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The Rapture - heretical teaching

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by random person, Jan 7, 2014.

  1. YES

  2. NO

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  1. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    The only "Left Behind" is in your "fantasy eschatology". Jesus overides you.

    "He that comes to ME, I will in NO WAY cast out".

    Even the premise with which you operate from is erroneous! So you can think what you want...but it won't happen.

    Once again, the rapture is the last day!
     
  2. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    Son-in-law to son-in-law...

    "It's like, wow, I have totally had it with that guys "fantasy eschatology!"
     
  3. cybersurfer

    cybersurfer Junior Member

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    Well I see the Old Straw-man approach here time and time again. Many not all come with a preconceived viewpoint then try to fit the Scriptures into the mold. Eisegesis if you ask me. A lot of presupposition and dogmatic assertions without the facts.
    When it comes to the Rapture two areas should be discussed. The events and timing.
    Lets talk about the events first since many say the rapture is false. We can start with a scripture that does not detail the Rapture program but it does contain the promise of it. JN 14:1-3 Let not your heart be troubled: believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I come again, and will receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
    The Key point of this passage is that this coming for the believers was for the purpose of taking them to where Jesus was going. Since Jesus was going to heaven, this is a coming by Jesus to take the saints to Heaven not the Earth. Sorry all the post tribulation believer's the earth is not the promise here. Jesus is coming to take the saints to Heaven. Nothing about the timing only that the result is entry to Heaven
    The other two scriptures which describes the program of the rapture are 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-58 deals with the change in the nature of our bodies. I see that these have already been discussed at length.
     
  4. cybersurfer

    cybersurfer Junior Member

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    [quote=com7fy8;64816649]

    (3) Ones argue that God has not appointed us to wrath, and therefore He will not have us going through the trib. Well, what about the newborns, then, who will be in the trib.? Do you think they will not be safe from our Father's wrath? If they are safe, why wouldn't you be? Our Father is not like some abusive father who in his wrath hurts his well-behaved children along with the naughty ones. Our Father has self-control. This can be demonstrated by how Shadrach and Meshach and Abed-Nego were right in that fiery furnace and the flames did not hurt them, at all, right while those flames took out the evil men who threw them into the furnace. Like this, our Father's trib judgments will only effect evil people, and will actually help to control them so they can't mess with us except as our Father has planned and controls. If you think "God" has a self-control problem, it is Satan who has this problem, not our Father; so if you think that in the trib you would be in danger from God's wrath . . . whose child are you? And do you have God and Satan mixed up, if you feel God in His wrath would hurt you who are a His child? Satan is the one who in wrath has his self-control problem; God our Father does not have such a problem, as we also can see through Psalm 91:7 which, to me, says thousands of evil people may fall at your left and right hands but it will not come near you[/quote]



    I wanted to comment on the third point you made because there is more to it then what you have said
    The promise that we are not appointed to God's wrath but unto salvation thru Jesus Christ is not a weak argument. When God's wrath was poured out on Jesus He said It Is Finished. so what is the purpose of God's wrath being poured out a second time on the very one's that Jesus already suffered and died for. Are you saying that what Jesus suffered for was not enough so a we must suffer God's wrath again. That is what you are saying if the church isn't raptured.
    Lets talk about the "newborns" as you call them I favor Post Rapture saints. why will they suffer wrath. One possibility is they failed to believe and rejected Jesus before the rapture. But you cannot overlook the fact that it is Jesus the opens the seals and all the seals are divine judgements. When God judged Israel, the believers at that time also suffered from the judgement. When God judged Israel with the Babylonian captivity, believers like Ezekiel and Daniel and his 3 friends also suffered captivity. But don't ignore the obvious here God's wrath is not directed at the post rapture saints but only against the persecutors who are killing them because of there faith in Jesus.
    Like I said in #56 no earth dweller can avoid God's wrath during the Tribulation period. Removal from earth is the only way. A simpe look at Revelation will show that saints are killed on a massive scale, I fail to see how this is being kept safe.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2014
  5. spiritandtruth2

    spiritandtruth2 Newbie

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    The Rapture is not what you are saying it is, it's a total fabrication of the truth.

    The word Rapture has never been used in the Bible, it is a man made word.

    And it is not the "Last Day"
     
  6. SwordFall

    SwordFall Junior Member

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    The Church believes in both Preterism and Post-Tribulation Rapture.

    You can pretty much simply take their word for it, they've been around the past two milleniums, and have heard it all.

    The Bible may not say 'rapture', but the context is the same. There will be a time when all Christians are risen from the chaos of destruction, when angels and demons wreak havok on this planet in the final battle.
     
  7. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    I wanted to comment on the third point you made because there is more to it then what you have said
    The promise that we are not appointed to God's wrath but unto salvation thru Jesus Christ is not a weak argument. When God's wrath was poured out on Jesus He said It Is Finished. so what is the purpose of God's wrath being poured out a second time on the very one's that Jesus already suffered and died for. Are you saying that what Jesus suffered for was not enough so a we must suffer God's wrath again. That is what you are saying if the church isn't raptured.
    Lets talk about the "newborns" as you call them I favor Post Rapture saints. why will they suffer wrath. One possibility is they failed to believe and rejected Jesus before the rapture. But you cannot overlook the fact that it is Jesus the opens the seals and all the seals are divine judgements. When God judged Israel, the believers at that time also suffered from the judgement. When God judged Israel with the Babylonian captivity, believers like Ezekiel and Daniel and his 3 friends also suffered captivity. But don't ignore the obvious here God's wrath is not directed at the post rapture saints but only against the persecutors who are killing them because of there faith in Jesus.
    Like I said in #56 no earth dweller can avoid God's wrath during the Tribulation period. Removal from earth is the only way. A simpe look at Revelation will show that saints are killed on a massive scale, I fail to see how this is being kept safe.
    [/quote]

    It goes even farther than this: during the last 3 1/2 years, God allows the Beast to OVERCOME the saints. Both Daniel and Revelation tell us this. It will be VERY DIFFICULT to live as a believer then, for they will be hunted down like animals, tortured, and murdered in VAST numbers. There will be few places, if any, in the civilized world to hide.

    As for babies and children, I believe God will take all children under the age of accountability with the Bride at the rapture. He certainly does not wish to send His wrath upon children, but upon adults that refuse to repent.

    LAMAD
     
  8. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    "NEWBIE" you are simply WRONG. It IS in the Latin bible, and that is where we get the word.

    "Rapture" is derived from Middle French rapture, via the Medieval Latin raptura which derives from the Latin raptus ("a carrying off").(Wikipedia)

    The Koine Greek of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 uses the verb form ἁρπαγησόμεθα (harpagisometha), which means "we shall be caught up" or "taken away", with the connotation that this is a sudden event. The dictionary form of this Greek verb is harpazō(ἁρπάζω).(Wikipedia)

    LAMAD
     
  9. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    You need to refresh yourself with the word "lukewarm," and what God says about it.

    LAMAD
     
  10. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    You cannot back up the "pre-tribulation rapture" with scripture. There is not ONE scripture that teaches it straight out.

    You say my view is a "total fabrication" but as our Lord spoke on these things he said not one word about anything but resurrection. As we read John 6 and Jesus is saying He is the bread of life...four times Jesus says resurrection is "the last day". These are the passages:

    John 6:39, 40:
    39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
    40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”


    John 6:44:
    44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

    John 6:54
    54 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

    Those are four emphatic statements by Jesus, that the resurrection and rapture is "the last day".

    You're correct "rapture" isn't in the bible...but neither is "trinity" in the bible. Both are perfectly good words that define what we mean.

    "Rapture" means "carry off".

    *The Greek word used for the term "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is "harpazo".

    *The same word is used of Paul where in 2 Corinthians 12:42, 44 where he is "caught up" to the 3rd heaven. The Greek word there is also "harpazo".

    I believe in a rapture. It will happen to living Christians when Christ returns on "the last day". As 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 says it plainly:

    1. The dead in Christ will rise

    2. Those in Christ who are alive will be "caught up" to meet the Lord in the air.

    That is the end! After that, Jesus enters judgment of the world in righteousness.

    Now...if you think what I said is "fabricated"...make your case for what you think.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2014
  11. shturt678s

    shturt678s Regular Member

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    :thumbsup: :amen:

    Old Jack ;)
     
  12. Jipsah

    Jipsah Blood Drinker

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    And get the good old animal sacrifice in the temple fired up again, right? ;)
     
  13. spiritandtruth2

    spiritandtruth2 Newbie

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    So who get caught up to meet the Lord in the air?

    Who is it and what are they going to do?
     
  14. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    All who have truly believed in the Lord Jesus Christ and have trusted him as the one who took the punishment for their sins.

    Whether or not they believe in the rapture or any other non-essential doctrine is immaterial, only whether or not they have trusted in Jesus.

    They will go to heaven to be with Jesus forever, and will return with him when He comes in power and glory.
     
  15. spiritandtruth2

    spiritandtruth2 Newbie

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    So are there people who are alive at the time going to heaven or have you to be dead or die?

    Does this mean millions of people?
     
  16. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    This is simply NOT TRUTH. It IS true as far as one becoming born again. God is no respecter of persons and ANYONE coming to Him with faith to be born again can be and will be. But we cannot compare apples with turnips. When it comes to the rapture, Jesus will come for those with FULL oil lamps. (Matt. 25) He will come for those WATCHING for His coming. He will come for those EXPECTING His coming. He will come for those who have FAITH in His coming. We can get NOTHING from heaven because of need or because or want. We must have FAITH to get anything from God. And the rapture will not be an exception.

    But don't take it from me, take it from Jesus Himself:


    Dear Children
    This is your LORD. I AM coming and NO one can stop ME. Some believe I will not ever come. Some believe I am not coming for a long time. Some think of ME as a far off GOD. I am none of these. I am coming with MY mighty angel army. I am going to split the skies open with the beauty of MY Majesty and MY Presence. Those watching will see ME first. They will see their KING make a grand entrance.
    The stage will be set for the removal of MY bride to lift her up into the skies out of harm’s way. She will follow ME out to safety. I will pull her free. There will be mass hysteria. People will run everywhere wondering what has happened because of the devastation and missing people. There will be many explanations for what has taken place. Most will be inspired by evil, who want to down play MY Coming.
    The world will not be the same. It will be the start of a new era—the onset of the antichrist kingdom in full force: man’s way of coping with the aftermath of the removal of MY bride from the earth. Once MY bride is taken free and MY SPIRIT is taken out of the way, the enemy’s kingdom will come into power in full force and no one will be safe from the domination of evil man run by evil spirits from the kingdom of darkness.
    Horror will reign on earth as I allow MY wrath to pour over the earth. Tribulation will reign supreme—Great Tribulation.
    MY children who are left behind will face their darkest hour. Dark decisions will be theirs to make choosing between the antichrist system which leads ultimately to eternal doom or choosing against the commanding system leading to their martyrdom. Many will be tortured and suffer greatly in order to escape the kingdom of darkness that will rule the earth and all who remain behind.
    You can avoid this end—turn to ME now as your only hope. Give ME your all in all—full surrender of your will into MY Hands. I will protect you, guide you, keep you in MY Will if you so desire to be MINE. Just surrender, repent, and submit yourself over to ME. All will be well between us. I will protect you from the coming evil: a system that is even now in the works.
    Please turn your life over to ME. I am pleading with you children. Walk with your GOD into safekeeping.
    I AM GOD…I AM ALL KNOWING…ALL SEEING…ALPHA & OMEGA…
    BEGINNING and the END

    (Prophecy dictated to Susan Davis: emphasis added)

    This prophecy is in total agreement with the written Word of God.

    LAMAD
     
  17. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Lamad, if you want to convince others at this site of some biblical understanding, you are going to have to stick with the scriptures that everyone accepts. The other sources, people don't accept.
     
  18. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    That is THEIR problem, not mine. God releases prophecy in the earth to be HEARD and heeded.

    LAMAD
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2014
  19. shturt678s

    shturt678s Regular Member

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    IThess.4:16, "...and the dead in Christ shall arise first" "in Christ" expounds what happens to the Saints, however per Jn.5:28, 29 "all" that are in their graves (bodies glorified) shall hear His voice and come forth, ie, the good and the bad - this is 'who' loosely speaking, due to only the bodies of all the living souls from Adam forward to the last one. Here the union of the dead, and the living believers form one joint host that is lifted in a divine raptus to meet their heavenly Lord a He descends.

    They will meet the Lord in welcome, and will descend to the earth with Him, and all His angels for the purpose of judgment, ie, keeping in mind those believers that already passed on were secretly, and forensically judged at the time of their passing where most today usurp this judgment, and have most going to heaven to keep church economics going and church on Sunday for 1.5 hours gives them their ticket. Sorry for run on sentences. :blush:

    Old Jack :idea:
     
  20. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    Like everyone else in eternity.
     
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