The sheep and goat judgment of Matthew 25: The Progressive Dispensationalist view

[Spiritual Jew]

The Lord will rule through Israel at His coming and then in the NHNE He will rule through those he has prepared for the different realms.

You have not addressed that it is ONLY the nations (not Jewish but Gentiles) before the Lord and not also the Jews.

I've already explained how I understand the passage. What more do you want me to do? Obviously, I disagree with your understanding that it's only talking about Gentile nations before the Lord. No, it's all people, saved and lost, who will be standing before His throne to give an account of themselves. Your interpretation does not agree with other scripture which talks about the day of judgment. Why do you not take those into account?

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Can you see here that Paul taught that all people, saved and lost, will "stand before the judgment seat of Christ"? That is what Matthew 25:31-46 is depicting.

Also, scripture repeatedly speaks of one judgment day, not multiple judgment days as you believe in. Again, why do you not take this into account when interpreting Matthew 25:31-46?

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

 

[Marilyn C]

Again, that proves absolutely nothing as it relates to Matthew 25:31-46. In that passage it is VERY clear that the sheep and goats are gathered at the same time. How else could they be separated from each other if they are not gathered at the same time? And it's not the case that the goats are sent to the graves. It says they are separated on each side of the throne, so both groups are still by the throne even after being separated. Please address this.


This is not indicated whatsoever in Matthew 25:31-46, though. One taken and one left has to do with people who are alive on earth when Jesus comes. One will be killed and one will remain alive. Those who are alive and remain are said to be caught up to meet the Lord in the air when H comes (1 Thess 4:14-17). So, that separation occurs just BEFORE the separation which occurs after all people are gathered before His throne. The context of Matthew 24:37-41 is completely different than the context of Matthew 25:31-46. Matthew 25:31-46 occurs just AFTER Matthew 24:37-41 occurs.

As I said it is a pictorial representation. The nations do not travel all over the earth and come and stand before the Lord in Jerusalem when he comes. You are mixing up that time and the GWT.

Matt. 25 does NOT refer to the rapture as that revelation was NOT revealed until the Lord ascended and gave it to Paul.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The Body of Christ and the OT saints will NOT be judged as the Lord has taken our judgment upon Him on the cross.

We will not be condemned, if that's what you mean. I hope you know better than to think I was saying that? Of course, I was not. But, we will all have to stand before Christ to give an account of ourselves and that is what Matthew 25:31-46 is depicting.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

 

[Marilyn C]

I've already explained how I understand the passage. What more do you want me to do? Obviously, I disagree with your understanding that it's only talking about Gentile nations before the Lord. No, it's all people, saved and lost, who will be standing before His throne to give an account of themselves. Your interpretation does not agree with other scripture which talks about the day of judgment. Why do you not take those into account?

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Can you see here that Paul taught that all people, saved and lost, will "stand before the judgment seat of Christ"? That is what Matthew 25:31-46 is depicting.

Also, scripture repeatedly speaks of one judgment day, not multiple judgment days as you believe in. Again, why do you not take this into account when interpreting Matthew 25:31-46?

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

At the GWT all are from the graves and are just spirits. They are not given new bodies. While in Matt. 25 all are in their bodies. Different times there.

 

[Marilyn C]

We will not be condemned, if that's what you mean. I hope you know better than to think I was saying that? Of course, I was not. But, we will all have to stand before Christ to give an account of ourselves.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Rev. 20: 11 - 15 reveals that it is those in the graves, in the sea, in Hades. However, the Body of Christ will be on the Lord`s own throne in the third heaven. (Rev. 3: 21) And before that those believers who died are in the General Assembly, (Heb. 12: 22 & 23) so no believer is in the grave, no believer goes to the GWT ONLY THOSE (not believers) IN THE GRAVES.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

As I said it is a pictorial representation. The nations do not travel all over the earth and come and stand before the Lord in Jerusalem when he comes. You are mixing up that time and the GWT.

No, I'm not. Scripture does not teach multiple judgment days as you believe. You are contradicting verses like this:

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Don't get confused by the English word "nations" there in Matthew 25:31-46. That is translated from the Greek word "ethnos" and that word has multiple meanings, including nations, people in general, the heathen and Gentiles. A better translation of the word in this case is people in general because it's talking about all people, saved and lost, being gathered before the throne with saved people being separated from lost people and then each individual person being either rewarded or condemned.

Matt. 25 does NOT refer to the rapture as that revelation was NOT revealed until the Lord ascended and gave it to Paul.

I can't take this argument seriously. Where are you getting this idea from? Maybe not all the details about it had been revealed until Paul wrote 1 Thess 4:14-17, but it had already been alluded to before then, such as in passages like Matthew 24:29-31 (also Mark 13:26-27) which speaks of the gathering of the elect at the second coming.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

At the GWT all are from the graves and are just spirits. They are not given new bodies. While in Matt. 25 all are in their bodies. Different times there.

What? You have some very strange beliefs. Spirits aren't in graves, bodies are. The spirits of dead people are either in heaven or hell.

So, when do you think the following will occur then:

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This talks about people being bodily resurrected and then judged. You have Matthew 25:31-46 as only referring to living people (not any of whom were dead and were resurrected) and then you have Rev 20:11-15 as only referring to spirits. Where does this give any chance for what Jesus described in John 5:28-29 to occur?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Rev. 20: 11 - 15 reveals that it is those in the graves, in the sea, in Hades. However, the Body of Christ will be on the Lord`s own throne in the third heaven. (Rev. 3: 21) And before that those believers who died are in the General Assembly, (Heb. 12: 22 & 23) so no believer is in the grave, no believer goes to the GWT ONLY THOSE (not believers) IN THE GRAVES.

I have no idea of what you're trying to say here. The graves refer to where people's dead bodies are. All of the dead, including the saved and the lost, will be bodily resurrected in the future, as Jesus taught in John 5:28-29. And all people will stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account of themselves, as Paul taught in Romans 14:10-12. So, your beliefs about this contradict passages like those. I find your beliefs to be very convoluted and practically impossible to make any sense out of them. Do you know of anyone anywhere who agrees with you on these things?

 

[Marilyn C]

No, I'm not. Scripture does not teach multiple judgment days as you believe. You are contradicting verses like this:

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Don't get confused by the English word "nations" there in Matthew 25:31-46. That is translated from the Greek word "ethnos" and that word has multiple meanings, including nations, people in general, the heathen and Gentiles. A better translation of the word in this case is people in general because it's talking about all people, saved and lost, being gathered before the throne with saved people being separated from lost people and then each individual person being either rewarded or condemned.


I can't take this argument seriously. Where are you getting this idea from? Maybe not all the details about it had been revealed until Paul wrote 1 Thess 4:14-17, but it had already been alluded to before then, such as in passages like Matthew 24:29-31 (also Mark 13:26-27) which speaks of the gathering of the elect at the second coming.

Israel is also called the elect.

 

[Marilyn C]

What? You have some very strange beliefs. Spirits aren't in graves, bodies are. The spirits of dead people are either in heaven or hell.

So, when do you think the following will occur then:

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This talks about people being bodily resurrected and then judged. You have Matthew 25:31-46 as only referring to living people (not any of whom were dead and were resurrected) and then you have Rev 20:11-15 as only referring to spirits. Where does this give any chance for what Jesus described in John 5:28-29 to occur?

I`ll make it very simple and clear -

1. Matt. 25. ALL ARE ALIVE. `2 men in the field....2 women grinding at the mill...`

2. Rev. 20 & John 5. ALL ARE DEAD. `In the graves, sea or Hades.`

 

[Marilyn C]

I have no idea of what you're trying to say here. The graves refer to where people's dead bodies are. All of the dead, including the saved and the lost, will be bodily resurrected in the future, as Jesus taught in John 5:28-29. And all people will stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account of themselves, as Paul taught in Romans 14:10-12. So, your beliefs about this contradict passages like those. I find your beliefs to be very convoluted and practically impossible to make any sense out of them. Do you know of anyone anywhere who agrees with you on these things?

As above.

The judgment seat of Christ is the Bema seat where rewards are handed out. This is well known. Look up `Bema Seat.`

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Israel is also called the elect.

Israelite believers are (not unbeliever), but so are Gentile believers.

Here is Paul speaking to the church of the Colossians which included Gentiles:

Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Here is Paul speaking to the church of the Thessalonians that included Gentiles:

1 Thessalonians 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

I can give other examples, but this should be enough for you to see my point.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I`ll make it very simple and clear -

1. Matt. 25. ALL ARE ALIVE. `2 men in the field....2 women grinding at the mill...`

2. Rev. 20 & John 5. ALL ARE DEAD. `In the graves, sea or Hades.`

1. You are referring to Matthew 24 (2 men in the field, 2 women grinding at the mill), not Matthew 25. They have different contexts as I already explained to you.

2. The dead will all be resurrected according to Jesus in John 5:28-29. You do not interpret scripture with scripture. You interpret one passage in such a way that contradicts others.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

As above.

The judgment seat of Christ is the Bema seat where rewards are handed out. This is well known. Look up `Bema Seat.`

No, not just rewards. Unbelievers will appear before the judgment seat of Christ as well. As can be clearly seen in Matthew 25:31-46, but can also be seen from understanding the context of what Paul wrote here:

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

When it says every knee shall bow and every tongue confess to God before the judgment seat of Christ is this just talking about believers who will be rewarded? No, absolutely not. It's also talking about unbelievers who will be punished. Paul was referencing this Old Testament passage:

Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 24 Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

Notice that this is talking about when every knee shall bow before him and it says "all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed". So, unbelievers will be there as well, but they will be ashamed because they had not repented and put their faith and trust in Him when they had the chance.

 

[Marilyn C]

Israelite believers are (not unbeliever), but so are Gentile believers.

Here is Paul speaking to the church of the Colossians which included Gentiles:

Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Here is Paul speaking to the church of the Thessalonians that included Gentiles:

1 Thessalonians 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

I can give other examples, but this should be enough for you to see my point.

`For Jacob my servant`s sake, and ISRAEL MY ELECT.` (Isa. 45: 4)

 

[Marilyn C]

1. You are referring to Matthew 24 (2 men in the field, 2 women grinding at the mill), not Matthew 25. They have different contexts as I already explained to you.

2. The dead will all be resurrected according to Jesus in John 5:28-29. You do not interpret scripture with scripture. You interpret one passage in such a way that contradicts others.

Sorry I must have missed your `different contexts.` So, you think that all the people of the world will make their way from New Zealand and Iceland etc over to Israel to stand as millions of people in the plains around Israel to be sorted out left and right. it is a pictorial representation of the `2 men, & 2 women,` one taken and one left, as in the days of Noah, taken in the flood.

 

[Marilyn C]

No, not just rewards. Unbelievers will appear before the judgment seat of Christ as well. As can be clearly seen in Matthew 25:31-46, but can also be seen from understanding the context of what Paul wrote here:

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

When it says every knee shall bow and every tongue confess to God before the judgment seat of Christ is this just talking about believers who will be rewarded? No, absolutely not. It's also talking about unbelievers who will be punished. Paul was referencing this Old Testament passage:

Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 24 Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

Notice that this is talking about when every knee shall bow before him and it says "all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed". So, unbelievers will be there as well, but they will be ashamed because they had not repented and put their faith and trust in Him when they had the chance.

Those in the B/C will be judged, rewarded as to whether we did our works by the Holy Spirit or for self. (1 Cor. 3: 13 - 15) Believers there do not go to hell.

`If anyone`s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a REWARD. `(1 cor. 3: 14)

 

[Douggg]

@Spiritual Jew

There will be the judgment seat of Christ for what believers have done for the cause of Christ while in this body. And rewarded, accordingly. During the timeframe called the Day of Christ. See my chart below.

Differently, at the end of the millennium, after it is over, is the resurrection of the rest of the dead, which will include persons who become Christians during the millennium and died during that time, and all unbelievers who have rejected the gospel down through the ages, for the Great White Throne judgment. That judgment will not be for rewards - but to determine whether a person receives eternal life or eternal damnation.

 

[Douggg]

@Spiritual Jew
@Marilyn C

Once we can identify for certain who that little horn person is - then we can know that the ToD act is not long into the future.

Which means our troubles of this world are about over and our salvation complete with the rapture/resurrection event that has to happen before the ToD act.

 

[Marilyn C]

@Spiritual Jew
@Marilyn C

Once we can identify for certain who that little horn person is - then we can know that the ToD act is not long into the future.

Which means our troubles of this world are about over and our salvation complete with the rapture/resurrection event that has to happen before the ToD act.

This is a straightforward textual issue. In 2 Thes. 2,2 the KJV has “the day of Christ” following the 1550 “Textus receptus”, which has η ημερα του χριστου. More modern translations have “the day of the lord”, following the oldest and best Greek manuscripts, which have η ημερα του κυριου, as do the ancient translations, e.g. the Vulgate with dies Domini.

I do not see the Day of Christ and the Day of the LORD (judgment, etc) as the same.