Trumpets Already Sounded?

NightHawkeye

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Did you not even see this?

You can tell that the bowls are between the 6th and 7th trumpets in two ways (right off the top of my head) -

1. The 7th trumpet and the 7th bowl are identical - earthquake, hail, "it is done".
LOL Indeed, I did see it, Jen. Do you not yet realize that this alone kills your claim that all the trumpets must follow all the seals and all the bowls must follow all the trumpets? You cannot arbitrarily allow this contradiction while prohibiting all other irregularities in your desired order of events.

Please answer this one question so that the discussion can move forward. It has been presented multiple times, but you have not yet answered it.
 
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HisdaughterJen

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LOL Indeed, I did see it, Jen. Do you not yet realize that this alone kills your claim that all the trumpets must follow all the seals and all the bowls must follow all the trumpets? You cannot arbitrarily allow this contradiction while prohibiting all other irregularities in your desired order of events.

Please answer this one question so that the discussion can move forward. It has been presented multiple times, but you have not yet answered it.


The bowls CANNOT follow ALL the trumpets because the 7th bowl and the 7th trumpet are identical!

The bowls cannot follow the 7th trumpet itself because "it is done" - all that's left is Christ's destruction when he comes on the clouds.


7th trumpet:
Rev 11:18The nations were angry; and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great- and for destroying those who destroy the earth."

How is this not clear?

The order of the 7th seal is indeed:
Trumpets 1-6
Bowls 1-6
Trumpet 7/Bowl 7

Then Christ comes to destroy (and reward).

It cannot be:
Trumpets 1-7
Bowls 1-7
...because "it is done" and "the time has come to destroy" are, in your view, 6 bowls apart - even though the 7th bowl/7th trumpet are identical.

The 7th trumpet says, "the kingdoms of the world have become the Kingdom of our Lord, and of His Christ"...but you have 7 bowls where the anti-christ is still reigning and preparing/gathering armies for war AFTER that moment.
 
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JudgeEden

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Uh, no...OBVIOUSLY!

The 3 1/2 years/ 1260 days/ 42 months is actually 3 1/2 years/ 1260 days/ 42 months.

There is no Scriptural basis for substituting a day for a year.

The fact that God used all three of those ways to say exactly how much time is passing should be a major clue that He means what He says in that regard.

Rev 13:5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months.


Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.



Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months.


Rev 11:3 And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.


Uh, yes...OBVIOUSLY!

As I said in the other topic...

Numbers 14:34
"After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise."

Ezekiel 4:6
"And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year."

(EDIT: I had to add this in for anyone else who didn't see the other topic)

"Both of these scriptures was a prophecy at the time. Whenever God gives a prophecy, if there is any time frame specified at all in it, you calculate it thusly. If God says something lasts for 42 months, 3 and 1/2 years, 1260 days, or time times half a time, you calculate it thusly. It DOES NOT mean what you say it does Jen. There is no 7-Year Trib as is popularly believed. This Great Tribulation already happened.

This 5th seal you are speaking of was the result of this great tribulation. It started at 538 AD and ended 1798. What do you get if you add up 538 and 1260? You get 1798.


The year 1798 is when this great tribulation ended.
"

What really makes your theory fall flat is that it's a private interpretation. My beliefs are based on a combination of Scriptural and Historical facts.

While im at it, here's the third Trumpet.


[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]DANIEL AND REVELATION, Chapter 8, p 484-487, by Uriah Smith.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "VERSE 10. And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters. 11. And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] In the interpretation and application of this passage, we are brought to the third important event which resulted in the subversion of the Roman empire. And in finding a historical fulfilment of this third trumpet, we shall be indebted to the Notes of Dr. Albert Barnes for a few extracts. In explaining this scripture, it is necessary, as this commentator says, -[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "That there should be some chieftain or warrior who might be compared to a blazing meteor; whose course would be singularly brilliant; who would appear suddenly LIKE a blazing star, and then disappear like a star whose light was quenched in the waters. That the desolating course of this meteor would be mainly on those portions of the world which abounded with springs of water and running streams; that an effect would be produced as if those streams and fountains were made bitter; that is, that many persons would perish, and that wide desolations would be caused in the vicinity of those rivers and streams, as if a bitter and baleful star should fall into the waters, and death should spread over lands adjacent to them, and watered by them." - Notes on Revelation 8.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] It is here premised that this trumpet has allusion to the desolating wars and furious invasions of Attila against the Roman power, which he carried on at the head of his hordes of Huns. Speaking of this warrior, particularly of his personal appearance, Mr. Barnes says:-[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "In the manner of his appearance, he strongly resembled a brilliant meteor flashing in the sky. He came from the East gathering his Huns, and poured them down, as we shall see, with the rapidity of a flashing meteor, suddenly on the empire. He regarded himself also as devoted to Mars, the god of war, and was accustomed to array himself in a peculiarly brilliant manner, so that his appearance, in the language of his flatterers, was such as to dazzle the eyes of beholders."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] In speaking of the locality of the events predicted by this trumpet, Mr. Barnes has this note;[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "It is said particularly that the effect would be on 'the rivers' and on 'the fountains of waters.' If this has a literal application, or if, as was supposed in the case of the second trumpet, the language used was such as had reference to the portion of the empire that would be particularly affected by the hostile invasion, then we may suppose that this refers to those portions of the empire that abounded in rivers and streams and more particularly those in which the rivers and streams had their origin; for the effect was permanently in the 'fountains of waters.' As a matter of fact, the principal operations of Attila were on the regions of the Alps, and on the portions of the empire whence the rivers flow down into Italy. The invasion of Attila is described by Mr. Gibbon in this general language: 'The whole breadth of Europe, as it extends above five hundred miles from the Euxine to the Adriatic, was at once invaded, and occupied, and desolated, by the myriads of barbarians whom Attila led into the field.'"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "And the Name of the Star is Called Wormwood [denoting the bitter consequences]." These words - which are more intimately connected with the preceding verse, as even the punctuation in our version denotes - recall us for a moment to the character of Attila, to the misery of which he was the author or the instrument, and to the terror that was inspired by his name.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "'Total extirpation and erasure,' are terms which best denote the calamities he inflicted." He styled himself, "The Scourge of God."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "One of his lieutenants chastised and almost exterminated the Burgundians of the Rhine. They traversed, both in their march and in their return, the territories of the Franks; and they massacred their hostages as well as their captives. Two hundred young maidens were tortured with exquisite and unrelenting rage; their bodies were torn asunder by wild horses, or were crushed under the weight of rolling wagons; and their unburied limbs were abandoned on public roads, as a prey to dogs and vultures.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "It was the boast of Attila that the grass never grew on the spot which his horse had trod. The Western emperor with the senate and people of Rome, humbly and fearfully deprecated the wrath of Attila. And the concluding paragraph of the chapters which record his history, is entitled, 'Symptoms of the Decay and Ruin of the Roman Government.' 'The name of the star is called Wormwood.'" - Keith.[/FONT]
 
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HisdaughterJen

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Uh, yes...OBVIOUSLY!

As I said in the other topic...

Numbers 14:34
"After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise."

Ezekiel 4:6
"And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year."

(EDIT: I had to add this in for anyone else who didn't see the other topic)

"Both of these scriptures was a prophecy at the time. Whenever God gives a prophecy, if there is any time frame specified at all in it, you calculate it thusly. If God says something lasts for 42 months, 3 and 1/2 years, 1260 days, or time times half a time, you calculate it thusly. It DOES NOT mean what you say it does Jen. There is no 7-Year Trib as is popularly believed. This Great Tribulation already happened.

This 5th seal you are speaking of was the result of this great tribulation. It started at 538 AD and ended 1798. What do you get if you add up 538 and 1260? You get 1798.

The year 1798 is when this great tribulation ended."

What really makes your theory fall flat is that it's a private interpretation. My beliefs are based on a combination of Scriptural and Historical facts.

While im at it, here's the third Trumpet.


[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]DANIEL AND REVELATION, Chapter 8, p 484-487, by Uriah Smith.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"VERSE 10. And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters. 11. And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]In the interpretation and application of this passage, we are brought to the third important event which resulted in the subversion of the Roman empire. And in finding a historical fulfilment of this third trumpet, we shall be indebted to the Notes of Dr. Albert Barnes for a few extracts. In explaining this scripture, it is necessary, as this commentator says, -[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"That there should be some chieftain or warrior who might be compared to a blazing meteor; whose course would be singularly brilliant; who would appear suddenly LIKE a blazing star, and then disappear like a star whose light was quenched in the waters. That the desolating course of this meteor would be mainly on those portions of the world which abounded with springs of water and running streams; that an effect would be produced as if those streams and fountains were made bitter; that is, that many persons would perish, and that wide desolations would be caused in the vicinity of those rivers and streams, as if a bitter and baleful star should fall into the waters, and death should spread over lands adjacent to them, and watered by them." - Notes on Revelation 8.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]It is here premised that this trumpet has allusion to the desolating wars and furious invasions of Attila against the Roman power, which he carried on at the head of his hordes of Huns. Speaking of this warrior, particularly of his personal appearance, Mr. Barnes says:-[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"In the manner of his appearance, he strongly resembled a brilliant meteor flashing in the sky. He came from the East gathering his Huns, and poured them down, as we shall see, with the rapidity of a flashing meteor, suddenly on the empire. He regarded himself also as devoted to Mars, the god of war, and was accustomed to array himself in a peculiarly brilliant manner, so that his appearance, in the language of his flatterers, was such as to dazzle the eyes of beholders."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]In speaking of the locality of the events predicted by this trumpet, Mr. Barnes has this note;[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"It is said particularly that the effect would be on 'the rivers' and on 'the fountains of waters.' If this has a literal application, or if, as was supposed in the case of the second trumpet, the language used was such as had reference to the portion of the empire that would be particularly affected by the hostile invasion, then we may suppose that this refers to those portions of the empire that abounded in rivers and streams and more particularly those in which the rivers and streams had their origin; for the effect was permanently in the 'fountains of waters.' As a matter of fact, the principal operations of Attila were on the regions of the Alps, and on the portions of the empire whence the rivers flow down into Italy. The invasion of Attila is described by Mr. Gibbon in this general language: 'The whole breadth of Europe, as it extends above five hundred miles from the Euxine to the Adriatic, was at once invaded, and occupied, and desolated, by the myriads of barbarians whom Attila led into the field.'"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"And the Name of the Star is Called Wormwood [denoting the bitter consequences]." These words - which are more intimately connected with the preceding verse, as even the punctuation in our version denotes - recall us for a moment to the character of Attila, to the misery of which he was the author or the instrument, and to the terror that was inspired by his name.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"'Total extirpation and erasure,' are terms which best denote the calamities he inflicted." He styled himself, "The Scourge of God."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"One of his lieutenants chastised and almost exterminated the Burgundians of the Rhine. They traversed, both in their march and in their return, the territories of the Franks; and they massacred their hostages as well as their captives. Two hundred young maidens were tortured with exquisite and unrelenting rage; their bodies were torn asunder by wild horses, or were crushed under the weight of rolling wagons; and their unburied limbs were abandoned on public roads, as a prey to dogs and vultures.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"It was the boast of Attila that the grass never grew on the spot which his horse had trod. The Western emperor with the senate and people of Rome, humbly and fearfully deprecated the wrath of Attila. And the concluding paragraph of the chapters which record his history, is entitled, 'Symptoms of the Decay and Ruin of the Roman Government.' 'The name of the star is called Wormwood.'" - Keith.[/FONT]

Put down the 7th Day Adventist cultic teachings of Uriah Smith and pick up the Bible. God Himself will not mislead you.

He was clear in Ezekiel that 40 days that Ezekiel was performing a task...a forty day task - symbolizing a day for a year of their iniquity. It was the same in the Numbers passage.

Uriah Smith is misleading you into believing that you can substitute a year for a day in any old passage of Scripture that you please.

GOD is clear. He used 3 1/2 years, 42 months, 1260 days, time/times/half a time to make doubly sure that he means what He says. NOWHERE in Daniel and Revelation is there any passage where God says "a day for a year".
 
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JudgeEden

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Oh, brother. You know what, I barely even look at the names. I care about the message and how it fits way more than who's speaking it. I usually pick the shortest excerpts to post here, since people on forums dont like big walls of text. All of them happened to be from Uriah.

How about you read it instead of being blinded by bias. Whatever false doctrines you dont agree with pertaining to the SDA wont be propagated through ANY of these posts. Seriously, this is childish.

Fourth Trumpet...

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]GREAT NATIONS OF TODAY, chapter 6 & 7, p 47-60, by Alonso T. Jones.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] THE events of the First, Second, and Third Trumpets had brought the Western Empire to the brink of annihilation; and the Fourth Trumpet accomplishes its utter extinction. "And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise." Verse 12. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] This trumpet illustrates the blotting out of the Roman government. Sun, moon, and stars are evidently symbols that denote the ruling powers in the government -- its emperors, consuls, and senators. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] The last paragraph (nineteen) of the chapter of the "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire," that gives the history of Attila's invasions, and thus of the Third Trumpet, is entitled, "Symptoms of Decay and Ruin" of the Western Empire; and of the history of Genseric, "the Monarch of the Sea," the history of the great burning mountain cast into the sea, which continued longer than did the falling star burning as a lamp, -- of this history the very last words are that Genseric "beheld the final extinction of the Empire of the West." [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] Thus by the very words of the standard history itself we are introduced to the great thought of the Fourth Trumpet; and by this to that other name -- Odoacer -- which in the destruction of the Roman Empire must forever stand conspicuous with those of Alaric, Genseric, and Attila. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "In the space of twenty years since the death of Valentinian [March 16, A. D. 455], `nine emperors had successively disappeared; and the son of Orestes [Odoacer], a youth recommended only by his beauty, would be the least entitled to the notice of posterity, if his reign, which was marked by the EXTINCTION of the Roman Empire in the West, did not leave a memorable era in the history of mankind." [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "The sun was smitten." "Extinction of the Western Empire A. D. 476 or 479," is the title of paragraph thirty-one of Chap. XXXVI, of the "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire." And the record is: "Royalty was familiar to the barbarians, and the submissive people of Italy were prepared to obey without a murmur the authority which he [Odoacer] should condescend to exercise as the vicegerent of the emperor of the West. But Odoacer resolved to abolish that useless and expensive office; and such is the weight of antique prejudice that it required some boldness and penetration to discover the extreme facility of the enterprise. The unfortunate Augustulus was made the instrument of his own disgrace; and he signified his resignation to the senate; and that assembly, in their last act of obedience to a Roman prince, still affected the spirit of freedom and the forms of the constitution. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "An epistle was addressed, by their unanimous decree, to the Emperor Zeno, the son-in-law and successor of Leo, who had lately been restored, after a short rebellion, to the Byzantine throne. They solemnly disclaim the necessity or even the wish of continuing any longer the imperial succession in Italy; since in their opinion the majesty of a sole monarch is sufficient to pervade and to protect, at the same time, both the East and the West. In their own name, and in the name of the people, they consent that the seat of universal empire shall be transferred from Rome to Constantinople; and they basely renounce the right of choosing their master, the only vestige that yet remained of the authority which had given laws to the world. . . ." [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] Zeno's "vanity was gratified by the title of sole Emperor, and by the statues erected to his honor in the several quarters of Rome; he entertained a friendly, though ambiguous, correspondence with the patrician Odoacer; and he gratefully accepted the Imperial ensigns, the sacred ornaments of the throne and palace, which the barbarian was not unwilling to remove from the sight of the people." [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "The power and the glory of Rome, as bearing rule over any nation, became extinct. The name alone remained to the queen of nations. Every token of royalty disappeared from the imperial city. She who had ruled over the nations sat in the dust, like a second Babylon, and there was no throne where the Caesars had reigned. The last act of obedience to a Roman prince which that once august assembly performed, was the acceptance of the resignation of the last emperor of the West, and the abolition of the imperial succession in Italy. The sun of Rome was smitten. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "Long had that name been a terror to the nations, and identified with supreme authority in the world. Long had the emperor of Rome shone and ruled in the earth, like the sun in the firmament. His was a kingdom and dominion, great and terrible, and strong exceedingly, to which all others were subjected or subordinate. His supreme or imperial authority, had, in the decline of the empire, been greatly obscured, but till then it had never been extinguished. It had been darkened and disfigured by a great storm; eclipsed, as it were, by a mountain that burned with fire; and outshone, as it were, by a falling star, like a fiery meteor. It had survived the assaults of Goths and Vandals and Huns. Though clouded and obscured, it had never been smitten; and though its light reached but a little way, where previously it had shone over all, it had never been extinguished. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "Neither, at last, was the whole sun smitten, but `the third part.' The throne of the Caesars had for ages been the sun of the world, while other kings were designated as stars. But the imperial power had first been transferred to Constantinople by Constantine; and it was afterward divided between the East and the West. And the Eastern Empire was not yet doomed to destruction. Even the Western Empire was afterward revived; and a more modern dynasty arose to claim and maintain the title of emperor of the Romans. But, for the first time, after sudden, and violent, and distinctly marked and connected convulsions, the imperial power IN ROME, where for so long a period it had reigned triumphant, was cut off forever; and the third part of the sun was smitten. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "But though Rome itself, as an imperial city, ceased to exercise a sovereignty over any nation, yet the imperial ensigns, with the sacred ornaments of the throne and palace, were transferred to Constantinople, where Zeno reigned under the title of sole emperor. The military acclamations of the confederates of Italy saluted Odoacer with the title of king. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "A new conqueror of Italy, Theodoric, the Ostrogoth, speedily arose, who assumed the purple, and reigned by the right of conquest. `The royalty of Theodoric was proclaimed by the Goths (March 5, A. D. 493), with the tardy, reluctant, ambiguous consent of the emperor of the East.' The imperial Roman power, of which either Rome or Constantinople had been jointly or singly the seat, whether in the West or the East, was no longer recognized in Italy, and the third part of the sun was smitten, till it emitted no longer the faintest rays. The power of the Caesars was unknown in Italy, and a Gothic king reigned over Rome. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "But though the third part of the sun was smitten, and the Roman imperial power was at an end in the city of the Caesars, yet the moon and the stars still shone, or glimmered, for a little longer in the western hemisphere, even in the midst of Gothic darkness. The consulship and the senate [`the moon and the stars'] were not abolished by Theodoric. `A Gothic historian applauds the consulship of Theodoric as the height of all temporal power and greatness:' -- as the moon reigns by night, after the setting of the sun. And, instead of abolishing that office, Theodoric himself `congratulates those annual favorites of fortune, who, without the cares, enjoyed the splendor of the throne.' [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "But in their prophetic order, the consulship and the senate of Rome met their fate, though they fell not by the hands of Vandals or of Goths. The next revolution in Italy was its subjection to Belisarius, the general of Justinian, emperor of the East. He did not spare what barbarians had hallowed. `The Roman Consulship Extinguished by Justinian, A. D. 541,' is the title of the last paragraph of the fortieth chapter of Gibbon's History of the Decline and Fall of Rome. `The succession of consuls finally ceased in the thirteenth year of Justinian, whose despotic temper might be gratified by the silent extinction of a title which admonished the Romans of their ancient freedom." [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "The sun was smitten." Odoacer caused the title of emperor to cease. But one-third part only is affected -- the jurisdiction of Rome then extended over only the middle division of the empire, as ceded by Constantine to his three sons. One-third part of the moon was smitten; the effect of this political calamity had the same extent as the former. When the consulship was taken away, Rome had ceded all her territory beyond the Alps. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "The third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars. In the political firmament of the ancient world, while under the reign of imperial Rome, the emperorship, the consulate, and the senate, shone like the sun, the moon, and the stars. The history of their decline and fall is brought down till the two former were `extinguished,' in reference to Rome and Italy, which so long had ranked as the first of cities and of countries; and finally, as the Fourth Trumpet closes, we see the `extinction of that illustrious assembly,' the Roman senate. The city that had ruled the world, as if in mockery of human greatness, was conquered by the eunuch Narses, the successor of Belisarius. He defeated the Goths (A. D. 552), achieved the `conquest of Rome,' and the fate of the senate was sealed.
[/FONT]
 
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JudgeEden

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Fourth Cont...


[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "The calamities of imperial Rome, in its downfall, were told to the very last of them, till Rome was without an emperor, a consul, or a senate. `Under the Exarchs of Ravenna, Rome was degraded to the second rank.' The third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars. The race of the Caesars was not extinct with the emperors of the West. Rome, before its fall, possessed but a portion of the imperial power. Constantinople divided with it the empire of the world. And neither Goths nor Vandals lorded over that still imperial city, the emperor of which, after the first transference of the seat of empire by Constantine, often held the emperor of Rome as his nominee and vicegerent. And the fate of Constantinople was reserved till other ages, and was announced by other trumpets. Of the sun, the moon, and the stars, as yet but the third part was smitten. "The concluding words of the Fourth Trumpet imply the future restoration of the Western Empire: `The day shone not for the third part of it, and the night likewise.' In respect to civil authority, Rome became subject to Ravenna, and Italy was a conquered province of the Eastern Empire. But, as more appropriately pertaining to other prophecies, the defense of the worship of images first brought the spiritual and temporal powers of the pope and of the emperor into violent collision; and, by conferring on the pope all authority over the churches, Justinian laid his helping hand to the promotion of the papal supremacy, which afterward assumed the power of creating monarchs. In the year of our Lord 800, the pope conferred on Charlemagne the title of Emperor of the Romans." -- Keith. That title was again transferred from the king of France to the king of Germany. And by the Emperor Francis the Second even this fiction was finally and forever renounced, Aug. 6, 1806. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]CHAPTER VII. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] THERE were no fewer than eighteen distinct tribes of the barbarians who, by their active presence, were instrumental in the ruin of Western Rome.1 Of these, some, after their work of destruction was done, left the territories of the West, and established themselves elsewhere, or were lost among the other wild peoples of northern and eastern Europe or Asia. Others coalesced and the names of lesser tribes were lost under that of the predominating one. And so, when the last vestige of the Western Empire of Rome had vanished, the territory was found partitioned into exactly ten parts, occupied by exactly ten independent nations; no more, no less. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] Named in order from the northern to the southern limits of the Western Empire, these ten, as they stood in 476 at the extinction of the Empire, were as follows: -- [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]1. The Angles and Saxons in Britain. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]2. The Franks in all Gaul north and west of the River Moselle. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]3. The Alemanni in North Switzerland, Swabia, Alsace, and Lorraine. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]4. The Burgundians in west Switzerland and the valleys of the Rhone and Saone in southeast Gaul. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]5. The Visigoths in southwest Gaul and Spain. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]6. The Suevi in that part of Spain which is now Portugal. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]7. The Ostrogoths in Pannonia -- what is now Austria. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]8. The Lombards in Noricum, between the Ostrogoths and the Alemanni. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]9. The Heruli in Italy. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]10. The Vandals in North Africa, with capital at Carthage. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] The details of this anyone can trace out, any day, on any map that he will but hold before him, and mark as he reads the history of the fall of the Roman Empire. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] These ten kingdoms were first mentioned in the prophecy of Daniel, especially in that "the fourth beast, which represented Rome, was seen to have ten horns:" and these ten horns, "out of this [fourth] kingdom," are distinctly said by the angel to be "ten kings [kingdoms] that shall arise." Dan. 7:7, 24. They are referred to later, in the book of Revelation, in the description of the dragon, and also of the Beast having "seven heads and ten horns." [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] Also, in the prophecy of Daniel, it is related that there would come up among these ten another one; and that by it three of the ten would be "plucked up by the roots." Dan. 7:8, 20, 24. The three which were plucked up, were the Heruli, who occupied Italy, in 493; the Vandals, who occupied North Africa, in 534; and the Ostrogoths, who had been instrumental in rooting up the Heruli, and who occupied Italy in their place, in 538. That "other one," before whom these three were rooted up, is described as having "eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things;" and it was, and is, the papacy. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] Three taken from ten leaves seven. And these seven of the original ten kingdoms that divided Western Rome are in that territory to-day, and are the Powers of Western Europe to-day. The Saxons, the Franks, the Alemanni, the Burgundians, the Visigoths, the Suevi, and the Lombards are the powers respectively of the Britain, France, Germany (in the French language, and with the French people of to-day, the Germans are only Allemands, and Germany is only Allemagne), Switzerland, Spain, Portugal, and Italy of to-day. For after the plucking up of the third of the three kingdoms, the Lombards removed from their place on the Danube, and established their kingdom in Italy; and to a considerable portion of that country "communicated the perpetual appellation of Lombardy." In the middle ages, Lombardy "was, indeed, for a time, the name for Italy itself.' Thus the Powers of Western Europe to-day are as definitely pointed out by the prophecy as they could be without specifically naming them. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] Of these seven, some are very powerful, such as Britain, France, and Germany; while others are weak, such as Switzerland, Spain, and Portugal; while Italy stands, as it were, between strong and weak. So these seven of the original ten stand just where Daniel, from the dream that was given to Nebuchadnezzar, said they would stand. Dan. 2:40-43. They stand there in precisely the condition in which that prophecy said they would stand -- "partly strong, and partly broken," or weak. Britain, France, and Germany have spread their power over the whole world; and have so intertwined themselves in the affairs of the whole world that what touches the world touches them, and what touches them touches the world. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] Thus the first effect of the first four of the Seven Trumpets was the blotting out of the Western Empire of Rome; and the second effect was the planting of the modern nations of Western Europe, and among them the great nations of to-day. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] Next we must study the Fifth and Sixth Trumpets: and at the end of the Sixth, we shall again come face to face with these and others of the great nations of to-day. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]---------------------------------------[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Footnote #1 In alphabetical order the eighteen principal ones of these tribes are as follows: Alemanni, Alani, Angles, Burgundians, Franks, Gepidae, Heruli, Huns, Jutes, Lombards, Ostrogoths, Rugians, Saxons, Scyrri, Suevi, Thuringians, Vandals, Visigoths. [/FONT]
 
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HisdaughterJen

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Oh, brother. You know what, I barely even look at the names. I care about the message and how it fits way more than who's speaking it. I usually pick the shortest excerpts to post here, since people on forums dont like big walls of text. All of them happened to be from Uriah.

How about you read it instead of being blinded by bias. Whatever false doctrines you dont agree with pertaining to the SDA wont be propagated through ANY of these posts. Seriously, this is childish.

Fourth Trumpet...

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]GREAT NATIONS OF TODAY, chapter 6 & 7, p 47-60, by Alonso T. Jones.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]THE events of the First, Second, and Third Trumpets had brought the Western Empire to the brink of annihilation; and the Fourth Trumpet accomplishes its utter extinction. "And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise." Verse 12. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]This trumpet illustrates the blotting out of the Roman government. Sun, moon, and stars are evidently symbols that denote the ruling powers in the government -- its emperors, consuls, and senators. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The last paragraph (nineteen) of the chapter of the "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire," that gives the history of Attila's invasions, and thus of the Third Trumpet, is entitled, "Symptoms of Decay and Ruin" of the Western Empire; and of the history of Genseric, "the Monarch of the Sea," the history of the great burning mountain cast into the sea, which continued longer than did the falling star burning as a lamp, -- of this history the very last words are that Genseric "beheld the final extinction of the Empire of the West." [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Thus by the very words of the standard history itself we are introduced to the great thought of the Fourth Trumpet; and by this to that other name -- Odoacer -- which in the destruction of the Roman Empire must forever stand conspicuous with those of Alaric, Genseric, and Attila. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"In the space of twenty years since the death of Valentinian [March 16, A. D. 455], `nine emperors had successively disappeared; and the son of Orestes [Odoacer], a youth recommended only by his beauty, would be the least entitled to the notice of posterity, if his reign, which was marked by the EXTINCTION of the Roman Empire in the West, did not leave a memorable era in the history of mankind." [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"The sun was smitten." "Extinction of the Western Empire A. D. 476 or 479," is the title of paragraph thirty-one of Chap. XXXVI, of the "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire." And the record is: "Royalty was familiar to the barbarians, and the submissive people of Italy were prepared to obey without a murmur the authority which he [Odoacer] should condescend to exercise as the vicegerent of the emperor of the West. But Odoacer resolved to abolish that useless and expensive office; and such is the weight of antique prejudice that it required some boldness and penetration to discover the extreme facility of the enterprise. The unfortunate Augustulus was made the instrument of his own disgrace; and he signified his resignation to the senate; and that assembly, in their last act of obedience to a Roman prince, still affected the spirit of freedom and the forms of the constitution. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"An epistle was addressed, by their unanimous decree, to the Emperor Zeno, the son-in-law and successor of Leo, who had lately been restored, after a short rebellion, to the Byzantine throne. They solemnly disclaim the necessity or even the wish of continuing any longer the imperial succession in Italy; since in their opinion the majesty of a sole monarch is sufficient to pervade and to protect, at the same time, both the East and the West. In their own name, and in the name of the people, they consent that the seat of universal empire shall be transferred from Rome to Constantinople; and they basely renounce the right of choosing their master, the only vestige that yet remained of the authority which had given laws to the world. . . ." [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Zeno's "vanity was gratified by the title of sole Emperor, and by the statues erected to his honor in the several quarters of Rome; he entertained a friendly, though ambiguous, correspondence with the patrician Odoacer; and he gratefully accepted the Imperial ensigns, the sacred ornaments of the throne and palace, which the barbarian was not unwilling to remove from the sight of the people." [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"The power and the glory of Rome, as bearing rule over any nation, became extinct. The name alone remained to the queen of nations. Every token of royalty disappeared from the imperial city. She who had ruled over the nations sat in the dust, like a second Babylon, and there was no throne where the Caesars had reigned. The last act of obedience to a Roman prince which that once august assembly performed, was the acceptance of the resignation of the last emperor of the West, and the abolition of the imperial succession in Italy. The sun of Rome was smitten. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"Long had that name been a terror to the nations, and identified with supreme authority in the world. Long had the emperor of Rome shone and ruled in the earth, like the sun in the firmament. His was a kingdom and dominion, great and terrible, and strong exceedingly, to which all others were subjected or subordinate. His supreme or imperial authority, had, in the decline of the empire, been greatly obscured, but till then it had never been extinguished. It had been darkened and disfigured by a great storm; eclipsed, as it were, by a mountain that burned with fire; and outshone, as it were, by a falling star, like a fiery meteor. It had survived the assaults of Goths and Vandals and Huns. Though clouded and obscured, it had never been smitten; and though its light reached but a little way, where previously it had shone over all, it had never been extinguished. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"Neither, at last, was the whole sun smitten, but `the third part.' The throne of the Caesars had for ages been the sun of the world, while other kings were designated as stars. But the imperial power had first been transferred to Constantinople by Constantine; and it was afterward divided between the East and the West. And the Eastern Empire was not yet doomed to destruction. Even the Western Empire was afterward revived; and a more modern dynasty arose to claim and maintain the title of emperor of the Romans. But, for the first time, after sudden, and violent, and distinctly marked and connected convulsions, the imperial power IN ROME, where for so long a period it had reigned triumphant, was cut off forever; and the third part of the sun was smitten. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"But though Rome itself, as an imperial city, ceased to exercise a sovereignty over any nation, yet the imperial ensigns, with the sacred ornaments of the throne and palace, were transferred to Constantinople, where Zeno reigned under the title of sole emperor. The military acclamations of the confederates of Italy saluted Odoacer with the title of king. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"A new conqueror of Italy, Theodoric, the Ostrogoth, speedily arose, who assumed the purple, and reigned by the right of conquest. `The royalty of Theodoric was proclaimed by the Goths (March 5, A. D. 493), with the tardy, reluctant, ambiguous consent of the emperor of the East.' The imperial Roman power, of which either Rome or Constantinople had been jointly or singly the seat, whether in the West or the East, was no longer recognized in Italy, and the third part of the sun was smitten, till it emitted no longer the faintest rays. The power of the Caesars was unknown in Italy, and a Gothic king reigned over Rome. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"But though the third part of the sun was smitten, and the Roman imperial power was at an end in the city of the Caesars, yet the moon and the stars still shone, or glimmered, for a little longer in the western hemisphere, even in the midst of Gothic darkness. The consulship and the senate [`the moon and the stars'] were not abolished by Theodoric. `A Gothic historian applauds the consulship of Theodoric as the height of all temporal power and greatness:' -- as the moon reigns by night, after the setting of the sun. And, instead of abolishing that office, Theodoric himself `congratulates those annual favorites of fortune, who, without the cares, enjoyed the splendor of the throne.' [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"But in their prophetic order, the consulship and the senate of Rome met their fate, though they fell not by the hands of Vandals or of Goths. The next revolution in Italy was its subjection to Belisarius, the general of Justinian, emperor of the East. He did not spare what barbarians had hallowed. `The Roman Consulship Extinguished by Justinian, A. D. 541,' is the title of the last paragraph of the fortieth chapter of Gibbon's History of the Decline and Fall of Rome. `The succession of consuls finally ceased in the thirteenth year of Justinian, whose despotic temper might be gratified by the silent extinction of a title which admonished the Romans of their ancient freedom." [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"The sun was smitten." Odoacer caused the title of emperor to cease. But one-third part only is affected -- the jurisdiction of Rome then extended over only the middle division of the empire, as ceded by Constantine to his three sons. One-third part of the moon was smitten; the effect of this political calamity had the same extent as the former. When the consulship was taken away, Rome had ceded all her territory beyond the Alps. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"The third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars. In the political firmament of the ancient world, while under the reign of imperial Rome, the emperorship, the consulate, and the senate, shone like the sun, the moon, and the stars. The history of their decline and fall is brought down till the two former were `extinguished,' in reference to Rome and Italy, which so long had ranked as the first of cities and of countries; and finally, as the Fourth Trumpet closes, we see the `extinction of that illustrious assembly,' the Roman senate. The city that had ruled the world, as if in mockery of human greatness, was conquered by the eunuch Narses, the successor of Belisarius. He defeated the Goths (A. D. 552), achieved the `conquest of Rome,' and the fate of the senate was sealed. [/FONT]

I told you, the passages in Numbers and Ezekiel, that Uriah Smith uses as proof that you can substitute a year for a day willy nilly in Scripture, were specific. God actually said to Ezekiel that he had to perform that task for 40 days - one day for each year of Israel's iniquity. It was a similar thing in Numbers.

In no way did God say in Daniel or Revelation that the 3 1/2 years/42months/1260 days/ time-times-half a time can be substituted for "years". He was VERY specific, saying that specific length of time four different ways so that it was abundantly clear that He meant what He said!
 
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JudgeEden

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I told you, the passages in Numbers and Ezekiel, that Uriah Smith uses as proof that you can substitute a year for a day willy nilly in Scripture, were specific. God actually said to Ezekiel that he had to perform that task for 40 days - one day for each year of Israel's iniquity. It was a similar thing in Numbers.

In no way did God say in Daniel or Revelation that the 3 1/2 years/42months/1260 days/ time-times-half a time can be substituted for "years". He was VERY specific, saying that specific length of time four different ways so that it was abundantly clear that He meant what He said!

I want you to know I took your words very seriously. I take correction very seriously. If im wrong, I want to know and abandon whats false. However, I reread the scripture several times. It makes no sense for the 42 months to be literal. None. If this extremely microscopic teeny time period was in the past, there is NO WAY of knowing what time period. And I hardly believe it's future. Not only that, but if this Tribulation lasts only 42 LITERAL months, why does your version last over 2000 years?
 
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HisdaughterJen

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I want you to know I took your words very seriously. I take correction very seriously. If im wrong, I want to know and abandon whats false. However, I reread the scripture several times. It makes no sense for the 42 months to be literal. None. If this extremely microscopic teeny time period was in the past, there is NO WAY of knowing what time period. And I hardly believe it's future. Not only that, but if this Tribulation lasts only 42 LITERAL months, why does your version last over 2000 years?


It is the wrath of God, prior to destruction of evil, that last 42 months, not the tribulation. The tribulation is OVER when the 6th seal begins, according to Jesus.

Believe what you read only if it's found in the Bible.


Mat 24:
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Compare to:

REv 6:

12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
 
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JudgeEden

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What A LOT of people dont know, is that events like the sun being darkened, moon looking as blood, and the stars falling already happened.

It's one of the major reasons I hold to the belief that I do. Here are the accounts.

By the way, for all those concerned, I DO read scripture. I rely on it way more than any person. I am not a follower of anyone I quote here. I just think it's nice to get another's insight. And when it comes to this, I would be hard pressed to find a better example.


[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]James White, Signs of the Second Advent, p 10-16.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] The dark day of May 19, 1780. "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven." Matt.24:29.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] The tribulation here mentioned is that which was upon the church of Christ for 1260 years, during the persecuting career of the little horn of Dan.7:25. Compare with Rev.12:6; 13:5. Then, immediately after the tribulation of those days of papal persecution, the sun was to be darkened. Mark this: It does not say after those days; but after the tribulation of those days. The days reached to 1798, eighteen years this side of the dark day; but the tribulation of the days ceased before the sun was darkened in 1780. The days of tribulation were shortened for the elect's sake. Matt.24:22. The reformation under Martin Luther modified this tribulation, and continued to restrain the rage and consume the power of the papacy until 1700, since which time, according to all church history, there has been no general persecution against the church. Mark 13:24, makes this point very plain: "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened." That is, before the 1260 years should close, but after the tribulation, or martyrdom, of the church ceased, the sun was darkened. Those who would point to the future, or to the past, prior to the eighteenth century, for the darkening of the sun here mentioned, will do well to read again Mark 13:24: "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened."[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "In the month of May, 1780, there was a very terrific dark day in New England, when all faces seemed to gather blackness, and the people were filled with fear. There was great distress in the village where Edward Lee lived, - `men's hearts failing them for fear' that the Judgment day was at hand." - Tract No. 379 of Am. Tract Society. - Life of Edwards.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "The 19th day of May, 1780, was a remarkably dark day. Candles were lighted in many houses. The birds were silent, and disappeared. The fowls retired to roost. It was the general opinion that the day of Judgment was at hand. The legislature of Connecticut was in session, at Hartford, but being unable to transact business, adjourned. - President Dwight in (Ct.) Historical Collections.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "On the 19th of May, 1780, an uncommon darkness took place all over New England, and extended to Canada. It continued about fourteen hours,, or from ten o'clock in the morning till midnight. The darkness was so great that people were unable to read common print, or tell the time of the day by their watches, or to dine, or transact their ordinary business, without the light of candles. They became dull and gloomy, and some were excessively frightened. The fowls went to roost. Objects could not be distinguished but at a very little distance, and everything bore the appearance of gloom and night. Similar days have occasionally been known, though inferior in the degree or extent of their darkness. The causes of these phenomena are unknown. They certainly were not the result of eclipses." - Sear's Guide.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] The dark night of May 19, 1780. "And the moon shall not give her light." Matt.24:29.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "The night succeeding that day (May 19, 1780,) was of such pitchy darkness that, in some instances, horses could not be compelled to leave the stable when wanted for service. About midnight, the clouds were dispersed, and the moon and stars appeared with unimpaired brilliancy." - Stone's History of Beverly.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] Mr. Tenny, of Exeter, N. H., speaking of the dark day and dark night of May 19, 1780, says:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "The darkness of the following evening was probably as gross as has ever been observed since the Almighty first gave birth to light. I could not help conceiving at the time, that if every luminous body in the universe had been shrouded in impenetrable darkness, or struck out of existence, the darkness could not have been more complete. A sheet of white paper held within a few inches of the eyes was equally invisible with the blackest velvet."[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] Dr. Adams, speaking of the dark night, says:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "At nine, it was a darkness to be felt by more senses than one, as there was a strong smell of soot. Almost every one who happened to be out in the evening, got lost in going home. The darkness was as uncommon in the night as it was in the day, as the moon had fulled the day before."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]
The falling stars of Nov.13, 1833.
"And the stars shall fall from heaven." Matt.24:29.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]
"At the cry, `Look out of the window,' I sprang from a deep sleep, and with wonder saw the east lighted up with the dawn and meteors. The zenith, the north, and the west also, showed the falling stars, in the very image of one thing, and only one, I ever heard of. The stars of heaven fell unto the earth, `even as a fig-tree casteth her untimely figs when she is shaken of a mighty wind.' Rev.6:13." - Henry Dana Ward, in Journal of Commerce.
[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "The extent of the shower of 1833 was such as to cover no inconsiderable part of the earth's surface, from the middle of the Atlantic on the east, to the Pacific on the west; and from the northern coast of South America, to undefined regions among the British possessions on the north, the exhibition was visible, and everywhere presented nearly the same appearance." - Prof. Olmstead, of Yale College.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] We now inquire, Why has Christ given the church these signs in the luminaries of heaven, of his second coming? Are they given to deceive, and lead the honest Christian to look for Christ's coming, when nothing can be known of the period of that event? Preposterous! The fact that Christ foretells signs of his coming, and then states the object of those signs, that the church may know when the event is near, even at the doors, is sufficient proof that it is the design of Heaven that the church should understand the period of the second advent.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] After stating that the sun should be darkened, and that the moon should not give her light, and that the stars should fall from heaven, Christ gives the parable of the fig-tree, and makes the most distinct application of it. "Now learn a parable of the fig-tree; when his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh. So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors." Verses 32, 33. No figure should exceed the fact illustrated in a single particular. This being the case in the parable of the fig-tree, the point becomes an exceedingly strong one. No language can be more direct. No proof can be more complete. With all that certainty with which we know that summer is nigh when we see the buds and the leaves shoot forth from the trees in spring, and the earth covered with her carpet of green, may we know that Christ is at the doors.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] The proclamation of the coming and kingdom of Christ is given to the last generation. God did not send Noah to preach to the next to the last generation before the flood, but to the last. The very generation which was destroyed by the waters of the flood saw Noah build the ark, and heard his warning voice. So God has raised up men to give the solemn warning to the world at the right time to give force to the warning. And the very generation of men that live after the three great signs are fulfilled, and that hear and reject the warning message from Heaven, will drink the cup of the unmingled wrath of God. And those of this very generation who receive the message, suffer disappointments, and endure the trials of the waiting position, will witness the coming of Christ, and exclaim, "Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us." Is.25:9.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] With what emphasis our Lord gave utterance to this sentiment. It is a rebuke upon our unbelief. As we read it, God help us to believe it: "Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled." And as though this were not enough to lead us to unwavering faith, he adds these forcible words: "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."[/FONT]
 
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JudgeEden

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And for those who dont care about a Seventh Day Adventist giving you historical information, here you go.

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Uriah Smith, Daniel and Revelation, “The Seven Seals”, p 443-474.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "VERSE 12. And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13. And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bond man, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16. And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17. For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"


[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] Such are the solemn and sublime scenes that transpire under the sixth seal. And a thought well calculated to awaken in every heart an intense interest in divine things, is the consideration that we are now living amid the momentous events of this seal, as will presently be proved.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] Between the fifth and sixth seals there seems to be a sudden and entire change in the language, from the highly figurative to the strictly literal. Whatever may be the cause of this change, the change itself cannot well be denied. By no principle of interpretation can the language of the preceding seals be made to be literal, nor can the language of this any more easily be made to be figurative. We must therefore accept the change, even though we should be unable to explain it. There is a great fact, however, to which we would here call attention. It was in the period covered by this seal, that the prophetic portions of God's word were to be unsealed, and many run to and fro, or "give their sedulous attention to the understanding of these things," and thereby knowledge on this part of god's word was to be greatly increased. And we suggest that it may be for this reason that the change in the language here occurs, and that the events of this seal, transpiring at a time when these things were to be fully understood, are couched in no figures, but are laid before us in plain and unmistakable language.

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] The Great Earthquake. - The first event under this seal, perhaps the one which marks its opening, is a great earthquake. As the most probable fulfilment of this prediction, we refer to the great earthquake of Nov. 1, 1755, known as the earthquake of Lisbon. Of this earthquake, Sears, in his Wonders of the World, pp. 50, 58, 381, says:- "The great earthquake of Nov. 1, 1755, extended over a tract of at least 4,000,000 square miles. Its effects were even extended to the waters in many places, where the shocks were not perceptible. It pervaded the greater portion of Europe, Africa, and America; but its extreme violence was exercised on the southwestern part of the former. In Africa, this earthquake was felt almost as severely as it had been in Europe. A great part of Algiers was destroyed. Many houses were thrown down at Fez and Mequinez, and multitudes were buried beneath the ruins. Similar effects were realized at Morocco. Its effects were likewise left at Tangier, at Tetuan, at Funchal in the Island of Madeira. It is probable that all Africa was shaken. At the north, it extended to Norway and Sweden. Germany, Holland, France, Great Britain, and Ireland were all more or less agitated by the same great commotion of the elements. Lisbon (Portugal), previous to the earthquake in 1755, contained 150,000 inhabitants. Mr. Barretti says that 90,000 persons 'were lost on that fatal day.'"

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] On page 200 of the same work, we again read: "The terror of the people was beyond description. Nobody wept; it was beyond tears. They ran hither and thither, delirious with horror and astonishment, beating their faces and breasts, crying, 'Misericordia; the world's at an end!" Mothers forgot their children, and ran about loaded with crucifixed images. Unfortunately, many ran to the churches for protection; but in vain was the sacrament exposed; in vain did the poor creatures embrace the altars; images, priests, and people were buried in one common ruin."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]
The Encyclopedia Americana states that this earthquake extended also to Greenland, and of its effects upon the city of Lisbon further says: "The city then contained about 150,000 inhabitants. The shock was instantly followed by the fall of every church and convent, almost all the large public buildings, and more than one fourth of the houses. In about two hours after the shock, fires broke out in different quarters, and raged with such violence for the space of nearly three days that the city was completely desolated. The earthquake happened on a holy day, when the churches and convents were full of people, very few of whom escaped."

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] Sir Charles Lyell gives the following graphic description of this remarkable phenomenon:-[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "In no part of the volcanic region of southern Europe has so tremendous an earthquake occurred in modern times as that which began on the 1st of November, 1755, at Lisbon. A sound of thunder was heard underground, and immediately afterward a violent shock threw down the greater part of that city. In the course of about six minutes, sixty thousand persons perished. The sea first retired, and laid the bar dry; it then rolled in, rising fifty feet above its ordinary level. The mountains of Arrabida, Estrella, Julio, Marvan, and Cintra, being some of the largest in Portugal, were impetuously shaken, as it were from their very foundations; and some of them opened at their summits, which were split and rent in a wonderful manner, huge masses of them being thrown down into the adjacent valleys. Flames are related to have issued from these mountains, which are supposed to have been electric; they are also said to have smoked; but vast clouds of dust may have given rise to this appearance.

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "The most extraordinary circumstance which occurred at Lisbon during the catastrophe, was the subsidence of the new quay, built entirely of marble, at an immense expense. A great concourse of people had collected there for safety, as a spot where they might be beyond the reach of falling ruins; but suddenly the quay sunk down with all the people on it and not one of the dead bodies ever floated to the surface. A great number of boats and small vessels anchored near it, all full of people, were swallowed up as in a whirlpool. No fragments of these wrecks ever rose again to the surface, and the water in the place where the quay had stood is stated, in many accounts, to be unfathomable; but Whitehurst says he ascertained it to be one hundred fathoms.

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "In this case we must either suppose that a certain tract sunk down into a subterranean hollow, which would cause a 'fault' in the strata to the depth of six hundred feet, or we may infer, as some have done, from the entire disappearance of the substances engulfed, that a chasm opened and closed again. Yet in adopting this latter hypothesis, we must suppose that the upper part of the chasm, to the depth of one hundred fathoms, remained open after the shock. According to the observations made at Lisbon in 1837 by Mr. Sharpe, the destroying effects of this earthquake were confined to the tertiary strata, and were most violent on the blue clay, on which the lower part of the city is constructed. Not a building, he says, on the secondary limestone or the basalt was injured.

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "The great area over which this Lisbon earthquake extended is very remarkable. The movement was most violent in Spain, Portugal, and the north of Africa; but nearly the whole of Europe, and even the West Indies, felt the shock on the same day. A seaport called St. Ubes, about twenty miles south of Lisbon, was engulfed. At Algiers and Fez in Africa, the agitation of the earth was equally violent, and at the distance of eight leagues from Morocco, a village, with the inhabitants to the number of about eight or ten thousand persons, together with all their cattle, was swallowed up. Soon after, the earth closed again over them.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "The shock was felt at sea, on the deck of a ship to the west of Lisbon, and produced very much the same sensation as on dry land. Off St. Lucas, the captain of the ship 'Nancy' felt his vessel shaken so violently that he thought she had struck the ground, but, on heaving the lead, found a great depth of water. Captain Clark, from Denia, in latitude 36° 24' N., between nine and ten in the morning, had his ship shaken and strained as if she had struck upon a rock. Another ship, forty leagues west of St. Vincent, experienced so violent a concussion that the men were thrown a foot and a half perpendicularly up from the deck. In Antigua and Barbados, as also in Norway, Sweden, Germany, Holland, Corsica, Switzerland, and Italy, tremors and slight oscillations of the ground were felt.

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "The agitation of lakes, rivers, and springs in Great Britain was remarkable. At Loch Lomond, in Scotland, for example, the water, without the least apparent cause, rose against its banks, and then subsided below its usual level. The greatest perpendicular height of this swell was two feet four inches. It is said that the movement of this earthquake was undulatory, and that it traveled at the rate of twenty miles a minute. A great wave swept over the coast of Spain, and is said to have been sixty feet high at Cadiz. At Tangier, in Africa, it rose and fell eighteen times on the coast; at Funchal, in Madeira, it rose full fifteen feet perpendicular above high-water mark, although the tide, which ebbs and flows there seven feet, was then at half ebb. Besides entering the city and committing great havoc, it overflowed other seaports in the island. At Kinsale, in Ireland, a body of water rushed into the harbor, whirled round several vessels, and poured into the market-place.

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "It was before stated that the sea first retired at Lisbon; and this retreat of the ocean from the shore at the commencement of an earthquake, and its subsequent return in a violent wave, is a common occurrence. In order to account for the phenomenon, Mitchell imagines a subsidence at the bottom of the sea from the giving way of the roof of some cavity, in consequence of a vacuum produced by the condensation of steam. Such condensation, he observes, might be the first effect of the introduction of a large body of water into fissures and cavities already filled with steam, before there had been sufficient time for the heat of the incandescent lava to turn so large a supply of water into steam, which, being soon accomplished, causes a greater explosion." - Library of Choice Literature, Vol. VII, pp. 162,163.

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] If the reader will look on his atlas at the countries above mentioned, he will see how large a portion of the earth's surface was agitated by this awful convulsion. Other earthquakes may have been as severe in particular localities, but no other one of which we have any record, combining so great an extent with such a degree of severity, has ever been felt on this earth. It certainly supplies all the conditions necessary to constitute it a fitting event to mark the opening of the seal.[/FONT]
 
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JudgeEden

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It was too big to fit in one post, so here's the rest.


[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The Darkening of the Sun. - Following the earthquake, it is announced that "the sun became black as sackcloth of hair." This portion of the prediction has also been fulfilled. Into a detailed account of the wonderful darkening of the sun, May 19, 1780, we need not here enter. Most persons of general reading, it is presumed, have seen some account of it. The following detached declarations from different authorities will give an idea of its nature:-[/FONT] [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "The dark day of Northern America was one of those wonderful phenomena of nature which will always be read of with interest, but which philosophy is at a loss to explain." - Herschel.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]
"In the month of May, 1780, there was a terrific dark day in New England, when 'all faces seemed to gather blackness,' and the people were filled with fear. There was great distress in the village where Edward Lee lived, 'men's hearts failing them for fear' that the Judgment-day was at hand; and the neighbors all flocked around the holy man," who "spent the gloomy hours in earnest prayer for the distressed multitude." - Tract No. 379, American Tract Society; Life of Edward Lee.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "Candles were lighted in many houses. Birds were silent and disappeared. Fowls retired to roost. It was the general opinion that the day of Judgment was at hand." - President Dwight, in Connecticut Historical Collections.

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "The darkness was such as to occasion farmers to leave their work in the field, and retire to their dwellings. Lights became necessary to the transaction of business within doors. The darkness continued through the day." - Gage's History of Rowley, Mass. "The [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crew as at daybreak, and everything bore the appearance of gloom of night. The alarm produced by this unusual aspect of the heavens was very great." - Portsmouth Journal, May 20, 1843.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]
"It was midnight darkness at noonday. . . . Thousands of people who could not account for it from natural causes, were greatly terrified; and indeed, it cast a universal gloom on the earth. The frogs and night-hawks began their notes." - Dr. Adams.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "Similar days have occasionally been known, though inferior in the degree or extent of their darkness. The causes of these phenomena are unknown. They certainly were not the result of eclipses." - Sear's Guide to Knowledge.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "Almost, if not altogether alone, as the most mysterious and yet unexplained phenomenon of its kind in nature's diversified range of events, during the last century, stands the dark day of May 19th, 1780, - a most unaccountable darkening of the whole visible heavens and atmosphere in New England, - which brought intense alarm and distress to multitudes of minds, as well as dismay to the brute creation, the fowls fleeing, bewildered, to their roosts, and the birds to their nests, and the cattle returning to their stalls. Indeed, thousands of the good people of that day became fully convinced that the end of all things terrestrial had come....The extent of this darkness was also very remarkable. It was observed at the most easterly regions of New England; westward to the farthest parts of Connecticut, and at Albany; to the southward, it was observed all along the seacoast; and to the north, as far as the American settlements extended. It probably far exceeded these boundaries, but the exact limits were never positively known." - Our First Century, by R. M. Devens, pp. 89, 90....


[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] The Moon Became As Blood - The darkness of the following night, May 19, 1780, was as unnatural as that of the day had been.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "The darkness of the following evening was probably as gross as has ever been observed since the Almighty fiat gave birth to light. I could not help conceiving at the time that if every luminous body in the universe had been shrouded in impenetrable darkness, or struck out of existence, the darkness could not have been more complete. A sheet of white paper held within a few inches of the eyes, was equally invisible with the blackest velvet." - Mr. Tenney, of Exeter, N.H.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] Dr. Adams, already quoted, wrote concerning the night following the dark day:-[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "Almost every one who happened to be out in the evening got lost in going home. The darkness was as uncommon in the night as it was in the day, as the moon had fulled the day before."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] This statement respecting the phase of the moon proves the impossibility of an eclipse of the sun at that time.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] And whenever on this memorable night the moon did appear, as at certain times it did, it had, according to this prophecy, the appearance of blood.


[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] And the Stars of Heaven Fell. - The voice of history still is, Fulfilled! Being a much later event than the darkening of the sun, there are multitudes in whose memories it is as fresh as if it were but yesterday. We refer to the great meteoric shower of Nov. 13, 1833. On this point a few extracts will suffice.

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "At the cry, 'Look out of the window,' I sprang from a deep sleep, and with wonder saw the east lighted up with the dawn and meteors. . . . I called to my wife to behold; and while robing, she exclaimed, 'See how the stars fall!' I replied, 'That is the wonder;' and we felt in our hearts that it was a sign of the last days. For truly 'the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.' Rev.6:13. This language of the prophet has always been received as metaphorical. Yesterday it was literally fulfilled. The ancients understood by aster in Greek, and stella in Latin, the smaller lights of heaven. The refinement of modern astronomy has made distinctions between stars of heaven and meteors of heaven. Therefore the idea of the prophet, as it is expressed in the original Greek, was literally fulfilled in the phenomenon of yesterday, so as no man before yesterday had conceived to be possible that it should be fulfilled. The immense size and distance of the planets and fixed stars forbid the idea of their falling unto the earth. Larger bodies cannot fall in myriads unto a smaller body; and most of the planets and all the fixed stars are many times larger than our earth; but these fell toward the earth. And how did they fall? Neither myself nor one of the family heard any report; and were I to hunt through nature for a simile, I could not find one so apt, to illustrate the appearance of the heavens, as that which St. John uses in the prophecy before quoted: 'The stars of heaven fell unto the earth.' They were not sheets, or flakes, or drops of fire; but they were what the world understands by falling stars; and one speaking to his fellow, in the midst of the scene, would say, 'See how the stars fall!' And he who heard would not stop to correct the astronomy of the speaker, any more than he would reply, 'The sun does not move,' to one who should tell him, 'The sun is rising.' The stars fell 'even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.' Here is the exactness of the prophet. The falling stars did not come as if from several trees shaken, but from one. Those which appeared in the east fell toward the east; those which appeared in the north fell toward the north; those which appeared in the west fell toward the west; and those which appeared in the south (for I went out of my residence into the park), fell toward the south. And they fell not as ripe fruit falls; far from it; but they flew, they were cast, like the unripe, which at first refuses to leave the branch, and when, under a violent pressure, it does break its hold, it flies swiftly, straight off, descending; and in the multitude falling, some cross the track of others, as they are thrown with more or less force, but each one falls on its own side of the tree." - New York Journal of Commerce, Nov. 14, 1833.

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "Extensive and magnificent showers of shooting stars have been known to occur at various places in modern times; but the most universal and wonderful which has ever been recorded, is that of the 13th of November, 1833, the whole firmament, over all the United States, being then, for hours, in fiery commotion. No celestial phenomenon has ever occurred in this country since its first settlement, which was viewed with such intense admiration by one class in the community, or with so much dread and alarm by another....During the three hours of its continuance, the day of judgment was believed to be only waiting for sunrise." - Our First Century, p. 329.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "Arago computes that not less than two hundred and forty thousand meteors were at the same time visible above the horizon of Boston." And of the display at Niagara it is said that "no spectacle so terribly grand and sublime was ever before beheld by man as that of the firmament descending in fiery torrents over the dark and roaring cataract." - Id., ib.
[/FONT]
 
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JudgeEden

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Sorry about the triple post, it was STILL too big.

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] And the Heaven Departed as Scroll. - In this event our minds are turned to the future. From looking at the past, and beholding the word of God fulfilled, we are now called to look at events in the future, which are no less sure to come. Here is our position, unmistakably defined. We stand between the 13th and 14th verses of this chapter. We wait for the heavens to depart as a scroll when it is rolled together. And these are times of unparalleled solemnity and importance; for we know not how near we may be to the fulfilment of these things.

[/FONT] [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] This departing of the heavens is included in what the evangelists call, in the same series of events, the shaking of the powers of the heavens. Other scriptures give us further particulars concerning this prediction. From Heb.12:25-27; Joel3:16; Jer.25:30-33; Rev.16:17, we learn that it is the voice of God, as he speaks in terrible majesty from his throne in heaven, that causes this fearful commotion in earth and sky. Once the Lord spoke, when with an audible voice he declared to his creatures the precepts of his eternal law, and the earth shook. He is to speak again, and not only the earth will shake, but the heavens also. Then will the earth "reel to and fro like a drunkard;" it will be "dissolved" and "utterly broken down" (Isaiah 24); mountains will move from their firm bases; islands will suddenly change their location in the midst of the sea; from the level plain will arise the precipitous mountain; rocks will thrust up their ragged forms from earth's broken surface; and while the voice of God is reverberating through the earth, the direst confusion will reign over the face of nature.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] To show that this is no mere conception of the imagination, the reader is requested to mark the exact phraseology which some of the prophets have used in reference to this time. Isaiah (24:19,20) says: "The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again." Jeremiah (4:23-27) in thrilling language describes the scene as follows: "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills move lightly. I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled....For thus hath the Lord said, The whole land shall be desolate." (See also the scriptures referred to above.)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] Then will the world's dream of carnal security be effectually broken. Kings, who, intoxicated with their own earthly authority, have never dreamed of a higher power than themselves, now realize that there is One who reigns King of kings; and the great men behold the vanity of all earthly pomp, for there is a greatness above that of earth; and the rich men throw their silver and gold to the moles and bats, for it cannot save them in that day; and the chief captains forget their little brief authority, and the mighty men their might; and every bondman who is in the still worse bondage of sin, and every freeman, - all classes of the wicked, from the highest to the lowest, - join in the general wail of consternation and despair. They who never prayed to Him whose arm could bring salvation, now raise an agonizing prayer to rocks and mountains to bury them forever from the sight of Him whose presence brings to them destruction. Fain would they now avoid reaping what they have sown by a life of lust and sin. Fain would they now shun the fearful treasure of wrath which they have been heaping up for themselves against this day. Fain would they bury themselves and their catalogue of crimes in everlasting darkness. And so they fly to the rocks, caves, caverns, and fissures, which the broken surface of the earth now presents before them. But it is too late. They cannot conceal their guilt, nor escape the long-delayed vengeance.

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "It will be in vain to call,[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] Rocks and mountains on us fall;[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] For His hand will find out all,[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] in that day."[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] The day which they thought never would come, has at last taken them as in a snare; and the involuntary language of their anguished hearts is, "The great day of his wrath is come, and who shall be able to stand?" Before it is called out by the fearful scenes of the time, we pray you, reader, give your most serious and candid attention to this subject.

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] Many now affect to despise the institution of prayer; but at one time or another all men will pray. Those who will not now pray to God in penitence, will then pray to the rocks and mountains in despair; and this will be the largest prayer-meeting ever held. As you read these lines, think whether you would like to have a part therein:-

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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] Ah! better far[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] To cease the unequal war,[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] While pardon, hope, and peace may yet be found;[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] Nor longer rush upon the embossed shield[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] Of the Almighty, but repentant yield,[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] And all your weapons of rebellion ground.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] Better pray now in love, than pray ere long in fear.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] Call ye upon him, while he waits to hear;[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] So in the coming end,[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] When down the parted sky[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] The angelic hosts attend[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] The Lord of heaven, most high,[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] Before whose face the solid earth is rent,[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] You may behold him a friend omnipotent,[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] And safely rest beneath his sheltering wings[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] Amid the ruin of all earthly things.[/FONT]
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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HisdaughterJen

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The bowls CANNOT follow ALL the trumpets because the 7th bowl and the 7th trumpet are identical!

The bowls cannot follow the 7th trumpet itself because "it is done" - all that's left is Christ's destruction when he comes on the clouds.


7th trumpet:
Rev 11:18The nations were angry; and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great- and for destroying those who destroy the earth."

How is this not clear?

The order of the 7th seal is indeed:
Trumpets 1-6
Bowls 1-6
Trumpet 7/Bowl 7

Then Christ comes to destroy (and reward).

It cannot be:
Trumpets 1-7
Bowls 1-7
...because "it is done" and "the time has come to destroy" are, in your view, 6 bowls apart - even though the 7th bowl/7th trumpet are identical.

The 7th trumpet says, "the kingdoms of the world have become the Kingdom of our Lord, and of His Christ"...but you have 7 bowls where the anti-christ is still reigning and preparing/gathering armies for war AFTER that moment.

Requoting post #22 for NightHawkeye who has yet to respond...
 
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HisdaughterJen

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Do you think the point of Revelations was so we can try and figure out the order of how everything is going to happen? Or to build our "Revelation timelines" that shows the timeline of the end? Or when the tribulation starts and when it ends and what time in the middle this happens or that?

No. Imagine if the Bible didn't have the Revelation to John. Revelation is the description of the last 3000 years before all is set right again. The entire collection of books (the Bible) describes just about everything that is set forth in Revelation. Revelation is like the "test" at the end to see if you read the whole book. People won't get it unless they take in the Law, the Prophets, the Psalms and the New testament before reading and understanding Revelation.

That's one way that I see it.

The timeline is very, very clear in Revelation.
 
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Critias

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No. Imagine if the Bible didn't have the Revelation to John. Revelation is the description of the last 3000 years before all is set right again. The entire collection of books (the Bible) describes just about everything that is set forth in Revelation. Revelation is like the "test" at the end to see if you read the whole book. People won't get it unless they take in the Law, the Prophets, the Psalms and the New testament before reading and understanding Revelation.

That's one way that I see it.

The timeline is very, very clear in Revelation.

I wasn't suggesting that Revelations should be removed. Rather speaking about how much time we put in to try and figure it all out, each detail of what means what, when it happens, who it is, etc. Not to mention all the "in-fighting" that occurs when each presents their "interpretation" of what they believe will happen.

I can see God saying "they are missing the point". But, that is what we do, miss the point about what God says to us and wants from us. We need to know everything instead of letting go and trusting God. Nothing has changed since Adam & Eve in our human nature.
 
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