The Rich Merchants in the True Structuring of the Revelation

[Gregory Thompson]

No idea what you are speaking of here.

It is a result of me misunderstanding what was being written initially, and attempting to understand.

 

[David Kent]

It says the sixth "is" and the eighth "was." Translation, the eighth "was" before the sixth. That's why it takes wisdom to understand.

It says 'the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.'

It is a mystery. The Christian Emperors were, and are not, but they now exist in a different form, the papal emperor who wears a triple crown, signifying his claim to rule over heaven and earth and hell. Some claim for a mere man.

I tried to add Historicist to my profile but I couldn't work out how.

Preterism started by the Jesuit Lacunza and Futurism started by the Jesuit Cardinal Belarmine were both intended to undermine the historicist teaching, which began with the apostles.

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[David Kent]

I ask a question for you futurists.

What role doe you expect from your supposed Antichrist?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I ask a question for you futurists.

What role doe you expect from your supposed Antichrist?

The futurist parallels I've examined indicate that the antichrist comes from the church, and from a family of power.

The form such an antichrist figure would take currently is the church that teaches the opposite of what Jesus taught. Thus "antithesis" of "Christ" antichrist.

In some circles, it is related to the gospel of mammon. In other circles, it relates to the sermon on the mount no longer being relevant scripture for application. Various groups regard "through emphasis" and application passages or entire books removed from the scripture.

Every generation seems to have a new movement which is an exaggeration of the previous generation's implied teachings through emphasis.

So it stands to reason that eventually all of these antithesis of Christ's teachings would eventually amalgamate in a completely absurd exaggeration making all teaching of Jesus null and void, yet a Jesus will still be preached. This fruit of exaggeration Jesus will be the antichrist, an imaginary entity used to call down cruise missiles on nations believing something else.

So in line with the Old Testament Prophets where a nation can be spoken of as a person (virgin daughter of .. country name) - The antichrist will most likely manifest as a movement people, not one person in particular.

 

[Douggg]

Douglas, in prophecy days, are often used to represent years, and unlike 7t7, you know that. It’s historically confirmed the papacy legitimized the kings that received their crowns after the fall of Rome by their acknowledgment the pope stood in place of God for one thousand two hundred and sixty years, fulfilling the little horn, which is also the beast from the sea. You can close your eyes and your ears all you want. Still, it doesn’t dismiss the scriptural and historical evidence that Historicism has the proper hermeneutics to interpret Revelation and prophecy in general. You’re simply not going to surmount that the horns or toes received their crowns when Rome fell, which destroys your futurist's misrepresentations.

Jerry, those ten kings are alive at the time Jesus returns.... because in the days of the ten toes in Daniel 2, God will setup on earth the everylasting kingdom of God.

The little horn in Daniel 8:25 he stands up against Jesus, but gets broken not by human means. The popes across the span of 1260 years (in your view) did not stand up against Jesus to make war on Jesus. Every single one of the popes depended their salvation on Jesus dying on the cross in their behalf. The popes had other issues for sure that were not in keeping with Christian values, but gathering the armies of the world to make war on Jesus was not one of them.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

 

[Douggg]

I ask a question for you futurists.

What role doe you expect from your supposed Antichrist?

Good question, David, and I hope you get a lot of responses.

The role of the person being the Antichrist will be to act as the perceived King of Israel messiah - from the time he is first anointed the King of Israel until the day he commits the 2Thessalonains2;4 act, revealing himself as the man of sin.

He will be in that role for about 3 years. We don't know the day when he will commit the 2Thessalonians2:4 act - so we have to guesstimate.

 

[Douggg]

You start halfway through Roman history. If you start at the time when Rome succeeded the Greeks you should start from Augustus .

I start with the sixth king ruling at the time John received Revelation - and traced back through five fallen kings up to that time. Augustus was the first to call the time of emperor. But the prophecy doesn't mention the title of emperor.

1. Julius Caesar
2. Augustus
3. Tiberius
4. Caligula
5. Claudius
Sixth - Nero last of the Julio-Claudian historic bloodline.

 

[Douggg]

The futurist parallels I've examined indicate that the antichrist comes from the church, and from a family of power.

Persons holding that view basically are taking from the reformers view that the pope/papacy is the Antichrist.

The problem with that view is the pope is not qualified, nor anyone coming out of the church. Because the function of Christ is to be promised the King of Israel, descended from David, to reign and rule during the messianic age. Which to be the King of Israel a person must be a Jew.

Few in Christianity know of that function of Christ. Christ the King of Israel, who came in the name of the Lord. (Anti) Christ the King of Israel coming in his own name.

Mark 15:
31 Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.

32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Persons holding that view basically are taking from the reformers view that the pope/papacy is the Antichrist.

With such generalizations, it must be difficult to interpret the bible clearly. It is also obvious, you did not read my whole post.

This particular view looks at protestantism, and all its chaos, as the body the antichrist rises through.

I did say it's not a particular person, so "the pope is the antichrist" is not a good fit for my understanding of an "if Futurism" view.

 

[Douggg]

With such generalizations, it must be difficult to interpret the bible clearly. It is also obvious, you did not read my whole post.

This particular view looks at protestantism, and all its chaos, as the body the antichrist rises through.

I did say it's not a particular person, so "the pope is the antichrist" is not a good fit for my understanding of an "if Futurism" view.

I don't think the view of the Antichrist emerging out of the church is common for futurists.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I don't think the view of the Antichrist emerging out of the church is common for futurists.

It is also not common for prophecies to target the church, even when it is causing God's name to be blasphemed among those who don't believe.

The parallels are based on possible interpretations from the scripture that use a consistent interpretation method. They are not based on a census of what is a common interpretation.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

I am a historicist. But Revelation 17: 11 says the 8th is of the 7, not the 5.

Grammatically, the eighth is “of the seven,” which includes the five. It doesn’t say the king “is” the revived “seventh,” as Douggg and futurists attempt in their misrepresentation. The preface that it takes wisdom vindicates that most won’t get it, which is apparent with all the winds of doctrine.

Again, Revelation 17:9-11 states the scarlet beast is also the eighth king, and it “was” before the sixth; that makes him one of the fallen five.

The Historicist’s lens holds the little horn and the eighth king as the papacy, the fifth kingdom following Daniel’s fourth kingdom. In your view, how is it that the papacy “was” before Nero, and if you are a historicist?

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Jerry, those ten kings are alive at the time Jesus returns.... because in the days of the ten toes in Daniel 2, God will setup on earth the everylasting kingdom of God.

The little horn in Daniel 8:25 he stands up against Jesus, but gets broken not by human means. The popes across the span of 1260 years (in your view) did not stand up against Jesus to make war on Jesus. Every single one of the popes depended their salvation on Jesus dying on the cross in their behalf. The popes had other issues for sure that were not in keeping with Christian values, but gathering the armies of the world to make war on Jesus was not one of them.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Douglas, the popes blaspheme, with is one of the criteria of the little horn, which is undeniable. Furthermore, Revelation 13 affirms that the “first beast,” the previous one, rises from the sea and receives the deadly wound.

And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. (Revelation 13:11-12)​

You’re avoiding the evidence of the episode of the sea beast’s wounding is continued in chapter 17 with its “was, and is not” account. The Protestants wounded the papacy when they secularized society, which enriched the merchants, making apostate Protestantism the harlot Babylon.

Yet, historians are now saying that we are headed toward a post-secular era in which the separation of church and state will be eroded, which will return the power of the papacy, which vindicates Historicism and quashes your limited understanding of history and your assertion the papacy did not stand against Christ. The popes did stand against Christ by blaspheming God and trying to stand in the place of Christ and will war against him upon his return. There is overwhelming historical evidence that substantiates historicism and destroys futurism as well as preterism.

 

[Douggg]

You’re avoiding the evidence of the episode of the sea beast’s wounding is continued in chapter 17 with its “was, and is not” account. The Protestants wounded the papacy when they secularized society, which enriched the merchants, making apostate Protestantism the harlot Babylon.

In Revelation 13, it is one of the heads that is mortally wounded but healed. The 7 heads are 7 kings. Since in Revelation 17:10, the future king seven must continue a short space - it will be king seven who will be mortally wounded but healed, i.e. comes back to life. And rules as the beast king for 42 months.

king 7 is not an office - i.e. the papacy - but an individual king.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

In Revelation 13, it is one of the heads that is mortally wounded but healed. The 7 heads are 7 kings. Since in Revelation 17:10, the future king seven must continue a short space - it will be king seven who will be mortally wounded but healed, i.e. comes back to life. And rules as the beast king for 42 months.

king 7 is not an office - i.e. the papacy - but an individual king.

You do remember when you argued against the heads being renamed kings, don’t you, Douglas? Glad to see you are making progress.

Again, Revelation 17:9-11 states the scarlet beast is also the eighth king, and it “was” before the sixth; that makes him one of the fallen five. The fifth king, Daniel’s little horn or John’s sea beast, is revived, not the seventh; it takes wisdom to see that. The Historicist’s lens holds the little horn and the eighth king as the papacy, the fifth kingdom following Daniel’s fourth kingdom.

How is it that a mortal man as the antichrist “was” before a first-century Roman emperor in your view as a futurist?

 

[Douggg]

Again, Revelation 17:9-11 states the scarlet beast is also the eighth king, and it “was” before the sixth; that makes him one of the fallen five

The scarlet colored beast is Satan.

Satan is not any of the seven kings, nor king eight.
.
King eight is the beast king, formerly one of the seven (forthcoming king seven to be exact). He and the false prophet when Jesus returns get cast alive into the lake of fire.

Differently, Satan will be bound and cast into the bottomless pit.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

The scarlet colored beast is Satan.

Satan is not any of the seven kings, nor king eight.
.
King eight is the beast king, formerly one of the seven (forthcoming king seven to be exact). He and the false prophet when Jesus returns get cast alive into the lake of fire.

Differently, Satan will be bound and cast into the bottomless pit.

The angel having the last plagues shows John the harlot seated upon the scarlet beast.

And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials… So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns (Revelation 17:1, 3)​

Then in verses 7 and 8, the angel continues describing the scarlet beast the woman sits upon.

And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. (Revelation 17:7-8)​

Your error on the beast is just as myopic as your failure to discern that the seven heads are renamed seven kings initially.

The scarlet beast is the same as the eighth king in verse 11, affirmed by the detail that it “was, and is not,” too. The beast is cast into the burning flame in Chapter 19 and is with the false prophet when Satan is also cast there, too, in 20:10.

The scarlet beast IS NOT Satan.

And lastly, John is taken to the future, our time, to witness the judgment of the harlot Babylon, insomuch as the angle with the seven last plagues shows him these things.

Again, how is it that a future mortal man as the antichrist “was” before a first-century Roman emperor in your view as a futurist?

 

[Timtofly]

I ask a question for you futurists.

What role doe you expect from your supposed Antichrist?

Nothing but a beast, not even human.

 

[David Kent]

Nothing but a beast, not even human.

The Man of Sin. Human.

 

[Douggg]

You do remember when you argued against the heads being renamed kings, don’t you, Douglas? Glad to see you are making progress.

You misrepresent me. I argued against the kings in Revelation 17:10 as being renamed as "kingdoms". They are kings not kingdoms.

Your error on the beast is just as myopic as your failure to discern that the seven heads are renamed seven kings initially.

The seven heads are not "renamed" kings. The seven heads "represent" seven kings. Just like the ten horns are not "renamed" kings. The ten horns "represent" ten kings.

The scarlet beast is the same as the eighth king in verse 11, affirmed by the detail that it “was, and is not,” too. The beast is cast into the burning flame in Chapter 19 and is with the false prophet when Satan is also cast there, too, in 20:10.

The eighth king, the beast king of the end times, is of the seven other kings. It is the eighth king, the beast king that will be cast into the lake of fire at Jesus's return.

Differently, at Jesus's return, Satan is cast into the bottomless pit for a thousand years. It is therefore - impossible for Satan to be the eighth king.

Jesus's return
The beast-king and the false prophet - into the lake of fire
Satan - into the bottomless pit prison

1000 years later
Satan released from the bottomless pit prison - and he deceives the nations into one last rebellion. Which God puts down.
Satan then is cast into the lake of fire - where the beast-king and the false prophet are, and will have been for a thousand years..

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.