The Spectacular Pre-Tribulation Rapture

[Quasar92]

“Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, cruel, with fury and burning anger, to make the land a desolation; and He will exterminate its sinners from it. The earth is broken asunder, the earth is split through, the earth is shaken violently. The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard and it totters like a shack, for its transgression is heavy upon it, and it will fall, never to rise again.” (Isaiah 13:9; 24:19-20 emphasis added)

Scripture assures us through the prophet Isaiah that the “day of the Lord” is in reference to the seven-year Tribulation. Its purpose is to exterminate unrepentant sinners and destroy wickedness out of the earth for good. The judgments of the Tribulation will forever destroy the transgressions of the godless masses—“never to rise again.”

Another major purpose of the day of the Lord is to bring about worldwide revival through the efforts of the 144,000 Jewish witnesses, specially anointed and protected by God (Revelation 7:1-4).

Furthermore, another crucially important objective of the Tribulation is to fracture the stubborn will of the Jewish nation—Israel (the holy people) and bring about national regeneration (Daniel 12:5-7). Those who remain rebellious will be eliminated, making it possible for an entirely new nation (which has been regenerated) to enter into the Millennium and be given the Promised Land by Jesus Himself. Once Israel recognizes Jesus as her Messiah, repents and cries out to Him, the Lord will return and the Tribulation will come to an end (Hosea 5:15; 6:1-3).

In the book of Revelation John is caught-up to heaven which is symbolic of the Church being caught-up to heaven before the Tribulation begins:

Revelation 4:1 – “After these things I saw, and behold, a door opened in heaven, and the first voice that I heard, a voice as of a trumpet speaking with me, one saying, ‘Come up hither, and I will show thee the things which must come to pass hereafter.’”

It’s time for the Church to go home: The door in heaven is opened signaling that believers of the Church Age are about to be caught-up to heaven. When a voice of a trumpet says, Come up hither, it is the command for believers to be raptured, as Paul wrote in 1 Thessalonians:

“For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

The voice of the archangel will shout, Come up hither, and all living believers will be raptured; the dead in Christ will rise first to meet Jesus in the air. The Church is seen here in heaven, represented by the 24 elders and also as the myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands (Rev. 4:4, 10-11; 5:14). Yet, she is not seen again until chapter 19 of Revelation.

The Church is not seen during the Tribulation because she has been taken to heaven. Revelation chapter 4 begins with the statement, After these things—that is, after the Church Age.

Another indicator that the Church is not here during the Tribulation is this important sequence of Scripture: After each of the messages of the seven churches, God says, He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.

But in Revelation 13:9, long after the events of chapter 4, God says, If any man hath an ear, let him hear. He leaves off the words what the Spirit saith to the churches because the Church is no longer on earth, she is with the Lord in heaven.

We also know the Church does not go into the Tribulation because of powerful symbols of her in the Old Testament. Enoch is a symbol of the Church because he was “caught away” just prior to the flood of Noah’s day (Genesis 5:24). Noah is a symbol of the Rapture because he was carried away to safety in the Ark before the flood came.

Another symbol of the Church in the Old Testament is Lot and his family. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit visited Abraham and told him that Sodom would be destroyed. Abraham tried to talk God out of destroying the city and begged that if just ten righteous people could be found in it that it would be spared (Genesis 18:20-33).

God agreed, but only one righteous man—Lot, was found. The Lord sent angels as His emissaries to Sodom to rescue Lot and his family. They acted on His behalf and forcibly took Lot, his wife and their two daughters out of Sodom before destroying Sodom, Gomorrah and the three other cities nearby in the valley of Siddim—Admah, Zeboiim and Bela (Zoar) as cited in Genesis 14:8.

“Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven, and He overthrew those cities, and all thevalley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.” (Genesis 19:24-25)

We hear the words Come up hither again later in Revelation chapter 11; the Two Witnesses are raptured during the Tribulation. But that is the only rapture within the time span of the seven-year Tribulation prior to Christ’s Second Coming.

“And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, ‘Come up hither. And they went up into heaven in the cloud; and their enemies beheld them.’” (Revelation 11:12).

These are the major positions that exist regarding the Rapture. (The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is the correct one):

Pre-Tribulation Rapture teaches Jesus Christ will rapture the Church before the start of the Tribulation.

Mid-Tribulation Rapture teaches Jesus Christ will rapture the Church at the mid-point of the Tribulation.

Post-Tribulation Rapture teaches Jesus Christ will rapture the Church at the end of the Tribulation.

Pre-Wrath Rapture teaches Jesus Christ will rapture the Church near the end of the Tribulation just before the pouring out of the wrath of God through the seven bowl plagues (Revelation 16:1).

It is important to note that nowhere in Scripture do we read that the Tribulation is anyone else’s “wrath” other than God Almighty’s and His alone. The prophesied seven-year Tribulation is God’s wrath pouring down upon an out-of-control God-rejecting world.

The terror of the Antichrist fueled by Satan is a by-product of mankind’s rejection of God, and cannot be substantiated with Scripture as Antichrist’s, Satan’s and mankind’s wrath—unless one inserts extra-biblical ideas into the text creating a false doctrine.

And there is another major and obvious problem with any of the Rapture positions outside of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture:

Jesus does not make any appearances in Scripture during the Tribulation until the marriage of the Lamb in chapter 19 which eliminates the idea of the Rapture event taking place anytime other than prior to the Tribulation.

Jesus comes to earth before the Tribulation begins to take His Church off the planet, and He returns at the end of the Tribulation at the Second Coming with His Church (Revelation 19:11-14).

The rapture of Enoch and Elijah are symbolic of the Church being raptured before Daniel’s Seventieth Week (the Tribulation) begins. These biblically recorded events are symbolic of the Church being removed before the God pours out his wrath upon the godless inhabitants of earth—the unsaved masses that remain after the Rapture of the Church.

The rapture of Enoch is not specifically called a rapture but from the following Scripture we can see that he was raptured. The Scripture simply says, “Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him” (Genesis 5:24).

Elijah was taken up in a chariot of fire in a whirlwind: “And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, which parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven” (2 Kings 2:11).

It appears that Elijah boarded the chariot of fire which was then carried up into the sky by a whirlwind—God’s whirlwind. We cannot know exactly what chariots of fire or horses of fire are, but they are cited a number times in Scripture (2 Samuel 22:11; 2 Kings 6:17-18; Psalm 68:17; 104:3; Isaiah 66:15; Jeremiah 4:13; Ezekiel 1:4-28; 10:1-22).

The promise to the church of Philadelphia to be kept from the “hour of trial” is a promise of being raptured before the start of the Tribulation.

“Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.” (Revelation 3:10 emphasis added)

Daniel’s Seventieth Week is the “hour of trial” and all believers of the Church Age must be taken out before it begins because that is the time when God pours out His judgments—His wrath.

The promise that “God appointed us not for wrath, but unto the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Thessalonians 5:9), is a confirmation that true Christians must be raptured prior to the start of the Tribulation.

Another important point is this: The twenty-four elders seen in chapters four and five of Revelation represent believers of the Church Age—which means that the Rapture must take place by Revelation chapter four—before the Tribulation (the day of the Lord) begins.


By Kit R. Olsen


Quasar92

 

[jgr]

“Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, cruel, with fury and burning anger, to make the land a desolation; and He will exterminate its sinners from it. The earth is broken asunder, the earth is split through, the earth is shaken violently. The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard and it totters like a shack, for its transgression is heavy upon it, and it will fall, never to rise again.” (Isaiah 13:9; 24:19-20 emphasis added)

Scripture assures us through the prophet Isaiah that the “day of the Lord” is in reference to the seven-year Tribulation. Its purpose is to exterminate unrepentant sinners and destroy wickedness out of the earth for good. The judgments of the Tribulation will forever destroy the transgressions of the godless masses—“never to rise again.”

Another major purpose of the day of the Lord is to bring about worldwide revival through the efforts of the 144,000 Jewish witnesses, specially anointed and protected by God (Revelation 7:1-4).

Furthermore, another crucially important objective of the Tribulation is to fracture the stubborn will of the Jewish nation—Israel (the holy people) and bring about national regeneration (Daniel 12:5-7). Those who remain rebellious will be eliminated, making it possible for an entirely new nation (which has been regenerated) to enter into the Millennium and be given the Promised Land by Jesus Himself. Once Israel recognizes Jesus as her Messiah, repents and cries out to Him, the Lord will return and the Tribulation will come to an end (Hosea 5:15; 6:1-3).

In the book of Revelation John is caught-up to heaven which is symbolic of the Church being caught-up to heaven before the Tribulation begins:

Revelation 4:1 – “After these things I saw, and behold, a door opened in heaven, and the first voice that I heard, a voice as of a trumpet speaking with me, one saying, ‘Come up hither, and I will show thee the things which must come to pass hereafter.’”

It’s time for the Church to go home: The door in heaven is opened signaling that believers of the Church Age are about to be caught-up to heaven. When a voice of a trumpet says, Come up hither, it is the command for believers to be raptured, as Paul wrote in 1 Thessalonians:

“For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

The voice of the archangel will shout, Come up hither, and all living believers will be raptured; the dead in Christ will rise first to meet Jesus in the air. The Church is seen here in heaven, represented by the 24 elders and also as the myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands (Rev. 4:4, 10-11; 5:14). Yet, she is not seen again until chapter 19 of Revelation.

The Church is not seen during the Tribulation because she has been taken to heaven. Revelation chapter 4 begins with the statement, After these things—that is, after the Church Age.

Another indicator that the Church is not here during the Tribulation is this important sequence of Scripture: After each of the messages of the seven churches, God says, He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.

But in Revelation 13:9, long after the events of chapter 4, God says, If any man hath an ear, let him hear. He leaves off the words what the Spirit saith to the churches because the Church is no longer on earth, she is with the Lord in heaven.

We also know the Church does not go into the Tribulation because of powerful symbols of her in the Old Testament. Enoch is a symbol of the Church because he was “caught away” just prior to the flood of Noah’s day (Genesis 5:24). Noah is a symbol of the Rapture because he was carried away to safety in the Ark before the flood came.

Another symbol of the Church in the Old Testament is Lot and his family. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit visited Abraham and told him that Sodom would be destroyed. Abraham tried to talk God out of destroying the city and begged that if just ten righteous people could be found in it that it would be spared (Genesis 18:20-33).

God agreed, but only one righteous man—Lot, was found. The Lord sent angels as His emissaries to Sodom to rescue Lot and his family. They acted on His behalf and forcibly took Lot, his wife and their two daughters out of Sodom before destroying Sodom, Gomorrah and the three other cities nearby in the valley of Siddim—Admah, Zeboiim and Bela (Zoar) as cited in Genesis 14:8.

“Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven, and He overthrew those cities, and all thevalley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.” (Genesis 19:24-25)

We hear the words Come up hither again later in Revelation chapter 11; the Two Witnesses are raptured during the Tribulation. But that is the only rapture within the time span of the seven-year Tribulation prior to Christ’s Second Coming.

“And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, ‘Come up hither. And they went up into heaven in the cloud; and their enemies beheld them.’” (Revelation 11:12).

These are the major positions that exist regarding the Rapture. (The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is the correct one):

Pre-Tribulation Rapture teaches Jesus Christ will rapture the Church before the start of the Tribulation.

Mid-Tribulation Rapture teaches Jesus Christ will rapture the Church at the mid-point of the Tribulation.

Post-Tribulation Rapture teaches Jesus Christ will rapture the Church at the end of the Tribulation.

Pre-Wrath Rapture teaches Jesus Christ will rapture the Church near the end of the Tribulation just before the pouring out of the wrath of God through the seven bowl plagues (Revelation 16:1).

It is important to note that nowhere in Scripture do we read that the Tribulation is anyone else’s “wrath” other than God Almighty’s and His alone. The prophesied seven-year Tribulation is God’s wrath pouring down upon an out-of-control God-rejecting world.

The terror of the Antichrist fueled by Satan is a by-product of mankind’s rejection of God, and cannot be substantiated with Scripture as Antichrist’s, Satan’s and mankind’s wrath—unless one inserts extra-biblical ideas into the text creating a false doctrine.

And there is another major and obvious problem with any of the Rapture positions outside of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture:

Jesus does not make any appearances in Scripture during the Tribulation until the marriage of the Lamb in chapter 19 which eliminates the idea of the Rapture event taking place anytime other than prior to the Tribulation.

Jesus comes to earth before the Tribulation begins to take His Church off the planet, and He returns at the end of the Tribulation at the Second Coming with His Church (Revelation 19:11-14).

The rapture of Enoch and Elijah are symbolic of the Church being raptured before Daniel’s Seventieth Week (the Tribulation) begins. These biblically recorded events are symbolic of the Church being removed before the God pours out his wrath upon the godless inhabitants of earth—the unsaved masses that remain after the Rapture of the Church.

The rapture of Enoch is not specifically called a rapture but from the following Scripture we can see that he was raptured. The Scripture simply says, “Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him” (Genesis 5:24).

Elijah was taken up in a chariot of fire in a whirlwind: “And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, which parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven” (2 Kings 2:11).

It appears that Elijah boarded the chariot of fire which was then carried up into the sky by a whirlwind—God’s whirlwind. We cannot know exactly what chariots of fire or horses of fire are, but they are cited a number times in Scripture (2 Samuel 22:11; 2 Kings 6:17-18; Psalm 68:17; 104:3; Isaiah 66:15; Jeremiah 4:13; Ezekiel 1:4-28; 10:1-22).

The promise to the church of Philadelphia to be kept from the “hour of trial” is a promise of being raptured before the start of the Tribulation.

“Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.” (Revelation 3:10 emphasis added)

Daniel’s Seventieth Week is the “hour of trial” and all believers of the Church Age must be taken out before it begins because that is the time when God pours out His judgments—His wrath.

The promise that “God appointed us not for wrath, but unto the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Thessalonians 5:9), is a confirmation that true Christians must be raptured prior to the start of the Tribulation.

Another important point is this: The twenty-four elders seen in chapters four and five of Revelation represent believers of the Church Age—which means that the Rapture must take place by Revelation chapter four—before the Tribulation (the day of the Lord) begins.


By Kit R. Olsen


Quasar92

Shouldn't that read: The Speculative Pre-Tribulation Rapture?

 

[Quasar92]

Shouldn't that read: The Speculative Pre-Tribulation Rapture?

Either cut out your false speculation, or prove any of the following is false:

Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church

The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:

1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.


Quasar92

 

[BABerean2]

“Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.” (Revelation 3:10 emphasis added)

Daniel’s Seventieth Week is the “hour of trial” and all believers of the Church Age must be taken out before it begins because that is the time when God pours out His judgments—His wrath.

The promise that “God appointed us not for wrath, but unto the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Thessalonians 5:9), is a confirmation that true Christians must be raptured prior to the start of the Tribulation.

Another important point is this: The twenty-four elders seen in chapters four and five of Revelation represent believers of the Church Age—which means that the Rapture must take place by Revelation chapter four—before the Tribulation (the day of the Lord) begins.


By Kit R. Olsen

That "hour" of trial is found in John 5:27-30, at the bodily resurrection and judgment of the dead.

Joh 5:27　 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.　
Joh 5:28　 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,　
Joh 5:29　 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Joh 5:30　 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.　


The timing of the event is found in Revelation 11:15-18, at the 7th trumpet, which is "literally" the last trumpet found in the Bible.
At this point the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Christ "forever".
How long is forever?

Rev 11:15　 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.　
Rev 11:16　 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,　
Rev 11:17　 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.　
Rev 11:18　 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.　


The text above proves that the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order and destroys the 7 year tribulation period and the other "speculation", as my Brother JGR said above, about the 70th week of Daniel, "time of Jacob's trouble", etc.

The Twenty-four Elders were seen in heaven by John, because they have already died. The souls of the Old Testament prophets and the Apostles of Christ are there, now.

Nothing in 1 Thessalonians chapters 4 or 5 mentions a trip back to heaven.
The words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 proves that chapter 5 is connected to chapter 4.
The timing of the event at the end of chapter 4 is found in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-2, on "the day of the Lord" when He "comes as a thief".
Based on 2 Peter 3:10 and Revelation 16:15-16, it is clearly a Second Coming event.

Since the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13, and the New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20, the "Church Age" cannot end before the Second Coming of Christ.

 

[Quasar92]

That "hour" of trial is found in John 5:27-30, at the bodily resurrection and judgment of the dead.

Joh 5:27　 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.　
Joh 5:28　 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,　
Joh 5:29　 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Joh 5:30　 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.　


The timing of the event is found in Revelation 11:15-18, at the 7th trumpet, which is "literally" the last trumpet found in the Bible.
At this point the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Christ "forever".
How long is forever?

Rev 11:15　 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.　
Rev 11:16　 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,　
Rev 11:17　 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.　
Rev 11:18　 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.　


The text above proves that the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order and destroys the 7 year tribulation period and the other "speculation", as my Brother JGR said above, about the 70th week of Daniel, "time of Jacob's trouble", etc.

The Twenty-four Elders were seen in heaven by John, because they have already died. The souls of the Old Testament prophets and the Apostles of Christ are there, now.

Nothing in 1 Thessalonians chapters 4 or 5 mentions a trip back to heaven.
The words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 proves that chapter 5 is connected to chapter 4.
The timing of the event at the end of chapter 4 is found in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-2, on "the day of the Lord" when He "comes as a thief".
Based on 2 Peter 3:10 and Revelation 16:15-16, it is clearly a Second Coming event.

Since the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13, and the New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20, the "Church Age" cannot end before the Second Coming of Christ.

Why 1 Thess.4:16 is not a resurrection

The primary reason is because Jesus told John, the resurrection of the tribulation martyrs/saints in Rev.20:4, is the FIRST general resurrection, which is SEVEN YEARS LATER that the events of 1 Thess.4:16-17

Rev.20:4 "Then I saw tthrones, and useated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw vthe souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those wwho had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. xThey came to life and yreigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.This is the first resurrection. 6 zBlessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such athe second death has no power, but they will be bpriests of God and of Christ, and they cwill reign with him for a thousand years."

The statement by Paul in 1 Thess.4:16, "...and the dead in Christ will rise first," does not mean a resurrection is about to occur. Because they were all raised once before, as those who die in Christ, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8, and as FIRSTFRUITS, each in his own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. Who will return with Jesus when He comes with them from heaven, according to vs 14. If Paul meant it was to be a resurrection, he would have documented it as one, which he did not do. If he had, there would be three resurrections rather than the two that are recorded in Rev.20:4-6. Which would then have to be changed from the first and second, to the second and third resurrections. 1 Thess.4:13-18 has nothing whatever to do with the second coming of Christ to the earth, as documented in Mt.24:30; Zech.14:4-5; Jude 14 and Rev.19:14, when the Pre-trib raptured Church RETURNS WITH CHRIST!

But rather than meaning it to be a resurrection, it was the third of Paul's assurances to the Thessalonians, that all the members of their church, who had already died in Christ, would not miss the pre-trib rapture of the Church he was teaching them about.

The first of Paul's three assurances begins in vs 13: "Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep [die], or to grieve like the rest of men [non-believers], who have no hope." [Parenthetics mine].

Then he followed up his first assurance to them that all those who had previously died in Christ would be together with them at the rapture of the Church in the very next verse [14]: "We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him." Revealing to them, that Christ had previously raised them all once before, as documented in 2 Cor.5:6-8, and had been in heaven with Him ever since. Since all the dead in Christ have been raised once before, there is no reason for them having to be raised a second time. Confirming their status as FIRSTFRUITS, raised each in his own order, according to 1 Cor.15:23.

There will not be any resurrected then, because all their dead in Christ had already been raised once before, in their spiritual bodies [As recorded in 1 Cor.15:44], following the death of their bodies, when they immediately went to be with Christ in heaven. Confirming Ecc.12:7 as well as 2 Cor.5:6-8. Confirmed in 1 Thes.4:14, saying they are returning with Christ, when He returns, from heaven with them. Therefore, when Jesus appears in the clouds of the sky for all those who belong to Him left here on earth alive, they will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air [together with those who previously died in Him, who are already there].

The second of Paul's three assurances to the Thessalonians, was that their dead in Christ will not miss the rapture of the Church is in vs 15, which states: "According to the Lord's own word [Recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are left [Believers] till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep [Died]." Of course not! Because they will have already been raised once before, and gone to be with the Lord in heaven in their spiritual bodies, and then return with Him when He comes from heaven! They certainly do not need a resurrection, because they are going to the spiritual world in heaven. In contrast to the glorified physical bodies that will be necessary at the time of the resurrection documented in Rev.20:4 and 6. Because they are to be priests of God and rule with Jesus for 1,000 years right here on the earth, in a human environment! [Parenthetics mine].

The third and final assurance Paul wrote in vs 16, the subject of this thread, has already been addressed above.

There is also the false view by those, who attempt to make 1 Thes.4:16-17 a reference to the first resurrection in Rev.20:4 and 6, at the second coming of Christ, which does not take place until seven years later. Which is not possible, because after we [All believers] have been CAUGHT UP to meet the Lord in the clouds of the sky, we will go to be with our Father in heaven, as Jesus promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28. Seven years after that, we will all return with Christ, from heaven, at His second coming to the earth, as recorded in Rev.19:14, Zech.14:4-5 and in Jude 14.

Nowhere in the Bible is there a single passage of anyone called up to meet the Lord in the clouds of the sky, when He returns in His second coming to the earth! Because the first of many things He will do, is in fighting the Antichrist, the false prophet and their ten nations allied to them, in the battle of Armageddon and defeating them, the forces of evil, according to Rev.19:11-20. Then in setting up His Millennial Kingdom here on the earth, according to Rev.20:4 and 6. He does not return to heaven from that time on until the present heaven and earth is destroyed and a new heaven and earth is created by God in Rev.21:1.


FYI, the hour of trial is found in Rev.3:10, from which Jesus told John, refers to the Day of the Lord, the Great Tribulation, in which He also said, will keep the Church from it!

In addition, the seventh trump by an angel, in Rev.11, IS NOT the last trump of God. In the first place, the passage is a parenthetic in which the chronological order of Jesus second coming to the earth is in Rev.19:11-21. You can find a later trump by God, in Zech.9:14 at Jesus second coming.


Quasar92

 

[BABerean2]

1 Thess.4:13-18 has nothing whatever to do with the second coming of Christ to the earth, as documented in Mt.24:30; Zech.14:4-5; Jude 14 and Rev.19:14, when the Pre-trib raptured Church RETURNS WITH CHRIST!

I am going to have to say this is the first time I have heard a pretribber claim that no bodily resurrection occurs at the pretrib removal of the Church...

I have heard Baptists pastors say... "Dirt is going to fly, when Christ comes back for us."

Your repeated attempts to separate 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 from the timing in chapter 5 are well understood, because if they are connected it kills the pretrib removal of the Church.

The verse below proves beyond any shadow of a doubt that the two chapters are connected to the same event.

1Th 5:10　 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.　


And therefore the timing of the event at the end of chapter 4 is found in the first two verses of chapter 5 on the "day of the Lord" when He "comes as a thief".
Based on 2 Peter 3:10 and Revelation 16:15-16, it is clearly a Second Coming event.

.

 

[GeorgeJ]

 

[Quasar92]

I am going to have to say this is the first time I have heard a pretribber claim that no bodily resurrection occurs at the pretrib removal of the Church...

I have heard Baptists pastors say... "Dirt is going to fly, when Christ comes back for us."

Your repeated attempts to separate 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 from the timing in chapter 5 are well understood, because if they are connected it kills the pretrib removal of the Church.

The verse below proves beyond any shadow of a doubt that the two chapters are connected to the same event.

1Th 5:10　 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.　


And therefore the timing of the event at the end of chapter 4 is found in the first two verses of chapter 5 on the "day of the Lord" when He "comes as a thief".
Based on 2 Peter 3:10 and Revelation 16:15-16, it is clearly a Second Coming event.

.

You continue to post remarks that completely misrepresent the facts, in addition to being refuted previously.

FYI, 1 Thess.4 is primarily about the rapture of the Church. As contrasted by 1
Thess.5, that is primarily about the Day of the Lord, together with Paul contrasting the difference between the two.

Furthermore, your post was in response to my quote, that 1 Thess.4:13-18 has nothing whatever to do with the second coming of Jesus.

When Jesus returns to the earth, in contrast to 1 Thess.4:17, He will return from His marriage to His Bride/Church, in heaven, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, as recorded in Rev.19:7-8 and 14.

All of which refute you.


Quasar92

 

[BABerean2]

You continue to post remarks that completely misrepresent the facts, in addition to being refuted previously.

FYI, 1 Thess.4 is primarily about the rapture of the Church. As contrasted by 1
Thess.5, that is primarily about the Day of the Lord, together with Paul contrasting the difference between the two.

Furthermore, your post was in response to my quote, that 1 Thess.4:13-18 has nothing whatever to do with the second coming of Jesus.

When Jesus returns to the earth, in contrast to 1 Thess.4:17, He will return from His marriage to His Bride/Church, in heaven, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, as recorded in Rev.19:7-8 and 14.

All of which refute you.


Quasar92

The following was produced by Steven Straub, who is a former pretribber.
He abandoned the doctrine when he could not get it to agree with his Bible.

 

[Quasar92]

I am going to have to say this is the first time I have heard a pretribber claim that no bodily resurrection occurs at the pretrib removal of the Church...

I have heard Baptists pastors say... "Dirt is going to fly, when Christ comes back for us."

Your repeated attempts to separate 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 from the timing in chapter 5 are well understood, because if they are connected it kills the pretrib removal of the Church.

The verse below proves beyond any shadow of a doubt that the two chapters are connected to the same event.

1Th 5:10　 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.　


And therefore the timing of the event at the end of chapter 4 is found in the first two verses of chapter 5 on the "day of the Lord" when He "comes as a thief".
Based on 2 Peter 3:10 and Revelation 16:15-16, it is clearly a Second Coming event.

.

Consider the following intended interpretation of 1 Thess.4 and 5:

1 Thess.4:13 "Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words."


Of course 1 Thess.4 and 5 are connected together. Who denied they are not?


1 Thess.5:1 "Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

4But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. 11Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing."


Paul's reference to Jesus coming as a thief in the night, is to NON-BELIEVERS, as he contrasts them to the believers of 1 Thess.4, about the rapture of the Church. While in chapter 5, it is about the Day of the Lord coming as a thief in the night, which is specific reference to Jesus FIRST coming of TWO, for His Church he talked about in 1 Thess.4:16-17. Seven years BEFORE the SECOND of His TWO comings, WITH HIS CHURCH takeing place, from the marriage in heaven of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, as recorded in Rev.19:7-8 and 14.


That is what 1 Thess.4 and 5 are all about.



Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

The following was produced by Steven Straub, who is a former pretribber.
He abandoned the doctrine when he could not get it to agree with his Bible.

The Biblical teaching of the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul. Which has been posted at this site many times over that you have yet to show any sign from the views you have of refuting a single bit of it:

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church - a deeper walk...

Quasar92

 

[Hal A Peno]

sf

 

[Quasar92]

Why are some pre-tribbers obsessed with 'pre-trib?'

You've been refutted Q, you just can't accept simple to understand verses, you accept the complicated contradictory false teachings of pre-trib.

Pre-trib is the most widely held deceptive false teaching that has ever crept into the church. The only thing worse is preterism. Every pastor should ban IT and Preterism as well. Both are evil and do absolutely NOTHING for Christ.

When are you going to open your eyes. My posts are in response to the many here who do not believe in the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, the Bible teaches!


Quasar92

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

When are you going to open your eyes. My posts are in response to the many here who do not believe in the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, the Bible teaches!


Quasar92

I think it is wonderful that you keep trying brother. It will happen and then they will believe. For you, the crown of righteousness is laid up for you.
2 Timothy 4:8
Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

 

[BABerean2]

I think it is wonderful that you keep trying brother. It will happen and then they will believe. For you, the crown of righteousness is laid up for you.
2 Timothy 4:8
Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Heb_9:28　 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.


Tit_2:13　 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

.

 

[keras]

I think it is wonderful that you keep trying brother. It will happen and then they will believe. For you, the crown of righteousness is laid up for you.

He keeps trying, but the pre-trib rapture to heaven theory has no Biblical support, so we who know this fact, will continue to oppose anyone who promotes a rapture to heaven for the Church, at any time.
Many scriptures say we must be tried and tested during the things to come. Many have lived and died without any severe test and they will be judged according to how they lived their lives in their circumstances, with their God given talents. But we, in these end times, will face dramatic events, there will be no escape. In fact, Hebrews 12:8 says what those people who desire escape actually are.

 

[Quasar92]

He keeps trying, but the pre-trib rapture to heaven theory has no Biblical support, so we who know this fact, will continue to oppose anyone who promotes a rapture to heaven for the Church, at any time.
Many scriptures say we must be tried and tested during the things to come. Many have lived and died without any severe test and they will be judged according to how they lived their lives in their circumstances, with their God given talents. But we, in these end times, will face dramatic events, there will be no escape. In fact, Hebrews 12:8 says what those people who desire escape actually are.

The following is a four post link in full Biblical teaching verification of the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul; posted on this site many times over that refute you. Yet you continue call them all liars. Either field a Scriptural based argument supporting your views, or they remain refuted.

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church - a deeper walk...


Quasar92

 

[Douggg]

Scripture assures us through the prophet Isaiah that the “day of the Lord” is in reference to the seven-year Tribulation.

Error. The verse is in reference to the great tribulation. A term found in the bible in Matthew 24 and Revelation 7. There is no reference to a seven year tribulation.

I notice, Q, that you quoted Kit R. Olsen. So my comments should really be to her.

The rapture may indeed take place before the 70th week begins. But it is not a biblical necessity for it to do so.

 

[Quasar92]

Error. The verse is in reference to the great tribulation. A term found in the bible in Matthew 24 and Revelation 7. There is no reference to a seven year tribulation.

I notice, Q, that you quoted Kit R. Olsen. So my comments should really be to her.

The rapture may indeed take place before the 70th week begins. But it is not a biblical necessity for it to do so.

FYI, Dan.9:27 is reference to the seven year tribulation, in which half or it, is the Great Tribulation.


Quasar92

 

[Douggg]

FYI, Dan.9:27 is reference to the seven year tribulation, in which half or it, is the Great Tribulation.


Quasar92

It does not say 7 year tribulation in the text of Daniel 9:27. It does not say great tribulation in the text of Daniel 9:27 either.

The great tribulation begins when the abomination of desolation is standing in the holy place spoken of by the prophet Daniel. Information of when that will be during the 7 years is by deduction - by subtracting, day 2520 (7 years) minus 1335 days = day 1185.

Therefore, from day 1 of the confirming of the covenant - on day 1185, the great tribulation will begin will lasts 1335 days.