The sheep and goat judgment of Matthew 25: The Progressive Dispensationalist view

[Marilyn C]

@Spiritual Jew
@Marilyn C

Once we can identify for certain who that little horn person is - then we can know that the ToD act is not long into the future.

Which means our troubles of this world are about over and our salvation complete with the rapture/resurrection event that has to happen before the ToD act.

I can tell you who that person is already. He is not recognised as such, but I do see this person as the one to come.

 

[Douggg]

I do not see the Day of Christ and the Day of the LORD (judgment, etc) as the same.

The Day of Christ is a good time for persons in heaven. But the Day of Christ is a bad time for persons on earth.

________________________________________________________________________

The Day of Christ is the period when Christians taken in the rapture/resurrection are given rewards in heaven for the things they have done in this body for the cause of Christ.

While here on earth, things turn bad, the AoD setup and soon the great tribulation begins.

________________________________________________________________________

The textual references you provided containing the term "day of Christ" - all look forward to the day of Christ for reward. Phil. 1: 6 - 10. 2: 16. 1 Cor. 1: 7 & 8. 2 Cor. 1: 14)


Here are those verses.....


Phillipians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

7 Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace.

8 For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ.

9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;

10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;

________________________________________________________________________________


Philipians 2:16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

________________________________________________________________________________


1Corinthians1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.


_________________________________________________________________________________

1Corinthians 1:14 As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are ours in the day of the Lord Jesus.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The Day of Christ is a good time for persons in heaven. But the Day of Christ is a bad time for persons on earth.

Speculations, misapplication of Scripture, and private interpretations.

 

[Douggg]

I can tell you who that person is already. He is not recognised as such, but I do see this person as the one to come.

He has to be a Jew and his religion Judaism. I am pretty sure though that you are thinking of a muslim leader in the middle east, right ?

The little horn comes from north and west of Israel - Daniel 8:9.

Daniel 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

 

[TribulationSigns]

@Spiritual Jew
@Marilyn C

Once we can identify for certain who that little horn person is

You never will. There is no such thing as a "little horn person" which is a distorted and lying literal interpretation of premillennialism.

And literally not physically is splitting hairs. My view is that all prophesy is fulfilled literally. Not literally as Historicists and Premillennialists define literal. But as it was literally supposed to symbolize. For example, when John the Baptist went forth preparing the way of the Lord, it was "LITERALLY" the fulfillment of the prophecy of Elijah that was to come before the Lord. Not as Historicists and others define literally, but as God defines it! That's the difference, and that is why I reject the methodology of Historicism, Literalism, Premillennialism, Dispensationalism, and every other ism that doesn't "really" understand that God is the interpreter of His own word. His interpretation is not governed by their strict rules, but by His! And that literal doesn't mean a nation in prophecy will be a historical Middle Eastern nation in Revelation, or that the antichrist nation is Rome, or that the Little Horn must be a man pretending to be king of the Jews. That may be Historicism, but it most certainly is not the true methodology of interpretation of scripture. Your protests not withstanding.

 

[TribulationSigns]

You never will, depsite the fact that premillennialists made tons of false assumption of who that person may be. It is because there is NO SUCH THING as a "little horn person" which is a distorted and lying literal interpretation of premillennialism.

And literally not physically is splitting hairs. My view is that all prophesy is fulfilled literally. Not literally as Historicists and Premillennialists define literal. But as it was literally supposed to symbolize. For example, when John the Baptist went forth preparing the way of the Lord, it was "LITERALLY" the fulfillment of the prophecy of Elijah that was to come before the Lord. Not as Historicists and others define literally, but as God defines it! That's the difference, and that is why I reject the methodology of Historicism, Literalism, Premillennialism, Dispensationalism, and every other ism that doesn't "really" understand that God is the interpreter of His own word. His interpretation is not governed by their strict rules, but by His! And that literal doesn't mean a nation in prophecy will be a historical Middle Eastern nation in Revelation, or that the antichrist nation is Rome, or that the Little Horn must be a man pretending to be king of the Jews. That may be Historicism, but it most certainly is not the true methodology of interpretation of scripture. Your protests not withstanding.

 

[TribulationSigns]

He has to be a Jew and his religion Judaism. I am pretty sure though that you are thinking of a muslim leader in the middle east, right ?

The little horn comes from north and west of Israel - Daniel 8:9.

Daniel 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

No no no...

Based upon what I read in scripture, it is my view that God doesn't mention North and West "in this context" because they are opposites of the South and East, whom the context shows the "little horn" is coming against.

Allow me to explain. The short version is that in scripture, the King of the North is often a synonym for Satan's Kingdom. While the king of the south, being the direct opposite, is often used to signify those working on God's behalf. An opposite or opposing direction from the North. Likewise, the west is the opposite of the east. Thus west and north are not used in this context because Satan is coming against those supposed to be working on God's behalf. An example of the south can be seen as Christ used the queen of the south (Ie. queen of Sheba who came up to the Kingdom of solomon to worship the Lord) as an example of those coming to repentance.

Matthew 12:42

• "The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here."

Or another example, in Daniel when the king of the South is prophesied to be strong and have dominion. Until in the end of years the north and south join forces when the daughter of the king of the south makes an agreement or covenant with the king of the north, signifying a falling away! Just as segments of the Church are today in agreement with the world, and have (for all intents and purposes) joined forces with them. the sad truth is, in most Churches you can't tell the difference between them and the world. Of course, in Daniel, this makes the queen of the south to then become the enemy of God. For example, we are either in agreement with one kingdom or the other. But not both. Spiritual adulterers who have gone after other gods. Much like the harlot in Revelation. Or even as recorded in James.

James 4:4

• "Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God."

Which is what the Christians of the Church today can't seem to get through their thick skulls! An agreement with the king of the north, is automatically betrayal and spiritual adultery. North and South, they are at opposite polls.

Likewise, the East has always represented the coming of light, the dawn of illumination. It is where the sun rises, signifying the risen Christ, and the spiritual rebirth, as it is the dawn of a new day. I.e., the star in the east foretelling Christ. Those from the East represent God's messengers! In that context of the little horn coming against the East, the West would not be in agreement with the context. It is an opposite of the East. And the little horn is coming against the east, which represents the Lord's people. As for example a like-illustration in Revelation 16, the people of the east signifying God's people.

Revelation 16:12

• "And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared."

Here the kings of the East are God's Elect! Not the Chinese army!

Likewise, the pleasant land of Daniel is a synonym for the land of Israel, the shadow which was the historically pleasant home of God's people when they came forth out of Egypt (and WE being brought out of spiritual bondage). Israel "IS" typed all throughout scripture as the pleasant (meaning beautiful) or glorious land. For example, pleasant, a land pleasurable, flowing with milk and honey, beautiful to the eyes, glorious in its appearance. That land Daniel speaks of is the land of God's people.

Ezekiel 20:5-6

• "And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day when I chose Israel, and lifted up mine hand unto the seed of the house of Jacob, and made myself known unto them in the land of Egypt, when I lifted up mine hand unto them, saying, I am the LORD your God;
• In the day that I lifted up mine hand unto them, to bring them forth of the land of Egypt into a land that I had espied for them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands:"

This is a pleasant land. So when the prophesy is of the little horn "waxing exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land," I believe that signifies the power of Satan allowed to come up against the Lord's congregations. But this power will only last for a little season! This is what little horn signifies! Not man! The context also bears this out. As when Satan is loosed in power for this little season, he gathers the world to come up against "the camp of the saints" which corresponds to the little horn. Spiritually, this is toward the south, east and pleasant or beautiful land.

Selah!

@Spiritual Jew

 

[TribulationSigns]

And again (and again) Douggg, horns signify power. Period. I've heard horns symbolize fertility, man, kings, aggression, political nations, the (far) East and the (far) West, and a lot more. It depends upon your "system" of interpretation.

Frankly, it's hard to UN-Learn what you have been taught or have believed for years. If you think national Israel was/is the chosen people, or you've been brought up to try and force everything in the Bible to be physical or literal in its fulfillment while playing with numbers in your charts, then it's tough to break out of that mold. Especially with most of the world having their ears tickled by unfaithful teachers!

You ask how people can continue to think it's all about Israel. Their answer is that scripture says "Israel," and the nation is the only Israel they know...unfortunately! Eyes they have, but cannot see. Ears they have, but they do not hear. They can discern the face of the sky, but they cannot discern the signs of the times.

Yep...

 

[Marilyn C]

The Day of Christ is a good time for persons in heaven. But the Day of Christ is a bad time for persons on earth.

________________________________________________________________________

The Day of Christ is the period when Christians taken in the rapture/resurrection are given rewards in heaven for the things they have done in this body for the cause of Christ.

While here on earth, things turn bad, the AoD setup and soon the great tribulation begins.

________________________________________________________________________

The textual references you provided containing the term "day of Christ" - all look forward to the day of Christ for reward. Phil. 1: 6 - 10. 2: 16. 1 Cor. 1: 7 & 8. 2 Cor. 1: 14)


Here are those verses.....


Phillipians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

7 Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace.

8 For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ.

9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;

10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;

________________________________________________________________________________


Philipians 2:16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

________________________________________________________________________________


1Corinthians1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.


_________________________________________________________________________________

1Corinthians 1:14 As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are ours in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Thank you for posting all those scriptures. And still there is Rom. 8: 34 referring to Christ making intercession for us. That obviously is a time period of Christ. (GK. has `day` as also a time period).

 

[Marilyn C]

And again (and again) Douggg, horns signify power. Period. I've heard horns symbolize fertility, man, kings, aggression, political nations, the (far) East and the (far) West, and a lot more. It depends upon your "system" of interpretation.

Frankly, it's hard to UN-Learn what you have been taught or have believed for years. If you think national Israel was/is the chosen people, or you've been brought up to try and force everything in the Bible to be physical or literal in its fulfillment while playing with numbers in your charts, then it's tough to break out of that mold. Especially with most of the world having their ears tickled by unfaithful teachers!

You ask how people can continue to think it's all about Israel. Their answer is that scripture says "Israel," and the nation is the only Israel they know...unfortunately! Eyes they have, but cannot see. Ears they have, but they do not hear. They can discern the face of the sky, but they cannot discern the signs of the times.

Yep...

Just like us Gentiles, but the Lord will yet reveal Himself to them. His purposes for them will be fulfilled. We, the B/C are not the center of God`s purposes.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

`For Jacob my servant`s sake, and ISRAEL MY ELECT.` (Isa. 45: 4)

What are you intending to say here? Do you have anything at all to say in response to what I said? I showed scripture showing Gentile believers as being included among the elect. Do you have any thoughts on that?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Those in the B/C will be judged, rewarded as to whether we did our works by the Holy Spirit or for self. (1 Cor. 3: 13 - 15) Believers there do not go to hell.

`If anyone`s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a REWARD. `(1 cor. 3: 14)

I don't get the sense that you are reading my posts very carefully at all. I showed how Paul, in Romans 14:10-12, was referencing Isaiah 45:22-24 which indicates that at the time everyone bows down before Christ, "all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed". No believer would ever be "incensed against him", so it's clearly talking about unbelievers there. They will bow before Him and confess that He is Lord at that point, but they will be shamed for being against Him while they were alive. And they will be cast into the lake of fire at that point.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Just like us Gentiles, but the Lord will yet reveal Himself to them. His purposes for them will be fulfilled. We, the B/C are not the center of God`s purpose

Obviously, you cannot see the signs and understand it because of the carnal mind has blinded you on everything thinking everything must be literal and take place in the Middle East, not realizing that the Church is the center of God's purpose! Not national Israel!

 

[TribulationSigns]

What are you intending to say here? Do you have anything at all to say in response to what I said? I showed scripture showing Gentile believers as being included among the elect. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Indeed and Mailyn fail to see that we, Gentile Christians in the New Testament, are defined by God as spiritual Jew, Elect in Christ. We are all one and the same Israel in Christ. Nothing to be said about future salvation for the "nation Israel" which was only an Old Testament representative of God's kingdom.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Sorry I must have missed your `different contexts.` So, you think that all the people of the world will make their way from New Zealand and Iceland etc over to Israel to stand as millions of people in the plains around Israel to be sorted out left and right.

No, that isn't what I think at all. Good grief.

it is a pictorial representation of the `2 men, & 2 women,` one taken and one left, as in the days of Noah, taken in the flood.

No one is taken and no one left in Matthew 25:31-46. The concept of one being taken and one left is in terms of people who are alive when Christ returns. One will be physically killed and one will physically survive. That is NOT the context of Matthew 25:31-46.

Matthew 25:31-46 is not about people either being physically killed or physically surviving. It is about either inheriting eternal life in the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world or being cast into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Being cast into the everlasting fire is not a case of being physically killed. So, can you see the difference in the contexts of Matthew 24:37-41 and Matthew 25:31-46 now?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

@Spiritual Jew

There will be the judgment seat of Christ for what believers have done for the cause of Christ while in this body.

It seems that you also did not read my post about this very carefully.

As I indicated, unbelievers will appear before the judgment seat of Christ as well. As can be clearly seen in Matthew 25:31-46, but can also be seen from understanding the context of what Paul wrote here:

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

When it says every knee shall bow and every tongue confess to God before the judgment seat of Christ is this just talking about believers who will be rewarded? No, absolutely not. It's also talking about unbelievers who will be punished. Paul was referencing this Old Testament passage:

Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 24 Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

Notice that this is talking about when every knee shall bow before him and it says "all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed". So, unbelievers will be there as well, but they will be ashamed because they had not repented and put their faith and trust in Him when they had the chance. Clearly, no believer would be included among those that "are incensed against him", so that means both believers and unbelievers will stand before the judgment seat of Christ. And that is portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46 as well.

 

[Douggg]

@Spiritual Jew

The judgment of unbelievers will be at the Great White Throne judgment after the millennium is over.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

@Spiritual Jew

The judgment of unbelievers will be at the Great White Throne judgment after the millennium is over.

Yes, that's true. But, what you don't understand is that the great white throne and judgment seat of Christ are the same thing. I showed how both believers and unbelievers will be judged when standing before the judgment seat of Christ and gave scriptural evidence to back that up. But, you won't even bother addressing that evidence.

 

[Marilyn C]

What are you intending to say here? Do you have anything at all to say in response to what I said? I showed scripture showing Gentile believers as being included among the elect. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Israel is called God`s elect, and so are the B/C.

 

[Marilyn C]

I don't get the sense that you are reading my posts very carefully at all. I showed how Paul, in Romans 14:10-12, was referencing Isaiah 45:22-24 which indicates that at the time everyone bows down before Christ, "all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed". No believer would ever be "incensed against him", so it's clearly talking about unbelievers there. They will bow before Him and confess that He is Lord at that point, but they will be shamed for being against Him while they were alive. And they will be cast into the lake of fire at that point.

Everyone shall bow and give an account but the B/C will do it at the Bema (reward) seat of Christ, whereas the nations will do it at the GWT.