The Spectacular Pre-Tribulation Rapture

[Copperhead]

Why are some pre-tribbers obsessed with 'pre-trib?'

I would counter that with "why are do so many that don't hold to a pre-trib removal of the righteous spend so much time working to refute it"? It almost seems they desire to go thru the tribulation. To that I say, go for it. If that is your desire, then by all means have a good time. Far be it for those who hold to a pre-trib to get in your way. If the pre-trib position is faulty, why bother spending so much time countering it. Just sit back and wait for things to happen and get the last laugh and gloat over it if it doesn't happen. You will be able to do the "see, we told you so" game.

But there is a flip side. Yeshua and the NT writers made a great point to always be on guard and ready. By holding to a pre-trib position, that motivates people to get off their duffs and get out and proclaim the gospel to a fallen world so that they can be spared the coming judgement of God on the inhabitants of the earth. Also, Yeshua said we should be watching and expounded upon that in many parables. if He is only to return after the events start to happen, then folks could just kick back and goof off in regards to proclaiming the gospel. After all, there is plenty of time since folks have several years after the events of the Tribulation start.

One of the primary motivations of the pre-trib is to warn others to prevent them from going thru this upheaval to come. The primary motivation of everyone else seems to protect their theology and sell books and DVD's.

 

[Hal A Peno]

awer56

 

[Hal A Peno]

arey

 

[Copperhead]

It takes page upon page, chapter upon chapter, and book upon book to support pre-trib. I'm very impressed that you can't see the extensive contradictions and fabrications in it as it's such an extensively fabricated doctrine that it GOES take so much time refuting it. None of us want to go through tribulation, we have no choice...

I can easily say the same thing about other positions. The main point being made is that we spend so much time attacking each other over stuff like this, that really is not paramount to what Yeshua's main reason for His death, burial, and resurrection, that it takes time away from what we should be doing and causes those outside of the body to look at us and basically say, "if that is what being a Christian is all about, then leave me out of it". It really detracts from our primary mission and objective.

Sure, it can be discussed and debated, but it typically migrates into name calling, declarations of one's salvation, and other nonsense. Like a bunch of children on a school playground. There is no need of accusing heresy, fabrications, etc which are just explosive words that are designed to shut down serious discussion. You know, just like the nonsense that goes on out in the secular world over political and social issues. It makes us no better than the world around us.

As a pre-trib removal person, I really don't feel the need to spend more than a pittance of time on defending it. I feel no threat from any other position. If others feel compelled to believe that they will go thru the disaster to come, who am I to get in their way? Either position is not a condition of salvation. And if I am wrong, it will not effect my faith in Messiah one little bit. If I turn out to be wrong, I have no problem admitting it. If I turn out to be right, it will be all the more reason to celebrate a wonderful God and Savior. And I will be thankful that all the other believers did not have to endure such a terrible time.

So, in a nutshell, one should look at why they would take so much time out of their life to try and refute a pre-trib rapture? If you are confident in your position, why are you so defensive about it? Me thinks ye doest protest too much.

 

[Hal A Peno]

suy

 

[Copperhead]

Pre-trib is disturbing. Do I need to post the long list of pre-trib fabrications again? Jesus said after the trib, pre-trib says no. Jesus says he gathers his Christians, pre-trib says Jews. So they fabricate two raptures and two returns of Christ to counter that contradiction. Paul says the man of sin needs to be first revealed, pre-trib says no.

The Day of the Lord has always been understood as the return of Jesus Christ etc. etc. Pre-trib says no, the Day of the Lord IS the tribulation period literally blaming the evils of the last days on God.

That's why we're so defensive about it. For those of us who have some sense of what a logical hermeneutic is, we see it as nothing but a perversion of God's Word. It's a slap in God's face to depict the gathering like a terror attack and attribute the end-time evils of the man of sin to God and his church which is what pre-trib dispensationalism does.

Why should it be so disturbing to you? There are varying schools of hermeneutics. No one group has an exclusive and is the mouthpiece for God. Else you would be the Messiah Himself. All scripture is interpreted by all the members of the body. We should discuss without malice or accusation and we should debate (not argue) the merits of each, all the while with respect for each other. Present the case, explore the support for a position, with objective analysis of the positions.

See, you make my point yet again. You just could not avoid calling those who might disagree with your position on these issues as fabricators, which is accusation of intentional falsehood. To accuse one of malicious intent with no proof is sin. You have no clue of their heart or relationship with the Lord. While that kind of explosive accusation meant to demean and intimidate may work on some, it barely phases some of us. As Paul stated, "when I became a man, I put away childish things".

You elevate yourself and like minded individuals to the level that no one else's interpretation is valid or worthy of exploration. The only valid view and hermeneutic is yours alone. There are many on all sides of these issues that are sincere, Godly individuals, of which you seem to be not one of them. That is very dangerous territory. The gist of what I see is not a loving spirit of brotherly discourse, but one of destroying all those who disagree. One might want to back up and look at the greatest commandment that Yeshua gave us and what His most profound desire was of us when He prayed to the Father for us.

 

[Quasar92]

Q, I copied and pasted the exact text from the bible and underlined that it said "great tribulation" not "tribulation". If you can find the term "7year tribulation" in the bible, then provide the verse and underline it. But you are not going to be able to because it is not there.

As I previously wrote, your argument is from an empty wagon. There is NO DENIAL of what you claim pertaining to the GT. However, you fail to understand the full Biblical view of the seven year tribulation the last 3.5 years of, is the GT. See the following from another source:

Question: "What is the Great Tribulation?"

Answer: The Tribulation is a future time period when the Lord will accomplish at least two aspects of His plan: 1) He will complete His discipline of the nation Israel (Daniel 9:24), and 2) He will judge the unbelieving, godless inhabitants of the earth (Revelation 6 - 18). The length of the Tribulation is seven years. This is determined by an understanding of the seventy weeks of Daniel (Daniel 9:24-27; also see the article on the Tribulation). The Great Tribulation is the last half of the Tribulation period, three and one-half years in length. It is distinguished from the Tribulation period because the Beast, or Antichrist, will be revealed, and the wrath of God will greatly intensify during this time. Thus, it is important at this point to emphasize that the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation are not synonymous terms. Within eschatology (the study of future things), the Tribulation refers to the full seven-year period while the “Great Tribulation” refers to the second half of the Tribulation.

It is Christ Himself who used the phrase "Great Tribulation" with reference to the last half of the Tribulation. In Matthew 24:21, Jesus says, "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall." In this verse Jesus is referring to the event of Matthew 24:15, which describes the revealing of the abomination of desolation, the man also known as the Antichrist. Also, Jesus in Matthew 24:29-30 states, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days . . . the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory." In this passage, Jesus defines the Great Tribulation (v.21) as beginning with the revealing of the abomination of desolation (v.15) and ending with Christ's second coming (v.30).

Other passages that refer to the Great Tribulation are Daniel 12:1b, which says, "And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time." It seems that Jesus was quoting this verse when He spoke the words recorded in Matthew 24:21. Also referring to the Great Tribulation is Jeremiah 30:7, "Alas! for that day is great, There is none like it; And it is the time of Jacob’s distress, But he will be saved from it." The phrase “Jacob’s distress” refers to the nation of Israel, which will experience persecution and natural disasters such as have never before been seen.

Considering the information Christ gave us in Matthew 24:15-30, it is easy to conclude that the beginning of the Great Tribulation has much to do with the abomination of desolation, an action of the Antichrist. In Daniel 9:26-27, we find that this man will make a "covenant" (a peace pact) with the world for seven years (one “week”; again, see the article on the Tribulation). Halfway through the seven-year period—"in the middle of the week"—we are told this man will break the covenant he made, stopping sacrifice and grain offering, which specifically refers to his actions in the rebuilt temple of the future. Revelation 13:1-10 gives even more detail concerning the Beast's actions, and just as important, it also verifies the length of time he will be in power. Revelation 13:5 says he will be in power for 42 months, which is three and one-half years, the length of the Great Tribulation.

Revelation offers us the most information about the Great Tribulation. From Revelation 13 when the Beast is revealed until Christ returns in Revelation 19, we are given a picture of God's wrath on the earth because of unbelief and rebellion (Revelation 16-18). It is also a picture of how God disciplines and at the same time protects His people Israel (Revelation 14:1-5) until He keeps His promise to Israel by establishing an earthly kingdom (Revelation 20:4-6).

Recommended Resource: Understanding End Times Prophecy by Paul Benware

Source: gotquestions.org


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

Pre-trib is disturbing. Do I need to post the long list of pre-trib fabrications again? Jesus said after the trib, pre-trib says no. Jesus says he gathers his Christians, pre-trib says Jews. So they fabricate two raptures and two returns of Christ to counter that contradiction. Paul says the man of sin needs to be first revealed, pre-trib says no.

The Day of the Lord has always been understood as the return of Jesus Christ etc. etc. Pre-trib says no, the Day of the Lord IS the tribulation period literally blaming the evils of the last days on God.

That's why we're so defensive about it. For those of us who have some sense of what a logical hermeneutic is, we see it as nothing but a perversion of God's Word. It's a slap in God's face to depict the gathering like a terror attack and attribute the end-time evils of the man of sin to God and his church which is what pre-trib dispensationalism does.

Your denial of the Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul is nothing short of calling them all liars!

The four post link below consists of the Scriptural verification of the pre-trib rapture of the Church in the first two. The third post is the chronological order of end time events. The fourth post consists of a listings of esteemed men of God from every walk of Christian teachings, who fully support the pre-trib rapture .

Either provide me with a Scripturally supported argument refuting any part of it, or your views are false!

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church - a deeper walk...


Quasar92

 

[Douggg]

As I previously wrote, your argument is from an empty wagon. There is NO DENIAL of what you claim pertaining to the GT. However, you fail to understand the full Biblical view of the seven year tribulation the last 3.5 years of, is the GT. See the following from another source:

Not only is "the 7year tribulation" not a term found in the bible - but none of the timeframes are listed as 3:5 years.

Q, the great tribulation does not begin at the confirming of the covenant for 7 years- but in the middle of it. The 7 years is not "the 7year tribulation" just because someone decides to label the 7 years in that manner.

The term great tribulation is not because the first portion of the seven years is tribulation (that seems to be what you are arguing). The great tribulation is relevant to the whole history of man - worst time ever. Not just compared to the first portion of the seven years.

You should not have a problem with the 7 years being called the 70th week.

 

[BABerean2]

Your denial of the Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul is nothing short of calling them all liars!

Luk_6:42　 Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.


.................................................................................

Mat 13:30　 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.　

The Parable of the Weeds Explained

Mat 13:36　 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.　
Mat 13:37　 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;　
Mat 13:38　 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;　
Mat 13:39　 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.　
Mat 13:40　 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.　
Mat 13:41　 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;　
Mat 13:42　 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.　
Mat 13:43　 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.　


You would be better off not using the word "liar", because when you point one finger at others you have several fingers pointing back in your direction...

.

 

[Quasar92]

Not only is "the 7year tribulation" not a term found in the bible - but none of the timeframes are listed as 3:5 years.

Q, the great tribulation does not begin at the confirming of the covenant for 7 years- but in the middle of it. The 7 years is not "the 7year tribulation" just because someone decides to label the 7 years in that manner.

The term great tribulation is not because the first portion of the seven years is tribulation (that seems to be what you are arguing). The great tribulation is relevant to the whole history of man - worst time ever. Not just compared to the first portion of the seven years.

You should not have a problem with the 7 years being called the 70th week.

No matter how long and hard you argue, Doug, there will be a seven year period of tribulation in which the final 3.5 years is referred to as the Great Tribulation Review the following from another source:

What is the tribulation?

The bible states that in the time just prior to the Glorious Appearing of Jesus Christ, the world will experience a time of unprecedented pain and suffering.

This seven year period is referred to by most Christians as "the tribulation." But the bible refers to it by many names, including "the time of Jacob's trouble," "the seventieth week of Daniel," and "the day of the Lord's vengeance." Regardless of the phrase used to describe it, the tribulation will be a time of great testing for every person on the earth.

When asked by His disciples to describe the signs of His coming and the end of the age, Jesus pointed to this time period as a time of anguish greater than any since the world first began:

"'The day is coming when you will see what Daniel the prophet spoke about - the sacrilegious object that causes desecration standing in the Holy Place.' (Reader, pay attention!) 'Then those in Judea must flee to the hills. A person out on the deck of a roof must not go down into the house to pack. A person out in the field must not return even to get a coat. How terrible it will be for pregnant women and for nursing mothers in those days. And pray that your flight will not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For there will be greater anguish than at any time since the world began. And it will never be so great again.'" Matthew 24:15-21(NLT)

While the tribulation will be a worldwide experience, it will strike the nation of Israel and the Jewish people with particular severity. The last three and a half years of the tribulation are a time period the bible describes as "the Great Tribulation," and it will be a time of unrivaled persecution of the Jewish people.

Given our generation's firsthand experience of the Holocaust, it's difficult to fathom that a time of greater horror is yet future for the Jewish people.

But according to the bible, this will be the case. Nevertheless, hope still exists, because this time period will end with the Glorious Appearing of Jesus Christ and the establishment of His Righteous Kingdom.

Daniel's 70 Weeks

The Book of Daniel, written over 600 years before Christ was born, provides some of the clearest and most detailed prophecies concerning the tribulation period. During one of his heavenly visions, Daniel learns the following from the angel Gabriel:

"A period of seventy sets of seven has been decreed for your people and your holy city to finish their rebellion, to put an end to their sin, to atone for their guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to confirm the prophetic vision, and to anoint the Most Holy Place." Daniel 9:24 (NLT)

What does this passage mean? Let's examine it piece-by-piece:

1) Seventy Sets of Seven: This phrase is sometimes translated as seventy sets of weeks, and it can be confusing to the modern reader. Nevertheless, bible scholars are in full agreement that the original Hebrew word for "week" is best translated as "seven years," much like the English word "decade" is best translated as "ten years." Therefore, seventy sets of seven (70 sets of 7 years), in the context of this passage, is 490 years.

2) Your People and Your Holy City: In this context, "your people" means Daniel's people, and "your holy city" means Jerusalem. Therefore, this passage is in reference to the Jewish people and the Holy City of Jerusalem.

Knowing these two things, Gabriel's message from God to the Jews is this - 490 years have been decreed to:

1) Finish their rebellion against God (accept Christ as the Messiah)

2) Put an end to their sin (make a conscious decision to stop sinning)

3) Atone for their guilt (accept the blood of Christ as payment for sin)

4) Bring in everlasting righteousness (witness the establishment of Christ's Millennial Kingdom)

5) Confirm the prophetic vision (witness the fulfillment of all Messianic prophecies)

6) Anoint the most Holy place (witness the anointing of the Temple by means of the physical presence of the glorified Messiah, Jesus Christ)

According to the angel Gabriel, God has promised the Jewish people that all six of these objectives will be achieved within a 490 year period, and that 490 year period would begin with the decree to rebuild the Temple.

However, what the prophecy didn't reveal is that the final conclusion of the 490 years would be interrupted in year 483 by the most significant event in human history - the arrival of the Anointed One who will be killed "appearing to have accomplished nothing."

483 Years Until the Messiah Appears
The heavenly message Gabriel relayed to Daniel provides one of the clearest biblical proofs that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah, the Son of the Living God:

Now listen and understand! Seven sets of seven plus sixty-two sets of seven will pass from the time the command is given to rebuild Jerusalem until a ruler - the Anointed One - comes. Jerusalem will be rebuilt with streets and strong defenses, despite the perilous times." Daniel 9:24-25 (NLT)

According to the Book of Daniel, 483 years [(7 sets of 7 years) + (62 sets of 7 years)] will pass between the time the command is given to rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One (the Messiah) comes.

Since a biblical year is 360 days, we're actually being told that 173,880 days will pass.

To calculate the exact date of the Messiah's arrival, readers of this prophecy would need to count forward 173,880 days from the time of the command and look for the Messiah's arrival in Jerusalem at that time.

The date of the command to rebuild the Temple is recorded in the Book of Nehemiah.

According to Nehemiah 2:1-8, the command to rebuild Jerusalem was given in the 20th year of the reign of Artaxerxes (446 B.C.) during the month of Nisan (March/April).

Counting forward 173,880 days from both the first day and the last day of Nisan (since the bible isn't clear of the exact day), one will calculate a target arrival date for the Messiah of somewhere between 13 April A.D. 31 and 12 May A.D. 31.

Did anyone appear in Jerusalem between those dates who fulfilled the prophecies of the Messiah and was killed, "appearing to have accomplished nothing"?

Yes.

During the Passover festivities in Jerusalem in the year A.D. 31, Jesus of Nazareth was killed in such a way, thus fulfilling the prophecy given to Daniel:

After this period of sixty-two sets of seven, the Anointed One will be killed, appearing to have accomplished nothing, and a ruler will arise whose armies will destroy the city and the Temple. The end will come with a flood, and war and its miseries are decreed from that time to the very end." Daniel 9:26 (NLT)

The latter part of this prophecy was fulfilled in A.D. 70, thirty-nine years after Jesus was crucified. In that year, the future Roman Emperor Titus led his armies into Jerusalem where they destroyed the City and the Temple.

7 Years of Tribulation Remain

Following the crucifixion of Jesus, the final seven years of the 490 years decreed were put on hold.

Many explanations have been offered as to why these final seven years have been put on hold and recounting them all is beyond the scope of this article. But regardless of the reason, we can be certain these final seven years are yet future. Why? Because Jesus Himself said so.

While speaking to His disciples in reference to the end of the age and His Coming, Jesus said:

The day is coming when you will see what Daniel the prophet spoke about - the sacrilegious object that causes desecration standing in the Holy Place." Matthew 24:15 (NLT)

This verse describes an event which has not occurred. Therefore, it is yet future.

"Immediately after the anguish of those days, the sun will be darkened, the moon will give no light, the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. And then at last, the sign that the Son of Man is coming will appear in the heavens, and there will be deep mourning among all the peoples of the earth. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." Matthew 24:29-30 (NLT)

Obviously, this verse also describes a future event, and it's a key verse in determining the length of the tribulation, when it will begin, and when it will end.


Quasar92

 

[jgr]

While speaking to His disciples in reference to the end of the age and His Coming, Jesus said:

The day is coming when you will see what Daniel the prophet spoke about - the sacrilegious object that causes desecration standing in the Holy Place." Matthew 24:15 (NLT)

This verse describes an event which has not occurred. Therefore, it is yet future.

It occurred when the Romans invaded Jerusalem and desecrated the temple.

You've just called Jesus a liar.

 

[Quasar92]

Luk_6:42　 Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.


.................................................................................

Mat 13:30　 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.　

The Parable of the Weeds Explained

Mat 13:36　 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.　
Mat 13:37　 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;　
Mat 13:38　 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;　
Mat 13:39　 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.　
Mat 13:40　 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.　
Mat 13:41　 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;　
Mat 13:42　 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.　
Mat 13:43　 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.　


You would be better off not using the word "liar", because when you point one finger at others you have several fingers pointing back in your direction...

.

By my authority as a qualified teacher of the Bible I will censor those whom I interface with who fit any of that which is described below, above verses 10-17.

1But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5haring a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.

6They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. 8Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these teachers oppose the truth. They are men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. 9But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.

A Final Charge to Timothy

10You, however, know all about my teaching, my way of life, my purpose, faith, patience, love, endurance, 11persecutions, sufferings—what kinds of things happened to me in Antioch, Iconium and Lystra, the persecutions I endured. Yet the Lord rescued me from all of them. 12In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13while evildoers and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the servant of Goda may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

It occurred when the Romans invaded Jerusalem and desecrated the temple.

You've just called Jesus a liar.

Because you are an amatuer lay person speculating on
Biblical eschatology, you have no authority whatever to tell me, or any qualified teacher of the Bible that they/I, called Jesus a liar! Let me see your attempt to prove that guesswork
!



Quasar82

 

[jgr]

Because you are an amatuer lay person speculating on
Biblical eschatology, you have no authority whatever to tell me, or any qualified teacher of the Bible that they/I, called Jesus a liar! Let me see your attempt to prove that guesswork
!



Quasar82

You have called Jesus, who in Matthew 24 answered His disciples' questions, and forewarned them of impending events of their generation -- a liar.
You have called Flavius Josephus, who as an eyewitness historian confirmed and reported the events which Jesus had predicted -- a liar.
You have called Jesus' disciples, and the Judean Christians of that generation who heeded and acted upon Jesus' earlier forewarnings, and preserved their lives -- fools.

Good job.

 

[Douggg]

o matter how long and hard you argue, Doug, there will be a seven year period of tribulation in which the final 3.5 years is referred to as the Great Tribulation Review the following from another source:

Q, how can the Jews be saying peace and safety in 1thessalonians5, if it is the time of Jacob's trouble? What kind of tribulation is it, if people are saying peace and safety?

Q, give me a list of your top 5 tribulation testing of all the people, from the bible, that takes place during what is your first 3 1/2 years (since you refer to the second 3 1/2 years as the great tribulation).

If you can't find anything in the bible of what would be tribulation, testing of all the people - then give me your speculation, top five. Use any of your bible commentator sources you want if you wish, but please annotate in parenthesis the commentator's name.

Framed as you have stated about the 7 years:

first 3 1/2 years - the tribulation
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.

second 3 1/2 years - the great tribulation ( I am going to name a few)
1. Can't buy or sell without the 666
2. A third of the ships destroyed
3. The waters tainted
4. Global starvation
5. Heat scorches men

 

[BABerean2]

By my authority as a qualified teacher of the Bible I will censor those whom I interface with who fit any of that which is described below, above verses 10-17.

1Ti 1:4　 nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith.　


Tit_1:14　 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

.

 

[Hal A Peno]

gh

 

[Quasar92]

Q, how can the Jews be saying peace and safety in 1thessalonians5, if it is the time of Jacob's trouble? What kind of tribulation is it, if people are saying peace and safety?

Q, give me a list of your top 5 tribulation testing of all the people, from the bible, that takes place during what is your first 3 1/2 years (since you refer to the second 3 1/2 years as the great tribulation).

If you can't find anything in the bible of what would be tribulation, testing of all the people - then give me your speculation, top five. Use any of your bible commentator sources you want if you wish, but please annotate in parenthesis the commentator's name.

Framed as you have stated about the 7 years:

first 3 1/2 years - the tribulation
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.

second 3 1/2 years - the great tribulation ( I am going to name a few)
1. Can't buy or sell without the 666
2. A third of the ships destroyed
3. The waters tainted
4. Global starvation
5. Heat scorches men

The following is an excerpt of a lengthy article by David Reagan, exposing the views you presently hold on the issues he thoroughly covers:


Matthew 24 is a very important prophetic passage because it contains detailed prophecies of Jesus concerning future events. It consists of a speech delivered by Jesus during the last week of His life (in about 30 A.D.) as He and His disciples sat on the Mount of Olives, overlooking the city of Jerusalem and its magnificent Temple. The speech is recorded in three places: Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21.

The discourse was prompted by one of Jesus’ disciples as they were leaving the Temple where Jesus had been teaching. The disciple, obviously overwhelmed by the beauty of the Temple, said, “Teacher, behold what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings” (Mark 13:1). Jesus’ immediate response was a startling one: “Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone shall be left upon another which will not be torn down” (Mark 13:2).

A Series of Questions

This statement must have greatly perplexed the disciples of Jesus, because later, after they had ascended the Mount of Olives and had stopped to rest, they asked Jesus: “Tell us when will these things be, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” (Matthew 24:3).

Note carefully the three questions Jesus was asked:

1. “When will these things be?” That is, when will Jerusalem and the Temple be destroyed?
2. “What will be the sign of Your coming?” That is, what event will signal Jesus’ return?
3. “What will be the sign of the end of the age?” That is, what event will mark the consummation of history and the launching of a new world order?

Jesus’ Answers

Jesus does not address the first question in his discourse as it is recorded in Matthew 24. His response can be found only in Luke’s account, in Luke 21:20-24. The answer is that Jerusalem and the Temple will suffer destruction when the disciples “see Jerusalem surrounded by armies” (Luke 21:20). This occurred 40 years later in 70 A.D. when the Romans besieged the city and then destroyed it. Jesus referred to this event as “days of vengeance” (Luke 21:22).

The answer to the second question is provided in Matthew 24:4-22. Basically, the point that Jesus makes is that the sign of His coming will be the Great Tribulation, a future period of seven years during which God will pour out His wrath on the nations of the world.

The third question is answered in Matthew 24:30. The sign of the end of the age will be the appearance of Jesus in the heavens, “coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.”

Signs of the Tribulation

In the process of delivering this discourse, Jesus mentioned many signs that would characterize the period leading up to and including the Tribulation, signs which altogether would point to His soon return (Matthew 24:4-15). These included such things as false Christs, wars and rumors of wars, persecution of believers, and lawlessness. Signs of nature were also emphasized. Jesus said that natural catastrophes such as famines, earthquakes, pestilence and signs in the heavens would increase like birth pangs — in frequency and intensity.

The only positive sign Jesus mentioned was the preaching of the Gospel to all the nations of the earth (Matthew 24:14).

According to Jesus, the climactic sign of the Tribulation would be the erection of what the prophet Daniel had called “the abomination of desolation,” which would be situated “in the holy place” of the Temple (Daniel 11:31 and Matthew 24:15).

The Theological Issue

So, what about it? Is Matthew 24 history or prophecy?
It is a crucial prophetic question. The passage clearly portrays a period of intense tribulation that will precede the Second Coming of Jesus. Has this terrible period of tribulation already occurred or is it yet to occur? And what about the Second Coming of Jesus? Has it already occurred? Have all the events described in Matthew 24 been fulfilled or do some of them await fulfillment?

The Conflicting Views

The Premillennial viewpoint, both historic and modern, holds this passage to be predictive, yet-to-be fulfilled sometime in the near future. According to the Premillennial view, the return of Jesus will be immediately preceded by a period of worldwide, unprecedented tribulation that will particularly focus on the Jewish people.

The majority viewpoint of Christendom, both Catholic and Protestant, is the Amillennial view. This view spiritualizes Bible prophecy and concludes that there will be no future Tribulation or Millennium. Amillennialists argue, instead, that we are simultaneously experiencing both the Tribulation and the Millennium right now and have been doing so since the Cross. We are supposedly in the Millennium because the Holy Spirit is restraining evil through the Church. And we are simultaneously in the Tribulation because the Church is experiencing persecution.

Although Postmillennialists argue that the Millennium is still future, they maintain that the tribulation aspects of Matthew 24 were fulfilled in the First Century destruction of Jerusalem. They conclude, therefore, that there will be no future Great Tribulation.

The group with the strangest attitude toward Matthew 24 are those Amillennialists who are also what is called “Full Preterists.” (The word, Preterist, is Latin for “past.”)

There are degrees of Preterism. A moderate Preterist believes all of Matthew 24 was fulfilled in the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem, except the Second Coming of Jesus. But the “Full Preterist” takes the position that every aspect of Matthew 24, including the Second Coming, happened in 70 A.D.! They argue that Jesus returned spiritually in the destruction that the Romans inflicted upon Jerusalem. They also argue that the prophecies refer to the end of the Jewish Age and not to the end times.

Matthew 24 thus emerges as a key prophetic passage. Those who spiritualize prophecy (Amillennialists and Postmillennialists) either argue that its tribulation prophecies were fulfilled in 70 A.D. or have been fulfilled in the history of the Church, and they therefore reject the idea that it points to a period of severe tribulation immediately preceding the return of Jesus. Amillennialists who are Full Preterists argue that all of it, including the prophecy about the Lord’s Second Coming, was fulfilled in 70 A.D. Those who interpret prophecy more literally (Premillennialists) contend that all aspects of the passage await fulfillment. They therefore feel that it definitely points to a future period of tribulation before the Lord returns.

So, what about our central question? Is Matthew 24 history or prophecy? Is it past or future? Was it fulfilled in 70 A.D. or is it yet to occur?

I believe Matthew 24 was prefilled in prophetic type in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. and is therefore yet to be fulfilled in history. And I think I can prove that from the passage itself.

The Proclamation of the Gospel

Let’s begin with verse 14. It states that all the events described in Matthew 24 will take place at a time when the Gospel has been preached to all the world.

This certainly had not taken place by the year 70 A.D. In fact, it still has not taken place to this date. Using modern technology like radio, television, movies, satellites, and the Internet, we have been able to proclaim the Gospel to more people than ever before in history, but we still have not reached all the people in the world.

The book of Revelation reveals that this will not be accomplished until late in the Tribulation when God will send forth an angel who will preach the “eternal gospel” to “every nation and tribe and tongue and people” (Revelation 14:6).

Daniel’s Prophecy

Next, let’s consider verse 15. It says the period of intense persecution of Jews will begin when “the abomination of desolation,” spoken of by Daniel, is seen “standing in the holy place.” We have no historical record of such an event taking place in 70 A.D. Unlike the Greek tyrant, Antiochus Epiphanes, who desecrated the Temple’s holy place in 168 B.C. by erecting within it an altar to Zeus, the Roman general Titus took no such action in 70 A.D. before he destroyed the city and the Temple.

The Intensity of the Tribulation

The third point to note is found in verse 21. It says that the period of Jewish persecution that will follow the desecration of the Temple will be the most intense in all of history, “since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall [be].”

These words were not fulfilled in 70 A.D. The persecution which the Jews experienced under Titus was severe, but it pales in comparison to what the Jews suffered during the Nazi Holocaust of World War II.

Josephus says the Romans killed a million Jews in the 70 A.D. siege of Jerusalem. Historians are convinced that this number is greatly exaggerated. But even if it is true, it is nothing compared to the six million Jews who perished at the hands of the Nazis.

Furthermore, the prophet Zechariah tells us that during the end times a total of two-thirds of the Jewish people will die during a period of unparalleled calamity (Zechariah 13:8-9). In other words, there is a period of Jewish persecution yet to occur that will even exceed the horrors of the Nazi Holocaust. According to the book of Revelation, this will occur during the second half of the Tribulation. It is the reason that Jesus referred to that part of the Tribulation as the “great tribulation” (Matthew 24:21).

Consider verse 21 again: “for then there will be a great tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall.” Did Jesus mean what He said or not? Surely this is not an example of hyperbole — of exaggeration to make a point. Everything in the passage screams that we are to t

Take Jesus’ words literally.

The conclusion is inescapable. The tribulation experienced by the Jews in 70 A.D. was not the greatest “since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall be.”

For the rest of the article:

http://christinprophecy.org/articles/the-olivet-discourse/


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

Q, how can the Jews be saying peace and safety in 1thessalonians5, if it is the time of Jacob's trouble? What kind of tribulation is it, if people are saying peace and safety?

Q, give me a list of your top 5 tribulation testing of all the people, from the bible, that takes place during what is your first 3 1/2 years (since you refer to the second 3 1/2 years as the great tribulation).

If you can't find anything in the bible of what would be tribulation, testing of all the people - then give me your speculation, top five. Use any of your bible commentator sources you want if you wish, but please annotate in parenthesis the commentator's name.

Framed as you have stated about the 7 years:

first 3 1/2 years - the tribulation
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.

second 3 1/2 years - the great tribulation ( I am going to name a few)
1. Can't buy or sell without the 666
2. A third of the ships destroyed
3. The waters tainted
4. Global starvation
5. Heat scorches men

1 Thess.4:13-18 is prophecy about the rapture of the Church. 1 Thess.5 is prophecy in which Paul is comparing the conditions of the believer to those who are not.

My posts #47 and #51 cover this issue as far as I will interface on it with you any further. For more verification of the coming tribulation, see my post @



Quasar92