There is no Hell (Moved)

[YahuahSaves]

The Jews did not believe that "hell was death" in the O.T. Among the Jews before and during the time of Jesus there was a significant belief in a place of eternal, fiery punishment and they called it both "Sheol" and "Ge Hinnom" written in the 225 BC LXX and the N.T. as "hades" and Gehenna.". You can read all about it at this link to the 1917 Jewish Encyclopedia

Perhaps you should do some more research because even Jews themselves disagree on the subject of hell.

Do Jews Believe in Hell? Jewish Belief in Hell: True or False?

Do Jews Believe in Heaven and Hell?

5 Things You Never Knew about Jewish Hell

 

[Der Alte]

Perhaps you should do some more research because even Jews themselves disagree on the subject of hell.
Do Jews Believe in Hell? Jewish Belief in Hell: True or False?
Do Jews Believe in Heaven and Hell?
5 Things You Never Knew about Jewish Hell

Maybe you should go back and read my post again. I am well aware that many modern Jews do not believe in Hell. What modern Jews believe about Hell or anything else is irrelevant it has no impact in any way on what Christians believe. OTOH what the Jews before and during the time of Jesus influenced what the early Christians believed. Jesus and His disciples would have known about the then existing belief in Hell what Jesus taught about Gehenna and Hades did not contradict but supported the then Jewish teaching on hell.
See my post at this link.

There is no Hell (Moved)

The well-known view of hell is that it is a place where people are tortured with full consciousness. But this view is biblically wrong and is the fatal consequence of wrong interpretation. The Bible makes it clear from the very beginning that hell is nothing other than eternal death. Eternal...

www.christianforums.com

 

[YahuahSaves]

Maybe you should go back and read my post again. I am well aware that many modern Jews do not believe in Hell. What modern Jews believe about Hell or anything else is irrelevant it has no impact in any way on what Christians believe. OTOH what the Jews before and during the time of Jesus influenced what the early Christians believed. Jesus and His disciples would have known about the then existing belief in Hell what Jesus taught about Gehenna and Hades did not contradict but supported the then Jewish teaching on hell.
See my post at this link.

There is no Hell (Moved)

The well-known view of hell is that it is a place where people are tortured with full consciousness. But this view is biblically wrong and is the fatal consequence of wrong interpretation. The Bible makes it clear from the very beginning that hell is nothing other than eternal death. Eternal...

www.christianforums.com

There was information about history in there as well. But whatever. You can believe what you want.

 

[Lost Witness]

There was information about history in there as well. But whatever. You can believe what you want.

Hell's ECT
In Hell there is no Hope, they will never live again, as known now,
there's no blessings whatsoever which is why a lot of Christians call it "Eternal Separation from GOD",
It's never ending,
Now the reason why "i" think this is,
GODS eternal,
We spend our "lives" in opposition to him and denying him so thusly he punishes us for the duration of His Life,
Since He's Eternal...
we're punished forever and ever, (it's forever as our time in hell does have a starting point just not an End)
Believing they Just "cease" to be is not entirely wrong because they will never exist outside of hell, Again.
Nobody Outside of Hell will ever know they existed, they won't be a memory, they won't be anything.

 

[Lost Witness]

Also there would be No need for "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."
Why would they put undying worms in the flesh of those who go to hell if they were just going to "go Poof"?

 

[YahuahSaves]

Hell's ECT
In Hell there is no Hope, they will never live again, as known now,
there's no blessings whatsoever which is why a lot of Christians call it "Eternal Separation from GOD",
It's never ending,
Now the reason why "i" think this is,
GODS eternal,
We spend our "lives" in opposition to him and denying him so thusly he punishes us for the duration of His Life,
Since He's Eternal...
we're punished forever and ever, (it's forever as our time in hell does have a starting point just not an End)
Believing they Just "cease" to be is not entirely wrong because they will never exist outside of hell, Again.
Nobody Outside of Hell will ever know they existed, they won't be a memory, they won't be anything.

The Jewish mystics in early history believed hell to be a short-term cleansing of the soul.

There are many interpretations, but without context of the original Hebrew and Greek, the argument fails.

 

[Lost Witness]

The Jewish mystics in early history believed hell to be a short-term cleansing of the soul.

There are many interpretations, but without context of the original Hebrew and Greek, the argument fails.

See things like that thought are also too risky for my soul
I've learnt enough in Just the little time that I've lived that Jesus Doesn't Lie, EVER.
Everything he's said in scripture that I've personally experienced has been 100% true.
Too risky to go on something that's not in scripture.
That's My two cents

 

[Der Alte]

There was information about history in there as well. But whatever. You can believe what you want.

You are mistaken. You are the one who believes what you want to believe. OTOH I post facts. I believe what the Jews have written about their history, which I quoted and linked to. If not the Jews own writings what sources do you use to obtain similar historical information?

 

[Der Alte]

The Jewish mystics in early history believed hell to be a short-term cleansing of the soul.
There are many interpretations, but without context of the original Hebrew and Greek, the argument fails.

Do you read either Hebrew or Greek? I do. I studied both at the graduate level almost 4 decades ago. What is your source for the first comment, "The Jewish mystics in early history believed hell to be a short-term cleansing of the soul?" Have you read any Jewish written history whatsoever? I don't mean anonymous websites online.
Here is a quote from the 1972 Encyclopedia Judaica

In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Link:

Gehinnom

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
​

 

[YahuahSaves]

See things like that thought are also too risky for my soul
I've learnt enough in Just the little time that I've lived that Jesus Doesn't Lie, EVER.
Everything he's said in scripture that I've personally experienced has been 100% true.
Too risky to go on something that's not in scripture.
That's My two cents

That's fine. Plenty of people disagree with this particular area of scripture. You're wise to believe eternal suffering is true.

 

[Lost Witness]

The LOF is a thing. And it will be a former thing. Why else would Christ state there would be no more pain as well as death?? Because the former things, including the LOF will have passed away.

Sorry not A JW

"Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. "Mark 9: 44-48

 

[YahuahSaves]

What is your source for the first comment, "The Jewish mystics in early history believed hell to be a short-term cleansing of the soul?"

One of the articles I linked (2 of them were written by Jewish people)

 

[JulieB67]

"Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. "Mark 9: 44-48

The fire cannot be put out by human hands. That's why it's unquenchable. But once it consumes and there's nothing but stubble and ash, it will be finished. That is the second "death". That's eternal destruction, which is everlasting. But it will pass away as it's a former thing. Christ states that he will make all things new. That includes no more death, pain, etc. That can't be possible if we still have the LOF with people burning forever. They will burn up.


Malachi 4:1 "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch."


Malachi 4:3 "And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts."

Ezekiel 28:18
"Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee."

Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

II Thessalonians 1:9 "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"

Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."


Revelation 21:4 "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

Revelation 21:5 "And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful."

 

[Der Alte]

The fire cannot be put out by human hands. That's why it's unquenchable. But once it consumes and there's nothing but stubble and ash, it will be finished. That is the second "death". That's eternal destruction, which is everlasting. But it will pass away as it's a former thing. Christ states that he will make all things new. That includes no more death, pain, etc. That can't be possible if we still have the LOF with people burning forever. They will burn up.

Malachi 4:1 "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch."

Malachi 4:3 "And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts."

Ezekiel 28:18
"Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee."

Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

II Thessalonians 1:9 "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"

Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

Revelation 21:4 "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

Revelation 21:5 "And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful."

Anyone can make the Bible seem to support almost anything by quoting selective verses out-of-context jamming them all together as if they formed one continuous narrative, as has been done here.
Re: Rev 20:14 Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere. Hell, if it refers to graves will be empty. Empty cannot be thrown anywhere but there is a scriptural answer.

Revelation 6:8
(8) And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

Two sentient beings whom I refer to as the angel of death and the demon of hell. Feel free to call them whatever you will. They can be thrown into the LOF and their ability to kill ended.
As for all those other vss. Read the end of the book.

Revelation 22:11
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.​

Ten more vss. no more death, no more salvation only, "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still."

 

[Der Alte]

Perhaps you should do some more research because even Jews themselves disagree on the subject of hell.
Do Jews Believe in Hell? Jewish Belief in Hell: True or False?
Do Jews Believe in Heaven and Hell?
5 Things You Never Knew about Jewish Hell

I reread your post where you mentioned "historical information." Unfortunately, at the 3 links you posted, none of the three quoted any scripture or historical sources such as the Talmud. One of the links mentioned Rambam a famous 12th-13th century Jewish Rabbi. So what we have is mostly unsupported opinion of 3 anonymous Jewish writers.

 

[Lost Witness]

That's eternal destruction, which is everlasting.

Yes Forever, Never ending,
Hell doesn't 'fade away"
It never ends.
completely ignored the fact that they have Undying worms put into their flesh?
UNDYING? why would they add worms that can't die if hell will just go "poof"?
They wouldn't,
Nor would they use FOREVER or Eternity when referencing hell.

 

[Der Alte]

The fire cannot be put out by human hands. That's why it's unquenchable. But once it consumes and there's nothing but stubble and ash, it will be finished. That is the second "death". That's eternal destruction, which is everlasting. But it will pass away as it's a former thing. Christ states that he will make all things new. That includes no more death, pain, etc. That can't be possible if we still have the LOF with people burning forever. They will burn up.
Malachi 4:1 "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch."
Malachi 4:3 "And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts."
Ezekiel 28:18
"Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee."
Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
II Thessalonians 1:9 "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"
Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."
Revelation 21:4 "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."
Revelation 21:5 "And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful."

Malachi and Ezekiel do not support your argument, "But once it consumes and there's nothing but stubble and ash, it will be finished. That is the second "death."
Both verses refer to what happens here in this life. Mal 4:1 There will be no wicked being burned up and saints treading on their ashes in paradise. Ezek 28:18 says "ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee" not in paradise.
2 Thess 1:9 The word translated "destruction" is apollumi. This word is also used to refer to the lost sheep that was found and the prodigal son that returned. So it does not necessarily mean be annihilated, no longer exist. Someone that is annihilated cannot be "from" anything.

 

[YahuahSaves]

I reread your post where you mentioned "historical information."

When did I mention that? I said "maybe you should do some more research" and gave you some articles where Jews disagree with you. Are you a Jew? Do you live in their culture and follow their religion? Perhaps you should do more research instead of assuming that the English translation is entirely accurate.

 

[Der Alte]

When did I mention that? I said "maybe you should do some more research" and gave you some articles where Jews disagree with you. Are you a Jew? Do you live in their culture and follow their religion? Perhaps you should do more research instead of assuming that the English translation is entirely accurate.

You mentioned history in your post #223

There is no Hell (Moved)

The Jews did not believe that "hell was death" in the O.T. Among the Jews before and during the time of Jesus there was a significant belief in a place of eternal, fiery punishment and they called it both "Sheol" and "Ge Hinnom" written in the 225 BC LXX and the N.T. as "hades" and Gehenna."...

www.christianforums.com

I studied both Hebrew and Greek at the graduate level about 4 decades ago. Yes, you gave me 3 modern Jews whose modern-day opinions have no relevance to nor bearing on the first century Jews nor historic or modern Christianity.
I have studied, you haven't. Had you bothered to actually read my posts you would know that I quoted from the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia which you evidently reject because it contradicts your assumptions/presuppositions.

 

[JulieB67]

Malachi and Ezekiel do not support your argument, "But once it consumes and there's nothing but stubble and ash, it will be finished. That is the second "death."
Both verses refer to what happens here in this life. Mal 4:1 There will be no wicked being burned up and saints treading on their ashes in paradise. Ezek 28:18 says "ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee" not in paradise.
2 Thess 1:9 The word translated "destruction" is apollumi. This word is also used to refer to the lost sheep that was found and the prodigal son that returned. So it does not necessarily mean be annihilated, no longer exist. Someone that is annihilated cannot be "from" anything.

Again, I believe Christ when he calls it the second death.