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There is no Hell (Moved)

BNR32FAN

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I don't see the rich man apologizing in that story. As for the gulf, that could allude to the gulf between man and God that was bridged by the cross.

crossbridge.jpg



That's all sorts of interesting things to be found in this story when you start digging into it.

He begged for mercy and asked Abraham to send someone from the dead to warn his brothers because if someone from the dead came to them they would repent. He wanted his brothers to know what he now knew before it was too late. It’s obvious that the rich man repented just like everyone else will as soon as they enter hell. There are no atheists in hell.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Re: Jacob Neusner. Did you bother checking out the Jewish Encyclopedia entry I linked to?
I have been giving classroom instruction since the '60s.
Re: [My] hermeneutical and/or exegetical method. I doubt very much you are interested in my unsupported opinions.
Re: Wall of text. That is a cop out I often get.



Yes, I've already read your Gehenna article. I told you that in a previous post. Remember? So, are you implying that Jacob Neusner is listed as a source in your references? If so, tell me where it's at.

And am I interested in your opinion? Why yes, I am interested to know what your sources are for your Hermeneutical method.

But yeah, you'll need to do more than paste the same references over and over again. That gets old. Maybe, like an academic, show how other Christian scholars beside yourself and apart from your sole use of those three Jewish references also agree with you.

Do you have folks in your own denomination who agree with you? If so, who are they? For me, that would give me a locus upon which to concentrate. If you can't provide that, I'll just turn back to all of the scholars both Jewish and Christian that I have access to.
 
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ozso

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He begged for mercy and asked Abraham to send someone from the dead to warn his brothers because if someone from the dead came to them they would repent. He wanted his brothers to know what he now knew before it was too late. It’s obvious that the rich man repented just like everyone else will as soon as they enter hell. There are no atheists in hell.
Well that someone from the dead, is most likely an allusion to Christ rising from the dead, which goes back the the gulf and cross analogy, and the story takes place before the crucifixion and resurrection. My avatar is an Eastern Orthodox icon depicting Jesus lifting people out of hell during as part of the resurrection.

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits. 1 Peter 3:18-19

Although from the annihilation perspective, which is what this thread is about, annihilation takes place on the Judgement Day. So Luke 16:19-31 doesn't in any way that I can see dispel annihilation, since it takes place before Judgement Day.
 
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ozso

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He begged for mercy and asked Abraham to send someone from the dead to warn his brothers because if someone from the dead came to them they would repent. He wanted his brothers to know what he now knew before it was too late. It’s obvious that the rich man repented just like everyone else will as soon as they enter hell. There are no atheists in hell.
Another thing is he was asking Abraham for mercy, not God. And it seems the mercy he was asking Abraham for was to send Lazarus over to him with a drop of water, as if Lazarus was an errand boy.
 
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Der Alte

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Yes, I've already read your Gehenna article. I told you that in a previous post. Remember? So, are you implying that Jacob Neusner is listed as a source in your references? If so, tell me where it's at.
And am I interested in your opinion? Why yes, I am interested to know what your sources are for your Hermeneutical method.
But yeah, you'll need to do more than paste the same references over and over again. That gets old. Maybe, like an academic, show how other Christian scholars beside yourself and apart from your sole use of those three Jewish references also agree with you.
Do you have folks in your own denomination who agree with you? If so, who are they? For me, that would give me a locus upon which to concentrate. If you can't provide that, I'll just turn back to all of the scholars both Jewish and Christian that I have access to.
If, you have read my Gehenna post, which is highly unlikely, then you would know that the Talmudim were not the only source, several verses of scripture were also listed. Impossible to miss they were highlighted. in blue.
My first Greek professor Dr. Roger Omanson, is deceased. He was on the initial NIV committee. I think my Hebrew professor Red Owens is also dead. I graduated almost 4 decades ago.
 
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ozso

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The Lazarus -rich man story absolutely is not a parable. A parable has a specific format. Something unknown/not understood is explained by comparison with something known/understood. For example, The kingdom of heaven, not known or understood, is like unto e.g. "a certain king, which would take account of his servants," something known/understood.
The Lazarus/rich man story might be some other figure of speech but it is NOT a parable.
Perhaps, but since you don't know what the other figure of speech is called, "parable" is being used for lack of a better term.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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If, you have read my Gehenna post, which is highly unlikely, then you would know that the Talmudim were not the only source, several verses of scripture were also listed. Impossible to miss they were highlighted. in blue.
My first Greek professor Dr. Roger Omanson, is deceased. He was on the initial NIV committee. I think my Hebrew professor Red Owens is also dead. I graduated almost 4 decades ago.

Yeah. Ok. is your Hermeneutical method Syncronic, Diachronic, or instead of either of these, Existential? I'm trying to follow along with your step by step method, but it's not so clear at the moment which of these you're trying for.

But I'll tell you what, brother Der Alte. Instead of answering the question above that I've derived from one of my sources, how about we just shake hands, make a truce and agree that however Eschatology is to be metted out by the Lord, "Hell" is something we should all avoid and it would be so much better for all of us to be with our Lord, Jesus?
 
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Der Alte

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Perhaps, but since you don't know what the other figure of speech is called, "parable" is being used for lack of a better term.
Parable:
a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson, as told by Jesus in the Gospels.
That ain't the way it works. You don't get to choose something just to make it fit your narrative.
Here is a link to E.V. Bullinger's 1889 book Figures of Speech Used in the Bible. Bullinger lists 217 figures of speech used in the Bible. But I'm afraid it won't help you much.
 
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BNR32FAN

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The Lazarus -rich man story absolutely is not a parable. A parable has a specific format. Something unknown/not understood is explained by comparison with something known/understood. For example, The kingdom of heaven, not known or understood, is like unto e.g. "a certain king, which would take account of his servants," something known/understood.
The Lazarus/rich man story might be some other figure of speech but it is NOT a parable.

The way the story is told it appears to be a true event that actually took place because it give no indication that it’s a fictional story.
 
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Der Alte

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The way the story is told it appears to be a true event that actually took place because it give no indication that it’s a fictional story.
Something else which distinguishes Lazarus and the rich man from the undisputed parables is all of the parables are anonymous, a certain landowner, a certain widow, a certain shepherd etc. The story of Lazarus and the rich man names two specific persons; Lazarus, otherwise unknown, and Abraham, whom the rich man addresses as "Father Abraham." The story is not introduced as a parable so if Abraham was not in the place Jesus mentioned and did not say the words Jesus quoted, Jesus was lying.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Something else which distinguishes Lazarus and the rich man from the undisputed parables is all of the parables are anonymous, a certain landowner, a certain widow, a certain shepherd etc. The story of Lazarus and the rich man names two specific persons; Lazarus, otherwise unknown, and Abraham, whom the rich man addresses as "Father Abrham." The story is not introduced as a parable so if Abraham was not in the place Jesus mentioned and did not say the words Jesus quoted, Jesus was lying.

Exactly
 
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BNR32FAN

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Well that someone from the dead, is most likely an allusion to Christ rising from the dead, which goes back the the gulf and cross analogy, and the story takes place before the crucifixion and resurrection. My avatar is an Eastern Orthodox icon depicting Jesus lifting people out of hell during as part of the resurrection.

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits. 1 Peter 3:18-19

Although from the annihilation perspective, which is what this thread is about, annihilation takes place on the Judgement Day. So Luke 16:19-31 doesn't in any way that I can see dispel annihilation, since it takes place before Judgement Day.

I won’t argue against this point because it certainly is a possibility but I will say this, what people was He preaching to? Was it the people in Abraham’s bosom or the people in Hades because both were disobedient.
 
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ozso

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Something else which distinguishes Lazarus and the rich man from the undisputed parables is all of the parables are anonymous, a certain landowner, a certain widow, a certain shepherd etc. The story of Lazarus and the rich man names two specific persons; Lazarus, otherwise unknown, and Abraham, whom the rich man addresses as "Father Abraham." The story is not introduced as a parable so if Abraham was not in the place Jesus mentioned and did not say the words Jesus quoted, Jesus was lying.
But as has been pointed out the name Lazarus is Eleazer just as Jesus is Joshua. And in Genesis Eleazer was Abraham's heir before the birth of Isaac. Also is Abraham a deity of sorts like Mary is supposed to be? It's not that big of a stretch to surmise that the man dressed in purple and fine linen represents the priesthood of Israel. And a parable (a usually short fictitious story according to Webster) fable, simile, allegory, analogy et al doesn't equate to lying and duplicity. I think there's a good possibility that the story was directed at the Pharisees.
 
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ozso

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That ain't the way it works. You don't get to choose something just to make it fit your narrative.
Here is a link to E.V. Bullinger's 1889 book Figures of Speech Used in the Bible. Bullinger lists 217 figures of speech used in the Bible. But I'm afraid it won't help you much.
Parable, fable, story, simile et al are all synonymous, and parables aren't exclusive to the Bible. You're arguing over semantics, while not providing what's supposed to be the correct term.
 
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ozso

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I won’t argue against this point because it certainly is a possibility but I will say this, what people was He preaching to? Was it the people in Abraham’s bosom or the people in Hades because both were disobedient.
As I recall you're partial to the early church and EO, so I'd say to explore what they have to say about it. In my avatar Jesus has thrown down the gates of hell and is standing on them while the devil/hades/death is hogtied below him and there's broken chains and locks strewn about. This is referred to as the harrowing or obliteration of hell.
 
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Der Alte

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But as has been pointed out the name Lazarus is Eleazer just as Jesus is Joshua. And in Genesis Eleazer was Abraham's heir before the birth of Isaac. Also is Abraham a deity of sorts like Mary is supposed to be? It's not that big of a stretch to surmise that the man dressed in purple and fine linen represents the priesthood of Israel. And a parable (a usually short fictitious story according to Webster) fable, simile, allegory, analogy et al doesn't equate to lying and duplicity. I think there's a good possibility that the story was directed at the Pharisees.
I say again a parable has a specific form something unknown/not understood is explained by comparison with something known/understood. All the unquestioned parables have that comparison.
All kinds of suppositions have been presented about what each person represented. Do you know why the rich man was in hades? He violated a specific commandment.
Deuteronomy 15:7-8
(7) If there be among you a poor man of one of thy brethren within any of thy gates in thy land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thine heart, nor shut thine hand from thy poor brother:
(8) But thou shalt open thine hand wide unto him, and shalt surely lend him sufficient for his need, in that which he wanteth.​
In Bulllinger's 1889 book Figures of Speech Used in the Bible, the author identifies 217 figures of speech including parable. He does not identify Lazarus and the rich man as a parable.
 
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Der Alte

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As I recall you're partial to the early church and EO, so I'd say to explore what they have to say about it. In my avatar Jesus has thrown down the gates of hell and is standing on them while the devil/hades/death is hogtied below him and there's broken chains and locks strewn about. This is referred to as the harrowing or obliteration of hell.
Too bad no, zero, none scripture supports this.
 
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Der Alte

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Parable, fable, story, simile et al are all synonymous, and parables aren't exclusive to the Bible. You're arguing over semantics, while not providing what's supposed to be the correct term.
All 6 ECF who quoted/referred to the story Lazarus and the rich man, as factual.
[1]• Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
Ireneaeus, [120-202 AD], was a student of Polycarp, who was a student of John.
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [[formerly]] bestow even the crumbs [[which fell]] from his table.
[2]•Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1
On the Resurrection.
This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
[3]•Tertullian IX A Treatise On The Soul Chap. VII [A.D. 145-220.]
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality . For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
[4]•Tertullian Part First A Treatise On The Soul Chapter 57
9. Moreover, the fact that Hades is not in any case opened for (the escape of) any soul , has been firmly established by the Lord in the person of Abraham, in His representation of the poor man at rest and the rich man in torment.
[5]•The Epistles Of Cyprian [A.D. 200-258] Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
[6]•Methodius . [A.D. 260-312] XIX he Discourse on the Resurrection. Part III. [A.D. 260-312]
But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.
 
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ozso

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I say again a parable has a specific form something unknown/not understood is explained by comparison with something known/understood. All the unquestioned parables have that comparison.
All kinds of suppositions have been presented about what each person represented. Do you know why the rich man was in hades? He violated a specific commandment.

Deuteronomy 15:7-8

(7) If there be among you a poor man of one of thy brethren within any of thy gates in thy land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thine heart, nor shut thine hand from thy poor brother:

(8) But thou shalt open thine hand wide unto him, and shalt surely lend him sufficient for his need, in that which he wanteth.
In Bulllinger's 1889 book Figures of Speech Used in the Bible, the author identifies 217 figures of speech including parable. He does not identify Lazarus and the rich man as a parable.
Bullinger isn't the all time exclusive authority on the subject. The story of The Rich Man and Lazarus isn't that much different than the story of The Prodigal Son in the way it's laid out. Also I don't think it's a coincidence that the two stories told in Luke 16 start out with "There was a certain rich man".

“There was a certain rich man" Luke 16:1

“There was a certain rich man" Luke 16:19
 
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