taught in the video you sent for my viewing. Greg Cavanah (presenter) believes salvation is still available during the seven last plagues.There are other new insights presented therein, which I have never heard before. Much of which I disagree as well. However, which is most surprising is I’ve been trying to share new insights on this platform and you and the rest have been very, very, resistant to anything new. Why is that?

We've had many 'brethren' that have come with 'new light' as I tried to point out to you, and it tends to be more of private interpretation and just more than not of arguing and cause confusion than any real or better understanding. We need to come to believers with a right spirit of humbleness and helpfulness, and to share truth with each other, not bitter divisiveness and discord.

Philippians 2:3
Let nothing be done through strife or vain glory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.