THE TRUTH ABOUT THE STATE OF THE DEAD?

[BNR32FAN]

We're told that when the breath or spirit separates from the body, that it returns to God.

Where is this?

 

[Butch5]

I’m not misunderstanding those verses. I am taking a plain text reading and understanding of those verses.

Those verses very plainly say Moses was present on the mountain with Jesus. That’s your problem because Moses on the mountain with Jesus is inconsistent with your theory. And you’ll need more than a mere proclamation the verse isn’t to be understood by a plain text meaning.



Yes, the reason is an answer is irrelevant. A particular theory X may be shown to be false by some fact. While the fact that falsified a theory cannot at the moment be adequately explained doesn’t mean the theory X isn’t falsified.

So, to use Popper Falsification, one counterfactual shows a theory is false. All swans are white. The observance of a black swan eatablishes the statement false. Now, it may not be understood how a black swan came to exist at the time but the existence of the black swan disproves the statement.

Same here. I do not have to understand or have an answer. The fact is Moses on the mountain top with Jesus disproves a state of unconsciousness after death.



There’s no showing my reading of the plain text is incorrect. None.



The plain text says Moses was walking with Jesus. In fact, Moses was talking to Jesus about Jesus’ departure from Jerusalem. There’s nothing in the text to indicate Moses wasn’t there.

Yeah, there is. Jesus told the disciples it was a vision. Also, Peter said it was Christ's coming with power. That's the Kingdom.

It's obvious that He wasn't returning for the second coming when He hadn't even left from His first coming. That tells us that it was something other than an actual event. Thus, Jesus' words,

And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. (Matt. 17:9 KJV)

You can deny it and say I don't have to prove it. However, It's clear that it wasn't an actual event.

 

[Butch5]

Where is this?

It's in Ecc 12

5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:
6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (Eccl. 12:5-7 KJV)

It says the spirit or breath returns to God who gave it. We saw that God gave the breath of life to Adam in Gen 2:7.

 

[Butch5]

Those verses very plainly say Moses was present on the mountain with Jesus. That’s your problem because Moses on the mountain with Jesus is inconsistent with your theory. And you’ll need more than a mere proclamation the verse isn’t to be understood by a plain text meaning.



Yes, the reason is an answer is irrelevant. A particular theory X may be shown to be false by some fact. While the fact that falsified a theory cannot at the moment be adequately explained doesn’t mean the theory X isn’t falsified.

So, to use Popper Falsification, one counterfactual shows a theory is false. All swans are white. The observance of a black swan eatablishes the statement false. Now, it may not be understood how a black swan came to exist at the time but the existence of the black swan disproves the statement.

Same here. I do not have to understand or have an answer. The fact is Moses on the mountain top with Jesus disproves a state of unconsciousness after death.

I agree that one negative can disprove any number of positives. The problem is, your one negative is not a fact, but rather, your interpretation of something you read. So, unless you can prove beyond doubt that Moses was in fact alive on that mountain, you're just giving opinion. I doubt you were there so there's really no way you can prove that Moses was actually there and alive at that time.

 

[Davy]

I do not believe in soul sleep. According to the scriptures the body returns to the dust and the Spirit (breath of life) returns to God who gave it. Most of us, wait in the grave until the resurrection at the second coming.

So your idea of the Spirit does not contain one's soul?

If you say 'no', then it means you heed the Jew's religion about this matter.

If you say 'yes', then it means you agree with Lord Jesus in Matthew 10:28, etc.

 

[Davy]

Jesus didn't say anything about the soul continuing after death.

Yes, Jesus did reveal that the soul continues to have life even if the flesh body is killed (Matthew 10:28). Not only did He reveal it in that Scripture, He especially revealed it with His story about the poor beggar Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16. And that's not to mention also what He said to the malefactor crucified with Him that believed on Him, that that... day he would be with Him in Paradise (Luke 23:43).

So you've been given ample Scripture proof, even by Lord Jesus, that our soul, continues, even after death of our flesh body.

 

[Davy]

Firstly, that passage is the word of God. Are you trying to refute the word of God?

That's a stupid ploy on your part. I show you the John 3 Scripture evidence, and you treat that as going against... God's Word?!@$%? What idiocy is that?

Jesus didn't say anything about "our" spirit being born again. He told Nicodemus he had to be born again. Jesus said Nicodemus had to be born of water and the Spirit. There's nothing there about Nicodemus' spirit.

The "our" spirit is the breath of life from God. It is something of God, not man. Man is not a spirit.

The idea of our 'spirit' being "born again" is EXACTLY what Lord Jesus was pointing to!

John 3:3-10
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus saith unto Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"

The Pharisee Nicodemus of course did not understand this spiritual matter, because he was obviously brought up in the Jew's religion. And according to the Jews, one's soul only manifests with material matter, i.e., a flesh body, which is basically making the idea of the 'soul' a MATERIAL OBJECT.

5 Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Right there, in verse 6, Lord Jesus made a clear distinction between our flesh, and our "spirit" which is "born again" by The Spirit. That is a definition of the two different dimensions of existence written of in God's Holy Writ. This earthly dimension is of material matter, i.e., like what our flesh bodies are made of. But the heavenly dimension is made up of Spirit, which is what our individual "spirit" is made of.

A believer on The Father and The Son, their "spirit" inside their flesh is literally "born again" by The Spirit.

Jesus is NOT saying our flesh is born again. That is however, how Nicodemus understood Him which is wrong.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, 'Ye must be born again.'
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

Just to make sure Nicodemus understood that Jesus was NOT pointing to the flesh being born again, Jesus compared being 'born again' of the Spirit to invisible wind, pointing to the heavenly dimension.

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto Him, "How can these things be?"
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, "Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?"
KJV

Obviously, the Jew's religion had muddied to Nicodemus what The Old Testament actually taught about the two different dimensions of existence, the earthly compared to the heavenly. And Lord Jesus commented on why someone like Nicodemus didn't know these things.

 

[Butch5]

Yes, Jesus did reveal that the soul continues to have life even if the flesh body is killed (Matthew 10:28). Not only did He reveal it in that Scripture, He especially revealed it with His story about the poor beggar Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16. And that's not to mention also what He said to the malefactor crucified with Him that believed on Him, that that... day he would be with Him in Paradise (Luke 23:43).

So you've been given ample Scripture proof, even by Lord Jesus, that our soul, continues, even after death of our flesh body.

Or, you're misunderstanding the Scriptures. Show me where Jesus said the soul continues after death.

 

[Butch5]

That's a stupid ploy on your part. I show you the John 3 Scripture evidence, and you treat that as going against... God's Word?!@$%? What idiocy is that?

No, you said,

"That's Old Testament Jew reasoning that the Pharisees believed, and is still taught by orthodox Judaism. It is not Christianity. And it's very... easy to reveal it as fallacy."

You dismissed the teaching of the Old Testament. That was the reason for the question. The ploy is here with you trying to side step the question.

The idea of our 'spirit' being "born again" is EXACTLY what Lord Jesus was pointing to!

John 3:3-10
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus saith unto Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"

The Pharisee Nicodemus of course did not understand this spiritual matter, because he was obviously brought up in the Jew's religion. And according to the Jews, one's soul only manifests with material matter, i.e., a flesh body, which is basically making the idea of the 'soul' a MATERIAL OBJECT.

5 Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Right there, in verse 6, Lord Jesus made a clear distinction between our flesh, and our "spirit" which is "born again" by The Spirit. That is a definition of the two different dimensions of existence written of in God's Holy Writ. This earthly dimension is of material matter, i.e., like what our flesh bodies are made of. But the heavenly dimension is made up of Spirit, which is what our individual "spirit" is made of.

A believer on The Father and The Son, their "spirit" inside their flesh is literally "born again" by The Spirit.

You might want to read that again. There's not clear distinction between "our" flesh and spirit. Jesus is speaking of modes of birth. One is the birth as child. The other is the Resurrection which is done by God via the Spirit.

Jesus is NOT saying our flesh is born again. That is however, how Nicodemus understood Him which is wrong.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, 'Ye must be born again.'
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

He's absolutely speaking of the flesh benign born again. That's what resurrection is.

Just to make sure Nicodemus understood that Jesus was NOT pointing to the flesh being born again, Jesus compared being 'born again' of the Spirit to invisible wind, pointing to the heavenly dimension.

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto Him, "How can these things be?"
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, "Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?"
KJV

Obviously, the Jew's religion had muddied to Nicodemus what The Old Testament actually taught about the two different dimensions of existence, the earthly compared to the heavenly. And Lord Jesus commented on why someone like Nicodemus didn't know these things.

And obviously the Greeks religion has muddied the Bibles teaching to the modern Christian. The Heavenly Destiny idea is a Greek concept that was taught by Plato. It was the prominent belief in NT times. It corrupted the Christian faith via Gnosticism and is still doing so today.

The Kingdom of Heaven is an earthly kingdom. It'll be right here on this earth where the Resurrected believers will partake. There isn't a single passage of Scripture that says people go to Heaven when die. That was Plato.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

So your idea of the Spirit does not contain one's soul? If you say 'no', then it means you heed the Jew's religion about this matter. If you say 'yes', then it means you agree with Lord Jesus in Matthew 10:28, etc.

Sorry Davy it is not my idea it is God's Word not mine. Let's go through the scriptures if it might be helpful to the discussion and show why.

Gods Word not my word says in...

Genesis 2:7 And THE LORD GOD FORMED MAN OF THE DUST OF THE GROUND, AND BREATHED INTO HIS NOSTRILS THE BREATH OF LIFE; AND MAN BECAME A LIVING BREATHING SOUL.

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - H5315
SOUL
נֶפֶשׁ (nephesh | neh'-fesh)
Derivation: from נָפַשׁ;
Strong's: properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental)

A soul in Hebrew simply means a living breathing creature...

then latter...

Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of your face shall you eat bread, TILL YOU RETURN TO THE GROUND FOR OUT OF IT YOU WERE TAKEN; FOR DUST YOU ARE AND TO DUST YOU SHALL RETURN

again...

Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 5, Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goes to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:[6], Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.[7], Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: AND THE SPIRIT SHALL RETURN TO GOD WHO GAVE IT.

Spirit in Hebrew is the breath of life that returns to God when we die...

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - H7307
SPIRIT
רוּחַ (rûwach | roo'-akh)
Derivation: from רוּחַ;
Strong's: wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions)

.....................

Now let's look at the scripture you provided in the Greek

Matthew 10:28 [28], And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy BOTH SOUL AND BODY IN HELL.

Now in the Hebrew scriptures above as have seen that at death, the body returns to dust and the breath of life translated as spirit and soul returns back to God who gave it.

The Greek meaning of soul also means the breath of life that returns to God when we die...

Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Thayer - G5590
SOUL - GRK.
G5590 — ψυχή
ψυχῆς, ἡ (ψύχω, to breathe, blow), from Homer down, the Sept. times too many to count for נֶפֶשׁ, occasionally also for לֵב and לֵבָב;
1. breath (Latinanima), i. e.
a. the breath of life; the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing: Acts 20:10; of animals, Rev 8:9 (Gen 9:4; 35:18; ἐπιστραφήτω ψυχή τοῦ παιδαρίου, 1Kin 17:21); so also in those passages where, in accordance with the trichotomy or threefold division of human nature by the Greeks, ἡ ψυχή; is distinguished from τό πνεῦμα (see πνευαμ, 2, p. 520a (and references under the word πνεῦμα 5)), 1Thes 5:23; Heb 4:12.

................

So in all cases above according to the scriptures with the Hebrew use of the word of soul and Spirit it is used in reference to a living breathing creature who at death states that our body returns to dust and the breath of life given by God returns to God who gave it. While in the Greek from Matthew 10:28 it is a reference to the second death and the breath of life not returning to the body at the resurrection.

Hope this is helpful

 

[Davy]

Or, you're misunderstanding the Scriptures. Show me where Jesus said the soul continues after death.

You've been shown, yet you refuse to believe what's written. I cannot help you.

 

[Davy]

No, you said,

"That's Old Testament Jew reasoning that the Pharisees believed, and is still taught by orthodox Judaism. It is not Christianity. And it's very... easy to reveal it as fallacy."

You dismissed the teaching of the Old Testament. That was the reason for the question. The ploy is here with you trying to side step the question.

Nah, I dismissed THE JEW'S TEACHING about the soul from their interpretation of The Old Testament. Bigggg.... difference!

You know HOW I know it's teachings from the orthodox unbelieving Jews, even by Christian pastors who wrongly latch onto the Jew's teaching on it? Because they SKIP the New Testament evidence like I have been showing all along, LIKE Matthew 10:28; 2 Corinthians 5:1-5; Luke 16, etc. Afterall, the UNBELIEVING JEWS don't read The New Testament, they don't believe on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ.

Thus the Judaism of the orthodox Jews pretty much believes the "spirit" of Ecclesiastes 12:1-5 is only a 'force' from God that's in all things, and does not mean a soul person. But if that were true, then the "spirits in prison" of 1 Peter 3 would be false, and what Jesus said in Matthew 10:28 would be false, and what Paul taught in 2 Corinthians 5 would be false, and what Jesus said to the malefactor crucified with Him being in Paradise with Him that day, and what Jesus taught about Lazarus and the rich man in the heavenly dimension, and even what The New Testament teaches about the future resurrection, would all... be false IF what the orthodox Jews believe about it were correct.

 

[Davy]

Sorry Davy it is not my idea it is God's Word not mine. Let's go through the scriptures if it might be helpful to the discussion and show why.

Gods Word not my word says in...

Genesis 2:7 And THE LORD GOD FORMED MAN OF THE DUST OF THE GROUND, AND BREATHED INTO HIS NOSTRILS THE BREATH OF LIFE; AND MAN BECAME A LIVING BREATHING SOUL.

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - H5315
SOUL
נֶפֶשׁ (nephesh | neh'-fesh)
Derivation: from נָפַשׁ;
Strong's: properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental)

A soul in Hebrew simply means a living breathing creature...

then latter...

Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of your face shall you eat bread, TILL YOU RETURN TO THE GROUND FOR OUT OF IT YOU WERE TAKEN; FOR DUST YOU ARE AND TO DUST YOU SHALL RETURN

again...

Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 5, Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goes to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:[6], Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.[7], Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: AND THE SPIRIT SHALL RETURN TO GOD WHO GAVE IT.

Spirit in Hebrew is the breath of life that returns to God when we die...

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - H7307
SPIRIT
רוּחַ (rûwach | roo'-akh)
Derivation: from רוּחַ;
Strong's: wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions)

.....................

Now let's look at the scripture you provided in the Greek

Matthew 10:28 [28], And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy BOTH SOUL AND BODY IN HELL.

Now in the Hebrew scriptures above as have seen that at death, the body returns to dust and the breath of life translated as spirit and soul returns back to God who gave it.

The Greek meaning of soul also means the breath of life that returns to God when we die...

Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Thayer - G5590
SOUL - GRK.
G5590 — ψυχή
ψυχῆς, ἡ (ψύχω, to breathe, blow), from Homer down, the Sept. times too many to count for נֶפֶשׁ, occasionally also for לֵב and לֵבָב;
1. breath (Latinanima), i. e.
a. the breath of life; the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing: Acts 20:10; of animals, Rev 8:9 (Gen 9:4; 35:18; ἐπιστραφήτω ψυχή τοῦ παιδαρίου, 1Kin 17:21); so also in those passages where, in accordance with the trichotomy or threefold division of human nature by the Greeks, ἡ ψυχή; is distinguished from τό πνεῦμα (see πνευαμ, 2, p. 520a (and references under the word πνεῦμα 5)), 1Thes 5:23; Heb 4:12.

Hope this is helpful

Not helpful at all, because you've just denied AGAIN The New Testament evidence that the spirit is NOT just some life-force that returns back to God at death of the flesh body.

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
KJV

1 Peter 4:5-6
5 Who shall give account to Him That is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
KJV


2 Cor 5:1-8
For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now He That hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, Who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
KJV

Luke 23:42-43
42 And he said unto Jesus, "Lord, remember me when Thou comest into Thy kingdom."
43 And Jesus said unto him, "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with Me in paradise."
KJV

In 2 Corinthians 12 Apostle Paul spoke of one who was "caught up" to Paradise, which represents the heavenly dimension. What part of his being do you think was "caught up" to Paradise? His spirit, not his flesh. Paul was likely speaking of himself, for he was once stoned and left for dead. 2 Cor.12 is describing a near-death-experience.

That is what Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 is showing, because it reveals two different parts, each belonging to a different dimension. The spirit belongs to the heavenly dimension, and the flesh belongs to this earthly dimension. That Scripture shows about a "silver cord" that has to be severed for the two parts to separate at death. That even all the more... shows the difference between the two dimensions.

In Luke 16, Jesus showed that when the rich man was buried, his spirit-soul was carried to hell, where he looked across a great fixed gulf at Abraham and Lazarus.

The context of Matthew 10:28 about the "soul" is not simply about a life-giving force that is absorbed back in God as if it never existed.

Thinking that one's spirit-soul ends with flesh death is of the Devil. The reason why is because if one's soul-spirit ends when the flesh is killed, then it means the person is FOREVER GONE, NO MORE. Since Satan already knows he has been judged and sentenced to perish in the future "lake of fire", he wants as many as will to go into that fire with him! That's why he puts into the minds of the deceived that we no longer exist when our flesh dies, which is NOT what Lord Jesus showed in Matthew 10:28, nor Luke 16, nor Luke 23, and many other New Testament Scripture witnesses.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Sorry Davy it is not my idea it is God's Word not mine. Let's go through the scriptures if it might be helpful to the discussion and show why.

Gods Word not my word says in...

Genesis 2:7 And THE LORD GOD FORMED MAN OF THE DUST OF THE GROUND, AND BREATHED INTO HIS NOSTRILS THE BREATH OF LIFE; AND MAN BECAME A LIVING BREATHING SOUL.

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - H5315
SOUL
נֶפֶשׁ (nephesh | neh'-fesh)
Derivation: from נָפַשׁ;
Strong's: properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental)

A soul in Hebrew simply means a living breathing creature...

then latter...

Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of your face shall you eat bread, TILL YOU RETURN TO THE GROUND FOR OUT OF IT YOU WERE TAKEN; FOR DUST YOU ARE AND TO DUST YOU SHALL RETURN

again...

Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 5, Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goes to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:[6], Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.[7], Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: AND THE SPIRIT SHALL RETURN TO GOD WHO GAVE IT.

Spirit in Hebrew is the breath of life that returns to God when we die...

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - H7307
SPIRIT
רוּחַ (rûwach | roo'-akh)
Derivation: from רוּחַ;
Strong's: wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions)

.....................

Now let's look at the scripture you provided in the Greek

Matthew 10:28 [28], And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy BOTH SOUL AND BODY IN HELL.

Now in the Hebrew scriptures above as have seen that at death, the body returns to dust and the breath of life translated as spirit and soul returns back to God who gave it.

The Greek meaning of soul also means the breath of life that returns to God when we die...

Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Thayer - G5590
SOUL - GRK.
G5590 — ψυχή
ψυχῆς, ἡ (ψύχω, to breathe, blow), from Homer down, the Sept. times too many to count for נֶפֶשׁ, occasionally also for לֵב and לֵבָב;
1. breath (Latinanima), i. e.
a. the breath of life; the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing: Acts 20:10; of animals, Rev 8:9 (Gen 9:4; 35:18; ἐπιστραφήτω ψυχή τοῦ παιδαρίου, 1Kin 17:21); so also in those passages where, in accordance with the trichotomy or threefold division of human nature by the Greeks, ἡ ψυχή; is distinguished from τό πνεῦμα (see πνευαμ, 2, p. 520a (and references under the word πνεῦμα 5)), 1Thes 5:23; Heb 4:12.

Hope this is helpful

Your response...

Not helpful at all, because you've just denied AGAIN The New Testament evidence that the spirit is NOT just some life-force that returns back to God at death of the flesh body.

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
KJV

1 Peter 4:5-6
5 Who shall give account to Him That is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
KJV


2 Cor 5:1-8
For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now He That hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, Who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
KJV

Luke 23:42-43
42 And he said unto Jesus, "Lord, remember me when Thou comest into Thy kingdom."
43 And Jesus said unto him, "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with Me in paradise."
KJV

In 2 Corinthians 12 Apostle Paul spoke of one who was "caught up" to Paradise, which represents the heavenly dimension. What part of his being do you think was "caught up" to Paradise? His spirit, not his flesh. Paul was likely speaking of himself, for he was once stoned and left for dead. 2 Cor.12 is describing a near-death-experience.

That is what Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 is showing, because it reveals two different parts, each belonging to a different dimension. The spirit belongs to the heavenly dimension, and the flesh belongs to this earthly dimension. That Scripture shows about a "silver cord" that has to be severed for the two parts to separate at death. That even all the more... shows the difference between the two dimensions.

In Luke 16, Jesus showed that when the rich man was buried, his spirit-soul was carried to hell, where he looked across a great fixed gulf at Abraham and Lazarus.

The context of Matthew 10:28 about the "soul" is not simply about a life-giving force that is absorbed back in God as if it never existed.

Thinking that one's spirit-soul ends with flesh death is of the Devil. The reason why is because if one's soul-spirit ends when the flesh is killed, then it means the person is FOREVER GONE, NO MORE. Since Satan already knows he has been judged and sentenced to perish in the future "lake of fire", he wants as many as will to go into that fire with him! That's why he puts into the minds of the deceived that we no longer exist when our flesh dies, which is NOT what Lord Jesus showed in Matthew 10:28, nor Luke 16, nor Luke 23, and many other New Testament Scripture witnesses.

How does this address anything in the post you are quoting from? - It doesn't and BTW the post you were quoting from and ignored was scripture. It is not me that is denying anything. I posted Gods' Word which was not my words but God's which you seem not to believe with your words that are not Gods' Word. Of course you are free to believe as you wish. I will leave that between you and God and we will agree to disagree.

 

[Butch5]

You've been shown, yet you refuse to believe what's written. I cannot help you.

What you've shown is that you don't understand those passages It always amuses me when people don't consider that they could be wrong. "The Bible says xyz, because that's how I understand it". The Bible only says xyz if you understand it correctly. If you don't, then "you" say xyz and not the Bible. That you didn't show me where Jesus said the soul continues after death shows me that it's not the Bible that says it, but rather, It's you that says it.

 

[Butch5]

Nah, I dismissed THE JEW'S TEACHING about the soul from their interpretation of The Old Testament. Bigggg.... difference!

But, I didn't give the Jew's teaching about the Soul. I gave you Scripture. You rejected it. Instead you tried to use the NT and impose a Greek philosophical idea onto it to make it fit what you believe.

You know HOW I know it's teachings from the orthodox unbelieving Jews, even by Christian pastors who wrongly latch onto the Jew's teaching on it? Because they SKIP the New Testament evidence like I have been showing all along, LIKE Matthew 10:28; 2 Corinthians 5:1-5; Luke 16, etc. Afterall, the UNBELIEVING JEWS don't read The New Testament, they don't believe on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ.

Thus the Judaism of the orthodox Jews pretty much believes the "spirit" of Ecclesiastes 12:1-5 is only a 'force' from God that's in all things, and does not mean a soul person. But if that were true, then the "spirits in prison" of 1 Peter 3 would be false, and what Jesus said in Matthew 10:28 would be false, and what Paul taught in 2 Corinthians 5 would be false, and what Jesus said to the malefactor crucified with Him being in Paradise with Him that day, and what Jesus taught about Lazarus and the rich man in the heavenly dimension, and even what The New Testament teaches about the future resurrection, would all... be false IF what the orthodox Jews believe about it were correct.

Now consider all of this you said about the Jew's understanding and consider that Jesus and all of the apostles were Jews. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say they probably had a better understanding of what they believe than you do. So, I go back to my original statement, you're misunderstanding those passages. If you don't understand them the way Jesus and the apostles did, you're wrong.

 

[Davy]

Your response...


How does this address anything in the post you are quoting from? - It doesn't and BTW the post you were quoting from and ignored was scripture. It is not me that is denying anything. I posted Gods' Word which was not my words but God's which you seem not to believe with your words that are not Gods' Word. Of course you are free to believe as you wish. I will leave that between you and God and we will agree to disagree.

You mean why do I keep going to THE NEW TESTAMENT for proof that our soul with spirit continues in life in the heavenly dimension after flesh death? Because that's where we are given clear descriptions about it.

But YOU wanted me to stay in the OLD Testament, didn't you? Nah, I brought up the New Testament Scripture evidence many posts ago, and that still has not been addressed yet.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You mean why do I keep going to THE NEW TESTAMENT for proof that our soul with spirit continues in life in the heavenly dimension after flesh death? Because that's where we are given clear descriptions about it.

But YOU wanted me to stay in the OLD Testament, didn't you? Nah, I brought up the New Testament Scripture evidence many posts ago, and that still has not been addressed yet.

Thanks but no. That was not what I was saying at all. According to the new testament scriptures;
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. I believe all of God's Word.

Take Care.

 

[Davy]

But, I didn't give the Jew's teaching about the Soul. I gave you Scripture. You rejected it. Instead you tried to use the NT and impose a Greek philosophical idea onto it to make it fit what you believe.

Yeah you did. You simply used the limited Old Testament Scripture applied over New Testament Scripture, bypassing Scripture I have mentioned SEVERAL TIMES already, like 2 Corinthians 5, 1 Peter 3 & 4, Luke 16, Luke 23:43.

The Jew's belief relies on Genesis 2:7 that the soul comes into existence by God breathing the 'breath of life' into Adam's flesh. I believe what that Scripture says too, but I well know it is NOT describing the two parts of 'spirit' and 'flesh' completely.

Our spirit with soul can be separated from our flesh. But our spirit with soul CANNOT be separated.

Yet the orthodox Jew's teaching is that the soul-spirit is dead when flesh dies, just because they believe that spirit-soul-breath part that goes back to God is only about animate life that is in all living creatures. Thus they treat it as a MATERIAL EARTHLY OBJECT.

And that's what those like yourself will not understand, that our 'spirit' is of the heavenly dimension, NOT this earthly dimension of matter. If you don't believe that, then you believe that earthly matter (breath) goes back to God, so how's that? Impossible, that is, of course. Or didn't you know that 'air' is a gas that is part of this earthly material realm?

And per Hebrews 11, and John 4, those in Christ Jesus well know that God is NOT made up of earthly material matter. God is a Spirit, like Jesus said in John 4.

 

[Butch5]

Yeah you did. You simply used the limited Old Testament Scripture applied over New Testament Scripture, bypassing Scripture I have mentioned SEVERAL TIMES already, like 2 Corinthians 5, 1 Peter 3 & 4, Luke 16, Luke 23:43.

The Jew's belief relies on Genesis 2:7 that the soul comes into existence by God breathing the 'breath of life' into Adam's flesh. I believe what that Scripture says too, but I well know it is NOT describing the two parts of 'spirit' and 'flesh' completely.

Our spirit with soul can be separated from our flesh. But our spirit with soul CANNOT be separated.

Yet the orthodox Jew's teaching is that the soul-spirit is dead when flesh dies, just because they believe that spirit-soul-breath part that goes back to God is only about animate life that is in all living creatures. Thus they treat it as a MATERIAL EARTHLY OBJECT.

And that's what those like yourself will not understand, that our 'spirit' is of the heavenly dimension, NOT this earthly dimension of matter. If you don't believe that, then you believe that earthly matter (breath) goes back to God, so how's that? Impossible, that is, of course. Or didn't you know that 'air' is a gas that is part of this earthly material realm?

And per Hebrews 11, and John 4, those in Christ Jesus well know that God is NOT made up of earthly material matter. God is a Spirit, like Jesus said in John 4.

See, you proved my point. You don't understand spirit and soul, thus you don't understand the passages you quoted. I could explain it all to you but I fear it would be a waste of time as I get the impression that you're not interested.