Transgender "Inclusive"Language:Where does it end and begin?

[razzelflabben]

I'm sure she and her kids can't wait for your adjudication on what they should call each other

why the venom? Why so flaming? I don't care what thy call each other, but let me tell you a little story. 5 years ago, on father's day weekend, our son suddenly died in a freak accident. For our family, father's day is a very big deal and one with very serious pains for my husband, the father of his dead son. See, father's day doesn't have the same pains for me as it does for my husband, we both grieve deeply on that day, but for my husband, the reality is harsher than any other day of the year. Father's day is the reminder of all that he misses out on as a father of our son. So don't tell me that it isn't a big deal. I could never take the place of my kids father, not because of gender or sexual organs, but because they only need one father and they have one in my husband.

As I said, "such as"?

I answered this when you asked, I really think you need to set down your anger before it gets the better of you.

 

[Red Fox]

As a non-Christian, I must say that I am rather disappointed at some of the attitudes of many Christians in this thread. I think they are setting a very poor example in the name of Christ. I thought Christians were suppose to do whatever they do, whether in word or deed, in Jesus' name (Colossians 3:17). And I am having a hard time seeing love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control (Galatians 5:22-23) in many of these posts. But I am seeing a lot of discord and dissension (Galatians 5:19-21) in this thread, which is completely opposite of how Christians are suppose to behave and how they are suppose to treat one another. Christians are not suppose to be conceited, provoke or envy each other (Galatians 5:25-26). Maybe these Christians do not realize that what they say and how they behave can have an impact and an influence on the people around them. Cristians do actually have the power to either draw people closer to Christ or push them further away from Him.

 

[SnowyMacie]

you really need to learn to read for comprehension. I said nothing at all about being upset, I said I asked why Jenner was celebrating being a father if he/she was a mother all this time.

Because last time I checked, Caitlyn Jenner provided the sperm for those children and thus is their father...regardless of her current sex, and also last time I checked that's what makes someone the father...those male sex cells. I watched her Arthur Ashe Award acceptance speech and she referred to herself as their father, she doesn't see herself as her kid's mother because she's not their mother. That's the same for others trasgenders that I've talked to, they don't change their relationship with their kids.

 

[Armoured]

Because last time I checked, Caitlyn Jenner provided the sperm for those children and thus is their father...regardless of her current sex, and also last time I checked that's what makes someone the father...those male sex cells. I watched her Arthur Ashe Award acceptance speech and she referred to herself as their father, she doesn't see herself as her kid's mother because she's not their mother. That's the same for others trasgenders that I've talked to, they don't change their relationship with their kids.

I hadn't thought of it like that, but when you put it that way, it's pretty simple.

 

[razzelflabben]

As a non-Christian, I must say that I am rather disappointed at some of the attitudes of many Christians in this thread. I think they are setting a very poor example in the name of Christ. I thought Christians were suppose to do whatever they do, whether in word or deed, in Jesus' name (Colossians 3:17). And I am having a hard time seeing love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control (Galatians 5:22-23) in many of these posts. But I am seeing a lot of discord and dissension (Galatians 5:19-21) in this thread, which is completely opposite of how Christians are suppose to behave and how they are suppose to treat one another. Christians are not suppose to be conceited, provoke or envy each other (Galatians 5:25-26). Maybe these Christians do not realize that what they say and how they behave can have an impact and an influence on the people around them. Cristians do actually have the power to either draw people closer to Christ or push them further away from Him.

amen...well said. One word of caution though, the believer is also suppose to speak the truth in Love. Today, the world is trying to convince people that disagreements, or uncomely truths are not Love, when in fact, if they are offered with the intent of reconciliation, they are 100% Love. Not suggesting you didn't understand that, but suggesting your post was not clear on that issue and the world is trying hard to convince people otherwise.

 

[razzelflabben]

Because last time I checked, Caitlyn Jenner provided the sperm for those children and thus is their father..

so now we are redefining father? Why? Why do we need to redefine words? Or are you suggesting that we can be both male and female which leads to all kinds of depravity and would explain why Jenner hasn't yet removed certain sexual organs. Hum....not sure which you are going with here, but neither sounds very logical, sane, or otherwise wise.

regardless of her current sex, and also last time I checked that's what makes someone the father...those male sex cells.

wow, so a step father isn't a father? How many times does our society (forget scripture at the moment) say that a father isn't who donates DNA, but rather the father is the one who is there through thick and thin, nurturing and teaching the ways and truths of men. Hum...so now your telling us that society has had it wrong all this time, that a father is just a sperm bank and nothing more. Sorry, but I personally find that idea very sad and disturbing, and studies show that kids need both a mother and father figure to be well rounded individuals, so even that suggests your wrong.

I watched her Arthur Ashe Award acceptance speech and she referred to herself as their father, she doesn't see herself as her kid's mother because she's not their mother. That's the same for others trasgenders that I've talked to, they don't change their relationship with their kids.

Now, this brings up another issue...if transgenders insist (and so far I haven't found one that hasn't) insists on proper "pronouns" how is father a proper name for a woman? Remember the OP is asking a similar question.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

not sure I should get involved in the discussion, but on father's day, there was a big story about Jenner throwing a father's day party for his/her children (and himself/herself/itself) I asked the question then why he/she would throw a fathers day party if he was their mother all these years. No one could answer....I have learned a lot about the transgender issue over the last few months and what I have learned should scare most people with any kind of sense.

The bolded part communicates such a profound sense of disdain and loathing that I'm not even sure you are interested in learning anything about "the transgender issue".

I do not know Caitlyn Jenner. I know of her, of course, but that's about it. (I'm not really interested in her or her extended family, to be frank.) So honestly, I don't know why she continues to celebrate father's day, and any speculations on my part would ultimately be just guess work.
The REAL question here is, though, why you seem to regard her as representative of all transgendered people. She's not.

It's as if I pointed to Britney Spears shaving her head and then wondering why straight white females habitually do such a thing to themselves when they're having a hard time.

 

[Armoured]

so now we are redefining father? Why? Why do we need to redefine words? Or are you suggesting that we can be both male and female which leads to all kinds of depravity and would explain why Jenner hasn't yet removed certain sexual organs. Hum....not sure which you are going with here, but neither sounds very logical, sane, or otherwise wise. wow, so a step father isn't a father? How many times does our society (forget scripture at the moment) say that a father isn't who donates DNA, but rather the father is the one who is there through thick and thin, nurturing and teaching the ways and truths of men. Hum...so now your telling us that society has had it wrong all this time, that a father is just a sperm bank and nothing more. Sorry, but I personally find that idea very sad and disturbing, and studies show that kids need both a mother and father figure to be well rounded individuals, so even that suggests your wrong. Now, this brings up another issue...if transgenders insist (and so far I haven't found one that hasn't) insists on proper "pronouns" how is father a proper name for a woman? Remember the OP is asking a similar question.

providing the sperm is a redefinition of father? I sort of thought that was the original definition

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Just some random speculation on the Jenner question:

IIRC, all of Jenner's children were at the very least into their teens before she even started her transition, and thus their familiar bond was created around his male identity. Of course, it'd be possible for them to adapt and redefine their relationship, but it's not as if Caitlyn and her children were required to do so at all costs.

 

[razzelflabben]

Just some random speculation on the Jenner question:

IIRC, all of Jenner's children were at the very least into their teens before she even started her transition, and thus their familiar bond was created around his male identity. Of course, it'd be possible for them to adapt and redefine their relationship, but it's not as if Caitlyn and her children were required to do so at all costs.

but the question remains....Jenner was the one who threw the party, if Jenner wanted to help the kids understand the transition, why not throw a mother's day party rather than a father's day party?

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

excuse me....I have been told innumerable times that we are to use proper pronouns when addressing transgender people, in fact, I have been told that I can't even say transgender people....so I try to cover every possible and you call me on disdain and loathing...how out of control can this get?! what makes you think I do? Your even reaming me on using pronouns the transgender community demands I use. geesh. wow, so out of line for what I said and asked...out of control...not doing this, or else it will turn ugly...

"It" is not commonly used to describe a person. The only context where I've heard it used to describe another is in order to belittle and demean trans*-people.
Heck, even genderqueer people who reject the binary scheme do not refer to themselves or each other as "it".

 

[razzelflabben]

"It" is not commonly used to describe a person. The only context where I've heard it used to describe another is in order to belittle and demean trans*-people.
Heck, even genderqueer people who reject the binary scheme do not refer to themselves or each other as "it".

I have had transgenders in the community insist on non gender or gender neutral pronouns...it is a gender neutral pronoun...if you all don't like it, don't demand it then cry when it is used.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

but the question remains....Jenner was the one who threw the party, if Jenner wanted to help the kids understand the transition, why not throw a mother's day party rather than a father's day party?

And the question remains: why should any of this matter?
You say you do not see Jenner as representing trans*-people, and yet you keep insisting that the answer to your question somehow reveals some deep and universal truth about "the transgender issue". It does not.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

I have had transgenders in the community insist on non gender or gender neutral pronouns...it is a gender neutral pronoun...if you all don't like it, don't demand it then cry when it is used.

Playing the innocent, are we?
In Caitlyn Jenner's case, the pronoun she prefers is commonly known - even to those who do not follow celebrity gossip like myself. You weren't covering all of your bases. You were expressing your disgust for people like her, and now refuse to man up and stand by that poor choice of words.

 

[Cute Tink]

It should be common sense that therapy is better than colluding with Gender Identity Disorder, and certainly preferable to self mutilation.

No then. Your claim of common sense is an acknowledgement that you have just your opinion.

GID is classified as a medical disorder by the ICD-10 CM[7] and DSM-5 (called gender dysphoria).[8

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder

Replacing “disorder” with “dysphoria” in thediagnostic label is not only more appropriate and consistent with familiar clinical sexology terminology,it also removes the connotation that the patient is “disordered.”

DSM 5 fact sheet.

Gender Dysphoria is not a mental illness. If you have read the DSM 5, you would realize that. Read starting at page 451.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Okay, just your own words, then.

according to the story, Jenner was the one who threw the party, not the family. everyone who has ever struggled with identity should care. The whole issue is about identity of one kind or another. That makes it relevant to everyone who has ever struggled with identity, which is pretty much so everyone.

So, Jenner's behaviour supposedly reflects upon - everyone?
Perhaps Caitlyn and the Kardashian clan would be flattered to find that somebody thinks they've got such a huge significance to society at large, but at the end of the day, they're just some random people who chose to celebrate father's day even though the father in question has since transitioned from male to female. I do not know their reasons and frankly, it does not matter.

as to whose business it is, if it isn't anyone elses business, why was it in the news? See, the moment he/she/it became a celebrity, it became everyones business whether that is how it should be or not.

Which brings me back to Britney Spears's shaved head and what that signifies for straight white females.
Nothing.
It signifies nothing.

oh, you don't want to know...the things I have seen and heard out of the transgender community the last couple of weeks would make you sick to your stomach and get me kicked off the forum just for speaking about it. In addition to that, I have evidence that at least some of it is demonic in nature.

And this is the part where it all veers off from the off-handedly insulting into paranoid-delusional territory.
No, I stand corrected. You aren't out to insult and belittle. You really do see the transgender community as some sort of demonic conspiracy attacking society, don't you?

 

[Cute Tink]

but, if there is really a difference that is internal, that is not just based on physical sexual organs, then the kids would have no problem with celebrating mothers day instead of fathers day and since Jenner is trying to present a female personnel, seems to me that celebrating fathers day is just confusing the kids more. Point being...if this is a matter of an inward conflict, then straighten out the conflict rather than making more confusion for everyone.

My kids call me mom and we celebrate Mother's Day.

As I said, I have learned a lot in the last little bit and it is very very disturbing.

I'm sure.

 

[Cute Tink]

in fact, I have been told that I can't even say transgender people

That's actually not true. I suggested that calling us "transgenders" was improper English, nothing more.

 

[Cute Tink]

but the question remains....Jenner was the one who threw the party, if Jenner wanted to help the kids understand the transition, why not throw a mother's day party rather than a father's day party?

Because that's how she wants to handle it. It is not a reflection on the trans community. Jenner's party was about her, not all transgender people.

 

[Cute Tink]