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Deborah D

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WHERE IN CORINTHIANS condem division?

Personally I think that a lot of 'senior pastors' of mega churches are probably really modern day apostles. But because of the apostate church false doctrines of the early church, apostles as well as prophets have been pushed down below the GOD ALMIGHTY PASTOR which wasn't even in the BIBLICAL listing for authority in the local church.

1CO 12:28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues.

Some would say that the "teacher" is the pastor. And some also equate that with the Eph 4 ministerial or pastoral gifting.

I'm done all. Going to home church.

This has been one of my main complaints in churches. The "pastor" does it all and then complains that no one else does anything.... Of course, many church members expect this of the pastor. Church has become a spectator sport instead of a vibrant, alive body of believers all operating in the spiritual gifts in order to build one another up in the love of Christ. It's so sad.
 
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swordsman1

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Barnabas was a prophet or teacher in Acts 13 and then sent out by the Holy Ghost and the church with a message with Paul as well. This made him and apostle Acts 14:14.

as clear as a new day to the unbiased reader I believe.

God bless

I agree Barnabas was an apostle (1 of about 15 or so). He was stated to be one (Acts 14:14). He was divinely appointed (Acts 13:2). And being part of the church from it's earliest days (Acts 4:36) he was no doubt an eye-witness of the resurrected Christ.

However Paul said he was the last person to see the resurrected Christ. Hence there can be no apostles today.
 
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Deborah D

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I agree Barnabas was an apostle (1 of about 15 or so). He was stated to be one (Acts 14:14). He was divinely appointed (Acts 13:2). And being part of the church from it's earliest days (Acts 4:36) he was no doubt an eye-witness of the resurrected Christ.

However Paul said he was the last person to see the resurrected Christ. Hence there can be no apostles today.

Barnabas was sent out by the Holy Spirit. That made him an apostle.
 
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swordsman1

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You error here and add your own stuff

the Greek does not say "eye witness"

it says

cleardot.gif

from 649; a delegate; specially, an ambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ ("apostle") (with miraculous powers):--apostle, messenger, he that is sent.

The following excerpt from Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology explains the qualifications for being an apostle.

a. Qualifications of an Apostle: The two qualifications for being an apostle were (1) having seen
Jesus after his resurrection with one’s own eyes (thus, being an “eyewitness of the
resurrection”), and (2) having been specifically commissioned by Christ as his apostle.4

The fact that an apostle had to have seen the risen Lord with his own eyes is indicated by Acts
1:22, where Peter said that person to replace Judas “must become with us a witness to his
resurrection.” Moreover, it was “to the apostles whom he had chosen” that “he presented himself
alive after his passion by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days” (Acts 1:2–3; cf.
4:33).

Paul makes much of the fact that he did meet this qualification even though it was in an unusual
way (Christ appeared to him in a vision on the road to Damascus and appointed him as an
apostle: Acts 9:5–6; 26:15–18). When he is defending his apostleship he says, “Am I not an
apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?” (1 Cor. 9:1). And when recounting the people to
whom Christ appeared after his resurrection, Paul says, “Then he appeared to James then to all
the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. For I am the least of
the apostles, unfit to be called an apostle” (1 Cor. 15:7–9).

These verses combine to indicate that unless someone had seen Jesus after the resurrection
with his own eyes, he could not be an apostle.

The second qualification, specific appointment by Christ as an apostle, is also evident from
several verses. First, though the term apostle is not common in the gospels, the twelve disciples
are called “apostles” specifically in a context where Jesus is commissioning them, “sending them
out” to preach in his name: And he called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority
over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every infirmity. The names
of the twelve apostles are these....These twelve Jesus sent out charging them, “...preach as you
go, saying, “The kingdom of heaven is at hand.”’ (Matt. 10:1–7)

Similarly, Jesus commissions his apostles in a special sense to be his “witnesses...to the end of
the earth” (Acts 1:8). And in choosing another apostle to replace Judas, the eleven apostles did
not take the responsibility on themselves, but prayed and asked the ascended Christ to make
the appointment:
“Lord, who knows the hearts of all men, show which one of these two you have chosen to
take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside....” And they
cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias; and he was enrolled with the eleven
apostles. (Acts 1:24–26)

Paul himself insists that Christ personally appointed him as an apostle. He tells how, on the
Damascus Road, Jesus told him that he was appointing him as an apostle to the Gentiles: “I
have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you to serve and to bear witness...delivering
you from the people and from the Gentiles—to whom I send you” (Acts 26:16–17). He later
affirms that he was specifically appointed by Christ as an apostle (see Rom. 1:1; Gal. 1:1; 1 Tim.
1:12; 2:7; 2 Tim. 1:11).

b. Who Were Apostles?

The initial group of apostles numbered
twelve—the eleven original disciples who remained after Judas died, plus Matthias, who
replaced Judas: “And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias; and he was enrolled
with the eleven apostles” (Acts 1:26). So important was this original group of twelve apostles, the
“charter members” of the office of apostle, that we read that their names are inscribed on the
foundations of the heavenly city, the New Jerusalem: “And the wall of the city had twelve
foundations, and on them the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb” (Rev. 21:14).
We might at first think that such a group could never be expanded, that no one could be added
to it. But then Paul clearly claims that he, also, is an apostle. And Acts 14:14 calls both Barnabas
and Paul apostles: “when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it....” So with Paul and
Barnabas there are fourteen “apostles of Jesus Christ.”

Then James the brother of Jesus (who was not one of the twelve original disciples) seems to be
called an apostle in Galatians 1:19: Paul tells how, when he went to Jerusalem, “I saw none of
the other apostles except James the Lord’s brother.”6 Then in Galatians 2:9 James is classified
with Peter and John as “pillars” of the Jerusalem church. And in Acts 15:13–21, James, along
with Peter, exercises a significant leadership function in the Jerusalem Council, a function which
would be appropriate to the office of apostle. Furthermore, when Paul is listing the resurrection
appearances of Jesus he once again readily classifies James with the apostles: Then he
appeared to James then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared
also to me. For I am the least of the apostles, unfit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted
the church of God. (1 Cor. 15:7–9)

Finally, the fact that James could write the New Testament epistle which bears his name would
also be entirely consistent with his having the authority which belonged to the office of apostle,
the authority to write words which were the words of God. All these considerations combine to
indicate that James the Lord’s brother was also commissioned by Christ as an apostle. That
would bring the number to fifteen “apostles of Jesus Christ” (the twelve plus Paul, Barnabas, and
James).

Were there more than these fifteen? There may possibly have been a few more, though we
know little if anything about them, and it is not certain that there were any more. Others, of
course, had seen Jesus after his resurrection (“Then he appeared to more than five hundred
brethren at one time,” 1 Cor. 15:6). From this large group it is possible that Christ appointed
some others as apostles—but it is also very possible that he did not. The evidence is not
sufficient to decide the issue.​
 
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Deborah D

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The following excerpt from Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology explains the qualifications for being an apostle.

a. Qualifications of an Apostle: The two qualifications for being an apostle were (1) having seen
Jesus after his resurrection with one’s own eyes (thus, being an “eyewitness of the
resurrection”), and (2) having been specifically commissioned by Christ as his apostle.4

The fact that an apostle had to have seen the risen Lord with his own eyes is indicated by Acts
1:22, where Peter said that person to replace Judas “must become with us a witness to his
resurrection.” Moreover, it was “to the apostles whom he had chosen” that “he presented himself
alive after his passion by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days” (Acts 1:2–3; cf.
4:33).

Paul makes much of the fact that he did meet this qualification even though it was in an unusual
way (Christ appeared to him in a vision on the road to Damascus and appointed him as an
apostle: Acts 9:5–6; 26:15–18). When he is defending his apostleship he says, “Am I not an
apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?” (1 Cor. 9:1). And when recounting the people to
whom Christ appeared after his resurrection, Paul says, “Then he appeared to James then to all
the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. For I am the least of
the apostles, unfit to be called an apostle” (1 Cor. 15:7–9).

These verses combine to indicate that unless someone had seen Jesus after the resurrection
with his own eyes, he could not be an apostle.

The second qualification, specific appointment by Christ as an apostle, is also evident from
several verses. First, though the term apostle is not common in the gospels, the twelve disciples
are called “apostles” specifically in a context where Jesus is commissioning them, “sending them
out” to preach in his name: And he called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority
over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every infirmity. The names
of the twelve apostles are these....These twelve Jesus sent out charging them, “...preach as you
go, saying, “The kingdom of heaven is at hand.”’ (Matt. 10:1–7)

Similarly, Jesus commissions his apostles in a special sense to be his “witnesses...to the end of
the earth” (Acts 1:8). And in choosing another apostle to replace Judas, the eleven apostles did
not take the responsibility on themselves, but prayed and asked the ascended Christ to make
the appointment:
“Lord, who knows the hearts of all men, show which one of these two you have chosen to
take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside....” And they
cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias; and he was enrolled with the eleven
apostles. (Acts 1:24–26)

Paul himself insists that Christ personally appointed him as an apostle. He tells how, on the
Damascus Road, Jesus told him that he was appointing him as an apostle to the Gentiles: “I
have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you to serve and to bear witness...delivering
you from the people and from the Gentiles—to whom I send you” (Acts 26:16–17). He later
affirms that he was specifically appointed by Christ as an apostle (see Rom. 1:1; Gal. 1:1; 1 Tim.
1:12; 2:7; 2 Tim. 1:11). b. Who Were Apostles? The initial group of apostles numbered
twelve—the eleven original disciples who remained after Judas died, plus Matthias, who
replaced Judas: “And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias; and he was enrolled
with the eleven apostles” (Acts 1:26). So important was this original group of twelve apostles, the
“charter members” of the office of apostle, that we read that their names are inscribed on the
foundations of the heavenly city, the New Jerusalem: “And the wall of the city had twelve
foundations, and on them the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb” (Rev. 21:14).
We might at first think that such a group could never be expanded, that no one could be added
to it. But then Paul clearly claims that he, also, is an apostle. And Acts 14:14 calls both Barnabas
and Paul apostles: “when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it....” So with Paul and
Barnabas there are fourteen “apostles of Jesus Christ.”

Then James the brother of Jesus (who was not one of the twelve original disciples) seems to be
called an apostle in Galatians 1:19: Paul tells how, when he went to Jerusalem, “I saw none of
the other apostles except James the Lord’s brother.”6 Then in Galatians 2:9 James is classified
with Peter and John as “pillars” of the Jerusalem church. And in Acts 15:13–21, James, along
with Peter, exercises a significant leadership function in the Jerusalem Council, a function which
would be appropriate to the office of apostle. Furthermore, when Paul is listing the resurrection
appearances of Jesus he once again readily classifies James with the apostles: Then he
appeared to James then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared
also to me. For I am the least of the apostles, unfit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted
the church of God. (1 Cor. 15:7–9)

Finally, the fact that James could write the New Testament epistle which bears his name would
also be entirely consistent with his having the authority which belonged to the office of apostle,
the authority to write words which were the words of God. All these considerations combine to
indicate that James the Lord’s brother was also commissioned by Christ as an apostle. That
would bring the number to fifteen “apostles of Jesus Christ” (the twelve plus Paul, Barnabas, and
James).

Were there more than these fifteen? There may possibly have been a few more, though we
know little if anything about them, and it is not certain that there were any more. Others, of
course, had seen Jesus after his resurrection (“Then he appeared to more than five hundred
brethren at one time,” 1 Cor. 15:6). From this large group it is possible that Christ appointed
some others as apostles—but it is also very possible that he did not. The evidence is not
sufficient to decide the issue.​

SM, not all theologians have a grip on the truth. I'm sure you realize this. No doubt many of them have had their heads filled with knowledge in their seminaries, but they don't know the truth. I've read this explanation about what makes an apostle from theologians and I've heard it preached, but I don't believe that this position represents the TRUTH about apostleship as a spiritual gift.
 
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swordsman1

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SM, not all theologians have a grip on the truth. I'm sure you realize this. No doubt many of them have their heads filled with knowledge in their seminaries, but they don't know the truth. I've read this explanation about what makes an apostle from theologians and I've heard it preached, but I don't believe that this position represents the TRUTH about apostleship as a spiritual gift.

If you think Grudem (and virtually every other respected evangelical theologian) is wrong in their analysis that apostles don't exist today, then go ahead and refute him.
 
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Alithis

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some apostles today have been re-named as missionaries. But the few true workers in this area are often not as the world would expect them to be

Paul said of apostles

"9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men. 10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised. 11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace; 12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it: 13 Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day. 14 I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you. 15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. 16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me."(1 Cor 4:9-16 KJV)

But today we see many false apostles who would almost be the exact opposite of many of these statements.
This is sadly a fact...
Entwined with wrong perceptions of anointing etc.
They dont see that the apostles are the lowest in hierachy .
The foundation beneath the floor
 
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Deborah D

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If you think Grudem (and virtually every other respected evangelical theologian) is wrong in their analysis that apostles don't exist today, then go ahead and refute him.

Well, SM, I think his position has been refuted on this thread. We just keep going round and round about this. Do you think you can wear us down with your verbose posts?
 
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NBB

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If you think Grudem (and virtually every other respected evangelical theologian) is wrong in their analysis that apostles don't exist today, then go ahead and refute him.

Look, personally i don't like when people just title themselves apostles, God is who can apoint someone an apostle, and if i where someone important i wouldn't care about titles but what i can do, but if Jesus need to appear to you, i am not an apostle, but one day i felt the love of God so intense in all my body and soul, everywhere, and Jesus got close to me spiritually, and i actually could discern him, and he told me about some personal things i won't share, so if it were for being close to Jesus, i had that one. Next is being apointed, which i am not suggesting i will ever be, but. But let's see if this is a 'throwing your pearls to the pigs case' or you just don't believe me.
 
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Alithis

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Wrong, i dont believe what churches are teaching about Him. I dont believe in modern apostles or prophets either. I have already said why.
So.. Go and believe in Jesus and all he said
And do it.
You Do believe him dont you?
 
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Alithis

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This has been one of my main complaints in churches. The "pastor" does it all and then complains that no one else does anything.... Of course, many church members expect this of the pastor. Church has become a spectator sport instead of a vibrant, alive body of believers all operating in the spiritual gifts in order to build one another up in the love of Christ. It's so sad.
Pretty much why iv not attended one in years now
 
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Deborah D

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Pretty much why iv not attended one in years now
I'm more interested in BEING the church than in going to church and watching a show. I meet with other Christians and fellowship wherever and whenever I can.
 
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Wrong, i dont believe what churches are teaching about Him. I dont believe in modern apostles or prophets either. I have already said why.

If a minister starts talking details of your life, no one knows about, and there is no way he would know, would you believe phropecies are real? because this has happened and to me too.
 
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LoveofTruth

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I agree Barnabas was an apostle (1 of about 15 or so). He was stated to be one (Acts 14:14). He was divinely appointed (Acts 13:2). And being part of the church from it's earliest days (Acts 4:36) he was no doubt an eye-witness of the resurrected Christ.

However Paul said he was the last person to see the resurrected Christ. Hence there can be no apostles today.
apostles and prophets along with the other giftings was given to the church AFTER the resurrection, Ephesians 48-11, until we come to the unity of the faith unto the perfect man, which all are still growing in.

So the apostles after the resurrection are in a specific ministry. There is no verse that says they have ceased.
 
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Alithis

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Sm is trying to say to us that the sig s wonders tongues healing were only for the apostles and only for the jews .so he thinks if he can prove there are no apostles today it will varify his perferred opnion.

The problem is.. Iv experienced demons vast out..and done it.
Iv experienced dreams . visions..other tongues.
Iv see many many healings as we lay hands on the sick including the deaf hear.
So .. He is simply wrong.
Look, personally i don't like when people just title themselves apostles, God is who can apoint someone an apostle, and if i where someone important i wouldn't care about titles but what i can do, but if Jesus need to appear to you, i am not an apostle, but one day i felt the love of God so intense in all my body and soul, everywhere, and Jesus got close to me spiritually, and i actually could discern him, and he told me about some personal things i won't share, so if it were for being close to Jesus, i had that one. Next is being apointed, which i am not suggesting i will ever be, but. Be let's see if this is a 'throwing your pearls to the pigs case' or you just don't believe me.
 
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Deborah D

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If a minister starts talking details of your life, no one knows about, and there is no way he would know, would you believe phropecies are real? because this has happened and to me too.

I have the gift of prophecy, and God has given me many words for people like what you're talking about. It's amazing to see God work in this way!
 
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