• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

Featured The Spectacular Pre-Tribulation Rapture

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Quasar92, Aug 28, 2017.

  1. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

    +1,977
    New Zealand
    Pentecostal
    Married
    Just post for us ONE verse that actually says God will take the Church to heaven.

    All what Jesus and the Apostles and especially the OT prophets, said about the last days: clearly refutes the idea of a removal of the Lord's people.

    We must be tried and tested and if you want to escape that, then you are not a son of God. Hebrews 12:8
     
  2. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +2,277
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    no, no, no....bad, bad, bad. Luke 21:34-36 and Revelation 3:10
     
  3. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

    +1,977
    New Zealand
    Pentecostal
    Married
    Your rebuttals are just as useless as Quasars!
    Jesus and the Apostles made it plain that the ethnic people lost their claim to the Kingdom. Matthew 21:43 The holy people of God are now every individual who believes in God and is born again in the Spirit of Jesus.
    Therefore, we Christians; as the Israelites of God, His Overcomers, are the inheritors of God's promises to Israel. Proved by: Ephesians 1:11-14, Romans 2:29, Romans 8:16-18, Galatians 3:29, +
    This truth makes a rapture to heaven impossible, as it is Christians as God's holy people, who will occupy all the holy Land until Jesus comes. Romans 9:26
     
  4. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +2,277
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Christians are new creations in Christ, neither Jew nor Gentile. Jesus said to store up treasure in heaven.because there too will your heart be.

    Matthew 6
    19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

    20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

    21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

    Israelite's are the blood descendants of Jacob, Israel. As such, they have been promised the land of Israel as their forever. It is such a minute petty thing for Christians to even want to replace them to that promise. God can make a million lands. God can do anything. He can speak, and create a 1967 Camaro - exactly - from nothing - complete with 5W30 motor oil. A person will grow tired of "things" over time. They are an illusion to real treasure, which is...

    The treasure of Christians has nothing to do with this earth or any.... thing. Our treasure is the Lord Jesus Christ - not what he creates. We have the greatest treasure there could ever be, and that is the Holy Spirit's presence in our souls, who lives in us, forever... whether in this current body, or absent from this body, or in the incorruptible eternal body to come.


    1Corinthians6:
    17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

    Being a Jew.... or Gentile, is nothing. Being a Christian is everything. We each should be praying night and day - thank you, Lord Jesus, for coming into this world to save me.


     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2017
  5. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    +6,360
    Christian
    Married
    In the parable of the tenants from Matthew 21:33-43 the one who is the ultimate fulfillment of Israel reveals that the land belongs to Him.

    He also said the kingdom would be taken away from those who reject the "chief cornerstone" and it would be given to another nation bringing forth fruit.


    In 1 Peter 2:4-10 Peter reveals who is this "Holy nation" who accepted the "chief cornerstone".

    Those who think God has made promises only fulfilled to a group of people based on bloodline, but who reject His Son, need to read the scripture below.


    1Ti 1:4  nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith. 




    1Jn 2:22  Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 
    1Jn 2:23  Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 


    Those who reject God's Son are no different than the Israelites who worshipped Baal, during the time of Elijah.
    What happened to those Israelites?


    .
     
  6. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +2,277
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Nobody is saying a person is saved by virtue of being a Jew... or Gentile.

    That generation of Israel lost out on the Kingdom of God, but another nation of Israel, another generation, will receive the Kingdom of God - which is this generation, albeit they are not there yet.

    To enter the Kingdom of God, a person has to be born again, a new creation in Christ, neither Jew nor Gentile.

    BAB2, is it necessary for Christians to say "blessed is he who comes in the name of Lord", referring to Jesus before he comes again to this earth? That message isn't to us. It wouldn't make sense to be to us.
     
  7. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,932
    Christian
    Single

    The tribulation period of time comes from the 70 weeks prophecy in Dan.9:27. Review the following. Your reference to 1335 days is out of context and properly described in Dan.12.

    Seventy Weeks Are Determined Upon Thy People!

    The following is a complete analysis Of the amazing prophecy found in the book of Daniel. We will begin in Dan.9:24 where the angel Gabriel is giving this prophecy to Daniel, the prophet.

    "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and the prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

    1. Referrence here is to what God has decreed upon Daniel's people, Israel. [It has nothing at all to do with the church!]

    2. See Gen.29:27 to explain that this biblical term of "one week" equals seven years. So the 70 weeks here, represents a total of 490 years, or 7 X 70.]

    Vs.25. "Know, therefore, and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah, the Prince, shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks; [49 + 420 + 14 = 483 years, covering 69 of the 70 weeks,] the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times." [See Neh.2:1-8.]

    According to Sir Robert Armstrong, of the Royal Observatory, Greenwich, England, the exact date of King Artaxerxes, of Persia, gave the decree for some of the Israeli exiles to return to Jerusalem on March 14, 446 BC.

    [From 446 B.C. to Messiah the Prince, in Dan.9:25, equates into 69 Weeks, or 483 years, leaving the 70th and final Week of 7 years yet to be fulfilled].

    From the 69 weeks [Of years] from above, or 483 years, multiplied by the 360 days of the Hebrew year, equals 173,880 days.

    Vs.26. "And after threescore and two weeks..."[Which followed the first 7 weeks, or 49 years of vs 25, referring to the dedication of the completed building of the city and walls of Jerusalem, in the 32nd year of the Persian king, Artaxerxes, in the 7th month, [Neh.5:14 and 8:1] leaving 62 more weeks, or 434 more years [For a total of 69 weeks, or 483 years] to the triumphant entry of Jesus into Jerusalem]. Culminating in a total of 69 weeks, or 483 years from the Persian King, Artaxerxes Decree on March 14th, 446 BC. and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary, and the end of it shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

    After Jesus was crucified, the Roman [prince] Titus comes with his legions and destroyed Jerusalem and the second temple in 70 AD, after bitter fighting, scattering Israel and the Jewish people into their diaspora.

    To establish the time Jesus began His ministry, and approximate age, we find the evidence in Luke 3:1 and 3:23.

    Lk.3:1. "Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilot being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip, tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Thrachonitis and Lysanias, the tetrarch of Abilene, Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John, the son of Zacharias, in the wilderness."

    Which brings us to 29 AD and Jesus is about 30 years of age.

    Lk.3:23. "And Jesus Himself began to be about 30 years of age, [When all Jewish priests begin their priesthood.]being [as was supposed] the son of Joseph, who was the son of Heli,"

    Back to Daniel's prophecy of 70 weeks of years decreed upon his people, for a moment. We have determined as we fast close on all of the 69 weeks, 483 years, and 173,880 days in the Hebrew 360 day year as to exactly where it will take us.

    Jn.12:12-13. "On the next day many people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, Took branches of palm trees and and went forth to meet Him, and cried Hosanna! Blessed is the King of Israel, that cometh in the name of the Lord." April 6th 32 AD. [According to the Royal Observatory, Greenwich, England.]

    Exactly 173,880 days from King Artaxerxes of Persia, decree of March 14,446 BC. [From Neh.2:1-8. Based on the 360 day Hebrew year. Which makes no difference whatever from a 365.2425 day year, when all the necessary corrections are made].

    360 X 483 = 173,880 days.

    1. 32 years [AD] X 365 days in our year = 11,680 days.
    2. 445 years [BC] X 365 days in our year = 162,425 days.
    3. Total 174,105 days divided by 365 = 477 years.
    4. Plus 24 days between the date of the decree in 445 BC and Jesus cut-off in 32 AD = 477 years, 24 days
    5. Subtract one year because there is no year zero between 1 BC and 1 AD. = 476 years, 24 days.
    6. 476 years X 365 days = 173,740 days +24 = 173,764 Days
    7. Add days of the leap years over 476 years. Divided by 4 = 119 days = 173,883 days
    8. Subtract 1/128 Calendar year day for every solar year: Leap year omitted every 128 years.= -3 days = 173,880 days!

    Which reveals the 360 day prophetic year of Israel is the very same as our present 365.2425 day year when all the corrections have been made to the latter.

    The 70th week of Daniel's prophecy, of the final 7 years, is the Tribulation, or Jacob's Trouble [Jer.30:7.] which will conclude the 490 year prophecy decreed upon his people, with a 2,000 year parenthetic in between, that covers the entire church age!

    Dan.9:27. "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week; and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."


    Quasar 92
     
  8. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,932
    Christian
    Single

    You have been provided Scriptural proof through the teachings of Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul about the coming pre-trib rapture o the Church. But it is clear, your M/O towards them, "is don't bother me with the facts." And you just keep on delivering your false assessment of end time prophecy! See Jn.14:2-3, 28! Review the following from post #3 below:

    >>>Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church

    The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

    The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:

    1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

    2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

    3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

    4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.<<<


    Quasar92
     
  9. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    +6,360
    Christian
    Married
    Tremendous confusion is created by taking an Old Testament verse and making a claim about what "makes sense" to us, without viewing it through the eyes of the New Testament writers.

    Who are "us"?

    The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

    On the Day of Pentecost Peter addressed the crowd as "men of Judea" and then "men of Israel" and in Acts 2:36 as "all the house of Israel". On that day about 3,000 Israelites accepted the New Covenant and fulfilled many of the Old Testament prophecies similar to the one you mentioned above. When the Church first began almost all of its members were Israelites. The Gentiles were grafted into the New Covenant several years later.

    The most important genealogy in the Bible is found in Matthew 1:1. This is confirmed by Paul in Galatians 3:16.

    "us" are grafted into the promises of the New Covenant made in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

    There is no Plan B, outside of the New Covenant Church.

    .
     
  10. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +2,277
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Q, the text of Daniel 9:27 does not say Tribulation anywhere in it. Nor does it say Great Tribulation anywhere in Daniel 9:27.

    The 7 years are not called 7 year tribulation anywhere in the Bible. It is a concoction by some Christians to call the 7 years either "the tribulation period" or "7 years tribulation" or "the tribulation".

    But what is in the bible is great tribulation. And the ONLY tie to the great tribulation is the abomination spoken of by Daniel the prophet. Which Daniel 12 DOES give a time indicator - 1335 days. Blessed is he who remains until the 1335th day.

    Pre-trib is a misnomer.... since the term is not found in the bible describing a certain period. What it should be called is the Pre-70th week view.

    Post-trib is a misnomer as well.

    Mid-trib is a misnomer also.

    My view, which I came to after 40 years of arguing this stuff till the chickens come home to roost, and knowing all the rationale and arguments that pre-trib, post trib, mid trib present and the flaws of each - my view I call the "anytime" rapture view because it is based on Luke 21:34-36, and "any time" is found in the text. Unlike your pre-tribulation view.

    The rapture can happen anytime between now and when it actually does. It might be before the 70th weeks start. Or it might not be.

    Luke 21:
    34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

    35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

    36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

    In both the post trib view and the pre trib view - people start getting fanatical about it... that theirs is the only legimate view.... when both views are based on the term the tribulation (period) which not even found in the bible. :doh:
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2017
  11. mike buckman

    mike buckman New Member

    23
    +10
    United States
    Christian
    Divorced
    Dont you see how you are using speculation and conjecture? Johns Vision, the door opened was not symbolic of any rapture. You are speculating that. I couldnt even read your full post because every line was speculation and conjecture up until where I quit.


    Let me just tell you that when the mark of the beast comes out, the people who dole out the actual mark might argue with a christian something like this: "No, of course this isn't the mark of the beast. You would have been raptured out already if it was! Isnt that what your Bible says?"

    Fact of the matter is that it is NOT what the Bible says at all! Quite the opposite. The pre tribulation rapture is purely conjecture of scripture and speculation of what some scriptures mean. Thats all.
     
  12. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,398
    Canada
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Welcome to the heart and soul of dispensational futurism.
     
  13. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,932
    Christian
    Single

    Where, may I ask, did you obtain qualifications to teach the Bible, let alone eschatology? Review the following:

    Nt.24:21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will."


    Quasar92
     
  14. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +2,277
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Why are you so hung up on "qualifications to teach the bible" ? God makes some persons teachers as He wills. He makes some prophets. He makes some pastors. Take it up with Him.

    There are no elites in this forum. Everyone here are equals.

    You wrote... Review the following:

    Nt.24:21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will."

    It says "great tribulation" not tribulation. In Revelation 7, it says "great tribulation, not tribulation.

    14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    Q, there is not a term 7 year tribulation in the bible. The pre-trib rapture term is a mis-nomer, as is post-trib and mid-trib. The correct thing to say would be pre-70th week, post-70th week, mid-70th week.
     
  15. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,932
    Christian
    Single

    According to what Scriptural verification to support your above meaningless opinions?

    Review the following four post link with the Biblical teaching of the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, as taught by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul.

    The first two posts cover the Scriptural facts, the third post provides the chronological order of end time events and the fourth post is a listings of men of God from every walk of Christian teachings who fully endorse the pre-trib rapture of the Church.

    With that having been said, provide me with your Scripturally based views refuting any part of those posts, or it is your views that are false, you need to do some serious rethinking on.

    The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church - a deeper walk...


    Quasar92
     
  16. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,932
    Christian
    Single

    According to your ongoing argument that has nothing to do with the subject of this thread, there is no need for those who work hard at study and research to bring the proper meaning and interpretation of the Bible to those who want to know and to learn.

    How sad the conditions would be without them. As it was in early aviation, before planes were equipped with flight instruments, the pilots would hang a plumb bob from the ceiling of the cockpit and fly the plane from it when visibility was not clear. You've answered my question, loud and clear.


    Quasar92
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2017
  17. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +2,277
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Q, what is paramount in this forum is pursuit of the truth regarding eschatology.
     
  18. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,932
    Christian
    Single

    Your argument is from an empty wagon. The Great Tribulation is the final 3.5 years of the seven year tribulation represented by Daniel, in 9:27. Amplified in Jesus Olivet Discourse in Mt.24; Mk.13 and in Lk.21. As well as being amplified even more so in Rev.6.

    As for your remark that truth is sought here on this forum, is what I consider, you're calling me a liar. FYI, you best be aware of your own views you propogate without any formal qualifications to support your authority to do so.


    Quasar92
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2017
  19. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +2,277
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Q, I copied and pasted the exact text from the bible and underlined that it said "great tribulation" not "tribulation". If you can find the term "7year tribulation" in the bible, then provide the verse and underline it. But you are not going to be able to because it is not there.
     
  20. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    +6,360
    Christian
    Married
    Based on the logic you often use about being "qualified" to teach the Bible, Dr. Kelly Varner would be more qualified than you, since he has attained his "doctoral degree" in Theology.

    Therefore, based on your logic, he must be the expert.
    Let us see what he says about Daniel chapter 9.


    Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner





    .
     
Loading...