The Rich Merchants in the True Structuring of the Revelation

[Truth7t7]

God is giving the interpretation of the symbols - heads, mountains - political power.

My Bible states the woman sits on seven mountains, and verse nine ends with a period, it doesn't run into verse 10 as new versions translate with a comma

7 mountains and 7 kings are different interpretations

 

[Marilyn C]

My Bible states the woman sits on seven mountains, and verse nine ends with a period, it doesn't run into verse 10 as new versions translate with a comma

7 mountains and 7 kings are different interpretations

A mountain is symbolic as with the rest of the sentence - woman, heads, mountains. You can`t have the `woman` as symbolic, then make the `mountains` literal.

 

[Marilyn C]

Your response hasn't addressed the facts presented, with a claim that the gentiles have a specific time to rule

The future Beast will be given 42 months, as the entire wicked world will worship him, this will conclude in the second comi g of Jesus in flaming fire (The End)

Not sure what you are asking there.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Concerning the identity of the dragon, you pretty much made my case. Satan used Herod, but Herod was the puppet of Rome, under its authority, so it was Rome that tried to devour the “man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

No, this does not "make your case". Just because Satan's evil desires to disrupt God's plans for a Redeemer from His infancy were echoed by Herod's evil actions as a puppet of Rome does NOT make Satan equal to Rome. These all still remained 3 distinct characters. All this means is that Satan and Herod had a mutual desire to kill the infant Christ, each for their own reasons. And actually, Rome in the person of Pilate wanted to release Christ, and only reluctantly conceded to the screaming crowd of people and the Jewish religious leadership calling for His crucifixion. The martyr Stephen in Acts 7:52 laid the blame for Christ's betrayal and murder on the shoulders of the Jewish people and their leaders - not on Rome. Even Christ Himself told Pilate that those who had delivered Him unto Pilate had "the greater sin".

Herod's puppet role under Rome did not make Herod into Rome itself. Instead, this was the picture of the "CLAY" of Herod and the Israelite people mingled with the "IRON" of the Roman empire in the feet and toes of Daniel's image. The blend of the Roman "iron" and the Israelite "clay" never really worked very well, as evidenced by Israel's inevitable AD 66 Zealot rebellion against Rome. The imagery of Israel's people as the "CLAY" was an old one from back in Isaiah 64:8: "But now, O Lord, You are our Father: WE ARE THE CLAY, and You our potter, And all we are the work of Your hand."

As to the issue of imminence, read Zephaniah,

Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand… (Zephaniah 1:7)
Zephaniah is proclaiming the imminent judgment of Judah at the hands of Babylon. He continues in Chapter 3,

Woe to her that is filthy and polluted, to the oppressing city! (Zephaniah 3:1)
Then “in that day” God relents and restores his people,

In that day shalt thou not be ashamed for all thy doings, wherein thou hast transgressed against me: for then I will take away out of the midst of thee them that rejoice in thy pride, and thou shalt no more be haughty because of my holy mountain… The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid. (Zephaniah 3:11, 13)
Scripture supports the hermeneutic of imminence, which conflates near and far phenomena in prophecy without disclosure of the protracted time in between to promote vigilance and thwart lethargy.

Zephaniah 1:7 and its "at hand" prophecy was predicting the coming judgment of Israel at the hands of the Chaldeans. That first deportation would take place in 587/586 BC in the days of those first reading or hearing that Zephaniah prophecy. This was an imminent "at hand" event for them.

It would only come after their lengthy period of Babylonian exile, when God prophesied the restoration He would perform for them in Zephaniah 3. This restoration does not have the "at hand" timing that the judgment of Zephaniah 1 included. You are trying to blend Israel's captivity and the post-exilic restoration period into the same "at hand" time limit of Zeph. 1:7, and scripture does not do that. Scripture never conflates imminent, NEAR "AT HAND" events with prophecies that are "FAR OFF" in the distant future. God separates these two types of prophetic events into two different things in Jeremiah 23:23. "Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off? God would be in charge of imminent, soon-to-happen "at hand" prophetic events just as surely as He would be in charge of prophetic events that were "far off" in the distant future.

As to the seven kings, the Persian empire was a blend of the previous Chaldean, as the Greek was a blend of the previous two, and the Roman was no different in this respect. How it was different is obvious; Daniel says it was different because of the ten horns (verse 7). Your failure, and neglect of history, to connect the horns with the ten toes are your undoing. As stated to Douggggg, the little horn is a beast/kingdom, revealed in Daniel 7 verses 8, 11, and 23, and represents the sea beast in power and renamed the scarlet beast when it’s wounded, and then cast into the lake of fire in Revelation 19:20. My take on the seven kings surpasses your poor view, because it is simple, if one does not neglect history.

The seven kings are Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, and the fifth, the papacy, illustrated as the sea beast. As to the sixth, the beast from the earth, it is a kingdom that wounds the sea beast, or at least supplants it as a secular world power that changes and makes an image to the first, establishing religion again as the seventh king.

Your interpretation of the Beasts is confused from the start, since you think the Sea Beast of Rev. 13 and the Scarlet Beast of the wilderness of Rev. 17 are the same. They aren't the same. There's too many differences that separate them.

You also apparently equate the individual heads of the Beast kingdoms as being kingdoms themselves. The heads aren't kingdoms. The "7 heads" are either literal mountains that the Rev 13 Sea Beast sits upon, or the " 7 heads" have a double referent as being both literal mountains that the different Rev. 17 Scarlet Beast sits upon, as well as numbering 7 high priest / "kings of the earth". If you have ever studied the first-century history of the high priesthood members of the house of Annas, you would see that those 7 and the 8th members of that high priesthood family of Annas fit the described activity of the "kings" in Revelation 17:8-11 like a glove.

The Sea Beast had 10 crowned horns as Roman emperors that would have exercised an influence over Israel's affairs, beginning with Julius Caesar on down. Those "horns" ruled consecutively over the centuries, one after another.

The Scarlet Beast had 10 uncrowned horns which were 10 generals who were chosen in Jerusalem all at one time in early AD 66 to govern the process of preparing Israel's different districts for the war with Rome. Scripture says these 10 horns only had power "as kings" - not that they ever really were kings at all. And their power was given simultaneously to the kingdom of the Scarlet Beast, and only lasted for a brief "HOUR" in Rev. 17:12. That is as long as it took for the harlot Old Jerusalem to be burned with fire and have her flesh devoured by the 10 generals. These 10 horns / governors had hated the harlot that Jerusalem's religious leadership had become by prostituting itself to the Roman Empire for their financial advancement. This hatred broke out in CIVIL WAR in Jerusalem, with the Zealot leaders killing anyone they suspected of being a Roman sympathizer.

Those 10 uncrowned horns (the 10 governors of Israel's districts from AD 66-70) were the same as the 10 toes on Daniel's image. These were all crushed into dust simultaneously by one blow of the stone kingdom of Christ by the close of AD 70. Since then, the stone kingdom has continued growing and will eventually "fill the whole earth" with its effects.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Interesting, my KJV has a completely different reading compared to your new Bible versions presented

You will note verses 9-10 are separated by a "Period" in the KJV and the new versions a comma

KJV reads "There Are Seven Kings" with the new versions reading "They Are Seven Kings" a completely different reading

Revelation 17:9-10KJV
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary holds,

there are—Translate, "they (the seven heads) are seven kings."​

And so does Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers, Matthew Poole's Commentary, Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible, and Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges, to name a few.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

In Revelation 12, Satan was the one ready to destroy Jesus at the earliest point after he was born - convincing Herod Antipas to have all the first born under the age of two in his jurisdiction killed.

Herod Antipas - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Revelation 12:1-5 verses are historic, in order to identify the woman in the rest of Revelation 12 as Israel. Revelation 12:6-17 is end times, and is the 7 years before Jesus returns.

Revelation 13 is end times and is the 42 months before Jesus returns.
__________________________________________________________

The ten kings in Revelation 13 have crowns. They are not historic kings, but end times kings.

As to the woman in Revelation 12, the Jews in charge tried to kill Christ; they can’t be illustrated as giving “birth” to Christ. The illustration personifies his disciples and the remnant in Romans 11, not the shepherds of Israel in the first century. Mothers nurture their young by nature, not devour them.

whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, sister, and mother. (Matthew 12:50)​

The remnant was the Church, in fulfillment that Christ would come to punish the shepherds and scatter the sheep, and save them in the wilderness (Zechariah 13:7, 10:7-9; Jeremiah 31:1-2, 27-28; Ezekiel 34:2, 9-10, 23-26; Isaiah 49:5-7, Hosea 2:14-23, and Matthew 13:24-30).

The remnant is illustrated as the woman in Revelation 12.

As to the ten kings, it’s appalling that you're oblivious that amongst the Germanic kingdoms that supplanted the Roman empire rose a power that dominated them and caused kings to kneel to it as if it was God. And it “root up also the wheat,” as it burned the saints at the stake. Revelation 17 represents the sea beast's wounded episode, under the reign of the sixth head/king.

Revelation 17:9-11 testifies the scarlet beast predates the sixth king, as the beast “was, and is not,” whereas the sixth “is.” The beast is one of the fallen five.

"Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits, and they are seven kings... (Revelation 17:9,10 NASB, ESV, NET, NIV)​

Again, you still haven’t explained how a future leader of the EU lived before Claudius. Revelation 17:9-10 says the eighth head “was” before the sixth, which you say is Claudius. Again, how does the future head of the EU come before the emperor Claudius of ancient times?

 

[Jerryhuerta]

No, this does not "make your case". Just because Satan's evil desires to disrupt God's plans for a Redeemer from His infancy were echoed by Herod's evil actions as a puppet of Rome does NOT make Satan equal to Rome. These all still remained 3 distinct characters. All this means is that Satan and Herod had a mutual desire to kill the infant Christ, each for their own reasons. And actually, Rome in the person of Pilate wanted to release Christ, and only reluctantly conceded to the screaming crowd of people and the Jewish religious leadership calling for His crucifixion. The martyr Stephen in Acts 7:52 laid the blame for Christ's betrayal and murder on the shoulders of the Jewish people and their leaders - not on Rome. Even Christ Himself told Pilate that those who had delivered Him unto Pilate had "the greater sin".

Herod's puppet role under Rome did not make Herod into Rome itself. Instead, this was the picture of the "CLAY" of Herod and the Israelite people mingled with the "IRON" of the Roman empire in the feet and toes of Daniel's image. The blend of the Roman "iron" and the Israelite "clay" never really worked very well, as evidenced by Israel's inevitable AD 66 Zealot rebellion against Rome. The imagery of Israel's people as the "CLAY" was an old one from back in Isaiah 64:8: "But now, O Lord, You are our Father: WE ARE THE CLAY, and You our potter, And all we are the work of Your hand."

Zephaniah 1:7 and its "at hand" prophecy was predicting the coming judgment of Israel at the hands of the Chaldeans. That first deportation would take place in 587/586 BC in the days of those first reading or hearing that Zephaniah prophecy. This was an imminent "at hand" event for them.

It would only come after their lengthy period of Babylonian exile, when God prophesied the restoration He would perform for them in Zephaniah 3. This restoration does not have the "at hand" timing that the judgment of Zephaniah 1 included. You are trying to blend Israel's captivity and the post-exilic restoration period into the same "at hand" time limit of Zeph. 1:7, and scripture does not do that. Scripture never conflates imminent, NEAR "AT HAND" events with prophecies that are "FAR OFF" in the distant future. God separates these two types of prophetic events into two different things in Jeremiah 23:23. "Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off? God would be in charge of imminent, soon-to-happen "at hand" prophetic events just as surely as He would be in charge of prophetic events that were "far off" in the distant future.

Your interpretation of the Beasts is confused from the start, since you think the Sea Beast of Rev. 13 and the Scarlet Beast of the wilderness of Rev. 17 are the same. They aren't the same. There's too many differences that separate them.

You also apparently equate the individual heads of the Beast kingdoms as being kingdoms themselves. The heads aren't kingdoms. The "7 heads" are either literal mountains that the Rev 13 Sea Beast sits upon, or the " 7 heads" have a double referent as being both literal mountains that the different Rev. 17 Scarlet Beast sits upon, as well as numbering 7 high priest / "kings of the earth". If you have ever studied the first-century history of the high priesthood members of the house of Annas, you would see that those 7 and the 8th members of that high priesthood family of Annas fit the described activity of the "kings" in Revelation 17:8-11 like a glove.

The Sea Beast had 10 crowned horns as Roman emperors that would have exercised an influence over Israel's affairs, beginning with Julius Caesar on down. Those "horns" ruled consecutively over the centuries, one after another.

The Scarlet Beast had 10 uncrowned horns which were 10 generals who were chosen in Jerusalem all at one time in early AD 66 to govern the process of preparing Israel's different districts for the war with Rome. Scripture says these 10 horns only had power "as kings" - not that they ever really were kings at all. And their power was given simultaneously to the kingdom of the Scarlet Beast, and only lasted for a brief "HOUR" in Rev. 17:12. That is as long as it took for the harlot Old Jerusalem to be burned with fire and have her flesh devoured by the 10 generals. These 10 horns / governors had hated the harlot that Jerusalem's religious leadership had become by prostituting itself to the Roman Empire for their financial advancement. This hatred broke out in CIVIL WAR in Jerusalem, with the Zealot leaders killing anyone they suspected of being a Roman sympathizer.

Those 10 uncrowned horns (the 10 governors of Israel's districts from AD 66-70) were the same as the 10 toes on Daniel's image. These were all crushed into dust simultaneously by one blow of the stone kingdom of Christ by the close of AD 70. Since then, the stone kingdom has continued growing and will eventually "fill the whole earth" with its effects.

As to the sea beast and scarlet beast, there are too many connections to dismiss them as having the same identity, only in different episodes. In 13, the beast is rising, and in 17, it is wounded, “was, and is not.”

As to the illustration of the dragon issue, I never said Satan equals Rome. I did say that the dragon illustrates Rome in the narrative of Revelation 12. Granted, the dragon also illustrates Satan in verse 9, but it doesn’t preclude the former. Your response is an evasion of the historical persecution of Christ under the authority of Daniel’s fourth beast Rome, which was how it was fulfilled. Rome is the fourth king in Revelation 17:10, making the fifth the papacy as the little horn. From John’s perspective, the sixth is the beast from the earth, making the image the seventh king.

As to biblical imminence, in Zephaniah 3:11, we read “in that day,” and no passage in Zephaniah distinguishes it from being “at hand.” The whole point of biblical imminence is to quell apathy, the tare that says, “My lord delayeth his coming" (Matthew 24:48). Numerous historical premillennialists in this field also see this near and far feature in prophecy.

As to the ten kings in Revelation 17, they are without crowns (verse 3) and don’t receive their kingdoms or crowns until the hour of the beast in verse 12, which proves they are not the seven kings/heads,

And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. (Revelation 17:12)​

They rule simultaneously after the reign of the sixth king. The ten kings govern consecutively, after the seventh head/king, established in the context of verse 10,

five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. (Revelation 17:10)​

Your interpretation that there is no difference between the seven and ten kings is nonsense. The ten kings in Revelation 17 reign simultaneously, one hour with the beast in our future. The seven heads/kings reign sequentially, the sixth in our time.

Furthermore, Christ or the stone strikes the feet and toes in Daniel 2:34, not the iron legs. The significance is that Christ returns after the Roman empire ends, during the time of the ten toes that never cleave, precisely the situation with the kingdoms that supplanted Rome. Daniel affirms that Christ returns in the time of the ten toes, or ten horns, not during the reign of Daniel’s fourth beast.

You seem to be oblivious that amongst these kingdoms rose a power that dominated them and caused kings to kneel to it as if it was God. And it “root up also the wheat,” as it burned the saints at the stake.

And you also seem oblivious to the history of these kingdoms that received their crowns when Rome fell, and the papacy legitimized them. They are without the crowns in Revelation 17 because the papacy is wounded, "was, and is not."

As to your assertion that the “kings of the earth” illustrate “the high priests of the land of Israel,” it’s blasphemous. The notion Israel’s high priests wear the crown was anathema to first-century Jews; they were supposed to be Levites, not Judeans. Only Christ lawfully holds both the civil and priestly headdress. The joining of the two is the MO of the beasts, including the papacy. And Acts 4:27 doesn’t vindicate your assertion, as it doesn’t preclude the Psalm having an ante-typical fulfillment at Christ’s return in our future, just like the Day of the Lord in Zephaniah.

Furthermore, Christ’s future return, at the time of the ten toes, fills the earth with his kingdom.

But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27)​

​

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Revelation 3:21)​

​

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (Revelation 11:15)​

​

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats. (Matthew 25:31-32)​

Paul testifies that in this age, we are subject to ordained powers, the nations (Romans 13:1-7); we have no authority over them. We are admonished to overcome in this age, which is evidence that we are still in the birth pangs of false Messiahs, “wars and rumors of wars, famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places” (Matthew 24:4-14). Your assertion of “this age” as Christ’s reign in which there are still false Messiahs, “wars and rumors of wars, famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places” is gaslighting, insomuch as the prophecies about Christ’s kingdom end such a state.

 

[Douggg]

As to the ten kings, it’s appalling that you're oblivious that amongst the Germanic kingdoms that supplanted the Roman empire rose a power that dominated them and caused kings to kneel to it as if it was God. And it “root up also the wheat,” as it burned the saints at the stake. Revelation 17 represents the sea beast's wounded episode, under the reign of the sixth head/king.

The ten horns, i.e. the ten kings, in Revelation 17 did not have their crowns at the time of the sixth - "one is" king. The ten kings are not historic kings.

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

The ten horns, i.e. the ten kings, do not have their crowns, until the end times in Revelation 13, with 42 months left in the seven years. The ten kings rule with the beast for one hour.

17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

They will hand the EU over to the beast to be dictator of it.

 

[Douggg]

Revelation 17:9-11 testifies the scarlet beast predates the sixth king, as the beast “was, and is not,” whereas the sixth “is.” The beast is one of the fallen five.

Revelation 17:8 is the mystery about Satan the scarlet colored beast. That mystery goes back to the beast used by Satan in the garden of eden - who at the time of the sixth king, was and is not.

In the end times, that mystery about Satan is that he gives his power to the beast, king 8, who in the end times - was, is not, yet is.

_______________________________________________________________________

What you are not understanding is the short space that king 7 must continue, in Revelation 17:10, is the 42 months in Revelation 13, as the beast, king 8.

Jerry, it is so simple. The ten kings are end times and rule for one hour with the beast, in Revelation 13, when they have their crowns. The continue short space of king 7 is the 42 months in Revelation 13 as the beast, king 8.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

The ten horns, i.e. the ten kings, in Revelation 17 did not have their crowns at the time of the sixth - "one is" king. The ten kings are not historic kings.

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

The ten horns, i.e. the ten kings, do not have their crowns, until the end times in Revelation 13, with 42 months left in the seven years. The ten kings rule with the beast for one hour.

17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

They will hand the EU over to the beast to be dictator of it.

The ten horns, i.e. the ten kings, in Revelation 17 did not have their crowns at the time of the sixth - "one is" king. The ten kings are not historic kings.

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

The ten horns, i.e. the ten kings, do not have their crowns, until the end times in Revelation 13, with 42 months left in the seven years. The ten kings rule with the beast for one hour.

17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

They will hand the EU over to the beast to be dictator of it.

But they had crowns when the sea beast rose (Revelation 13:1). You seem to be oblivious that the Roman empire ended, which is illustrated in Daniel with the end of the iron legs and the commencement of the time of the ten toes that never cleave, precisely the situation with the kingdoms that supplanted Rome.

You seem to be oblivious that amongst these kingdoms rose a power that dominated them and caused kings to kneel to it as if it was God. And it “root up also the wheat,” as it burned the saints at the stake.

And I bet you’re oblivious to the history of these kingdoms that received their crowns when Rome fell.

The neglect and or denial of the history of the Church by futurists and preterists is appalling.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Revelation 17:8 is the mystery about Satan the scarlet colored beast. That mystery goes back to the beast used by Satan in the garden of eden - who at the time of the sixth king, was and is not.

In the end times, that mystery about Satan is that he gives his power to the beast, king 8, who in the end times - was, is not, yet is.

_______________________________________________________________________

What you are not understanding is the short space that king 7 must continue, in Revelation 17:10, is the 42 months in Revelation 13, as the beast, king 8.

Jerry, it is so simple. The ten kings are end times and rule for one hour with the beast, in Revelation 13, when they have their crowns. The continue short space of king 7 is the 42 months in Revelation 13 as the beast, king 8.

What has the serpent in Eden anything to do with the emperor Claudius? How absurd.

Revelation 17:9-11 testifies the scarlet beast predates the sixth king, as the beast “was, and is not,” whereas the sixth “is.” The beast is one of the fallen five. History affirms, Rome ended by the ten toes that never cleave, precisely the situation with the kingdoms that supplanted Rome.

You seem to be oblivious that amongst these kingdoms rose a power that dominated them and caused kings to kneel to it as if it was God. And it “root up also the wheat,” as it burned the saints at the stake.

And I bet you’re oblivious to the history of these kingdoms that received their crowns when Rome fell.

The neglect and or denial of the history of the Church by futurists and preterists is appalling.

Again, you still haven’t explained how a future leader of the EU lived before Claudius. Revelation 17:9-10 says the eighth head “was” before the sixth, which you say is Claudius. Again, how does the future head of the EU come before the emperor Claudius of ancient times?

 

[Truth7t7]

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary holds,

there are—Translate, "they (the seven heads) are seven kings."​

And so does Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers, Matthew Poole's Commentary, Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible, and Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges, to name a few.

My KJV reads clearly, 412 years on the world's pulpits and going strong!

(Verse 9) (The Seven heads Are Seven Mountains) where the woman sitteth with a big "Period" after sitteth, end of the sentence

(Verse 10) starts with a big ("AND" There Are Seven Kings)

Two completely different explanations of (Seven) that are "Mountains" and "Kings"

Read it again and again, simple, clear, easy to understand, no addition or taking away from the KJV translators before your eyes

Revelation 17:9-10KJV
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

 

[Douggg]

But they had crowns when the sea beast rose (Revelation 13:1). You seem to be oblivious that the Roman empire ended, which is illustrated in Daniel with the end of the iron legs and the commencement of the time of the ten toes that never cleave, precisely the situation with the kingdoms that supplanted Rome.

Jerry, the legs of iron, the Roman Empire declined and fundamentally ended around 400 AD. Revelation 13 is end times, not historic, 42 months left in the 7 years.

The end times is not a history lesson. You are living in the end times right now.

Gog/Magog, then the 7 years, ending with Jesus's Return.

Ezekiel 38:8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

Israel and Jerusalem are witness to you. You are living in the end times right now. The time of the feet and toes, the time of the ten kings, the time of the beast, the time of the false prophet, the time of the abomination of desolation, the time of the great tribulation, the time of the rapture/resurrection to escape it all.

 

[3 Resurrections]

As to the sea beast and scarlet beast, there are too many connections to dismiss them as having the same identity, only in different episodes. In 13, the beast is rising, and in 17, it is wounded, “was, and is not.

You have the story wrong here. The Scarlet Beast of Revelation 17 was never said to be "wounded". That "wound" was to only one of the heads of the Revelation 13 Sea Beast - and not even the whole Sea Beast. Heads are referred to as literal mountains in Revelation, are they not? That means a near-fatal "wound" was given to a literal geographical mountain that the Roman Sea Beast was situated upon. I take this to be the disastrous fire at Rome in AD 64 which devastated the Palatine Hill region. Nero immediately launched a very expensive renovation program to create His "Golden House" and fabulous gardens with his bronze "Colossus of Nero" image on the imperial grounds that was about 100' tall. A marvel to all who presumed that mountain was destroyed.

Rome is the fourth king in Revelation 17:10, making the fifth the papacy as the little horn. From John’s perspective, the sixth is the beast from the earth, making the image the seventh king.

Rome is not identified as the Scarlet Beast found in the wilderness. This wilderness setting is a Judean landscape feature, as well as being identified with Israel's wilderness wanderings after leaving Egypt. The harlot sitting on the Scarlet Beast's back was the faithless city of Old Jerusalem who had prostituted itself to the Roman Sea Beast for financial gain, and was guilty of the blood of the prophets and saints and of all slain on the earth from Abel forward, as Christ said.

I'm not denying or evading the Papacy's history of persecution of the saints in more recent history. Neither am I "oblivious" to those tumultuous times for believers. But the Papacy was not that which Christ pronounced guilty of the blood of the prophets and servants that He had sent unto them. That was Old Jerusalem according to Christ. That first-century generation of Jewish religious leadership would completely "fill up the measure of their fathers" with their persecution of Christians. A "filled up" measure of Jewish leadership persecuting the first-century saints and killing them was the cup which the drunken harlot in Revelation 17 was holding aloft. A "filled up" measure has no more that can be poured into it. The Papacy has had sins of its own commission in much later generations than this Revelation 17 Mystery Babylon was dealing with. They are not related.

As to biblical imminence, in Zephaniah 3:11, we read “in that day,” and no passage in Zephaniah distinguishes it from being “at hand.” The whole point of biblical imminence is to quell apathy, the tare that says, “My lord delayeth his coming" (Matthew 24:48). Numerous historical premillennialists in this field also see this near and far feature in prophecy.

When God hands you a detailed description in Ezekiel 12:21-28 of what He means by an "at hand" prophecy, it is best to take heed. God does NOT confuse an "at hand" imminence with times that are far off in the future. The two concepts are polar opposites. You have missed the entire message of the Zephaniah imminent prophecies of approaching judgment and the other prophecies that would take place much later after the Israelite's post-exilic return from their lengthy Babylonian captivity. The "numerous premillennialists" you mention are mistaken in this belief of imminence being the same as something far off.

As to the ten kings in Revelation 17, they are without crowns (verse 3) and don’t receive their kingdoms or crowns until the hour of the beast in verse 12, which proves they are not the seven kings/heads,

The ten kings of Revelation 17 never get any crowns at all. They only receive power "AS kings" simultaneously for that brief "hour" it takes to destroy the harlot - not that they ever really were kings. I never said the ten horns in Revelation 17 were the seven heads / kings of the earth. The ten horns were the 10 generals chosen in Jerusalem at the start of the Zealot rebellion in AD 66. Josephus lists all 10 in Wars 2.20.4, and tells which district they were assigned to govern in order to prepare each of those areas for the war with the soon-coming Roman troops.

The seven heads as "kings of the earth" were the 7 members of the high priesthood family of Annas who served almost continuously from AD 6 until AD 66. Annas and his five sons and son in law Caiaphas all were assigned by Rome to the high priesthood during those years. These 7 were followed by an eighth "king of the earth" - Annas's grandson Mattathias - who as the high priest serving in AD 66 also became the titular head of the Scarlet Beast as the independent kingdom of Israel which had re-emerged to existence once more in AD 66 under the Zealot rebellion.

Your interpretation that there is no difference between the seven and ten kings is nonsense.

I'm not sure where you are getting this idea, since this is not something I ever wrote.

Furthermore, Christ or the stone strikes the feet and toes in Daniel 2:34, not the iron legs. The significance is that Christ returns after the Roman empire ends, during the time of the ten toes that never cleave, precisely the situation with the kingdoms that supplanted Rome. Daniel affirms that Christ returns in the time of the ten toes, or ten horns, not during the reign of Daniel’s fourth beast.

Of course, Christ the stone does strike the feet and toes in Daniel 2:34. But the ENTIRE STATUE was destroyed together at the same time by that one blow to the feet and toes, with all the elements being crushed into dust together and blown away on the winds. This was not just the government structure of those individual empires being spoken about, since we know that those empires fell in ancient times at different times, one after another, from Babylon on down. Instead, this was Satan's entire realm of demonic forces being destroyed at one time who had been working behind the scenes of each of those ancient kingdoms, trying to interfere with God's plans for the nations. Satan and all his devils and unclean spirits were all destroyed by the single blow of Christ the stone back in AD 70. There are none of them in existence any longer in this world since then.

As to your assertion that the “kings of the earth” illustrate “the high priests of the land of Israel,” it’s blasphemous.

It is certainly not "blasphemous" to quote Christ when He refers to the high priests of the land of Israel as "the kings of the earth" in Matthew 17:25. The high priests and their sons were "free" from paying the yearly Temple Tax. That was Christ's point to Peter. High priests wore a golden crown with their high priest vestments. For Christ to become "King of kings" meant that His high priesthood after the order of Melchizedek was superior to any Levitical high priest who had ever served before. And the Psalms 2 "kings of the earth" who stood up and took counsel together to conspire against the Lord and His anointed were the corrupt high priests of Israel - Annas and Caiphas along with their kindred.

Furthermore, Christ’s future return, at the time of the ten toes, fills the earth with his kingdom.

No, Daniel's growth of Christ's stone kingdom is not an instantaneous one. Just like leaven and the mustard seed, that growth of the stone kingdom has been taking time over the past millennia for that "filling the whole earth" to show after Christ struck the feet and destroyed the entire statue back in AD 70.

Your assertion of “this age” as Christ’s reign in which there are still false Messiahs, “wars and rumors of wars, famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places” is gaslighting, insomuch as the prophecies about Christ’s kingdom end such a state.

Christ was going to "Rule thou in the midst of thine enemies", as God decreed for Him to do. That means enemies of Christ can exist even though Christ rules. God is long-suffering with these enemies, giving them the opportunity for repentance. This is evidence of His grace - not of His lack of kingdom power to deal with them. The New Jerusalem in Revelation 22 that we currently reside in still has dogs, sorcerers, whoremongers, murderers, idolaters and liars just outside the open gates of the city (Rev. 22:15).

The whole concept of the "false Messiahs" which Christ said were coming was tied to that first-century generation. Daniel's Messiah was to show up at the AD 30 year for the beginning of His public ministry when the 70th week began. When Israel rejected Jesus as being the fulfillment of Daniel's 70th week Messiah's coming, they went looking for false Messiah substitutes as close to that AD 30 year as possible, to make the substitution believable for the Jews who were looking for the Messiah back then to deliver them from Rome's government over the nation.

 

[Douggg]

What has the serpent in Eden anything to do with the emperor Claudius? How absurd.

7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

The emperor Claudius has nothing to do with the mystery about Satan in Revelation 17:8.

You do not understand the mystery of Satan in Revelation 17:8. The garden of eden beast - used by Satan, Satan called that old serpent because he spoke through the serpent beast to deceive man - the serpent beast is the one who was once alive, but is no loner alive, and in the bottomless pit at the time of the 6th king - Nero.

The end times beast, who the world will witness being alive, then being killed, then coming back to life - and being in wonder about it - will also be used by Satan.

The abomination of desolation statue image will also be Satan speaking through it to deceive men in the end times.

 

[Douggg]

As to the sea beast and scarlet beast, there are too many connections to dismiss them as having the same identity, only in different episodes. In 13, the beast is rising, and in 17, it is wounded, “was, and is not.”

Jerry, I will explain the difference why in Revelation 17 and Revelation 12, Satan is seen as the beast - but not in Revelation 13.

In Revelation 17, Satan presented as the beast - it is the status of the beast's head and horns back in the first century, John's day, when the 6th king was ruling.

In Revelation 12, Satan is again presented as the beast - it is the status of the beast's heads and horns when there are 7 years left in the 70th week.

In both chapters, the spirit of the serpent beast is in the bottomless pit, not yet allowed to ascend out of the bottomless pit.

In Revelation 13, Satan is not presented as the beast - but the kingdom of the beast is as it comes out of the sea. The spirit of the serpent beast will have come out the bottomless pit with 42 months left to possess the beast person.

The status of the heads and horns in Revelation 13 are the horns with crowns, the heads without crowns as king 7 will have been killed, one of the seven heads mortally wounded but healed - king 7 killed and come back to life as king 8 the beast person, who will be possessed by the spirit of the serpent beast.

 

[Truth7t7]

the time of the great tribulation, the time of the rapture/resurrection to escape it all.

No such thing as the pre-trib rapture found in scripture, the Church will be present on earth to be eyewitnesses of the great tribulation and second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

 

[Douggg]

No such thing as the pre-trib rapture found in scripture, the Church will be present on earth to be eyewitnesses of the great tribulation and second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

You started at the wrong verse. Should have been verse 24, the end of the times of the Gentiles. We are in the look up for your redemption draweth nigh zone right now.

We are the parable of the fig tree generation.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

My KJV reads clearly, 412 years on the world's pulpits and going strong!

(Verse 9) (The Seven heads Are Seven Mountains) where the woman sitteth with a big "Period" after sitteth, end of the sentence

(Verse 10) starts with a big ("AND" There Are Seven Kings)

Two completely different explanations of (Seven) that are "Mountains" and "Kings"

Read it again and again, simple, clear, easy to understand, no addition or taking away from the KJV translators before your eyes

Revelation 17:9-10KJV
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

I’m not impressed by such uninformed opinions. When it comes to the truth, those who have mere opinions are in an ill way as compared to those with knowledge.

Gill’s commentary states,

And there are seven kings,.... The Arabic version renders it, "who are seven kings"; and it should be rendered, as it is by the Vulgate Latin, Syriac and Ethiopic versions, "and they are seven kings"​

The Arabic, Vulgate, Syriac, and Ethiopic translations are older than the KJV.

And punctuation is a recent invention that was pretty much unknown in the ancient world and has little to do with the oldest manuscripts of the New and Old Testaments.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Jerry, I will explain the difference why in Revelation 17 and Revelation 12, Satan is seen as the beast - but not in Revelation 13.

In Revelation 17, Satan presented as the beast - it is the status of the beast's head and horns back in the first century, John's day, when the 6th king was ruling.

In Revelation 12, Satan is again presented as the beast - it is the status of the beast's heads and horns when there are 7 years left in the 70th week.

In both chapters, the spirit of the serpent beast is in the bottomless pit, not yet allowed to ascend out of the bottomless pit.

In Revelation 13, Satan is not presented as the beast - but the kingdom of the beast is as it comes out of the sea. The spirit of the serpent beast will have come out the bottomless pit with 42 months left to possess the beast person.

The status of the heads and horns in Revelation 13 are the horns with crowns, the heads without crowns as king 7 will have been killed, one of the seven heads mortally wounded but healed - king 7 killed and come back to life as king 8 the beast person, who will be possessed by the spirit of the serpent beast.

As to living in the end times, it doesn’t preclude the ten toes represent our time and that time commenced with the fall of Rome, and that the little horn rises out of the fourth beast Rome, not some distant future. By your interpretation the Revelation, nay both Testaments, have nothing to say about the time between the two advents. Historicism vindicates that God had lots to say about the inter-advent age.

And historicists are not oblivious that when the iron legs meet the feet and toes, it represents the end of the Roman empire for the time of the ten toes that never cleave, precisely the situation with the kingdoms that supplanted Rome.

And we are not oblivious that amongst these kingdoms rose a power that dominated them and caused kings to kneel to it as if it was God. And it “root up also the wheat,” as it burned the saints at the stake.

And we are not oblivious to the history of these kingdoms that received their crowns when Rome fell.

And we agree that the futurists and preterists have an appalling neglect and or denial of history.

As to your mystery about Satan, you’ve conceded that the eighth king must precede the 6th king. And your solution is that the scarlet beast was the serpent in the garden who preceded Nero. Why change the identity of the beast to another beast? Is the antichrist a literal snake like the one in the garden? The only proper interpretation is to also concede that Daniel defined beasts when used in these prophecies as kingdoms, which you acknowledged at one point but now, for expedience, are backing out.

As to your explanation, you conceded the scarlet beast precedes the sixth king. That means he lived before the sixth but also says he “is not,” which proves he is also wounded at the time of the sixth king. He “was, but is not,” and that is the definition of being “wounded to death” (Revelation 13:3) If he’s wounded again as the seventh, then we have two woundings and two recoveries, which is nonsense and can’t be upheld by the Revelation. You’re making that up.