The Rich Merchants in the True Structuring of the Revelation

[Jerryhuerta]

Revelation 17:9-10KJV
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Sticking with the KJV doesn’t support the seven heads are not the seven kings. The use of appositives is upheld by the KJV.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Revelation 17 - the overview chapter, the big picture across time. Introduces the woman turned harlot, introduces Mystery Babylon the Great, and the mystery of Satan, the 7 heads symbolism revealed, the ten horns symbolism revealed. Information on who will be the beast king of Revelation 13.

The scarlet colored beast - Satan - is not the king 8 beast king of Revelation 17:11. Again there is not an eighth head, only an eighth king, who is the beast king, who Revelation 13:5 rules for 42 months.

King 7 of Revelation 17:10 who must continue a short space, will be killed, and then brought back to life as king 8, the beast king of Revelation 17:11. The short space is the 42 months that king 8, the beast king rules for 42 months.

He will rule the beast kingdom coming out of the sea having a composite makeup. The beast king is the mortally wounded but healed head and only speaks with the mouth of a lion, and is not a composite make up.

The ten horns are on the mortally wounded but healed head, and have their crowns because they will rule with the beast king, the 42 months.






View attachment 332315

All your assertions are made up, private interpretations, and epitomize confusion.

The sea beast is the wounded “head,” according to Revelation 13,

​

And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy... And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast… And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth… and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. (Revelation 13:1, 3, 11, 12)​

The “first beast” is the sea beast, and then the beast from the earth rises, making the first beast the one that “was, and is not” in Chapter 17. The sea beast is one of the five that were fallen in 17:9-11. Revelation 12, 13, and 17 represent a linear narration of the rise of the fourth beast in Daniel 7, the rise of the little horn as the sea beast and fifth king/head/beast, and in Chapter 17, the wounded head during the time of the beast from the earth and the image. After the seventh head/king, the sea beast is revived.

This historicist's interpretation is backed by the scriptures; yours is not.

 

[Douggg]

All your assertions are made up, private interpretations, and epitomize confusion.

The sea beast is the wounded “head,” according to Revelation 13,

The term is not "sea beast". The beast out of the sea has 7 heads. Of which, one has been mortally wounded but healed.

The “first beast” is the sea beast, and then the beast from the earth rises, making the first beast the one that “was, and is not” in Chapter 17. The sea beast is one of the five that were fallen in 17:9-11. Revelation 12, 13, and 17 represent a linear narration of the rise of the fourth beast in Daniel 7, the rise of the little horn as the sea beast and fifth king/head/beast, and in Chapter 17, the wounded head during the time of the beast from the earth and the image. After the seventh head/king, the sea beast is revived.

The text does not say neither "sea beast" , nor "beast out of the sea" as the first beast.

You wrote...

And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy... And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast… And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth… and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. (Revelation 13:1, 3, 11, 12)

It is the mortally wounded but healed head that is the first beast person as compared to the second beast person. The mortally wounded but healed head is the Revelation 17:11 beast king.

Jerry, who is the beast who will get cast alive into the lake of fire in Revelation 19:20?

 

[Jerryhuerta]

The term is not "sea beast". The beast out of the sea has 7 heads. Of which, one has been mortally wounded but healed.


The text does not say neither "sea beast" , nor "beast out of the sea" as the first beast.

You wrote...



It is the mortally wounded but healed head that is the first beast person as compared to the second beast person. The mortally wounded but healed head is the Revelation 17:11 beast king.

Jerry, who is the beast who will get cast alive into the lake of fire in Revelation 19:20?

Let's not be silly; you know what I'm referring to when I say sea beast. And you admit the wounded head is the sea beast, which means, to anyone that can read, it has a "was, and is not" episode. Sound rational interpretation reveals the sea beast and scarlet beasts are the same, only representing different times. Chapter 13 illustrates the sea beast's rise and is renamed the scarlet beast to represent its wounded episode during the sixth and seventh's periods and their reigns.

I'll let you make excuses for that for a while before I return. And thanks for keeping my thread alive.

 

[TribulationSigns]

All your assertions are made up, private interpretations, and epitomize confusion.

The sea beast is the wounded “head,” according to Revelation 13,

​

And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy... And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast… And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth… and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. (Revelation 13:1, 3, 11, 12)​

The “first beast” is the sea beast, and then the beast from the earth rises, making the first beast the one that “was, and is not” in Chapter 17. The sea beast is one of the five that were fallen in 17:9-11. Revelation 12, 13, and 17 represent a linear narration of the rise of the fourth beast in Daniel 7, the rise of the little horn as the sea beast and fifth king/head/beast, and in Chapter 17, the wounded head during the time of the beast from the earth and the image. After the seventh head/king, the sea beast is revived.

This historicist's interpretation is backed by the scriptures; yours is not.

You got yourself really into confusion with your nonsense "different 3 beasts," trying to divide them into a doctrine you are desperately trying to build on.

All beasts are one and the same. Satan is personified as this beast representing his kingdom. The Dragon, which is Satan himself, gives the beast or his kingdom its power (Revelation 13:4). This signifies Satan gives them their strength. That's all!

 

[Douggg]

And you admit the wounded head is the sea beast, which means, to anyone that can read, it has a "was, and is not" episode

No I did not admit the wounded head was the beast coming out of the sea.

The mortal wounded but healed head is the eighth king, the beast king, of Revelation 17:11. The beast coming out of the sea, as a whole, is the kingdom of the beast king.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

King 7 will be mortally wounded, then comes back to life as king 8, the beast king, of Revelation 17:11.

Sound rational interpretation reveals the sea beast and scarlet beasts are the same, only representing different times

The scarlet colored beast in Revelation 17, the overview chapter across the span of time, is Satan.

The beast out of the sea in Revelation 13, with 42 months left in the 7 years, is the kingdom of the beast king.

Chapter 13 illustrates the sea beast's rise and is renamed the scarlet beast to represent its wounded episode during the sixth and seventh's periods and their reigns.

There is no "six and seven periods". Start using the terms in the bible.

Revelation 17, the overview chapter across the span of time - six historic kings -king seven future, end times.
Revelation 12, seven years of the seventh week of Daniel 9:27 - king seven has come to power.
Revelation 13, forty two month left in the seventh week of Daniel 9:27 - king seven has been killed and come back to life as king eight.

 

[Truth7t7]

The scarlet colored beast in Revelation 17, the overview chapter across the span of time, is Satan.

Your claim is "False" the scarlet colored beast is "Jerusalem"

(Jerusalem) Is The harlot, Mystery Babylon The Great.

The Levitical High Priest Dressing represents "The Woman", that is dressed in purple, scarlet, gold, and precious stones as seen below

(Revelation) 17:4KJV
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Yes "The Woman", The Levitical High Priest, Dressed In Purple, Scarlet, Gold, And Precious Stones

(Exodus) 28:15-20KJV
15 And thou shalt make the breastplate of judgment with cunning work; after the work of the ephod thou shalt make it; of gold, of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, and of fine twined linen, shalt thou make it.
16 Foursquare it shall be being doubled; a span shall be the length thereof, and a span shall be the breadth thereof.
17 And thou shalt set in it settings of stones, even four rows of stones: the first row shall be a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this shall be the first row.
18 And the second row shall be an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond.
19 And the third row a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst.
20 And the fourth row a beryl, and an onyx, and a jasper: they shall be set in gold in their inclosings.

(Jerusalem) is the seven Mount city, where the woman sits, not Rome as many falsely claim.

(Revelation) 17:9KJV
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

List of cities claimed to be built on seven hills - Wikipedia
Jerusalem, Israel: Jerusalem's seven hills are Mount Scopus, Mount Olivet and the Mount of Corruption (all three are peaks in a mountain ridge that lies east of the Old City), Mount Ophel, the original Mount Zion, the New Mount Zion and the hill on which the Antonia Fortress was built.

The Roman Empire didnt exist to be guilty of the Prophets blood seen below, Jerusalem did.

(Revelation) 18:24KJV
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

(Matthew) 23:29-37KJV
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Jerusalem (The Woman) that (Great City) as seen below, Jerusalem where Jesus Christ was crucified

(Revelation) 17:18AKJV
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

(Revelation) 11:8AKJV
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Jews/Hebrews cast dust upon their heads, weeping for the (Great City) Jerusalem

(Revelation) 18:19 AKJV
19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

 

[Douggg]

The Roman Empire didnt exist to be guilty of the Prophets blood seen below, Jerusalem did.

The Roman Empire is not Mystery Babylon the Great. Mystery Babylon the Great is the mystical kingdom of him and his angels.

Jerusalem was not around to be responsible for....
kvj
Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

The first person slain was Abel.

(Jerusalem) is the seven Mount city, where the woman sits, not Rome as many falsely claim.

The seven heads and ten horns are associated with Rome. In Daniel 7:23-24, the ten kings and the little horn person come out of the fourth kingdom of Daniel 7:7, the Roman Empire.

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

The little horn person, king 7 of the seven heads, and the ten horn kings will come out the Roman Empire kingdom of the end times -the EU.

The Scarlet colored beast - Satan
Mystery Babylon the Great - the mystical kingdom of Satan and his angels - responsible for all slain upon the earth
The woman turned Harlot - the Vatican. associated with Rome, bishops and cardinals dressed in scarlet and purple.
The beast in the bottomless pit - the garden of eden serpent beast used by Satan
The beast who was, is not, yet is - the end times beast king of Revelation 17:11, Satan empowers him
The seven head kings - Julio-Claudian rulers of the Roman Empire
King 7 who continues a short space - the little horn person, over ten Eu leaders
King 8 the beast king - King 7 after he has been killed and brought back to life, and continues the short space of 42 months
Ten horn kings - ten EU leaders, the EU the fourth kingdom, the Roman Empire of the end times.

 

[Truth7t7]

The Roman Empire is not Mystery Babylon the Great. Mystery Babylon the Great is the mystical kingdom of him and his angels.

Jerusalem was not around to be responsible for....
kvj
Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

The first person slain was Abel.


The seven heads and ten horns are associated with Rome. In Daniel 7:23-24, the ten kings and the little horn person come out of the fourth kingdom of Daniel 7:7, the Roman Empire.

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

The little horn person, king 7 of the seven heads, and the ten horn kings will come out the Roman Empire kingdom of the end times -the EU.

The Scarlet colored beast - Satan
Mystery Babylon the Great - the mystical kingdom of Satan and his angels - responsible for all slain upon the earth
The woman turned Harlot - the Vatican. associated with Rome, bishops and cardinals dressed in scarlet and purple.
The beast in the bottomless pit - the garden of eden serpent beast used by Satan
The beast who was, is not, yet is - the end times beast king of Revelation 17:11, Satan empowers him
The seven head kings - Julio-Claudian rulers of the Roman Empire
King 7 who continues a short space - the little horn person, over ten Eu leaders
King 8 the beast king - King 7 after he has been killed and brought back to life, and continues the short space of 42 months
Ten horn kings - ten EU leaders, the EU the fourth kingdom, the Roman Empire of the end times.

I Disagree With Your Claims, Jerusalem Is The Scarlet Beast Wher The Levitical Preisthood And Temple Reside, Jerusalem Is The Great City

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Jerryhuerta]

You got yourself really into confusion with your nonsense "different 3 beasts," trying to divide them into a doctrine you are desperately trying to build on.

All beasts are one and the same. Satan is personified as this beast representing his kingdom. The Dragon, which is Satan himself, gives the beast or his kingdom its power (Revelation 13:4). This signifies Satan gives them their strength. That's all!

You remind me of the Church Lady, “IS THAT SATAN”? I don't know if you're aware of THAT tad bit of trivia, but I’m an old dude that has his eyes open.

I’ve read for the past forty-five years that most Christianity represents the shallow Laodicean zeitgeist. As I quoted from Noll and Pearcey, the influence of our commercial society, the rich merchants, has dumbed down society, and the Church is not immune. As a matter of fact, a number of Church historians agree that Evangelicalism "has not" been keen on the “renewal of one’s mind.” And that’s why you see only confusion; you see Satan in everything, ignoring that Satan uses KINGDOMS to do his bidding. These kingdoms are written about in prophecy.

Let me recommend the books I’ve cited. Renew your mind, and you’ll agree with what God revealed to me.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

No I did not admit the wounded head was the beast coming out of the sea.

The mortal wounded but healed head is the eighth king, the beast king, of Revelation 17:11. The beast coming out of the sea, as a whole, is the kingdom of the beast king.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

King 7 will be mortally wounded, then comes back to life as king 8, the beast king, of Revelation 17:11.


The scarlet colored beast in Revelation 17, the overview chapter across the span of time, is Satan.

The beast out of the sea in Revelation 13, with 42 months left in the 7 years, is the kingdom of the beast king.


There is no "six and seven periods". Start using the terms in the bible.

Revelation 17, the overview chapter across the span of time - six historic kings -king seven future, end times.
Revelation 12, seven years of the seventh week of Daniel 9:27 - king seven has come to power.
Revelation 13, forty two month left in the seventh week of Daniel 9:27 - king seven has been killed and come back to life as king eight.

As to the beast of the sea, I would have thought the “risen beast” would “be” the one cast into “the burning flame,” in Revelation 19 and Daniel 7:11, following a linear narration. The sea beast fits the rise of the papacy that made kings bow to it and to pagan images as if it were God, fulfilling the little horn/sea beast. The history of the fall of the Roman Empire and the kingdom of the ten horns or kings fits the rise of the papacy like a glove and is confirmed in the linear narration of Revelation 12-22.

As to your juggling of the scriptures in Revelation 12-22, I don’t buy a dispensationalist’s gap in Revelation 12! The prophecy of the scattering of Israel to the “wilderness” was fulfilled at the first advent and illustrated by the woman in the wilderness. There is overwhelming evidence in the Old and New Testaments that Christ came to punish the shepherds and scatter the sheep, which vanquishes futurism and preterism and vindicates historicism. You simply cannot surmount that the papacy rose out of the kingdoms that inherited the West Roman Empire mirroring the prophecy of the Little Horn.

 

[Douggg]

As to your juggling of the scriptures in Revelation 12-22, I don’t buy a dispensationalist’s gap in Revelation 12! The prophecy of the scattering of Israel to the “wilderness” was fulfilled at the first advent and illustrated by the woman in the wilderness. There is overwhelming evidence in the Old and New Testaments that Christ came to punish the shepherds and scatter the sheep, which vanquishes futurism and preterism and vindicates historicism. You simply cannot surmount that the papacy rose out of the kingdoms that inherited the West Roman Empire mirroring the prophecy of the Little Horn.

I am not a dispensationalist. So please stop with that rhetoric.

The woman, Israel, in Revelation 12:6 is in a metaphorical wilderness, as she will be fed the word of God for 1260 days by the two witnesses of Revelation 11:3.

As to the beast of the sea, I would have thought the “risen beast” would “be” the one cast into “the burning flame,” in Revelation 19 and Daniel 7:11, following a linear narration. The sea beast fits the rise of the papacy that made kings bow to it and to pagan images as if it were God, fulfilling the little horn/sea beast. The history of the fall of the Roman Empire and the kingdom of the ten horns or kings fits the rise of the papacy like a glove and is confirmed in the linear narration of Revelation 12-22.

Jerry, go to the thread I created regarding the crowns/no crowns. It will benefit you.

The ten kings in the comparison table are end times, with 42 months left in the 7 years (Revelation 13).

Crowns, no crowns, comparison table

The seven heads are seven kings. The ten horns are ten kings. If you zoom out on your monitor, so all three chapters are shown at the same time, the comparison table is a little more easy to follow. Revelation 17 - timestamp status - first century seven heads - no crowns...

www.christianforums.com

 

[Truth7t7]

As to the beast of the sea, I would have thought the “risen beast” would “be” the one cast into “the burning flame,” in Revelation 19 and Daniel 7:11, following a linear narration. The sea beast fits the rise of the papacy that made kings bow to it and to pagan images as if it were God, fulfilling the little horn/sea beast. The history of the fall of the Roman Empire and the kingdom of the ten horns or kings fits the rise of the papacy like a glove and is confirmed in the linear narration of Revelation 12-22.

As to your juggling of the scriptures in Revelation 12-22, I don’t buy a dispensationalist’s gap in Revelation 12! The prophecy of the scattering of Israel to the “wilderness” was fulfilled at the first advent and illustrated by the woman in the wilderness. There is overwhelming evidence in the Old and New Testaments that Christ came to punish the shepherds and scatter the sheep, which vanquishes futurism and preterism and vindicates historicism. You simply cannot surmount that the papacy rose out of the kingdoms that inherited the West Roman Empire mirroring the prophecy of the Little Horn.

The woman is Jerusalem, and the beast that carries her will be a king/ruler of Jewish/Hebrew decent, reformed preterist historicsm has it wrong, the Roman Papacy plays no part in the woman or the beast of the sea that carries her as claimed

(Jerusalem) Is The harlot, Mystery Babylon The Great.

The Levitical High Priest Dressing represents "The Woman", that is dressed in purple, scarlet, gold, and precious stones as seen below

(Revelation) 17:4KJV
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Yes "The Woman", The Levitical High Priest, Dressed In Purple, Scarlet, Gold, And Precious Stones

(Exodus) 28:15-20KJV
15 And thou shalt make the breastplate of judgment with cunning work; after the work of the ephod thou shalt make it; of gold, of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, and of fine twined linen, shalt thou make it.
16 Foursquare it shall be being doubled; a span shall be the length thereof, and a span shall be the breadth thereof.
17 And thou shalt set in it settings of stones, even four rows of stones: the first row shall be a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this shall be the first row.
18 And the second row shall be an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond.
19 And the third row a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst.
20 And the fourth row a beryl, and an onyx, and a jasper: they shall be set in gold in their inclosings.

(Jerusalem) is the seven Mount city, where the woman sits, not Rome as many falsely claim.

(Revelation) 17:9KJV
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

List of cities claimed to be built on seven hills - Wikipedia
Jerusalem, Israel: Jerusalem's seven hills are Mount Scopus, Mount Olivet and the Mount of Corruption (all three are peaks in a mountain ridge that lies east of the Old City), Mount Ophel, the original Mount Zion, the New Mount Zion and the hill on which the Antonia Fortress was built.

The Roman Empire didnt exist to be guilty of the Prophets blood seen below, Jerusalem did.

(Revelation) 18:24KJV
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

(Matthew) 23:29-37KJV
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Jerusalem (The Woman) that (Great City) as seen below, Jerusalem where Jesus Christ was crucified

(Revelation) 17:18AKJV
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

(Revelation) 11:8AKJV
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Jews/Hebrews cast dust upon their heads, weeping for the (Great City) Jerusalem

(Revelation) 18:19 AKJV
19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

I am not a dispensationalist. So please stop with that rhetoric.

The woman, Israel, in Revelation 12:6 is in a metaphorical wilderness, as she will be fed the word of God for 1260 days by the two witnesses of Revelation 11:3.


Jerry, go to the thread I created regarding the crowns/no crowns. It will benefit you.

The ten kings in the comparison table are end times, with 42 months left in the 7 years (Revelation 13).

Crowns, no crowns, comparison table

The seven heads are seven kings. The ten horns are ten kings. If you zoom out on your monitor, so all three chapters are shown at the same time, the comparison table is a little more easy to follow. Revelation 17 - timestamp status - first century seven heads - no crowns...

www.christianforums.com

Doug, nothing about your futurist interpretation is of any benefit.

And I never said you were a dispensationalist; I said the “gap theory” was a dispensationalist’s doctrine.

I don’t see where you surmounted that the prophecies of the scattering of Israel to the “wilderness” was fulfilled at the first advent and illustrated by the woman in the wilderness. There is overwhelming evidence in the Old and New Testaments that Christ came to punish the shepherds and scatter the sheep, which vanquishes futurism and preterism and vindicates historicism. You simply cannot surmount that the papacy rose out of the kingdoms that inherited the West Roman Empire, mirroring the Little Horn prophecy.

As to the issue of the missing crowns, you continue to pervert the linear narration of chapters 12-19 in the inter-advent age. You’ve conceded chapter 12 is historical, but then try and make 17 precede 12 when no prolepsis is warranted. And in defiance of Daniel 2:34. The historical reality is that the ten toes or ten horns received their crowns when Rome fell. The papacy rose from the sea, representing the wicked/pagan kings of the fallen Western empire (Isaiah 57:20). The historical accounts confirm the papacy legitimized the kings by their acknowledgment the pope stood in the place of God, fulfilling the little horn, which is also the beast from the sea. The papacy gave the ten kings their crowns, three of which refused and were uprooted: the Visigoths, Vandals, and Ostrogoths.

Then from a historicist’s lens, the missing crowns in chapter 17 represent the time when the power of the papacy is broken by the Protestants; the papacy “was, and is not.” The papacy was no longer to legitimize the princes and kings in the West because they were now being legitimized by the Protestants, who enriched the kings and the merchants.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

The woman is Jerusalem, and the beast that carries her will be a king/ruler of Jewish/Hebrew decent, reformed preterist historicsm has it wrong, the Roman Papacy plays no part in the woman or the beast of the sea that carries her as claimed

(Jerusalem) Is The harlot, Mystery Babylon The Great.

The Levitical High Priest Dressing represents "The Woman", that is dressed in purple, scarlet, gold, and precious stones as seen below

(Revelation) 17:4KJV
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Yes "The Woman", The Levitical High Priest, Dressed In Purple, Scarlet, Gold, And Precious Stones

(Exodus) 28:15-20KJV
15 And thou shalt make the breastplate of judgment with cunning work; after the work of the ephod thou shalt make it; of gold, of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, and of fine twined linen, shalt thou make it.
16 Foursquare it shall be being doubled; a span shall be the length thereof, and a span shall be the breadth thereof.
17 And thou shalt set in it settings of stones, even four rows of stones: the first row shall be a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this shall be the first row.
18 And the second row shall be an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond.
19 And the third row a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst.
20 And the fourth row a beryl, and an onyx, and a jasper: they shall be set in gold in their inclosings.

(Jerusalem) is the seven Mount city, where the woman sits, not Rome as many falsely claim.

(Revelation) 17:9KJV
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

List of cities claimed to be built on seven hills - Wikipedia
Jerusalem, Israel: Jerusalem's seven hills are Mount Scopus, Mount Olivet and the Mount of Corruption (all three are peaks in a mountain ridge that lies east of the Old City), Mount Ophel, the original Mount Zion, the New Mount Zion and the hill on which the Antonia Fortress was built.

The Roman Empire didnt exist to be guilty of the Prophets blood seen below, Jerusalem did.

(Revelation) 18:24KJV
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

(Matthew) 23:29-37KJV
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Jerusalem (The Woman) that (Great City) as seen below, Jerusalem where Jesus Christ was crucified

(Revelation) 17:18AKJV
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

(Revelation) 11:8AKJV
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Jews/Hebrews cast dust upon their heads, weeping for the (Great City) Jerusalem

(Revelation) 18:19 AKJV
19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

Whatsyourname, you should read the opening post and the rest of the thread before you waste time with issues already dealt with.

As to Jerusalem fulfilling the great city, Jerusalem did not enrich the merchants of the earth, which is one of the identifying criteria of the great city Babylon.

For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. (Revelation 18:3)​

The Jews in Christ’s time could not be regarded as enriching the earth’s merchants; the Roman Empire had enriched them. And feudalism destroyed the status of the merchants when Rome fell, vindicating that Rome had enriched them.

As to the hills the woman sits upon, Revelation 17 “equates” the seven heads to seven mountains, and Revelation 13:3 affirms one of the mountains is wounded and then revived, and all the world wonders after it, which eviscerates the notion that the mountains are literal. These mountains are symbolic of kingdoms as in the texts: Psalms 2:6; 48:1; Isaiah 66:20; Jeremiah 51:25; and Joel 3:17. It’s puerile to describe a fire on a hill as a deadly wound, or that a literal hill “was, and is not.”

As to the blood of the prophets, Revelation 18:24 is the only text that includes “prophets” without the definite article, which renders it one who receives the gift in this age, not “the prophets” in the OT.

As to the criterion of the “great city,” it’s a joke to maintain ancient Jerusalem reigned over the kings of the earth. It’s just as much a joke the merchants of the earth wept and mourned over ancient Jerusalem when it was destroyed. The prophecy is of modern times, as Protestantism secularized the world and enriched the merchants. If you read the authors I cited, it was Protestantism, the apostate Church, that was conformed to the world again that enriched the merchants.

According to Hebrew 6:4-6, in being conformed to the world, after tasting “the good word of God,” they crucified “to themselves the Son of God afresh,” in fulfillment of the criterion in Revelation 11:8.

 

[Truth7t7]

Doug, nothing about your futurist interpretation is of any benefit.

And I never said you were a dispensationalist; I said the “gap theory” was a dispensationalist’s doctrine.

I don’t see where you surmounted that the prophecies of the scattering of Israel to the “wilderness” was fulfilled at the first advent and illustrated by the woman in the wilderness. There is overwhelming evidence in the Old and New Testaments that Christ came to punish the shepherds and scatter the sheep, which vanquishes futurism and preterism and vindicates historicism. You simply cannot surmount that the papacy rose out of the kingdoms that inherited the West Roman Empire, mirroring the Little Horn prophecy.

As to the issue of the missing crowns, you continue to pervert the linear narration of chapters 12-19 in the inter-advent age. You’ve conceded chapter 12 is historical, but then try and make 17 precede 12 when no prolepsis is warranted. And in defiance of Daniel 2:34. The historical reality is that the ten toes or ten horns received their crowns when Rome fell. The papacy rose from the sea, representing the wicked/pagan kings of the fallen Western empire (Isaiah 57:20). The historical accounts confirm the papacy legitimized the kings by their acknowledgment the pope stood in the place of God, fulfilling the little horn, which is also the beast from the sea. The papacy gave the ten kings their crowns, three of which refused and were uprooted: the Visigoths, Vandals, and Ostrogoths.

Then from a historicist’s lens, the missing crowns in chapter 17 represent the time when the power of the papacy is broken by the Protestants; the papacy “was, and is not.” The papacy was no longer to legitimize the princes and kings in the West because they were now being legitimized by the Protestants, who enriched the kings and the merchants.

Preterism in Historicism is wrong in my opinion, the man of sin, the beast, is a future human man and he will be a king-ruler of Jewish-Hebrew decent

 

[Truth7t7]

Whatsyourname, you should read the opening post and the rest of the thread before you waste time with issues already dealt with.

As to Jerusalem fulfilling the great city, Jerusalem did not enrich the merchants of the earth, which is one of the identifying criteria of the great city Babylon.

For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. (Revelation 18:3)​

The Jews in Christ’s time could not be regarded as enriching the earth’s merchants; the Roman Empire had enriched them. And feudalism destroyed the status of the merchants when Rome fell, vindicating that Rome had enriched them.

As to the hills the woman sits upon, Revelation 17 “equates” the seven heads to seven mountains, and Revelation 13:3 affirms one of the mountains is wounded and then revived, and all the world wonders after it, which eviscerates the notion that the mountains are literal. These mountains are symbolic of kingdoms as in the texts: Psalms 2:6; 48:1; Isaiah 66:20; Jeremiah 51:25; and Joel 3:17. It’s puerile to describe a fire on a hill as a deadly wound, or that a literal hill “was, and is not.”

As to the blood of the prophets, Revelation 18:24 is the only text that includes “prophets” without the definite article, which renders it one who receives the gift in this age, not “the prophets” in the OT.

As to the criterion of the “great city,” it’s a joke to maintain ancient Jerusalem reigned over the kings of the earth. It’s just as much a joke the merchants of the earth wept and mourned over ancient Jerusalem when it was destroyed. The prophecy is of modern times, as Protestantism secularized the world and enriched the merchants. If you read the authors I cited, it was Protestantism, the apostate Church, that was conformed to the world again that enriched the merchants.

According to Hebrew 6:4-6, in being conformed to the world, after tasting “the good word of God,” they crucified “to themselves the Son of God afresh,” in fulfillment of the criterion in Revelation 11:8.

Jerusalem is the harlot, mystery Babylon the great

Ezekiel 16:2-17KJV
2 Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations,
3 And say, Thus saith the Lord God unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan; thy father was an Amorite, and thy mother an Hittite.
4 And as for thy nativity, in the day thou wast born thy navel was not cut, neither wast thou washed in water to supple thee; thou wast not salted at all, nor swaddled at all.
5 None eye pitied thee, to do any of these unto thee, to have compassion upon thee; but thou wast cast out in the open field, to the lothing of thy person, in the day that thou wast born.
6 And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live.
7 I have caused thee to multiply as the bud of the field, and thou hast increased and waxen great, and thou art come to excellent ornaments: thy breasts are fashioned, and thine hair is grown, whereas thou wast naked and bare.
8 Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord God, and thou becamest mine.
9 Then washed I thee with water; yea, I throughly washed away thy blood from thee, and I anointed thee with oil.
10 I clothed thee also with broidered work, and shod thee with badgers' skin, and I girded thee about with fine linen, and I covered thee with silk.
11 I decked thee also with ornaments, and I put bracelets upon thy hands, and a chain on thy neck.
12 And I put a jewel on thy forehead, and earrings in thine ears, and a beautiful crown upon thine head.
13 Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver; and thy raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and thou wast exceeding beautiful, and thou didst prosper into a kingdom.
14 And thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord God.
15 But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.
16 And of thy garments thou didst take, and deckedst thy high places with divers colours, and playedst the harlot thereupon: the like things shall not come, neither shall it be so.
17 Thou hast also taken thy fair jewels of my gold and of my silver, which I had given thee, and madest to thyself images of men, and didst commit whoredom with them,

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Jerusalem is the harlot, mystery Babylon the great

Ezekiel 16:2-17KJV
2 Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations,
3 And say, Thus saith the Lord God unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan; thy father was an Amorite, and thy mother an Hittite.
4 And as for thy nativity, in the day thou wast born thy navel was not cut, neither wast thou washed in water to supple thee; thou wast not salted at all, nor swaddled at all.
5 None eye pitied thee, to do any of these unto thee, to have compassion upon thee; but thou wast cast out in the open field, to the lothing of thy person, in the day that thou wast born.
6 And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live.
7 I have caused thee to multiply as the bud of the field, and thou hast increased and waxen great, and thou art come to excellent ornaments: thy breasts are fashioned, and thine hair is grown, whereas thou wast naked and bare.
8 Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord God, and thou becamest mine.
9 Then washed I thee with water; yea, I throughly washed away thy blood from thee, and I anointed thee with oil.
10 I clothed thee also with broidered work, and shod thee with badgers' skin, and I girded thee about with fine linen, and I covered thee with silk.
11 I decked thee also with ornaments, and I put bracelets upon thy hands, and a chain on thy neck.
12 And I put a jewel on thy forehead, and earrings in thine ears, and a beautiful crown upon thine head.
13 Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver; and thy raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and thou wast exceeding beautiful, and thou didst prosper into a kingdom.
14 And thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord God.
15 But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.
16 And of thy garments thou didst take, and deckedst thy high places with divers colours, and playedst the harlot thereupon: the like things shall not come, neither shall it be so.
17 Thou hast also taken thy fair jewels of my gold and of my silver, which I had given thee, and madest to thyself images of men, and didst commit whoredom with them,

Revelation deals with Christ’s New Covenant mediation of the Church, not the OT Jerusalem in Ezekiel 16.

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. (Hebrews 12:22-24)​

That’s Hebrew’s present, not future tense. How do we know this? Because ancient Jerusalem did not enrich the merchants of the earth, which is one of the identifying criteria of the great city of Babylon.

For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. (Revelation 18:3)​

The Jews in Christ’s time could not be regarded as enriching the earth’s merchants; the Roman Empire had enriched them. And feudalism destroyed the status of the merchants when Rome fell, vindicating that Rome had enriched them.

Your view does not fit all the criteria.

 

[Truth7t7]

Revelation deals with Christ’s New Covenant mediation of the Church, not the OT Jerusalem in Ezekiel 16.

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. (Hebrews 12:22-24)​

That’s Hebrew’s present, not future tense. How do we know this? Because ancient Jerusalem did not enrich the merchants of the earth, which is one of the identifying criteria of the great city of Babylon.

For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. (Revelation 18:3)​

The Jews in Christ’s time could not be regarded as enriching the earth’s merchants; the Roman Empire had enriched them. And feudalism destroyed the status of the merchants when Rome fell, vindicating that Rome had enriched them.

Your view does not fit all the criteria.

Rome didn't exist to be guilty of the Prophets blood, Jerusalem did

Revelation 18:24KJV
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

The scripture identifies a "Future" Jerusalem, not a historical Jerusalem

The entire world will worship this "Future" human man that the woman Jerusalem rides, the entire world will be controlled by this figure

I'm fully aware your reformed pretersist historical denies "Future" events I disagree

Revelation 13:8KJV
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Rome didn't exist to be guilty of the Prophets blood, Jerusalem did

Revelation 18:24KJV
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

The scripture identifies a "Future" Jerusalem, not a historical Jerusalem

The entire world will worship this "Future" human man that the woman Jerusalem rides, the entire world will be controlled by this figure

I'm fully aware your reformed pretersist historical denies "Future" events I disagree

Revelation 13:8KJV
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

As previously stated, you should read the opening post and the rest of the thread before waisting time with issues already dealt with.

I’m not a preterist; I’m a historicist.

Futurists are oblivious that Daniel 2:34 affirms that the little horn rises when the Roman Empire ends, and the ten kings supplant it.

Historically, the ten toes or ten horns received their crowns when Rome fell. The papacy rose from the sea, representing the wicked/pagan kings of the fallen Western empire (Isaiah 57:20). The historical accounts confirm the papacy legitimized the kings by their acknowledgment the pope stood in place of God, fulfilling the little horn, which is also the beast from the sea. The papacy gave the ten kings their crowns, three of which refused and were uprooted: the Visigoths, Vandals, and Ostrogoths.

Then from a historicist’s lens, the missing crowns in chapter 17 represent the time when the power of the papacy is broken by the Protestants; the papacy “was, and is not.” The papacy was no longer to legitimize the princes and kings in the West because they were now being legitimized by the Protestants, who enriched the kings and the merchants.