The Rapture - heretical teaching

[shturt678s]

Like everyone else in eternity.

Not at IThess.4:16, 17, ie, giving you a head's up - have your corner man throw in the towel on this one

Old Jack, going to buy some popcorn, and soda to watch this one play out

 

[spiritandtruth2]

Like everyone else in eternity.

Can you tell me are they in Heaven or on the Earth will they grow old will there be overcrowding.

By the way I think you should be a Politician like them you never answer the question that has been asked, you skirt round it.

You definitely to have the three H's

 

[ebedmelech]

Not at IThess.4:16, 17, ie, giving you a head's up - have your corner man throw in the towel on this one

Old Jack, going to buy some popcorn, and soda to watch this one play out

No Jack it's pretty clear at 1 Thessalonians 4:17, the last "conjunctive" statement:
and so we shall always be with the Lord.

The subject of 1 Corinthians 15:12-57 is resurrection. Within that, we know the end comes from after resurrection from 1 Corinthians 15:20-26:
20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,
24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

The consistency of of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17...would be 1 Corinthians 15:50-57:
50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?”
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;
57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

No need for the "heads up" Jack. I did this " ‘Order on order, order on order, Line on line, line on line, A little here, a little there.’” "...

 

[ebedmelech]

Can you tell me are they in Heaven or on the Earth will they grow old will there be overcrowding.

By the way I think you should be a Politician like them you never answer the question that has been asked, you skirt round it.

You definitely to have the three H's

It *seems* to me that on this subject you're a bit uninformed spiritandtruth2. How can they get old in an eternal body?

So take a look at my post above this one. I'm not a politician. I'm engaged in the scripture to determine the truth.

You have not posted one thing to make your case! I answered you directly. Obviously you don't or cannot understand my answers in post #110.

 

[Biblewriter]

So are there people who are alive at the time going to heaven or have you to be dead or die?

Does this mean millions of people?

It means everyone who has truly trusted in the Lord Jesus Christ. All those who are real Christians, as opposed to mere professing Christians.

I suppose, but I do not know, that this will amount to millions of people.

 

[Biblewriter]

Can you tell me are they in Heaven or on the Earth will they grow old will there be overcrowding.

By the way I think you should be a Politician like them you never answer the question that has been asked, you skirt round it.

You definitely to have the three H's

Here we come to one of the scriptural differences that distinctly prove that there are two different peoples of God.

Jesus plainly said in John 13:3 that He would go to his "Father's house" to prepare a place for us, and that He would come again, and receive us to himself. This is plainly a matter of taking us to heaven. Then again we read in Revelation that he will keep us out of the "hour of temptation," that is coming upon the whole world. If there is an "hour of temptation" coming upon "the whole world," the only to keep us out of it is to take us out of the world. This again implies going to heaven. ANd yet again, when He comes to judge the world, He will come with tens of thousands of his saints." He cannot come from heaven with us unless we are there before He comes.

So here we see three scriptures that indicate we will be taken to heaven.

But other scriptures clearly speak of the people of God being blessed in this earth. One of them is:

3 "Thus says the LORD: 'I will return to Zion, And dwell in the midst of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be called the City of Truth, The Mountain of the LORD of hosts, The Holy Mountain.'
4 "Thus says the LORD of hosts: 'Old men and old women shall again sit In the streets of Jerusalem, Each one with his staff in his hand Because of great age.
5 The streets of the city Shall be full of boys and girls Playing in its streets.'
6 "Thus says the LORD of hosts: 'If it is marvelous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, Will it also be marvelous in My eyes?' Says the LORD of hosts.
7 "Thus says the LORD of hosts: 'Behold, I will save My people from the land of the east And from the land of the west;
8 I will bring them back, And they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem. They shall be My people And I will be their God, In truth and righteousness.'
Zechariah 8:3-8

Another is:


19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem, And joy in My people; The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her, Nor the voice of crying.
20 "No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; For the child shall die one hundred years old, But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 They shall build houses and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 They shall not build and another inhabit; They shall not plant and another eat; For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people, And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Isaiah 65:19-22

These are very plainly n this earth. So we have a people of God blessed in heaven, and a people of God blessed in the earth. These cannot be the same group of people.

 

[Biblewriter]

This is simply NOT TRUTH. It IS true as far as one becoming born again. God is no respecter of persons and ANYONE coming to Him with faith to be born again can be and will be. But we cannot compare apples with turnips. When it comes to the rapture, Jesus will come for those with FULL oil lamps. (Matt. 25) He will come for those WATCHING for His coming. He will come for those EXPECTING His coming. He will come for those who have FAITH in His coming. We can get NOTHING from heaven because of need or because or want. We must have FAITH to get anything from God. And the rapture will not be an exception.

But don't take it from me, take it from Jesus Himself:


Dear Children
This is your LORD. I AM coming and NO one can stop ME. Some believe I will not ever come. Some believe I am not coming for a long time. Some think of ME as a far off GOD. I am none of these. I am coming with MY mighty angel army. I am going to split the skies open with the beauty of MY Majesty and MY Presence. Those watching will see ME first. They will see their KING make a grand entrance.
The stage will be set for the removal of MY bride to lift her up into the skies out of harm’s way. She will follow ME out to safety. I will pull her free. There will be mass hysteria. People will run everywhere wondering what has happened because of the devastation and missing people. There will be many explanations for what has taken place. Most will be inspired by evil, who want to down play MY Coming.
The world will not be the same. It will be the start of a new era—the onset of the antichrist kingdom in full force: man’s way of coping with the aftermath of the removal of MY bride from the earth. Once MY bride is taken free and MY SPIRIT is taken out of the way, the enemy’s kingdom will come into power in full force and no one will be safe from the domination of evil man run by evil spirits from the kingdom of darkness.
Horror will reign on earth as I allow MY wrath to pour over the earth. Tribulation will reign supreme—Great Tribulation. MY children who are left behind will face their darkest hour. Dark decisions will be theirs to make choosing between the antichrist system which leads ultimately to eternal doom or choosing against the commanding system leading to their martyrdom. Many will be tortured and suffer greatly in order to escape the kingdom of darkness that will rule the earth and all who remain behind.
You can avoid this end—turn to ME now as your only hope. Give ME your all in all—full surrender of your will into MY Hands. I will protect you, guide you, keep you in MY Will if you so desire to be MINE. Just surrender, repent, and submit yourself over to ME. All will be well between us. I will protect you from the coming evil: a system that is even now in the works.
Please turn your life over to ME. I am pleading with you children. Walk with your GOD into safekeeping.
I AM GOD…I AM ALL KNOWING…ALL SEEING…ALPHA & OMEGA…
BEGINNING and the END

(Prophecy dictated to Susan Davis: emphasis added)

This prophecy is in total agreement with the written Word of God.

LAMAD

18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
Revelation 22:18


5 Every word of God is pure; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
6 Do not add to His words, Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.
Proverbs 30:5-6

 

[com7fy8]

You need to understand what we are saying a little better before you attack what we say. I can honestly say that in my fifty plus years f invlovement, I have never heard even one recognized leader in the entire pre-trib movement express even one of the attitudes you speak of here.

Hi, Bible Writer > not all pre-tribbers say the same thing, as their reasons for their pre-trib belief. I am attacking only what I have found to be wrong reasons. And I said to make sure you have scriptural reasons. And I know that not all pre-tribbers say the things or feel the things that I find not to be scriptural. Or, ones have not thought about things I brought up. They have just been told Jesus comes before the trib and they have not checked with scripture. Others have studied it thoroughly and interpret differently than I do.

There are pre-trib ideas that I did not deal with, never mind attack. I am only talking about things I have discovered that I do not find to be scriptural.

There actually are ones who think Christ's Bride would be dirtied if we were in the trib. But the Bible clearly says the "beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit" is "incorruptible", in 1 Peter 3:4. So, no tribulation can dirty us if we are in love's "incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God." (in 1 Peter 3:4) But I am not saying any or all pre-trib people are into this sort of a thing. So . . . again . . . I am attacking only what I have heard that I find not to be scriptural or of God's love.

I have not said that all pre-tribbers say the things that I find to be wrong. Just make sure what you hold to is scriptural, that's all

And I (in less than fifty years) have encountered people who want pre-trib because they fear going through the trib. Fear is not a reason to believe in something. And Paul has clearly said, "Through many tribulations we must enter into the kingdom of God." (in Acts 14:22) So, fear of tribulation should not decide what our beliefs are, I would say.

But a number of pre-tribbers I have known have brushed off the idea of offering to volunteer to Jesus, that they would be honored to stay here to help minister to the newborns who will become Christians during the trib. There are pre-tribbers who speak more of how they want to be raptured, than about how they desire to help our newborn brothers and sisters who will become saved during the great tribulation. Won't our newborn brothers and sisters of the trib need our mature and seasoned and trained pastors, at least as much as we do?

Paul himself did say he would love to go to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:23) > but he also said, "Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you." (Philippians 1:24) So, Paul was willing to stay here on earth and go through all the tribulation he did, in order to be here for us.

And he says, "Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ." (1 Corinthians 11:1)

But I know there are pre-tribbers who want to leave this earth and not be here to help the Christians who will serve in the great tribulation. Ones actually claim they will be having the wedding feast, during the great tribulation . . . right while brothers and sisters here are being beheaded, still, for Jesus.

So, I am not talking about anyone who has scriptural reasons. These which I have offered are only what I consider to be the unscriptural reasons, with very anti-love attitudes, even, involved. And I have known people who have shown and presented this kind of stuff.

One thing that needs consideration is the pre-trib idea that Jesus will keep us from the hour of temptation if we overcome with Him. They understand this means He will remove us before the trib so we don't go through that time of temptation.

Of course, I can see that Jesus means that spiritually He will keep us, no matter what is going on around us.

But that "argument", I would say, is more thoughtful.

But I have read no scripture plainly teaching that Jesus comes before.

But Paul says it will be "at the last trumpet" > in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52. And during the time "immediately after the tribulation of those days" (Matthew 24:29), Jesus says, there will be "a great sound of a trumpet" (Matthew 24:31). A pre-trib trumpet and resurrection would not be the last trumpet that Jesus Himself mentions.

And Paul says "the dead in Christ will rise first", in 1 Thessalonians 4:16. If people are raptured before the beheaded saints of the trib., then they would be rising before the dead in Christ of the great tribulation. I don't get how people who have not even been through much can think they will be raptured and even having the wedding feast before the tribulation martyrs have risen. Now, maybe you do not believe this, but I know we have pre-tribbers who claim the wedding feast will be right after a pre-trib rapture, and right during the great tribulation when Christians will be getting beheaded for Jesus.

 

[com7fy8]

[quote=com7fy8;64816649]
I wanted to comment on the third point you made because there is more to it then what you have said
The promise that we are not appointed to God's wrath but unto salvation thru Jesus Christ is not a weak argument. When God's wrath was poured out on Jesus He said It Is Finished. so what is the purpose of God's wrath being poured out a second time on the very one's that Jesus already suffered and died for. Are you saying that what Jesus suffered for was not enough so a we must suffer God's wrath again. That is what you are saying if the church isn't raptured.
Lets talk about the "newborns" as you call them I favor Post Rapture saints. why will they suffer wrath. One possibility is they failed to believe and rejected Jesus before the rapture. But you cannot overlook the fact that it is Jesus the opens the seals and all the seals are divine judgements. When God judged Israel, the believers at that time also suffered from the judgement. When God judged Israel with the Babylonian captivity, believers like Ezekiel and Daniel and his 3 friends also suffered captivity. But don't ignore the obvious here God's wrath is not directed at the post rapture saints but only against the persecutors who are killing them because of there faith in Jesus.
Like I said in #56 no earth dweller can avoid God's wrath during the Tribulation period. Removal from earth is the only way. A simpe look at Revelation will show that saints are killed on a massive scale, I fail to see how this is being kept safe.

I made it clear that I understand that God's wrath judgments during the trib will not effect us who are obeying Him. Revelation chapter seven can help us to see that ones who serve God during the trib will be "sealed" so the wrath judgments do not effect them. And in another part of what I wrote I offered how our Father does have self-control.

So, the suffering of saints in the trib will be because of enduring persecution . . . not because of the wrath judgments.

Therefore, in answer to your question, all Jesus did on the cross is enough. It is finished.

 

[iamlamad]

IThess.4:16, "...and the dead in Christ shall arise first" "in Christ" expounds what happens to the Saints, however per Jn.5:28, 29 "all" that are in their graves (bodies glorified) shall hear His voice and come forth, ie, the good and the bad - this is 'who' loosely speaking, due to only the bodies of all the living souls from Adam forward to the last one. Here the union of the dead, and the living believers form one joint host that is lifted in a divine raptus to meet their heavenly Lord a He descends.

They will meet the Lord in welcome, and will descend to the earth with Him, and all His angels for the purpose of judgment, ie, keeping in mind those believers that already passed on were secretly, and forensically judged at the time of their passing where most today usurp this judgment, and have most going to heaven to keep church economics going and church on Sunday for 1.5 hours gives them their ticket. Sorry for run on sentences.

Old Jack

Jack, in your scenario, John 14 would read like this:

2 In my Father's house [in heaven] are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to [heaven to] prepare a place for you [in heaven].

3 And if I go [to heaven] and prepare a place for you [in heaven], I will come again [to the air], and receive you unto myself [in the air]; that where I am [going, on the earth], there [on the earth] ye may be also.

Is this really the intent of the author here? How silly it would be for Jesus to go to heaven to prepare places (abodes, mansions) for us, and then forget them and come to earth.

No, the intent of the author is this:

2 In my Father's house [in heaven] are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to [heaven to] prepare a place for you [in heaven].

3 And if I go [to heaven] and prepare a place for you [in heaven], I will come again [to the air], and receive you unto myself [in the air]; that where I am [going, BACK TO HEAVEN], there [IN HEAVEN] ye may be also.

To prove this, WHERE is Jesus in chapter 19? First He is IN HEAVEN at the marriage and supper. Then, and ONLY then, does He get on the white horse and return. The bride will have been in heaven ever since the sixth seal when she was seen by John (Chapter 7) in the throne room.

Lamad

 

[Jack Terrence]

I made it clear that I understand that God's wrath judgments during the trib will not effect us who are obeying Him.

The tribulation is past. The first century saints were in it.

I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. Rev. 1:9 ESV

 

[iamlamad]

I made it clear that I understand that God's wrath judgments during the trib will not effect us who are obeying Him. Revelation chapter seven can help us to see that ones who serve God during the trib will be "sealed" so the wrath judgments do not effect them. And in another part of what I wrote I offered how our Father does have self-control.

So, the suffering of saints in the trib will be because of enduring persecution . . . not because of the wrath judgments.

Therefore, in answer to your question, all Jesus did on the cross is enough. It is finished.

Readers, this is MYTH!

Both Daniel and Revelation tell us that The Beast will be given authority to OVERCOME the saints. How could God give authority for the saints to be OVERCOME and at the same time provide protection for them? That is just goofy thinking and NOT the truth of scripture.

The truth is, ONLY Jews or descendants of Jacob will be sealed for protection, and that only during the FIRST half of the week, before the days of Great Tribulation come. They are caught up to heaven at the midpoint, so will not be on earth during the days of GT.

If believers are really obeying Him, they are getting ready for His coming, and EXPECTING Him to come any moment. They KNOW it is not His will that they be left behind when He comes to get His bride.

So what does OVERCOME mean here? It means that if a believer is left behind, or one BECOMES a believer after the pretrib rapture, they will be hunted down like animals, and forced to deny Christ or else lose their head. It is going to be VERY HARD TIMES to live through. It is not God's will that ANY believer lives through this time, but rather that they take His way of escape.

LAMAD

 

[com7fy8]

Lets talk about the "newborns" as you call them I favor Post Rapture saints. why will they suffer wrath.

For starters, it does not directly say Christians will be hurt by our Father's actions of wrath.

One possibility is they failed to believe and rejected Jesus before the rapture. But you cannot overlook the fact that it is Jesus the opens the seals and all the seals are divine judgements. When God judged Israel, the believers at that time also suffered from the judgement. When God judged Israel with the Babylonian captivity, believers like Ezekiel and Daniel and his 3 friends also suffered captivity.

Being a captive is not quite the same as God directly killing and torturing people with creatures who can sting like a scorpion, etc. And, like I have offered . . . our Father does have self-control so His actions of wrath do not hurt His own obedient children.

And . . . about Daniel's three friends > they in the fiery furnace itself, as I have clearly offered, already, were not even having the smell of the smoke. But the evil men who threw them in there were killed by those same flames. So, God can control this well who is effected and how

But don't ignore the obvious here God's wrath is not directed at the post rapture saints but only against the persecutors who are killing them because of there faith in Jesus.

And if His wrath is not directed against them, He is easily able to keep them from being hurt by the wrath judgments > His servants will be "sealed", as Revelation seven clearly shows to me.

Like I said in #56 no earth dweller can avoid God's wrath during the Tribulation period.

But you did not here state what scripture actually says this, if there is a scripture. My "opinion" is that there isn't. And we also do have "And who is he who will harm you if you become followers of what is good?" (1 Peter 3:13)

Removal from earth is the only way. A simpe look at Revelation will show that saints are killed on a massive scale, I fail to see how this is being kept safe.

I understand they will be killed only by persecution. And I think I made it clear I mean they will be kept safe from God's wrath judgments. I did not say they will be safe from the attacks of evil people. But, as I have offered, if those wrath judgments are messing with evil people, it "could" be hard for them to mess with us, unless God allows them some freedom to attack us.

It goes even farther than this: during the last 3 1/2 years, God allows the Beast to OVERCOME the saints. Both Daniel and Revelation tell us this. It will be VERY DIFFICULT to live as a believer then, for they will be hunted down like animals, tortured, and murdered in VAST numbers. There will be few places, if any, in the civilized world to hide.

"Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." (Romans 12:21) They can kill the body but not the soul. So, overcoming can mean merely torturing and killing us physically. I think it is good to talk about what is possible with God, so more than what is possible with evil people and their limited ability to "overcome" us, however they might be able > "be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might." (in Ephesians 6:10) "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." (in 2 corinthians 12:9)

 

[iamlamad]

The tribulation is past. The first century saints were in it.

I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. Rev. 1:9 ESV

MYTH! That tribulation that John was in CONTINUES to today. It is the very same great tribulation John wrote of in Rev. 7 that the Bride was caught up OUT OF. People are being martyred on a daily basis today, and it will only get worse.

But this is NOT the days of Great tribulation that Jesus spoke of, which are still FUTURE to us today. Those days Jesus spoke of will be greater than ANY OTHER any time in history or in the future. However, for those that wish to see it, those days will come SOONER THAN YOU THINK. And they will be MUCH HARDER than you think. That is why God has provided a way of escape.

LAMAD

 

[com7fy8]

I offered >

I made it clear that I understand that God's wrath judgments during the trib will not effect us who are obeying Him. Revelation chapter seven can help us to see that ones who serve God during the trib will be "sealed" so the wrath judgments do not effect them. And in another part of what I wrote I offered how our Father does have self-control.

So, the suffering of saints in the trib will be because of enduring persecution . . . not because of the wrath judgments.

Therefore, in answer to your question, all Jesus did on the cross is enough. It is finished.

And to this, I am Lamad says >

Readers, this is MYTH!

Both Daniel and Revelation tell us that The Beast will be given authority to OVERCOME the saints. How could God give authority for the saints to be OVERCOME and at the same time provide protection for them? That is just goofy thinking and NOT the truth of scripture.

You then could say our Father was not giving protection to Jesus and Paul, because of how Jesus and Paul suffered. But spiritually they overcame. They were protected spiritually. Even while Paul went through all the tribulation he did > he says "I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong." (in 2 Corinthians 12:10) He took "pleasure" in all his troubles, once he got the message of how Jesus Christ's grace is sufficient and His strength is made perfect in weakness.

Cutting off a head is overcoming physically, not necessarily spiritually!!

The truth is, ONLY Jews or descendants of Jacob will be sealed for protection, and that only during the FIRST half of the week, before the days of Great Tribulation come. They are caught up to heaven at the midpoint, so will not be on earth during the days of GT.

Since, to my knowledge, this is not directly explained by Jesus or in any New Testament writing, do you claim your authority for this from interpretation, or direct revelation, or some other means?

If believers are really obeying Him, they are getting ready for His coming, and EXPECTING Him to come any moment. They KNOW it is not His will that they be left behind when He comes to get His bride.

Our Father is easily able to get us through any tribulation.

So what does OVERCOME mean here? It means that if a believer is left behind, or one BECOMES a believer after the pretrib rapture, they will be hunted down like animals, and forced to deny Christ or else lose their head. It is going to be VERY HARD TIMES to live through. It is not God's will that ANY believer lives through this time, but rather that they take His way of escape.

Paul and those with him in Macedonia weren't running and hiding >

"For we do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, of our trouble which came to us in Asia: that we were burdened beyond measure, above strength, so that we despaired even of life. Yes, we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves but in God who raises the dead, who delivered us from so great a death, and does deliver us; in whom we trust that He will still deliver us, you also helping together in prayer for us, that thanks may be given by many persons on our behalf for the gift granted to us through many." (2 Corinthians 1:8-11)

So, no matter what we go through, it is time to trust in God and not in our own ability. We do not need to boast what Satan and his kingdom can do to us. But boast in how our Father is able

 

[Jack Terrence]

Readers, this is MYTH!

You're the pot callling the kettle "black."

 

[ebedmelech]

Here we come to one of the scriptural differences that distinctly prove that there are two different peoples of God.

Actually you don't. This portion of your post, I will address thoroughly. According to scripture there is ONE people of God and has alway been ONE people of God!

To make my case I'm going to go through scriptures that totally refute your premise and show you to ignore the clear teaching of scripture:

Jesus made clear there will be ONE FLOCK with ONE SHEPHERD as He speaks to the Jews in John 10:15, 16:
15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
16 I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

The "other sheep" are the Gentiles! They become ONE FLOCK with Jews, and Christ is our Shepherd!

Romans 12:4, 5 teaches the church is ONE body:
4 For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function,
5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

1 Corinthians 12:12, 13 teach the church us one body:
12 For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:20 still teaching the church is one body:
20 But now there are many members, but one body.

In Galatians 3:22-29:, Paul "brings it home" to us as he concludes what Christ did for ALL people at the cross:
22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.

There are those that want to say this only applies to salvation, but HOW can that be when:

*Salvation is THE LIFE we live after Christ and our ultimate salvation is yet to come.

*We are members of ONE body

*Paul is consistently saying "there is NO DIFFERENCE" between JEWS and GREEKS.

We have Paul teaching the very same point in Ephesians! Ephesians 2:13-22 DESTROYS any idea that there are "two peoples of God"!!! Paul is telling us what happened because or the cross:
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,
15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,
16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.
17 And He came and preached peace to you who were far away, and peace to those who were near;
18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.
19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household,
20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,
21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord,
22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

Again we're in Ephesians 4 as Paul CRUSHES any idea "two peoples of God" as he says at Ephesians 4:4-6:
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

The apostle Paul is addressing this again in Galatians as he argues to make it clear that there is NO DIFFERENCE between JEWS and GENTILES in Christ!



Let there ever be the thorough rejection of ANY IDEA of "two peoples of God". Jesus made both groups into one through the cross.

Biblewriter's view is not and NEVER will be correct!

 

[iamlamad]

I offered >

And to this, I am Lamad says > You then could say our Father was not giving protection to Jesus and Paul, because of how Jesus and Paul suffered. But spiritually they overcame. They were protected spiritually. Even while Paul went through all the tribulation he did > he says "I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong." (in 2 Corinthians 12:10) He took "pleasure" in all his troubles, once he got the message of how Jesus Christ's grace is sufficient and His strength is made perfect in weakness.

Cutting off a head is overcoming physically, not necessarily spiritually!!

Since, to my knowledge, this is not directly explained by Jesus or in any New Testament writing, do you claim your authority for this from interpretation, or direct revelation, or some other means?

Our Father is easily able to get us through any tribulation.

Paul and those with him in Macedonia weren't running and hiding >

"For we do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, of our trouble which came to us in Asia: that we were burdened beyond measure, above strength, so that we despaired even of life. Yes, we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves but in God who raises the dead, who delivered us from so great a death, and does deliver us; in whom we trust that He will still deliver us, you also helping together in prayer for us, that thanks may be given by many persons on our behalf for the gift granted to us through many." (2 Corinthians 1:8-11)

So, no matter what we go through, it is time to trust in God and not in our own ability. We do not need to boast what Satan and his kingdom can do to us. But boast in how our Father is able

What you speak of has NO BEARING on what is coming. There is coming the 70th week of Daniel, and in the last half of this week will be the days of Great Tribulation that Jesus spoke of. For these days, it is NOT that God does not have the power to rescue; it is that HE will not have AUTHORITY. For all authority on earth will be given to the BEAST for 42 months. It was GOD SELF that inspired Daniel and John to write that the beast will be given authority to OVERCOME the saints. God WILL NOT give authority to the Beast and then take it back! We serve a God that is TRUE to His word.

The entire world now, except for believers, want to live in a world WITHOUT GOD. And God is going to give them exactly what they have been clamoring for: a world without God interfering.

I think you have missed the fact that Satan is and has been the god of this present world. God then, LACKS AUTHORITY to have His will on earth. That is why He wants us to PRAY for His will to be done. It would be VERY SILLY to think God HAS is will on earth! Heaven is where He has His will, and heaven is PERFECT.

The point is, in THIS ONE CASE, the days of GT that are coming, God's will is for us to ESCAPE what is coming, by way of His pretrib rapture. It is NOT His will that ANY be left behind. But Sadly, many will.

What is God saying NOW?

My Children this is your GOD:
I want to address you about the near future: The world continues to increase in darkness. The hearts of the people grow shallow—they are walking in lust; cold from lack of love; pierced by the arrows of the enemy who wants to destroy them. Men’s hearts are waxing cold. I said this would happen and now the Truth has come to pass. The people have forgotten how to blush. They are so cold they have no compassion for their neighbors.
My church is the light in a dark world—she follows her GOD closely—she sees the truth while the lost run from the truth and scurries to the darkness out of sight. My church is bold in her testimony of ME. The lost deny I exist and look for reasons to explain ME away. MY church understands true love and what commitment and longsuffering looks like. MY church is persecuted in this evil world and the world is an enmity to MY church. She has MY heart and looks like ME. She is not attracted by the ways and desires of a dying world. The world is unclean and abominable to her. She has no interest in absorbing into the ways of a world that has turned its back to GOD. She resists the temptation to conform to a world that follows the on heals of MY enemy. Her eyes have been washed out with eye salve and she has been purified by MY blood, walks in Truth, and exhibits the traits of her GOD: Love; compassion; caring; longsuffering; peace; and joy. Only MY SPIRIT’s Power enables her to look like ME in front of a dying world. She has MY SPIRIT in full and her lamp shines brightly. She walks on paths of Light and shines with MY Truth in a deep dark world. She stands out among the wolves in sheep’s clothing, the lost, the goats.
This is MY bride—prepared and ready for MY Coming because she is watching and her face is turned toward her GOD. This is what separates her from the world: a heart of pure gold. Carry on MY faithful bride—the world, the skies, these things speak of MY coming even when the hearts of men deny MY Coming is true. Soon the lost left behind will repent with sadness over the plight they are facing apart from the HOLY SPIRIT removed from the world allowing the man of perdition to step forward and to terrorize mankind. Be ready children—how shall I call you? MY bride or MY left behind lost church? You decide—who do you want to spend eternity with? ME or MY enemy—there is only one choice and this is yours to make. Time is short. Always be prepared for MY coming.
The is the LORD YAHUSHUA
BRILLIANT LIGHT—The BRIGHT and MORNING STAR
(Letter dictated to Susan Davis Emphasis added)
​

It is God's will we are READY and taken, so escape what is coming. Anyone left behind then, are OUTSIDE of God's will. This is a very dangerous place to be.

Finally you should understand, you speak of things in the CHURCH AGE. This age will END with the pretrib rapture of the church. I am speaking of the days of Daniel's 70th week, and the Day of the Lord. It will be a different time, with different rules. Don't let this day catch you by surprise!

LAMAD

 

[Biblewriter]

Actually you don't. This portion of your post, I will address thoroughly. According to scripture there is ONE people of God and has alway been ONE people of God!

To make my case I'm going to go through scriptures that totally refute your premise and show you to ignore the clear teaching of scripture:

Jesus made clear there will be ONE FLOCK with ONE SHEPHERD as He speaks to the Jews in John 10:15, 16:
15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
16 I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

The "other sheep" are the Gentiles! They become ONE FLOCK with Jews, and Christ is our Shepherd!

Romans 12:4, 5 teaches the church is ONE body:
4 For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function,
5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

1 Corinthians 12:12, 13 teach the church us one body:
12 For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:20 still teaching the church is one body:
20 But now there are many members, but one body.

In Galatians 3:22-29:, Paul "brings it home" to us as he concludes what Christ did for ALL people at the cross:
22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.

There are those that want to say this only applies to salvation, but HOW can that be when:

*Salvation is THE LIFE we live after Christ and our ultimate salvation is yet to come.

*We are members of ONE body

*Paul is consistently saying "there is NO DIFFERENCE" between JEWS and GREEKS.

We have Paul teaching the very same point in Ephesians! Ephesians 2:13-22 DESTROYS any idea that there are "two peoples of God"!!! Paul is telling us what happened because or the cross:
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,
15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,
16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.
17 And He came and preached peace to you who were far away, and peace to those who were near;
18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.
19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household,
20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,
21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord,
22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

Again we're in Ephesians 4 as Paul CRUSHES any idea "two peoples of God" as he says at Ephesians 4:4-6:
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

The apostle Paul is addressing this again in Galatians as he argues to make it clear that there is NO DIFFERENCE between JEWS and GENTILES in Christ!



Let there ever be the thorough rejection of ANY IDEA of "two peoples of God". Jesus made both groups into one through the cross.

Biblewriter's view is not and NEVER will be correct!

You are absolutely correct that the church is one body. But Israel is not the church.

The church is promised blessing in heaven, and Israel is promised blessing on earth. You can deny it, but you cannot change the scriptures that say it.

 

[iamlamad]

You are absolutely correct that the church is one body. But Israel is not the church.

The church is promised blessing in heaven, and Israel is promised blessing on earth. You can deny it, but you cannot change the scriptures that say it.

Ebedmelech, I hope you come to UNDERSTAND those scriptures you show us. There are JEWS living in Israel today. There are probably some Hebrews from other tribes as will. They are descendants of Jacob and are NOT a part of the body of Christ - so any and all verses pertaining to His body will not fit! You are trying to fit a round peg into a square hole. At the same time, there are GENTILES living in Israel today that are not a part of the Body of Christ, but they are very much STILL GENTILES.

God has made PROMISES to those Jews and Hebrews living in Israel today. And He WILL fulfill them. As biblewriter has said, you CANNOT change the word of God to fit your theories.

LAMAD