There is no Hell (Moved)

[Der Alte]

But you keep forgetting this is still a Revelation that is being given to us. This is still future.
He's just reiterating what will happen at judgement day.
shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Again, these sinners are thrown in at judgement day.
If we go by your understanding than this verse in this same chapter wouldn't make sense.
Revelation 21:7 "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son."
According to you since there is no more death after those verses than everyone that's saved will have already overcometh by then as well. Only that isn't what's stated. We see that it states "He that overcometh shall" meaning this is still a Revelation being given to us of "what will happen". Are there still people trying to overcome after Judgement day since verse this verse takes place after chapter 20? Of course not. Simply meaning no one has overcometh yet. And no one has died the second death yet. We have to read that in that manner.
Revelation 21:7 "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Revelation 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
Again, no one has overcometh yet just as 21:7 states and no one has died the second death as verse 8 states -
Again, verses 7 and 8 are reiterating what "will happen" at judgement day.

Have you taken tap dancing lessons? You have tap danced all around this passage. Vs. 7 does not say no one has overcome only that some still need to. And after all this there are still 8 groups of sinners thrown into the lake of fire and it is still called the second death. And again if there is no more death after vs. 4 these 8 groups do not die.
Now fast forward to chap. 22:11

Revelation 22:11
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.​

Vs. 11, ten more vss. the end. No more death, no more salvation only "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still."

 

[JulieB67]

You have tap danced all around this passage.

Again, your reasoning and understanding makes no sense. Just because it mentions there will be no more death does not mean people will still be thrown into the LOF after Judgement Day. Again those verses are stating what "will" happen.

And again if there is no more death after vs. 4 these 8 groups do not die.

You clearly do not understand the context of these verses. These people will die on Judgement day. Just because it states that there is no more death in verse 4 does not mean Christ can't state what "will happen" .The simple understanding of what he states in those 2 verses is that he who overcomes shall inherit all things. He who doesn't shall have their part in the LOF. Both of those things happen at Judgement. He is just stating the facts.

and it is still called the second death.

It's still called the second death because that's what it is and that happens at Judgement Day. That is final. These group of sinners in verse 8 shall have their part in the LOF on Judgement Day. It's not that hard to understand. As I said before, it's just reiterating what will happen.

"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still."

Again, this is a Revelation to us what will happen. And these are warnings to whomever reads this Revelation.

 

[Der Alte]

Again, your reasoning and understanding makes no sense. Just because it mentions there will be no more death does not mean people will still be thrown into the LOF after Judgement Day. Again those verses are stating what "will" happen.
You clearly do not understand the context of these verses. These people will die on Judgement day. Just because it states that there is no more death in verse 4 does not mean Christ can't state what "will happen" .The simple understanding of what he states in those 2 verses is that he who overcomes shall inherit all things. He who doesn't shall have their part in the LOF. Both of those things happen at Judgement. He is just stating the facts.
It's still called the second death because that's what it is and that happens at Judgement Day. That is final. These group of sinners in verse 8 shall have their part in the LOF on Judgement Day. It's not that hard to understand. As I said before, it's just reiterating what will happen.
Again, this is a Revelation to us what will happen. And these are warnings to whomever reads this Revelation.

Maybe this. Maybe that, Could be this. Could be that. When Jesus said "no more death etc." He really didn't mean it? Did you read chapter 22 VS. 11-0

 

[JulieB67]

When Jesus said "no more death etc." He really didn't mean it?

Of course he meant it. There will be no more death after Judgement Day. Those sinners in verse 8 will be thrown in on Judgement Day. After that the former things will be passed away and the new will be ushered in.

I will ask you as well. He states it's the second death. He didn't really mean it?

 

[Der Alte]

Of course he meant it. There will be no more death after Judgement Day. Those sinners in verse 8 will be thrown in on Judgement Day. After that the former things will be passed away and the new will be ushered in.
I will ask you as well. He states it's the second death. He didn't really mean it?

Jesus did not say "no more death after judgement day." As for the second death. Never once does Rev say that anyone/anything is thrown into the lake of fire then they/it dies. The only time something happens after being thrown into the LOF it says they, the beast, the devil and the false prophet who is a person, are tormented day and night forever and ever. Rev 20:10.

 

[JulieB67]

Jesus did not say "no more death after judgement day

Revelation 21:4 "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

This is after Judgement Day. Again he's just reiterating what will happen in verses 7 and 8.

And we have to take the bible as a whole. You know that Christ states we are not to fear the death of our flesh body but to fear the one (iour Father) who can destroy both body and soul in hell. People claim he can do that but won't. Well why did Christ state this was something to fear then? You're basically stating that our Father will only kill the flesh body as well which totally makes Christ's point moot.

We then take these words and really all the times in the bible where we are told that we will either have eternal life or perish, the wages of sin is death. It states our Father doesn't even want that the wicked should perish and so on. Then in the end, Christ nails it and calls being thrown into the LOF, the second "death". It's not the second life. We are then told the former things will pass away. That happens after this,

Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

We are then told the former things will pass away. That happens after this,

We have to apply some common sense in that our Father is not going to leave some part of the former still there with people burning for an eternity while we live with him with no tears, etc.

The wicked will be stubble. That's what a fire does.

Malachi 4:1 "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave then neither root nor branch."

That's eternal destruction. Paul even touches on that,


II Thessalonians 1:9 "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"

That's the punishment- everlasting destruction.

ETA, we have to believe in this truth -

Revelation 21:4 "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

 

[Der Alte]

Revelation 21:4 "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."
This is after Judgement Day. Again he's just reiterating what will happen in verses 7 and 8.
At We have to take the bible as a whole. You know that Christ states we are not to fear the death of our flesh body but to fear the one (iour Father) who can destroy both body and soul in hell. People claim he can do that but won't. Well why did Christ state this was something to fear then? You're basically stating that our Father will only kill the flesh body as well which totally makes Christ's point moot.
We then take these words and really all the times in the bible where we are told that we will either have eternal life or perish, the wages of sin is death. It states our Father doesn't even want that the wicked should perish and so on. Then in the end, Christ nails it and calls being thrown into the LOF, the second "death". It's not the second life. We are then told the former things will pass away. That happens after this,
Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."
We are then told the former things will pass away. That happens after this,
We have to apply some common sense in that our Father is not going to leave some part of the former still there with people burning for an eternity while we live with him with no tears, etc.
The wicked will be stubble. That's what a fire does.
Malachi 4:1 "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave then neither root nor branch."
That's eternal destruction. Paul even touches on that,
II Thessalonians 1:9 "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"
That's the punishment- everlasting destruction.
ETA, we have to believe in this truth -
Revelation 21:4 "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

You are partially correct. Jesus did say "fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in hell." But I can't find a single verse which says God has or will destroy even one soul in hell or anywhere else.
There is a problem with citing this vs. "Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." Death is the point in time end of life it has no physical properties and cannot be literally thrown anywhere. "Hell" is either the grave or the place of punishment. If the grave they will be empty. Empty can't be thrown anywhere. But there is a solution that does not involve mixing literal and figurative in one sentence.

Revelation 6:8
(8) And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

I call them the angel of death and the demon of hell. You can call them anything you want. They are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
Your reference to Malachi is out-of-context.

Malachi 4:3
(3) And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.​

This happens on one day in this life. There will be no sinner's ashes in paradise for the saints to tread down.
Re: 2 Thess 1:9 The Greek word "apollumi" translated destroyed was also used to refer to the lost sheep found by the shepherd and the returned prodigal son. Something that is destroyed does not exist. It cannot be "from" anything.

 

[Der Alte]

Of course he meant it. There will be no more death after Judgement Day. Those sinners in verse 8 will be thrown in on Judgement Day. After that the former things will be passed away and the new will be ushered in.
I will ask you as well. He states it's the second death. He didn't really mean it?

Rev 21:8 says nothing about judgment day.
"Former things" people are not things!
The LOF is called the second death twice but not one single vs. says anyone/anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies. The devil, the beast and the false prophet, who was a person, are in the LOF and tormented day and night for ever.
I say that "the lake of fire" and "the second death" are used interchangeably. The lake of fire is the second death. The second death is the lake of fire.

 

[JulieB67]

The LOF is called the second death twice but not one single vs. says anyone/anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.

Do you realize that this comment makes no sense whatsover? It's called the second death and yet no one dies.?

Calling it the second death is telling us they die. Why would Christ call it death if it doesn't mean to die?

 

[Der Alte]

Do you realize that this comment makes no sense whatsover? It's called the second death and yet no one dies.?
Calling it the second death is telling us they die. Why would Christ call it death if it doesn't mean to die?

Unlike some I have read the entire Bible not just the vss which support assumptions/presuppositions.

Revelation 20:10
(10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

Three sentient beings, one the false prophet is a person, are thrown into the LOF which is called the second death but they do not die they are tormented day and night forever.
There is not one vs. in the entire book of revelation which says anything/anyone is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
Based on Rev 20:10, the second death and lake of fire appear to be used interchangeably. The lake of fire is the second death, the second death is the lake of fire.

 

[JulieB67]

Unlike some I have read the entire Bible

I have read the entire Bible as well. Still in it, letting it grow every day for me. I had to read it in it's entirety because I was tired of the many false doctrines that had been laid on me at certain churches. That was only 20 years ago. I wasted many years not doing so. But I digress.

not just the vss which support assumptions/presuppositions.

It would appear you've done just that though. The entire Bible suggest that the wicked will perish, be destroyed fully and so on. So the that's why we take a second look at verses like 20:10. We know forever doesn't have to always mean an eternity. It can mean age and certain phrases can mean "unto the ages:. We also see times in the Bible when forever can mean just a lifetime until that person dies and so on.

But we have to take the Bible as a whole and it doesn't seem as if you're willing to do that. You are throwing out all of the verses that tells us the wicked will perish, burn up, be destroyed, certain entities being turned to ashes etc. By doing this you are claiming those verses aren't true.


I'd rather take the Bible as a whole.

We have to also believe in the simplicity in Christ's teachings in that both body and soul will be destroyed and that's why it's called the second death. There is no coming back from that.

 

[Der Alte]

I have read the entire Bible as well. Still in it, letting it grow every day for me. I had to read it in it's entirety because I was tired of the many false doctrines that had been laid on me at certain churches. That was only 20 years ago. I wasted many years not doing so. But I digress.
It would appear you've done just that though. The entire Bible suggest that the wicked will perish, be destroyed fully and so on. So the that's why we take a second look at verses like 20:10. Forever/aion we know doesn't have to always mean an eternity. It can mean age and certain phrases can mean "unto the ages:. We also see times in the Bible when forever can mean just a lifetime until that person dies and so on.
But we have to take the Bible as a whole and it doesn't seem as if you're willing to do that. You are throwing out all of the verses that tells us the wicked will perish, burn up, be destroyed, certain entities being turned to ashes etc. By doing this you are claiming those verses aren't true.
I'd rather take the Bible as a whole.
We have to also believe in the simplicity in Christ's teachings in that both body and soul will be destroyed and that's why it's called the second death. There is no coming back from that.

I will only address two sentences in this reply.
"Forever/aion we know doesn't have to always mean an eternity. It can mean age and certain phrases can mean "unto the ages:."
Totally wrong! "aionios" the Greek word correctly translated "eternal," can NEVER be translated "age" in any way or form. "Aionios" is an adjective, "age" is a noun. An adjective cannot be translated as a noun.
The noun "aion" which can be shown to mean "eternity" is sometimes used figuratively and translated "age." "aion" is the word used in these 2 vss.

Luke 1:33​

(33) And he shall reign [basileusei][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας/lit. unto the eternity [aionas] [PlMas] and of his kingdom [basileias][Nn] there shall be no end.[telos] ​

In this verse the reign/basileusei, the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here definitely means eternity.
John 6:58

(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever. [εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα/aiona [lit. unto eternity]​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “live forever” with “death.” If “live unto aiona” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aiona” by definition here means “eternity.”

John 10:28​

(28) I give them eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] life, and they shall never​

[εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα[font]/ eis ton aiona][lit. unto eternity] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. ​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aiona” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aiona” means “age(s), a finite period,” “age(s) is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

John 3:15​

(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.​

John 3:16​

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion life” with “should not perish,” twice! Thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

 

[public hermit]

Totally wrong! "aionios" the Greek word correctly translated "eternal," can NEVER be translated "age" in any way or form

You're wrong.

See Rom. 16:25

KJV "...according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began."

NRSV "...according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages."

2 Tim. 1:9

KJV "...which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began."

NRSV "...This grace was given to us in Christ Jesus before the ages began."

Titus 1:2

KJV "...promised before the world began."

NRSV "...promised before the ages began."

What is interesting about these passages is how nonsensical it would be to translate aionion as eternal. "...promised before eternity began."

I've said it before-Why did so many Greek speakers reject translating the adjective of aion as eternal? They knew better. Why did Latin speakers not follow their lead? They were part of an institution that naturally sought the compulsive power of eternal damnation. It is not a coincidence that the very many, pace Augustine, who rejected eternal damnation dwindled to a minority once the institution gained full power, c. 5th century on.

 

[Der Alte]

You're wrong.
See Rom. 16:25
KJV "...according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began."
NRSV "...according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages."
2 Tim. 1:9
KJV "...which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began."
NRSV "...This grace was given to us in Christ Jesus before the ages began."
Titus 1:2
KJV "...promised before the world began."
NRSV "...promised before the ages began."
What is interesting about these passages is how nonsensical it would be to translate aionion as eternal. "...promised before eternity began."
I've said it before-Why did so many Greek speakers reject translating the adjective of aion as eternal? They knew better. Why did Latin speakers not follow their lead? They were part of an institution that naturally sought the compulsive power of eternal damnation. It is not a coincidence that the very many, pace Augustine, who rejected eternal damnation dwindled to a minority once the institution gained full power, c. 5th century on.

"Aionios" cannot grammatically be translated "age(s)" because "aionios" is an adjective and "age" is a noun. Three 3 instances out of 71 occurrences of "aionios" in the NT does NOT change the meaning to "age(s)." Therefore, the usage is figurative. The rest of your post is smoke and mirrors.
Please see my post, at the below link, and the one following where I cite 24 vss which prove that "aionios" means "eternal." "Aionios" is never defined or described as a period less that eternal in any vs.

the wrath of God

In the Chart I provided, and of which you responded to regarding "ainion," not once is God described as eternal. All the uses of eternal regard God's promises to us. Are you saying that all of the 71 times that "ainion" is used does not mean eternal? As for your claim without evidence: You...

www.christianforums.com

 

[JulieB67]

I will only address two sentences in this reply.

Of course you will. You have nothing to say about how most of the Bible points to the fact that the wicked will perish, be burned up and turned to ashes, stubble, no root or branch, nothing. You cling certain verses and continue to not take the Bible as a whole. You don't even believe death means just that-death/to die.

 

[Der Alte]

Of course you will. You have nothing to say about how most of the Bible points to the fact that the wicked will perish, be burned up and turned to ashes, stubble, no root or branch, nothing. You cling certain verses and continue to not take the Bible as a whole. You don't even believe death means just that-death/to die.

I cling to; Jesus said it, I believe it and that settles it.

Matthew 25:46
(46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.​

See my post #172, three vss. where Jesus defines/describes "aionios" as eternal.

 

[Lost Witness]

Do you realize that this comment makes no sense whatsover? It's called the second death and yet no one dies.?

Calling it the second death is telling us they die. Why would Christ call it death if it doesn't mean to die?

They die as in Nobody will ever see them again,
they will not exist anymore
they will be in hell,
alone, forever.
Second Death.

 

[JulieB67]

Jesus said it, I believe it and that settles it.

He states it's the second "death" and you don't believe that. He states "I make "all things new" and you don't believe that as well. You believe the LOF, a former thing will not pass away even though we are told just that. He states there will be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be anymore pain because the former things will be passed away and you don't believe those words as well.

They die as in Nobody will ever see them again,
they will not exist anymore
they will be in hell,
alone, forever.
Second Death.

That again makes no sense. The wicked will be burned up, turned to ashes that's why they will not exist anymore. That's what a fire does. If they are in hell they will still exist. That is not "death". And death and hell are thrown into the LOF. That's it. After that we are ushered in the New Heavens and Earth. The former things are passed away. That includes the LOF. Which is a former thing. No more death, pain and sorrow. And yet many don't believe those words. They believe there will still be death, pain, tears and sorrow. He goes on and states "I make all things new" and yet people don't believe those words.

Christ states very clearly we are to fear the one that can destroy both body and soul. Common sense alone tells us the first death is physical and the second is the death of the soul. We get that right from these verses.

 

[Der Alte]

He states it's the second "death" and you don't believe that. He states "I make "all things new" and you don't believe that as well. You believe the LOF, a former thing will not pass away even though we are told just that. He states there will be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be anymore pain because the former things will be passed away and you don't believe those words as well.
* * *

I believe everything that Jesus said. What I don't believe is taking a piece of a verse here and a piece of another verse there, etc, etc, cramming them together trying to make them into one continuous narrative as you have done. That's the proper way, as I do it. Please try again quoting each verse "in context." Funny how some folks want "all things" to mean even people sometimes and not others. I believe that "all things" always, only refers to things, not people. People aren't things.

 

[JulieB67]

That's the proper way, as I do it.

Again, I don't see you taking the bible as a whole which is what we should be doing. We shouldn't cling to certain verses and throw the rest of the Bible out. If the rest of the Bible does not agree with your beliefs than that's a heads up that something is wrong with your beliefs.

People aren't things.

The LOF is a thing. And it will be a former thing. Why else would Christ state there would be no more pain as well as death?? Because the former things, including the LOF will have passed away.