The sheep and goat judgment of Matthew 25: The Progressive Dispensationalist view

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Hi Watchman,

The Lord is NOT talking about the Body of Christ which He doesn`t reveal to the Jews in the gospels.

So, when Jesus says, "My sheep hear my voice and they follow Me", who is He talking about?

 

[Marilyn C]

So, when Jesus says, "My sheep hear my voice and they follow Me", who is He talking about?

`Jesus said - " Do not go into the way of the Gentiles....but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matt. 10: 5 & 6)

Jesus at the Feast of Dedication spoke to the Jews, " My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me." (John 10: 27)

`Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcision for the truth of God, TO CONFIRM THE PROMISES MADE TO THE FATHERS. ` (Rom. 15: 8)

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

`Jesus said - " Do not go into the way of the Gentiles....but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matt. 10: 5 & 6)

Jesus at the Feast of Dedication spoke to the Jews, " My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me." (John 10: 27)

`Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcision for the truth of God, TO CONFIRM THE PROMISES MADE TO THE FATHERS. ` (Rom. 15: 8)

So what do you think happened when the Holy Spirit fell on the household of Cornelius, in the same way that He fell on the 120 on the Day of Pentecost? Do you think it may be a fulfillment of what Jesus said, "I have sheep not of this fold which I will bring in"?

So it appears that at the Judgment, the sheep on His right hand includes both Jews and Gentiles who have repented of their sins and put their trust in Him.

 

[Guojing]

We are dealing with metaphor here. The answer is simple: The sheep are those who have accepted the Gospel of Christ and who are trusting in Christ as their Saviour. The goats are those who have rejected the Gospel and ignored the offer of salvation through Christ.

There are only two kinds of people - those who are dead in sin and those who are dead to sin. Therefore the sheep are those who are dead to sin, and the goats are those who are dead in sin.

Is there anything in that passage that tells you that, feeding and taking care of Jesus's brethren during the Tribulation was a metaphor?

How did you come up with that interpretation?

 

[Marilyn C]

So what do you think happened when the Holy Spirit fell on the household of Cornelius, in the same way that He fell on the 120 on the Day of Pentecost? Do you think it may be a fulfillment of what Jesus said, "I have sheep not of this fold which I will bring in"?

So it appears that at the Judgment, the sheep on His right hand includes both Jews and Gentiles who have repented of their sins and put their trust in Him.

The Body of Christ is neither Jew nor Gentile but the new Man. (Col. 3: 11, Eph. 2: 15)

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Matt. 25: 31 - 46 is yes, a judgment of people`s of the nations. Matt. 24: 40 & 41 reveal that one is taken away, (as in the flood v 39) and one person is left on the earth to go into the millennium.

But, Matthew 25:31-46 talks about the sheep inheriting "eternal life" in "the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world". And Paul said that mortal flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor 15:50). You are not addressing these things. You have them inheriting a temporal kingdom with mortal bodies, yet scripture indicates that they (we) will be inheriting eternal life in an eternal kingdom with immortal bodies. You seem to be ignoring the context of Matthew 25:31-46 and I wonder why.

 

[Marilyn C]

But, Matthew 25:31-46 talks about the sheep inheriting "eternal life" in "the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world". And Paul said that mortal flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor 15:50). You are not addressing these things. You have them inheriting a temporal kingdom with mortal bodies, yet scripture indicates that they (we) will be inheriting eternal life in an eternal kingdom with immortal bodies. You seem to be ignoring the context of Matthew 25:31-46 and I wonder why.

We know from Isaiah 61: 2 & Luke 4: 18, that there is a gap ( a time gap) between the first part of the sentence and the last part. So, it doesn`t mean that the `goats` went straight to everlasting punishment. We need to read all of God`s word to find out the timing for the Great White Throne judgment of those in the graves.

The `sheep,` people are only given life on the earth during the millennium. However IF they are righteous in their living then eventually they will go onto the new earth. It doesn`t say that all the sheep are given eternal life, only the righteous ones.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

We know from Isaiah 61: 2 & Luke 4: 18, that there is a gap ( a time gap) between the first part of the sentence and the last part. So, it doesn`t mean that the `goats` went straight to everlasting punishment.

No, we don't know that at all from those verses. Please explain how you are coming to that conclusion.

We know from Matthew 25:31-46 that all of the sheep and goats are gathered before the throne when Jesus comes with His angels. So, you are basically saying that the goats are gathered before the throne, but not judged until a long time afterwards. So, they are just standing there for a long time doing nothing before finally being judged. That's what you are basically saying. And that makes no sense whatsoever.

We need to read all of God`s word to find out the timing for the Great White Throne judgment of those in the graves.

I agree. And yet we still disagree on the timing of it. So, I guess there's more to it than just reading all of God's word, isn't there? We have to understand what we're reading and we can't interpret any given verse or passage in such a way that contradicts any other verse or passage of scripture.

The `sheep,` people are only given life on the earth during the millennium. However IF they are righteous in their living then eventually they will go onto the new earth. It doesn`t say that all the sheep are given eternal life, only the righteous ones.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here. The sheep are the righteous ones. The goats are the unrighteous ones. It seems that you're turning something simple into something convoluted for no real reason.

Please think about what you're saying here. You are saying that "the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world" is only a temporary kingdom and not an eternal one. That is just unbelievable to me. Prepared from the foundation of the world but only temporary and not eternal? I don't believe that makes any sense at all. And, as I pointed out before, Paul said that mortal flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor 15:50), but you have mortal flesh and blood inheriting the kingdom of God in Matthew 25:34.

 

[Marilyn C]

No, we don't know that at all from those verses. Please explain how you are coming to that conclusion.

Isaiah 61: 1 & 2 `(The Spirit of the Lord is upon me) .......To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God:...`

Luke 4: 18 `The Spirit of the Lord is upon me....to preach the acceptable year of the Lord.`

The Lord went to the synagogue on the Sabbath and was handed the book of Isaiah to read. Jesus found the place of Isa. 61: 1 & 2 and read some of it. Then He stops reading at that place mid-sentence and says `Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.` However Jesus leaves the rest of the sentence - `and the day of vengeance of our God:...` as that would not be fulfilled for over 2000 years later.

That is a time gap. (in one sentence)

 

[Marilyn C]

We know from Matthew 25:31-46 that all of the sheep and goats are gathered before the throne when Jesus comes with His angels. So, you are basically saying that the goats are gathered before the throne, but not judged until a long time afterwards. So, they are just standing there for a long time doing nothing before finally being judged. That's what you are basically saying. And that makes no sense whatsoever.

Matt. 25: 31 - 46 is a pictorial representation of what will happen. The actual working out of `separating `sheep and goats` is this -

`But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be......and they did not know until the flood came and took them away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and the other left.` (Matt. 24: 37 - 41)

The ones TAKEN, are taken away as `in the flood,` to the grave, (awaiting the GWT) and the ones LEFT are still on earth alive. They will live out their life and if righteous will go into eternal life. They are given the opportunity to live in the time when the Lord will rule through Israel, (as promised) and learn the ways of the Lord. (Micah 4: 1 - 3)

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Isaiah 61: 1 & 2 `(The Spirit of the Lord is upon me) .......To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God:...`

Luke 4: 18 `The Spirit of the Lord is upon me....to preach the acceptable year of the Lord.`

The Lord went to the synagogue on the Sabbath and was handed the book of Isaiah to read. Jesus found the place of Isa. 61: 1 & 2 and read some of it. Then He stops reading at that place mid-sentence and says `Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.` However Jesus leaves the rest of the sentence - `and the day of vengeance of our God:...` as that would not be fulfilled for over 2000 years later.

That is a time gap. (in one sentence)

And how does this prove that there is a time gap in Matthew 25:31-46? Obviously, it does not since those verses have nothing to do with Matthew 25:31-46.

Let's be clear here. It's undeniable that the sheep and goats (believers and unbelievers) are gathered before His throne at the same time. That is not up for debate since it says that very explicitly. The sheep can't be separated from the goats if they are not there at the same time, so they are clearly gathered together at the same time. Agree?
,
So, with that in mind, let's spell out what it is that you actually believe. You believe that the goats are gathered before the throne but then not actually judged until 1,000+ years later. Do you think that this can be taken seriously? It can't. You have unbelievers just standing there before the throne for 1,000+ years before anything happens to them. That is not even reasonable at all.

 

[Marilyn C]

Please think about what you're saying here. You are saying that "the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world" is only a temporary kingdom and not an eternal one. That is just unbelievable to me. Prepared from the foundation of the world but only temporary and not eternal? I don't believe that makes any sense at all. And, as I pointed out before, Paul said that mortal flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor 15:50), but you have mortal flesh and blood inheriting the kingdom of God in Matthew 25:34.

The word `kingdom` means rulership. God always owned the earth, the universe etc, it is RULERSHIP that He is dealing with. So the `kingdom (rulership) prepared for you from the foundation of the world,` refers to the Lord`s rulership through Israel on earth and eventually in the new earth.

1 Cor.15: 50 refers to the eternal rulership of God in the NHNE.

 

[Marilyn C]

And how does this prove that there is a time gap in Matthew 25:31-46? Obviously, it does not since those verses have nothing to do with Matthew 25:31-46.

Let's be clear here. It's undeniable that the sheep and goats (believers and unbelievers) are gathered before His throne at the same time. That is not up for debate since it says that very explicitly. Agree?
,
So, with that in mind, let's spell out what it is that you actually believe. You believe that the goats are gathered before the throne but then not actually judged until 1,000+ years later. Do you think that this can be taken seriously? It can't. You have unbelievers just standing there before the throne for 1,000+ years before anything happens to them. That is not even reasonable at all.

It is showing that sometimes there is a time gap even in one sentence, (Isa. 61) while in Matt. 25: 46 those ones are TAKEN AWAY (as in the flood, Matt. 24: 39), go to the graves, (as those in the flood did) till eventually go to the GWT.

`Sheep and goats,` are people and are judged by the Lord - one taken and the other left - taken as in the flood to the grave, and one left alive as Noah and his family.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Matt. 25: 31 - 46 is a pictorial representation of what will happen. The actual working out of `separating `sheep and goats` is this -

`But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be......and they did not know until the flood came and took them away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and the other left.` (Matt. 24: 37 - 41)

The ones TAKEN, are taken away as `in the flood,` to the grave, (awaiting the GWT) and the ones LEFT are still on earth alive.

Matthew 25:31-46 is VERY clear that the goats are gathered before Christ's throne when He comes with His angels, not taken to the grave and left there for 1,000+ years before being gathered before the throne as you believe. So, you are taking Matthew 24:37-41 completely out of context and your interpretation of that passage contradicts what is indicated in Matthew 25:31-46 which is that both the sheep and goats are gathered before the throne at the same time.

Some of the goats who are standing before the throne will be the unbelievers who are killed when Christ returns and then they will be resurrected to be judged immediately afterwards (which is the type of scenario we see in Revelation 20:9-15). The rest of the goats will be unbelievers who were already dead before He returns.

They will live out their life and if righteous will go into eternal life. They are given the opportunity to live in the time when the Lord will rule through Israel, (as promised) and learn the ways of the Lord. (Micah 4: 1 - 3)

This is not at all what is depicted in Matthew 25:31-46. When the sheep and goats are gathered before the throne their fate is already sealed. There is no indication otherwise whatsoever. It indicates that they will all be together and then they will be separated into two groups that Jesus called sheep and goats. One group (the sheep) inherit eternal life in the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world and the other group (the goats) are cast into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

 

[Marilyn C]

Matthew 25:31-46 is VERY clear that the goats are gathered before Christ's throne when He comes with His angels, not taken to the grave and left there for 1,000+ years before being gathered before the throne as you believe. So, you are taking Matthew 24:37-41 completely out of context and your interpretation of that passage contradicts what is indicated in Matthew 25:31-46 which is that both the sheep and goats are gathered before the throne at the same time.

Some of the goats who are standing before the throne will be the unbelievers who are killed when Christ returns and then they will be resurrected to be judged immediately afterwards (which is the type of scenario we see in Revelation 20:9-15). The rest of the goats will be unbelievers who were already dead before He returns.

This is not at all what is depicted in Matthew 25:31-46. When the sheep and goats are gathered before the throne their fate is already sealed. There is no indication otherwise whatsoever. It indicates that they will all be together and then they will be separated into two groups that Jesus called sheep and goats. One group (the sheep) inherit eternal life in the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world and the other group (the goats) are cast into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

God`s word does not say that ALL THE GRAVES are opened, just the nations. Jews will be judged at the GWT.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The word `kingdom` means rulership. God always owned the earth, the universe etc, it is RULERSHIP that He is dealing with. So the `kingdom (rulership) prepared for you from the foundation of the world,` refers to the Lord`s rulership through Israel on earth and eventually in the new earth.

1 Cor.15: 50 refers to the eternal rulership of God in the NHNE.

I can't make any sense of what you're saying here. There is no basis for thinking that "the kingdom of God" referenced in 1 Cor 15:50 is any different than "the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world". In each passage (1 Cor 15:50-54 and Matthew 25:31-46) it's talking about the kingdom that believers will inherit at Christ's second coming. Obviously, that is the same kingdom.

 

[Marilyn C]

I can't make any sense of what you're saying here. There is no basis for thinking that "the kingdom of God" referenced in 1 Cor 15:50 is any different than "the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world". In each passage (1 Cor 15:50-54 and Matthew 25:31-46) it's talking about the kingdom that believers will inherit at Christ's second coming. Obviously, that is the same kingdom.

The Lord will rule through Israel at His coming and then in the NHNE He will rule through those he has prepared for the different realms.

You have not addressed that it is ONLY the nations (not Jewish but Gentiles) before the Lord and not also the Jews.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

God`s word does not say that ALL THE GRAVES are opened, just the nations. Jews will be judged at the GWT.

Does every detail need to be spelled out in order for one passage to relate to another? Do they have to each have all the same details in order to be about the same event? No, of course not. So, what you're doing here is known as an argument from silence. Just because that detail is not specified there does not mean that it can't happen at that time.

Jesus taught that all of the dead will be resurrected at the same general hour/time.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

How do you reconcile this passage with your view? If the sheep and goats do not include people who are resurrected from the dead then when do you think what Jesus talked about in John 5:28-29 will happen? It talks about all dead people being resurrected at generally the same hour/time and then either rewarded or condemned. When else will that happen if not when Jesus comes to judge all people at His second coming as depicted in Matthew 25:31-46?

And what did you mean when you said "Jews will be judged at the GWT"? All people will be judged there.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

It is showing that sometimes there is a time gap even in one sentence, (Isa. 61)

Again, that proves absolutely nothing as it relates to Matthew 25:31-46. In that passage it is VERY clear that the sheep and goats are gathered at the same time. How else could they be separated from each other if they are not gathered at the same time? And it's not the case that the goats are sent to the graves. It says they are separated on each side of the throne, so both groups are still by the throne even after being separated. Please address this.

while in Matt. 25: 46 those ones are TAKEN AWAY (as in the flood, Matt. 24: 39), go to the graves, (as those in the flood did) till eventually go to the GWT.

`Sheep and goats,` are people and are judged by the Lord - one taken and the other left - taken as in the flood to the grave, and one left alive as Noah and his family.

This is not indicated whatsoever in Matthew 25:31-46, though. One taken and one left has to do with people who are alive on earth when Jesus comes. One will be killed and one will remain alive. Those who are alive and remain are said to be caught up to meet the Lord in the air when H comes (1 Thess 4:14-17). So, that separation occurs just BEFORE the separation which occurs after all people are gathered before His throne. The context of Matthew 24:37-41 is completely different than the context of Matthew 25:31-46. Matthew 25:31-46 occurs just AFTER Matthew 24:37-41 occurs.

 

[Marilyn C]

Does every detail need to be spelled out in order for one passage to relate to another? Do they have to each have all the same details in order to be about the same event? No, of course not. So, what you're doing here is known as an argument from silence. Just because that detail is not specified there does not mean that it can't happen at that time.

Jesus taught that all of the dead will be resurrected at the same general hour/time.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

How do you reconcile this passage with your view? If the sheep and goats do not include people who are resurrected from the dead then when do you think what Jesus talked about in John 5:28-29 will happen? It talks about all dead people being resurrected at generally the same hour/time and then either rewarded or condemned. When else will that happen if not when Jesus comes to judge all people at His second coming as depicted in Matthew 25:31-46?

And what did you mean when you said "Jews will be judged at the GWT"? All people will be judged there.

The Body of Christ and the OT saints will NOT be judged as the Lord has taken our judgment upon Him on the cross.