The Spectacular Pre-Tribulation Rapture

keras

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The following is a four post link in full Biblical teaching verification of the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul; posted on this site many times over that refute you. Yet you continue call them all liars. Either field a Scriptural based argument supporting your views, or they remain refuted.
Just post for us ONE verse that actually says God will take the Church to heaven.

All what Jesus and the Apostles and especially the OT prophets, said about the last days: clearly refutes the idea of a removal of the Lord's people.

We must be tried and tested and if you want to escape that, then you are not a son of God. Hebrews 12:8
 
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Douggg

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All what Jesus and the Apostles and especially the OT prophets, said about the last days: clearly refutes the idea of a removal of the Lord's people.
no, no, no....bad, bad, bad. Luke 21:34-36 and Revelation 3:10
 
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keras

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no, no, no....bad, bad, bad. Luke 21:34-36 and Revelation 3:10
Your rebuttals are just as useless as Quasars!
Jesus and the Apostles made it plain that the ethnic people lost their claim to the Kingdom. Matthew 21:43 The holy people of God are now every individual who believes in God and is born again in the Spirit of Jesus.
Therefore, we Christians; as the Israelites of God, His Overcomers, are the inheritors of God's promises to Israel. Proved by: Ephesians 1:11-14, Romans 2:29, Romans 8:16-18, Galatians 3:29, +
This truth makes a rapture to heaven impossible, as it is Christians as God's holy people, who will occupy all the holy Land until Jesus comes. Romans 9:26
 
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Douggg

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Your rebuttals are just as useless as Quasars!
Jesus and the Apostles made it plain that the ethnic people lost their claim to the Kingdom. Matthew 21:43 The holy people of God are now every individual who believes in God and is born again in the Spirit of Jesus.
Therefore, we Christians; as the Israelites of God, His Overcomers, are the inheritors of God's promises to Israel. Proved by: Ephesians 1:11-14, Romans 2:29, Romans 8:16-18, Galatians 3:29, +
This truth makes a rapture to heaven impossible, as it is Christians as God's holy people, who will occupy all the holy Land until Jesus comes. Romans 9:26
Christians are new creations in Christ, neither Jew nor Gentile. Jesus said to store up treasure in heaven.because there too will your heart be.

Matthew 6
19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Israelite's are the blood descendants of Jacob, Israel. As such, they have been promised the land of Israel as their forever. It is such a minute petty thing for Christians to even want to replace them to that promise. God can make a million lands. God can do anything. He can speak, and create a 1967 Camaro - exactly - from nothing - complete with 5W30 motor oil. A person will grow tired of "things" over time. They are an illusion to real treasure, which is...

The treasure of Christians has nothing to do with this earth or any.... thing. Our treasure is the Lord Jesus Christ - not what he creates. We have the greatest treasure there could ever be, and that is the Holy Spirit's presence in our souls, who lives in us, forever... whether in this current body, or absent from this body, or in the incorruptible eternal body to come.


1Corinthians6:
17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

Being a Jew.... or Gentile, is nothing. Being a Christian is everything. We each should be praying night and day - thank you, Lord Jesus, for coming into this world to save me.

 
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BABerean2

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Israelite's are the blood descendants of Jacob, Israel. As such, they have been promised the land of Israel as their forever. It is such a minute petty thing for Christians to even want to replace them to that promise.

In the parable of the tenants from Matthew 21:33-43 the one who is the ultimate fulfillment of Israel reveals that the land belongs to Him.

He also said the kingdom would be taken away from those who reject the "chief cornerstone" and it would be given to another nation bringing forth fruit.


In 1 Peter 2:4-10 Peter reveals who is this "Holy nation" who accepted the "chief cornerstone".

Those who think God has made promises only fulfilled to a group of people based on bloodline, but who reject His Son, need to read the scripture below.


1Ti 1:4  nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith. 




1Jn 2:22  Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 
1Jn 2:23  Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 


Those who reject God's Son are no different than the Israelites who worshipped Baal, during the time of Elijah.
What happened to those Israelites?


.
 
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Douggg

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In the parable of the tenants from Matthew 21:33-43 the one who is the ultimate fulfillment of Israel reveals that the land belongs to Him.

He also said the kingdom would be taken away from those who reject the "chief cornerstone" and it would be given to another nation bringing forth fruit.


In 1 Peter 2:4-10 Peter reveals who is this "Holy nation" who accepted the "chief cornerstone".

Those who think God has made promises only fulfilled to a group of people based on bloodline, but who reject His Son, need to read the scripture below.


1Ti 1:4  nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith. 




1Jn 2:22  Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 
1Jn 2:23  Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 


Those who reject God's Son are no different than the Israelites who worshipped Baal, during the time of Elijah.
What happened to those Israelites?


.
Nobody is saying a person is saved by virtue of being a Jew... or Gentile.

That generation of Israel lost out on the Kingdom of God, but another nation of Israel, another generation, will receive the Kingdom of God - which is this generation, albeit they are not there yet.

To enter the Kingdom of God, a person has to be born again, a new creation in Christ, neither Jew nor Gentile.

BAB2, is it necessary for Christians to say "blessed is he who comes in the name of Lord", referring to Jesus before he comes again to this earth? That message isn't to us. It wouldn't make sense to be to us.
 
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Quasar92

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It does not say 7 year tribulation in the text of Daniel 9:27. It does not say great tribulation in the text of Daniel 9:27 either.

The great tribulation begins when the abomination of desolation is standing in the holy place spoken of by the prophet Daniel. Information of when that will be during the 7 years is by deduction - by subtracting, day 2520 (7 years) minus 1335 days = day 1185.

Therefore, from day 1 of the confirming of the covenant - on day 1185, the great tribulation will begin will lasts 1335 days.


The tribulation period of time comes from the 70 weeks prophecy in Dan.9:27. Review the following. Your reference to 1335 days is out of context and properly described in Dan.12.

Seventy Weeks Are Determined Upon Thy People!

The following is a complete analysis Of the amazing prophecy found in the book of Daniel. We will begin in Dan.9:24 where the angel Gabriel is giving this prophecy to Daniel, the prophet.

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and the prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

1. Referrence here is to what God has decreed upon Daniel's people, Israel. [It has nothing at all to do with the church!]

2. See Gen.29:27 to explain that this biblical term of "one week" equals seven years. So the 70 weeks here, represents a total of 490 years, or 7 X 70.]

Vs.25. "Know, therefore, and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah, the Prince, shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks; [49 + 420 + 14 = 483 years, covering 69 of the 70 weeks,] the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times." [See Neh.2:1-8.]

According to Sir Robert Armstrong, of the Royal Observatory, Greenwich, England, the exact date of King Artaxerxes, of Persia, gave the decree for some of the Israeli exiles to return to Jerusalem on March 14, 446 BC.

[From 446 B.C. to Messiah the Prince, in Dan.9:25, equates into 69 Weeks, or 483 years, leaving the 70th and final Week of 7 years yet to be fulfilled].

From the 69 weeks [Of years] from above, or 483 years, multiplied by the 360 days of the Hebrew year, equals 173,880 days.

Vs.26. "And after threescore and two weeks..."[Which followed the first 7 weeks, or 49 years of vs 25, referring to the dedication of the completed building of the city and walls of Jerusalem, in the 32nd year of the Persian king, Artaxerxes, in the 7th month, [Neh.5:14 and 8:1] leaving 62 more weeks, or 434 more years [For a total of 69 weeks, or 483 years] to the triumphant entry of Jesus into Jerusalem]. Culminating in a total of 69 weeks, or 483 years from the Persian King, Artaxerxes Decree on March 14th, 446 BC. and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary, and the end of it shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

After Jesus was crucified, the Roman [prince] Titus comes with his legions and destroyed Jerusalem and the second temple in 70 AD, after bitter fighting, scattering Israel and the Jewish people into their diaspora.

To establish the time Jesus began His ministry, and approximate age, we find the evidence in Luke 3:1 and 3:23.

Lk.3:1. "Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilot being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip, tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Thrachonitis and Lysanias, the tetrarch of Abilene, Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John, the son of Zacharias, in the wilderness."

Which brings us to 29 AD and Jesus is about 30 years of age.

Lk.3:23. "And Jesus Himself began to be about 30 years of age, [When all Jewish priests begin their priesthood.]being [as was supposed] the son of Joseph, who was the son of Heli,"

Back to Daniel's prophecy of 70 weeks of years decreed upon his people, for a moment. We have determined as we fast close on all of the 69 weeks, 483 years, and 173,880 days in the Hebrew 360 day year as to exactly where it will take us.

Jn.12:12-13. "On the next day many people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, Took branches of palm trees and and went forth to meet Him, and cried Hosanna! Blessed is the King of Israel, that cometh in the name of the Lord." April 6th 32 AD. [According to the Royal Observatory, Greenwich, England.]

Exactly 173,880 days from King Artaxerxes of Persia, decree of March 14,446 BC. [From Neh.2:1-8. Based on the 360 day Hebrew year. Which makes no difference whatever from a 365.2425 day year, when all the necessary corrections are made].

360 X 483 = 173,880 days.

1. 32 years [AD] X 365 days in our year = 11,680 days.
2. 445 years [BC] X 365 days in our year = 162,425 days.
3. Total 174,105 days divided by 365 = 477 years.
4. Plus 24 days between the date of the decree in 445 BC and Jesus cut-off in 32 AD = 477 years, 24 days
5. Subtract one year because there is no year zero between 1 BC and 1 AD. = 476 years, 24 days.
6. 476 years X 365 days = 173,740 days +24 = 173,764 Days
7. Add days of the leap years over 476 years. Divided by 4 = 119 days = 173,883 days
8. Subtract 1/128 Calendar year day for every solar year: Leap year omitted every 128 years.= -3 days = 173,880 days!

Which reveals the 360 day prophetic year of Israel is the very same as our present 365.2425 day year when all the corrections have been made to the latter.

The 70th week of Daniel's prophecy, of the final 7 years, is the Tribulation, or Jacob's Trouble [Jer.30:7.] which will conclude the 490 year prophecy decreed upon his people, with a 2,000 year parenthetic in between, that covers the entire church age!

Dan.9:27. "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week; and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."


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Quasar92

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Just post for us ONE verse that actually says God will take the Church to heaven.

All what Jesus and the Apostles and especially the OT prophets, said about the last days: clearly refutes the idea of a removal of the Lord's people.

We must be tried and tested and if you want to escape that, then you are not a son of God. Hebrews 12:8


You have been provided Scriptural proof through the teachings of Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul about the coming pre-trib rapture o the Church. But it is clear, your M/O towards them, "is don't bother me with the facts." And you just keep on delivering your false assessment of end time prophecy! See Jn.14:2-3, 28! Review the following from post #3 below:

>>>Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church

The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:

1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.<<<


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BABerean2

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Nobody is saying a person is saved by virtue of being a Jew... or Gentile.

That generation of Israel lost out on the Kingdom of God, but another nation of Israel, another generation, will receive the Kingdom of God - which is this generation, albeit they are not there yet.

To enter the Kingdom of God, a person has to be born again, a new creation in Christ, neither Jew nor Gentile.

BAB2, is it necessary for Christians to say "blessed is he who comes in the name of Lord", referring to Jesus before he comes again to this earth? That message isn't to us. It wouldn't make sense to be to us.

Tremendous confusion is created by taking an Old Testament verse and making a claim about what "makes sense" to us, without viewing it through the eyes of the New Testament writers.

Who are "us"?

The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

On the Day of Pentecost Peter addressed the crowd as "men of Judea" and then "men of Israel" and in Acts 2:36 as "all the house of Israel". On that day about 3,000 Israelites accepted the New Covenant and fulfilled many of the Old Testament prophecies similar to the one you mentioned above. When the Church first began almost all of its members were Israelites. The Gentiles were grafted into the New Covenant several years later.

The most important genealogy in the Bible is found in Matthew 1:1. This is confirmed by Paul in Galatians 3:16.

"us" are grafted into the promises of the New Covenant made in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

There is no Plan B, outside of the New Covenant Church.

.
 
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Douggg

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The 70th week of Daniel's prophecy, of the final 7 years, is the Tribulation, or Jacob's Trouble [Jer.30:7.] ...

Q, the text of Daniel 9:27 does not say Tribulation anywhere in it. Nor does it say Great Tribulation anywhere in Daniel 9:27.

The 7 years are not called 7 year tribulation anywhere in the Bible. It is a concoction by some Christians to call the 7 years either "the tribulation period" or "7 years tribulation" or "the tribulation".

But what is in the bible is great tribulation. And the ONLY tie to the great tribulation is the abomination spoken of by Daniel the prophet. Which Daniel 12 DOES give a time indicator - 1335 days. Blessed is he who remains until the 1335th day.

Pre-trib is a misnomer.... since the term is not found in the bible describing a certain period. What it should be called is the Pre-70th week view.

Post-trib is a misnomer as well.

Mid-trib is a misnomer also.

My view, which I came to after 40 years of arguing this stuff till the chickens come home to roost, and knowing all the rationale and arguments that pre-trib, post trib, mid trib present and the flaws of each - my view I call the "anytime" rapture view because it is based on Luke 21:34-36, and "any time" is found in the text. Unlike your pre-tribulation view.

The rapture can happen anytime between now and when it actually does. It might be before the 70th weeks start. Or it might not be.

Luke 21:
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

In both the post trib view and the pre trib view - people start getting fanatical about it... that theirs is the only legimate view.... when both views are based on the term the tribulation (period) which not even found in the bible. :doh:
 
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“Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, cruel, with fury and burning anger, to make the land a desolation; and He will exterminate its sinners from it. The earth is broken asunder, the earth is split through, the earth is shaken violently. The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard and it totters like a shack, for its transgression is heavy upon it, and it will fall, never to rise again.” (Isaiah 13:9; 24:19-20 emphasis added)

Scripture assures us through the prophet Isaiah that the “day of the Lord” is in reference to the seven-year Tribulation. Its purpose is to exterminate unrepentant sinners and destroy wickedness out of the earth for good. The judgments of the Tribulation will forever destroy the transgressions of the godless masses—“never to rise again.”

Another major purpose of the day of the Lord is to bring about worldwide revival through the efforts of the 144,000 Jewish witnesses, specially anointed and protected by God (Revelation 7:1-4).

Furthermore, another crucially important objective of the Tribulation is to fracture the stubborn will of the Jewish nation—Israel (the holy people) and bring about national regeneration (Daniel 12:5-7). Those who remain rebellious will be eliminated, making it possible for an entirely new nation (which has been regenerated) to enter into the Millennium and be given the Promised Land by Jesus Himself. Once Israel recognizes Jesus as her Messiah, repents and cries out to Him, the Lord will return and the Tribulation will come to an end (Hosea 5:15; 6:1-3).

In the book of Revelation John is caught-up to heaven which is symbolic of the Church being caught-up to heaven before the Tribulation begins:

Revelation 4:1 – “After these things I saw, and behold, a door opened in heaven, and the first voice that I heard, a voice as of a trumpet speaking with me, one saying, ‘Come up hither, and I will show thee the things which must come to pass hereafter.’”

It’s time for the Church to go home: The door in heaven is opened signaling that believers of the Church Age are about to be caught-up to heaven. When a voice of a trumpet says, Come up hither, it is the command for believers to be raptured, as Paul wrote in 1 Thessalonians:

“For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

The voice of the archangel will shout, Come up hither, and all living believers will be raptured; the dead in Christ will rise first to meet Jesus in the air. The Church is seen here in heaven, represented by the 24 elders and also as the myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands (Rev. 4:4, 10-11; 5:14). Yet, she is not seen again until chapter 19 of Revelation.

The Church is not seen during the Tribulation because she has been taken to heaven. Revelation chapter 4 begins with the statement, After these things—that is, after the Church Age.

Another indicator that the Church is not here during the Tribulation is this important sequence of Scripture: After each of the messages of the seven churches, God says, He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.

But in Revelation 13:9, long after the events of chapter 4, God says, If any man hath an ear, let him hear. He leaves off the words what the Spirit saith to the churches because the Church is no longer on earth, she is with the Lord in heaven.

We also know the Church does not go into the Tribulation because of powerful symbols of her in the Old Testament. Enoch is a symbol of the Church because he was “caught away” just prior to the flood of Noah’s day (Genesis 5:24). Noah is a symbol of the Rapture because he was carried away to safety in the Ark before the flood came.

Another symbol of the Church in the Old Testament is Lot and his family. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit visited Abraham and told him that Sodom would be destroyed. Abraham tried to talk God out of destroying the city and begged that if just ten righteous people could be found in it that it would be spared (Genesis 18:20-33).

God agreed, but only one righteous man—Lot, was found. The Lord sent angels as His emissaries to Sodom to rescue Lot and his family. They acted on His behalf and forcibly took Lot, his wife and their two daughters out of Sodom before destroying Sodom, Gomorrah and the three other cities nearby in the valley of Siddim—Admah, Zeboiim and Bela (Zoar) as cited in Genesis 14:8.

“Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven, and He overthrew those cities, and all thevalley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.” (Genesis 19:24-25)

We hear the words Come up hither again later in Revelation chapter 11; the Two Witnesses are raptured during the Tribulation. But that is the only rapture within the time span of the seven-year Tribulation prior to Christ’s Second Coming.

“And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, ‘Come up hither. And they went up into heaven in the cloud; and their enemies beheld them.’” (Revelation 11:12).

These are the major positions that exist regarding the Rapture. (The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is the correct one):

Pre-Tribulation Rapture teaches Jesus Christ will rapture the Church before the start of the Tribulation.

Mid-Tribulation Rapture teaches Jesus Christ will rapture the Church at the mid-point of the Tribulation.

Post-Tribulation Rapture teaches Jesus Christ will rapture the Church at the end of the Tribulation.

Pre-Wrath Rapture teaches Jesus Christ will rapture the Church near the end of the Tribulation just before the pouring out of the wrath of God through the seven bowl plagues (Revelation 16:1).

It is important to note that nowhere in Scripture do we read that the Tribulation is anyone else’s “wrath” other than God Almighty’s and His alone. The prophesied seven-year Tribulation is God’s wrath pouring down upon an out-of-control God-rejecting world.

The terror of the Antichrist fueled by Satan is a by-product of mankind’s rejection of God, and cannot be substantiated with Scripture as Antichrist’s, Satan’s and mankind’s wrath—unless one inserts extra-biblical ideas into the text creating a false doctrine.

And there is another major and obvious problem with any of the Rapture positions outside of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture:

Jesus does not make any appearances in Scripture during the Tribulation until the marriage of the Lamb in chapter 19 which eliminates the idea of the Rapture event taking place anytime other than prior to the Tribulation.

Jesus comes to earth before the Tribulation begins to take His Church off the planet, and He returns at the end of the Tribulation at the Second Coming with His Church (Revelation 19:11-14).

The rapture of Enoch and Elijah are symbolic of the Church being raptured before Daniel’s Seventieth Week (the Tribulation) begins. These biblically recorded events are symbolic of the Church being removed before the God pours out his wrath upon the godless inhabitants of earth—the unsaved masses that remain after the Rapture of the Church.

The rapture of Enoch is not specifically called a rapture but from the following Scripture we can see that he was raptured. The Scripture simply says, “Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him” (Genesis 5:24).

Elijah was taken up in a chariot of fire in a whirlwind: “And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, which parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven” (2 Kings 2:11).

It appears that Elijah boarded the chariot of fire which was then carried up into the sky by a whirlwind—God’s whirlwind. We cannot know exactly what chariots of fire or horses of fire are, but they are cited a number times in Scripture (2 Samuel 22:11; 2 Kings 6:17-18; Psalm 68:17; 104:3; Isaiah 66:15; Jeremiah 4:13; Ezekiel 1:4-28; 10:1-22).

The promise to the church of Philadelphia to be kept from the “hour of trial” is a promise of being raptured before the start of the Tribulation.

“Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.” (Revelation 3:10 emphasis added)

Daniel’s Seventieth Week is the “hour of trial” and all believers of the Church Age must be taken out before it begins because that is the time when God pours out His judgments—His wrath.

The promise that “God appointed us not for wrath, but unto the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Thessalonians 5:9), is a confirmation that true Christians must be raptured prior to the start of the Tribulation.

Another important point is this: The twenty-four elders seen in chapters four and five of Revelation represent believers of the Church Age—which means that the Rapture must take place by Revelation chapter four—before the Tribulation (the day of the Lord) begins.


By Kit R. Olsen


Quasar92

Dont you see how you are using speculation and conjecture? Johns Vision, the door opened was not symbolic of any rapture. You are speculating that. I couldnt even read your full post because every line was speculation and conjecture up until where I quit.


Let me just tell you that when the mark of the beast comes out, the people who dole out the actual mark might argue with a christian something like this: "No, of course this isn't the mark of the beast. You would have been raptured out already if it was! Isnt that what your Bible says?"

Fact of the matter is that it is NOT what the Bible says at all! Quite the opposite. The pre tribulation rapture is purely conjecture of scripture and speculation of what some scriptures mean. Thats all.
 
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Quasar92

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Q, the text of Daniel 9:27 does not say Tribulation anywhere in it. Nor does it say Great Tribulation anywhere in Daniel 9:27.

The 7 years are not called 7 year tribulation anywhere in the Bible. It is a concoction by some Christians to call the 7 years either "the tribulation period" or "7 years tribulation" or "the tribulation".

But what is in the bible is great tribulation. And the ONLY tie to the great tribulation is the abomination spoken of by Daniel the prophet. Which Daniel 12 DOES give a time indicator - 1335 days. Blessed is he who remains until the 1335th day.

Pre-trib is a misnomer.... since the term is not found in the bible describing a certain period. What it should be called is the Pre-70th week view.

Post-trib is a misnomer as well.

Mid-trib is a misnomer also.

My view, which I came to after 40 years of arguing this stuff till the chickens come home to roost, and knowing all the rationale and arguments that pre-trib, post trib, mid trib present and the flaws of each - my view I call the "anytime" rapture view because it is based on Luke 21:34-36, and "any time" is found in the text. Unlike your pre-tribulation view.

The rapture can happen anytime between now and when it actually does. It might be before the 70th weeks start. Or it might not be.

Luke 21:
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

In both the post trib view and the pre trib view - people start getting fanatical about it... that theirs is the only legimate view.... when both views are based on the term the tribulation (period) which not even found in the bible. :doh:


Where, may I ask, did you obtain qualifications to teach the Bible, let alone eschatology? Review the following:

Nt.24:21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will."


Quasar92
 
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Douggg

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Where, may I ask, did you obtain qualifications to teach the Bible, let alone eschatology? Review the following:

Nt.24:21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will."


Quasar92
Why are you so hung up on "qualifications to teach the bible" ? God makes some persons teachers as He wills. He makes some prophets. He makes some pastors. Take it up with Him.

There are no elites in this forum. Everyone here are equals.

You wrote... Review the following:

Nt.24:21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will."

It says "great tribulation" not tribulation. In Revelation 7, it says "great tribulation, not tribulation.

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Q, there is not a term 7 year tribulation in the bible. The pre-trib rapture term is a mis-nomer, as is post-trib and mid-trib. The correct thing to say would be pre-70th week, post-70th week, mid-70th week.
 
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Quasar92

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Dont you see how you are using speculation and conjecture? Johns Vision, the door opened was not symbolic of any rapture. You are speculating that. I couldnt even read your full post because every line was speculation and conjecture up until where I quit.

Let me just tell you that when the mark of the beast comes out, the people who dole out the actual mark might argue with a christian something like this: "No, of course this isn't the mark of the beast. You would have been raptured out already if it was! Isnt that what your Bible says?"

Fact of the matter is that it is NOT what the Bible says at all! Quite the opposite. The pre tribulation rapture is purely conjecture of scripture and speculation of what some scriptures mean. Thats all.


According to what Scriptural verification to support your above meaningless opinions?

Review the following four post link with the Biblical teaching of the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, as taught by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul.

The first two posts cover the Scriptural facts, the third post provides the chronological order of end time events and the fourth post is a listings of men of God from every walk of Christian teachings who fully endorse the pre-trib rapture of the Church.

With that having been said, provide me with your Scripturally based views refuting any part of those posts, or it is your views that are false, you need to do some serious rethinking on.

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church - a deeper walk...


Quasar92
 
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Why are you so hung up on "qualifications to teach the bible" ? God makes some persons teachers as He wills. He makes some prophets. He makes some pastors. Take it up with Him.

There are no elites in this forum. Everyone here are equals.

You wrote... Review the following:

Nt.24:21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will."

It says "great tribulation" not tribulation. In Revelation 7, it says "great tribulation, not tribulation.

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Q, there is not a term 7 year tribulation in the bible. The pre-trib rapture term is a mis-nomer, as is post-trib and mid-trib. The correct thing to say would be pre-70th week, post-70th week, mid-70th week.


According to your ongoing argument that has nothing to do with the subject of this thread, there is no need for those who work hard at study and research to bring the proper meaning and interpretation of the Bible to those who want to know and to learn.

How sad the conditions would be without them. As it was in early aviation, before planes were equipped with flight instruments, the pilots would hang a plumb bob from the ceiling of the cockpit and fly the plane from it when visibility was not clear. You've answered my question, loud and clear.


Quasar92
 
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Douggg

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According to your ongoing argument that has nothing to do with the subject of this thread, there is no need for those who work hard at study and research to bring the proper meaning and interpretation of the Bible to those who want to know and to learn.

How sad the conditions would be without them. As it was in early aviation, before planes were equipped with flight instruments, the pilots would hang a plumb bob from the ceiling of the cockpit and fly the plane from it when visibility was not clear. You've answered my question, loud and clear.


Quasar92
Q, what is paramount in this forum is pursuit of the truth regarding eschatology.
 
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Quasar92

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Why are you so hung up on "qualifications to teach the bible" ? God makes some persons teachers as He wills. He makes some prophets. He makes some pastors. Take it up with Him.

There are no elites in this forum. Everyone here are equals.

You wrote... Review the following:

Nt.24:21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will."

It says "great tribulation" not tribulation. In Revelation 7, it says "great tribulation, not tribulation.

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Q, there is not a term 7 year tribulation in the bible. The pre-trib rapture term is a mis-nomer, as is post-trib and mid-trib. The correct thing to say would be pre-70th week, post-70th week, mid-70th week.


Your argument is from an empty wagon. The Great Tribulation is the final 3.5 years of the seven year tribulation represented by Daniel, in 9:27. Amplified in Jesus Olivet Discourse in Mt.24; Mk.13 and in Lk.21. As well as being amplified even more so in Rev.6.

As for your remark that truth is sought here on this forum, is what I consider, you're calling me a liar. FYI, you best be aware of your own views you propogate without any formal qualifications to support your authority to do so.


Quasar92
 
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Douggg

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Your argument is from an empty wagon. The Great Tribulation is the final 3.5 years of the seven year tribulation represented by Daniel, in 9:27. Amplified in Jesus Olivet Discourse in Mt.24; Mk.13 and in Lk.21. As well as being amplified even more so in Rev.6.

As for your remark that truth is sought here on this forum, is what I consider, you're calling me a liar. FYI, you best be aware of your own views you propogate without any formal qualifications to support your authority to do so.


Quasar92
Q, I copied and pasted the exact text from the bible and underlined that it said "great tribulation" not "tribulation". If you can find the term "7year tribulation" in the bible, then provide the verse and underline it. But you are not going to be able to because it is not there.
 
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BABerean2

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The Great Tribulation is the final 3.5 years of the seven year tribulation represented by Daniel, in 9:27.

Based on the logic you often use about being "qualified" to teach the Bible, Dr. Kelly Varner would be more qualified than you, since he has attained his "doctoral degree" in Theology.

Therefore, based on your logic, he must be the expert.
Let us see what he says about Daniel chapter 9.


Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner




.
 
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