There is no Hell (Moved)

[Der Alte]

And yet here you are contradicting yourself. He calls the LOF the second death but you don't think he meant death.

Nope! And your point is? What did Jesus say in Matthew 25:46? Did He say death? Is the second death the same as "death" in any other context?

 

[JulieB67]

Nope! And your point is?

You stated when he said death he meant it. And so I stated that was a contradiction on your beliefs because obviously you don't believe he meant it when he called the LOF the second death. You believe it is eternal life -just in another place.

I on the other hand believe Christ when he calls it the second death.

 

[Der Alte]

You stated when he said death he meant it. And so I stated that was a contradiction on your beliefs because obviously you don't believe he meant it when he called the LOF the second death. You believe it is eternal life -just in another place.
I on the other hand believe Christ when he calls it the second death.

Can you show me one vs. where anyone/anything was thrown into the LOF then they/it dies?
The only vs. which mentions something happening in the LOF is Rev 20:10, the devil, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LOF. If the LOF means death, they should die but they don't die they are tormented day and night for ever and ever.
It appears to me that "the lake of fire" and "the second death" are used interchangeably. The LOF is the second death and the second death is the LOF.
So, the one-time Jesus mentions the LOF is the second death does not negate the 18 times He said death and meant death.
As for eternal life it does not refer to duration alone but also the quality. According to Luke 16:25-26 the rich man died but in hades he had some kind of conscious existence and it wasn't pleasant. Also, he couldn't change his circumstances.
And OBTW there is no contradiction in my beliefs. I believe what the Bible says as I have shown. See e.g. Revelation 22:11

 

[JulieB67]

So, the one-time Jesus mentions the LOF is the second death does not negate the 18 times He said death and meant death.

Of course it doesn't. He means death every time including the 3 times he mentions the "second death". You choose not to believe him in those three instances while I do believe he means death.

According to Luke 16:25-26 the rich man died but in hades he had some kind of conscious existence and it wasn't pleasant.

The LOF comes at the final Judgement Day. The rich man is on one side of the gulf at this point. There's a difference. Is he suffereing, yes. Has he been thrown into the LOF yet? No.

Can you show me one vs. where anyone/anything was thrown into the LOF then they/it dies?

Yes, when Christ calls it the second "death" that means death. The very definition of death means to die. We have to apply some common sense here.

 

[Der Alte]

Of course it doesn't. He means death every time including the 3 times he mentions the "second death". You choose not to believe him in those three instances while I do believe he means death.
The LOF comes at the final Judgement Day. The rich man is on one side of the gulf at this point. There's a difference. Is he suffereing, yes. Has he been thrown into the LOF yet? No.
Yes, when Christ calls it the second "death" that means death. The very definition of death means to die. We have to apply some common sense here.

Meanwhile we will just ignore Revelation 20:10. If the LOF meant instant death why didn't the devil. the beast and the false prophet die? Instead of dying those three are all alone being tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Remember we got here because you assumed that when Jesus said, "Eternal punishment" He actually meant "eternal death."

 

[JulieB67]

If the LOF meant instant death why didn't the devil

Even Satan will be turned to ashes from within. That was prophesized in Ez 28. Not sure if that's instant with him or not but it is prophesized and we are told once again that the former things will be no more. The LOF is a former thing. If someone wants to believe it will be included in the new heaven and earth that's their choice. And is someone doesn't want to believe Christ when he states the LOF is death, the second death, that's their choice as well.

 

[Der Alte]

Even Satan will be turned to ashes from within. That was prophesized in Ez 28. Not sure if that's instant with him or not but it is prophesized and we are told once again that the former things will be no more. The LOF is a former thing. If someone wants to believe it will be included in the new heaven and earth that's their choice. And is someone doesn't want to believe Christ when he states the LOF is death, the second death, that's their choice as well.

The one in Ezek 28 is "the anointed cherub that covereth." If one reads only Ezekiel they might conclude that is Satan. But Rev 20:10 disproves that.

 

[Emun]

Meanwhile we will just ignore Revelation 20:10. If the LOF meant instant death why didn't the devil. the beast and the false prophet die? Instead of dying those three are all alone being tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Remember we got here because you assumed that when Jesus said, "Eternal punishment" He actually meant "eternal death."

As I have already explained, the state of non-existence is torment. When Revelation speaks of being tormented forever, it refers to death. They are tormented by not existing forever. This is a plausible interpretation. You don't have to accept this interpretation, but you can at least understand it.

You are a Baptist, most Baptists I know know the Bible, so I think you know that the Bible and especially Revelation is full of metaphors. There is nothing left for you but to refute the interpretation I have given you. Pretending not to understand it does not get us anywhere.

I have a question for you. When Adam sinned, God said to him that he will return to the dust, he said, from the dust you became, to the dust you will return. In other words, he said, from nothing you came, to nothing you will return. Why didn't God mention the hell you believe in? The Old Testament makes it clear that hell is death. In the New Testament, I must admit that there are a few verses that seem to represent the traditional view of hell, but you cannot take those few verses and ignore everything else, especially because those few verses belong either to parables or symbolic books like Revelation.

 

[Der Alte]

As I have already explained, the state of non-existence is torment. When Revelation speaks of being tormented forever, it refers to death. They are tormented by not existing forever. This is a plausible interpretation. You don't have to accept this interpretation, but you can at least understand it.
You are a Baptist, most Baptists I know know the Bible, so I think you know that the Bible and especially Revelation is full of metaphors. There is nothing left for you but to refute the interpretation I have given you. Pretending not to understand it does not get us anywhere.
I have a question for you. When Adam sinned, God said to him that he will return to the dust, he said, from the dust you became, to the dust you will return. In other words, he said, from nothing you came, to nothing you will return. Why didn't God mention the hell you believe in? The Old Testament makes it clear that hell is death. In the New Testament, I must admit that there are a few verses that seem to represent the traditional view of hell, but you cannot take those few verses and ignore everything else, especially because those few verses belong either to parables or symbolic books like Revelation.

God told Adam in the day that he ate of the tree of knowledge he would surely die but he didn't. God banished him from the garden. Gen 3:24.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.​

Someone who does not exist cannot experience/feel anything not even torment. You will have to ask God why He didn't mention hell in the OT. But the Jews are certain He did.
The Jews did not believe that "hell was death" in the O.T. Among the Jews before and during the time of Jesus there was a significant belief in a place of eternal, fiery punishment and they called it both "Sheol" and "Ge Hinnom" written in the 225 BC LXX and the N.T. as "hades" and Gehenna.". You can read all about it at this link to the 1917 Jewish Encyclopedia

GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

jewishencyclopedia.com

 

[Emun]

God told Adam in the day that he ate of the tree of knowledge he would surely die but he didn't. God banished him from the garden. Gen 3:24.

When Adam was banished from the garden, he was separated from God and thus from life. Dying is a process, and aging is a part of that process. Adam began to age and later died.

Someone who does not exist cannot experience/feel anything not even torment. You will have to ask God why He didn't mention hell in the OT. But the Jews are certain He did.
The Jews did not believe that "hell was death" in the O.T. Among the Jews before and during the time of Jesus there was a significant belief in a place of eternal, fiery punishment and they called it both "Sheol" and "Ge Hinnom" written in the 225 BC LXX and the N.T. as "hades" and Gehenna.". You can read all about it at this link to the 1917 Jewish Encyclopedia

Jews also do not believe in the Trinity and the crucifixion although both are found in the Old Testament. Why should I care what they think?

 

[Der Alte]

When Adam was banished from the garden, he was separated from God and thus from life. Dying is a process, and aging is a part of that process. Adam began to age and later died.
Jews also do not believe in the Trinity and the crucifixion although both are found in the Old Testament. Why should I care what they think?

God did not say the process of dying would start. He said "in the day you eat of the fruit you will surely die." What the Jews did not believe is not relevant. IIRC Jesus and His disciples were Jews, as were most of the early converts. They would have known about the then current Jewish belief in Hell. Neither Jesus nor His disciples taught anything contrary to the Jewish belief in hell.
When Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6 [A fate worse than death. DA]
• “Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. …And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24 [A fate worse than death]
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12 [A fate worse than death. DA]
• (22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell [αδη/hades] he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luke 16:26
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Luke 16:22-24​

…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, c.f. Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and Talmud.
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death, without mercy, is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. [A fate worse than death. DA]​

…..“how much sorer punishment,””Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord,””It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” these deprecations certainly do not sound like everyone will be saved, no matter what.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 18 times in the gospels, if He intended to say “eternal death,” in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment/aionios kolasis.”

 

[sparow]

The well-known view of hell is that it is a place where people are tortured with full consciousness. But this view is biblically wrong and is the fatal consequence of wrong interpretation. The Bible makes it clear from the very beginning that hell is nothing other than eternal death. Eternal death means that one no longer exists and will never return to life.

Only the Book of Revelation speaks of a place of eternal torment. However, one cannot take the Book of Revelation, which is probably the most symbolic book, and ignore all other books where annihilationism is taught. The book of Revelation is full of metaphors and such passages should not be understood literally.

Jesus' words when he said, "Where the fire does not go out and their worm does not die" is also often used as evidence of eternal torment, although Jesus does not use the word torture here. However, these words of Jesus are easy to explain. What Jesus wanted to make clear with these words is that eternal death is a state that will never end.

The eternal death, or otherwise called the second death is the final punishment. The people who are thrown into the lake of fire will literally be burned into non-existence, like a piece of paper thrown into a fire. Revelation 21:8

The most significant thing about the second death is those who experience it have no further ability to be resurrected, no record of their previous existence is available.

The Word Hell is the translators choice; a translation would be Grave. In the old days in England a hell was a hole in the ground requiring only one dimension, a depth of six foot, and was used for cold storage, for things like meat, butter and potatoes; and of course this size hole was also used for graves. Most references to fire and brimstone refer metaphorically to Sodom and Gomorrah that was destroyed by volcano.

 

[cherishedteddies]

The Bible speaks about he'll. What exactly it is, I don't know. Certainly not having Jesus help. I think he'll would be to be reincarnated over and over again. A place without Jesus would be he'll. I find it difficult to believe that God would allow someone to be eternally tormented in fire, although I am not taking any chances.

 

[YahuahSaves]

The well-known view of hell is that it is a place where people are tortured with full consciousness. But this view is biblically wrong and is the fatal consequence of wrong interpretation. The Bible makes it clear from the very beginning that hell is nothing other than eternal death. Eternal death means that one no longer exists and will never return to life.

Only the Book of Revelation speaks of a place of eternal torment. However, one cannot take the Book of Revelation, which is probably the most symbolic book, and ignore all other books where annihilationism is taught. The book of Revelation is full of metaphors and such passages should not be understood literally.

Jesus' words when he said, "Where the fire does not go out and their worm does not die" is also often used as evidence of eternal torment, although Jesus does not use the word torture here. However, these words of Jesus are easy to explain. What Jesus wanted to make clear with these words is that eternal death is a state that will never end.

The eternal death, or otherwise called the second death is the final punishment. The people who are thrown into the lake of fire will literally be burned into non-existence, like a piece of paper thrown into a fire. Revelation 21:8

This subject intrigues me because the words used in the original Hebrew and Greek are not as limited as the English translation. I was looking at a site that went into depth about this not so long ago, but cannot remember what it was called. Perhaps I will add later if I do find it.

Edit: I just realised the link I added didn't address what I was actually trying to say. It's a very interesting and hotly debated topic, I often think people love the idea of hell because then there would be true suffering for those who made others suffer while on earth. I am beginning to think though, eternal life vs. eternal death are opposite ends of the spectrum. One cannot be "eternally dead" but also be concious and aware of their surroundings.

I'm also a big believer that God is the only one who gives life and being "without God" for eternity would be literal "death", (never to be raised to life again).

 

[Saint Steven]

The most significant thing about the second death is those who experience it have no further ability to be resurrected, no record of their previous existence is available.

Somehow God becomes less than omniscient? Or only tight-lipped?
Not to mention less than omnipotent? Unable to raise the dead?
What's wrong with this picture?

 

[Der Alte]

Somehow God becomes less than omniscient? Or only tight-lipped?
Not to mention less than omnipotent? Unable to raise the dead?
What's wrong with this picture?

Somehow God becomes less omniscient? Or only tight-lipped?
Not to mention less omnipotent? Unable to raise the dead?
What's wrong with this picture?

What's wrong with this picture? It is a strawman argument with no basis in reality. Nobody has claimed or implied that God is less than omniscient or omnipotent. Unable to raise the dead. etc.
In Jeremiah 13:11-14 God said, "that I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them." about disobedient Israel and Judah.
Matthew 25:46. Romans 1:24, 26, 28

 

[Der Alte]

The most significant thing about the second death is those who experience it have no further ability to be resurrected, no record of their previous existence is available.
The Word Hell is the translators choice; a translation would be Grave. In the old days in England a hell was a hole in the ground requiring only one dimension, a depth of six foot, and was used for cold storage, for things like meat, butter and potatoes; and of course this size hole was also used for graves. Most references to fire and brimstone refer metaphorically to Sodom and Gomorrah that was destroyed by volcano.

The word "hell" is perfectly acceptable. That there might have been a similar word somewhere that meant something else is irrelevant. The only people who believe this false narrative hang out in forums like this. When the average person tells someone to go to h*** they are not talking about a hole in the ground where foodstuffs were stored.
The Jews before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of eternal fiery punishment, they called it both Sheol and Gehinnom, written in the 225BC LXX and the NT as "Hades" and "Gehenna." See link below

GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

jewishencyclopedia.com

I believe the Bible, God said He sent down fire from heaven and destroyed Sodom, Gomorrah and the cities of the plain. Not a volcano.
And OBTW Merriam-Webster dictionary online does not list food storage place, graves etc. as a historical meaning. Just sayin' maybe, you should use credible sources for your information.

 

[Emun]

The Jews before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of eternal fiery punishment, they called it both Sheol and Gehinnom,

Sheol is the realm of the dead. The prophets were there. Are you implying that they were tortured there?

Gehinnom, as far as I know, was a garbage dump where a constant fire burned. The fire burned the garbage. Jesus used Gehinnom as a parable. Just as the fire burned the garbage, the lake of fire will burn the unbelievers and the devil. They will be extinguished like the garbage.

 

[Der Alte]

Sheol is the realm of the dead. The prophets were there. Are you implying that they were tortured there?
Gehinnom, as far as I know, was a garbage dump where a constant fire burned. The fire burned the garbage. Jesus used Gehinnom as a parable. Just as the fire burned the garbage, the lake of fire will burn the unbelievers and the devil. They will be extinguished like the garbage.

I am not implying anything. I made statements of fact. What you think "sheol" and/or "Gehinnom" means is not relevant. I linked to the Gehenna article in the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia which records the historic beliefs of the Jews about "Gehenna" which the Jews equated with "Hell." This belief in "Hell" extends back at least as far as 700BC. Now I say all this because Jesus and His disciples were Jews and would have known about that belief in hell. What Jesus taught about the fate of the unrighteous did not refute that belief but supported it.
See my post at this link.

There is no Hell (Moved)

The well-known view of hell is that it is a place where people are tortured with full consciousness. But this view is biblically wrong and is the fatal consequence of wrong interpretation. The Bible makes it clear from the very beginning that hell is nothing other than eternal death. Eternal...

www.christianforums.com

 

[Der Alte]

Sheol is the realm of the dead. The prophets were there. Are you implying that they were tortured there?
Gehinnom, as far as I know, was a garbage dump where a constant fire burned. The fire burned the garbage. Jesus used Gehinnom as a parable. Just as the fire burned the garbage, the lake of fire will burn the unbelievers and the devil. They will be extinguished like the garbage.

There was never a burning garbage dump in the valley of Ge Hinnom/GeHenna. There was a garbage dump in a valley outside Jerusalem but it was not in Gehenna it was in the next valley over the Kidron valley.

Abstract
Miqweh of Second Temple Period. ......Jerusalem City-Dump in the Late Second Temple Period, ZDPV, 119/1 (2003),
The chance discovery of an Early Roman city dump (1st century CE) in Jerusalem has yielded for the first time ever quantitative data on garbage components that introduce us to the mundane daily life Jerusalemites led and the kind of animals that were featured in their diet. Most of the garbage consists of pottery shards, all common tableware, while prestige objects are entirely absent. Other significant garbage components include numerous fragments of cooking ovens, wall plaster, animal bones and plant remains. Of the pottery vessels, cooking pots are the most abundant type.
Most of the refuse turns out to be “household garbage” originating in the domestic areas of the city, while large numbers of cooking pots may point to the presence of pilgrims. Significantly, the faunal assemblage, which is dominated by kosher species and the clear absence of pigs, set Jerusalem during its peak historical period apart from all other contemporaneous Roman urban centers.
...
Excavations near the Temple Mount and within the residential areas have already shown that no waste had accumulated there (Reich and Billig 2000), and thus waste must have been removed, most likely in an organized manner. Recently, the contemporaneous city-dump was identified on the eastern slope of the south-eastern hill of Jerusalem in the form of a thick mantle (up to 10 m, 200,000 m3 ) (Reich and Shukron 2003). The dump is located roughly 100 m outside and south-east of the Temple Mount on the eastern slope of the Kidron Valley (fig. 1), and extends at least 400 m and is 50–70 m wide. Large amounts of pottery and coins date the dump to the Early Roman period (the 1st century BCE and the 1st century CE up to the destruction of the city by the Romans in 70 CE). A preliminary study of the garbage (Bouchnik, Bar-Oz and Reich 2004; Bouchnik et al. 2005) showed the presence of animal bones.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...udy_of_the_City-Dump_of_Early_Roman_Jerusalem​

= = =

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992

http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted_hildebrandt/NTeSources/NTArticles/BSac-NT/Scharen-GenenaSyn-Pt1-BS.htm