The question cessationists must answer.

[Deborah D]

But where are the true apostles and teachers? Why are they so silent? Can you point me to a real apostle?

I am a teacher. You can see my picture right there.

 

[W2L]

THERE IT IS!!!!! YOU BELIEVE THAT SATAN SPEAKS TO US, THAT SATAN PERFORMS SIGNS AND WONDERS, BUT NOT THE SAINTS OF GOD BY HIS UNLIMITED POWER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Get ahold of yourself, i just quoted scripture.

 

[W2L]

I am a teacher. You can see my picture right there.

Get real.

 

[NBB]

No i wouldn't. What about satan deceiving many with lying signs and wonders?

Satan can do signs and wonders but God can't?? what God of the bible is that

 

[Alithis]

I already addressed that.

Did not ask you to address it

Just go and do as the lord jesus says to do
Obedience is the only measure of true belief.

 

[Deborah D]

Get real.

I AM A REAL TEACHER! I mean, I'm real and I'm a teacher. That makes me a real teacher, doesn't it?

 

[Alithis]

Get ahold of yourself, i just quoted scripture.

Shes right though. You have compkete faith in the devil to do that stuff here and now today
But display no belief God is faithful to his word..

 

[Deborah D]

Did not ask you to address it

Just go and do as the lord jesus says to do
Obedience is the only measure of true belief.

And obedience to His words is proof that we love Him. (John 14:15)

 

[Deborah D]

1 Cor. 1:4-9

I always thank my God for you because of God’s grace given to you in Christ Jesus, that by Him you were enriched in everything — in all speech and all knowledge. In this way, the testimony about Christ was confirmed among you, so that you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ. He will also strengthen you to the end, so that you will be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful; you were called by Him into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.​

 

[Hillsage]

This has been one of my main complaints in churches. The "pastor" does it all and then complains that no one else does anything.... Of course, many church members expect this of the pastor. Church has become a spectator sport instead of a vibrant, alive body of believers all operating in the spiritual gifts in order to build one another up in the love of Christ. It's so sad.

For several decades we've followed the model of 'body ministry' as a biblical example for how 'church' is supposed to be done. And the fivefold ministry's job is to equip the saints to do the ministry work. Something I've heard you testify to, and a couple others on our side here also gave testimonies along the same lines, as have I. But the big nay sayer crowd here just seem quote their own theology as well as theologians and try to put down our Charismatic experience along with our personal testimonies of service. Service which often springs forth from a result of that experience. That does sadden me...for their sakes.

11 And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,

But, as you said, often it is the pastor doing most things. Sometimes because they're ruled unbiblically by the congregation and the pastor simply ends up being their paid for lackey. Then he just gets to do their jobs which they can't and won't even learn. Other pastors rule even above their biblical authorities. Authorities such as the 'elders' who are really supposed to be a 'pastor's' boss. In the past 40 years I seldom went to church to 'get anything', as much as I went to, 'give everything' I could to help others mature or be set free and be sanctified.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I dont believe there are apostles today. That's why the church division is not being fixed. Over 2000 years of division and no apostles to fix it.. That's my point, the evidence does not show that apostles are at work in the church today.

I try to help the churches all the time and others do as well. We usually are not always in the line light but rather despised and rejected of men

 

[LoveofTruth]

The apostles in that verse are referring to the original apostles.

No, this is refering to apostles after the resurrection. Interestingly the word “pastors” in the noun form is only seen once here in the New Testament. If we have so many pastors today and they seek to justify thier gift after Christ rose again then we see this verse shows they are for the church, just as apostles and prophets are. In Acts 13 we see Barnabas being called out and send as an apostle after the resurrection. Also read Acts 14:14

 

[swordsman1]

No, this is refering to apostles after the resurrection. Interestingly the word “pastors” in the noun form is only seen once here in the New Testament. If we have so many pastors today and they seek to justify thier gift after Christ rose again then we see this verse shows they are for the church, just as apostles and prophets are. In Acts 13 we see Barnabas being called out and send as an apostle after the resurrection. Also read Acts 14:14

There were indeed apostles appointed after the resurrection (Paul, Barnabas, James, and Matthias). But those plus the Eleven formed a closed group. And the word 'apostle' in our bibles refers only to that group of men. There cannot be further apostles since one of the qualifications for being an apostle was being an eye-witness of the resurrected Christ. And Paul said he was the last person to see Christ.

Notice the past tense in Eph 4:11 "And He gave some as apostles". Not 'gives', or 'will give'.

The same as in the previous chapter - "The mystery of Christ....has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets" (Eph 3:5). Not is being revealed, or will be revealed to ongoing apostles.

And of course the chapter before that - the church was "built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone" (Eph 2:20)

Apostles were authorized to be spokesmen for Christ (Luke 10:16, 2 Peter 3:2, 1 Cor. 14:37, 2 Cor 13:3, 1 Thes 2:13, 1 Thes 4:8, 15) and hence could even write scripture. Nobody today can speak authoritatively for Christ. Otherwise the canon would still be open.

 

[Francis Drake]

For several decades we've followed the model of 'body ministry' as a biblical example for how 'church' is supposed to be done. And the fivefold ministry's job is to equip the saints to do the ministry work. Something I've heard you testify to, and a couple others on our side here also gave testimonies along the same lines, as have I. But the big nay sayer crowd here just seem quote their own theology as well as theologians and try to put down our Charismatic experience along with our personal testimonies of service. Service which often springs forth from a result of that experience. That does sadden me...for their sakes.

11 And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,

But, as you said, often it is the pastor doing most things. Sometimes because they're ruled unbiblically by the congregation and the pastor simply ends up being their paid for lackey. Then he just gets to do their jobs which they can't and won't even learn. Other pastors rule even above their biblical authorities. Authorities such as the 'elders' who are really supposed to be a 'pastor's' boss. In the past 40 years I seldom went to church to 'get anything', as much as I went to, 'give everything' I could to help others mature or be set free and be sanctified.

Your understanding and experience matches mine almost word for word.
My experience of how God ordained his church to work started back in the mid70s, just like Paul describes below.-

1Cor14v26How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, everyone of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
27If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
29Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
30If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
31For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
32And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

I have learned to trust the way God ministers through the whole body, not just one expert at the front.
I love to see the gifts of the Spirit being manifest amongst the body.
I love to see how the gifts enable everyone to grow in maturity as they learn to hear their Heavenly Father's whisper.

The idea that it all ended when the apostles died is laughable.

 

[LoveofTruth]

There were indeed apostles appointed after the resurrection (Paul, Barnabas, James, and Matthias).

The New Testament type apostles would seem to be Paul, Barnabas, Silvanus, Timoteus and possibly Titus. None of these men as we read had seen Jesus entire life from Johns baptism to his resurrection to be eye witnesses. The apostles in that "group" who saw Jesus life from John till his resurrection had a specific calling to be witnesses of what they saw and of the life of Jesus. But similarly to the OT prophets they had a specific call and sent in a specific way. They do also extend into the meaning of the apostle and prophets and evangelist pastors and teachers of the New testament and their work is connected to that as well. But the apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors and teachers of Ephesians 4:11, were for the perfecting of the saints, the work of the ministry, the edifying of the body of Christ. This body of Christ is the church as Paul already mentioned in Ephesians 1. The first apostles did not initially have this ministry as the later apostles did, even though they extended into it.

And we see how God called out apostles after the resurrection in Barnabas and the church was also connected to this, even though an apostle is made, not of men nor by men but by Jesus Christ as Paul said in Galatians 1.

But those plus the Eleven formed a closed group.

This "closed group" is your made up stuff here and not scriptural. Paul and Barnabas along with the other apostles before the resurrection such as Peter John etc...were not in a closed group. As I mentioned just previous, the work of the original apostles were sent as witnesses to what they had seen from John till Jesus resurrection, the work of the apostles and prophets , evangelist , pastors and teachers was after the resurrection and for the church and perfecting of the saints etc. Some have called these two groups big A apostles and little a apostles, but there is no need for that talk they are just send with different aspects to their ministry.

And the word 'apostle' in our bibles refers only to that group of men.

No it doesn't, as I have shown.

There cannot be further apostles since one of the qualifications for being an apostle was being an eye-witness of the resurrected Christ. And Paul said he was the last person to see Christ.

This is not accurate. As far as we know Paul was not an eye witness of all Jesus did from John the baptist until his resurrection , not was Barnabas or Timothus or Silvanus or Titus, (as far as we know). Also when Paul says in a list "

"Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord? (1 Cor 9:1 KJV)

Here Paul simply list aspects of his call. He was an apostle, a sent one by the Lord, He was free and had seen Jesus Christ in a vision and they were the evidence of his work in the Lord. He is not saying that every apostle has to see Jesus Christ as he did. This would be to twist the text as some try to do.

Notice the past tense in Eph 4:11 "And He gave some as apostles". Not 'gives', or 'will give'.

You are very wrong here. And Greek and Tenses won't help your case here.

Also the word "gave" in Greek means to give, bestow, grant, it is used as "a prolonged form of a primary verb (which is used as an alternative in most of the tenses), to give...”

This is grasping at straws it seems to try and break down the clear argument in Ephesians 4:11 about apostle, prophets and other gifts still for today.

Using your logic here when we read

"16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."(John 3:16 KJV)

if we see the word "gave" not "gives", then none can have eternal life given today or believe on the Son today (which we all can and John writes as much in 1 John).

Also your logic here is unsound because we read of other gifts in that list as well as apostles and prophets for today for the church, such as evangelist, pastors and teachers. Using your logic they also are not for today because Paul wrote that God "gave" them. But if you keep reading the verses after that you will see they they are needed for the perfecting of the saints fr the work of the ministry for the edifying of the body of Christ, which all are still needed for the church today. Also this was UNTIL we all come in the unity of the faith unto the PERFECT man. This word perfect is the same word used in 1 Cor where were read "when that which is perfect is come" future tense. So the verse extends in Ephesians 4:11-16 for all the church of all time and UNTIL we all come into the unity and UNTO the perfect man. When Christ shall be all in all.

So if we use your argument there should also be no pastors today, seeing as the word "pastors" is only found here, once in the entire New testament as a noun (KJV). But I'm sure you don't want to say that pastors, evangelist and teachers are also not for today because of your twisting of the word "gave".

The same as in the previous chapter - "The mystery of Christ....has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets" (Eph 3:5). Not is being revealed, or will be revealed to ongoing apostles.

Again false. Just because God gave something in the past that was always there (I speak of the mystery that has been hid from ages). This doesn't mean he is not still revealing this mystery to all and ongoing to all saints in the future. We see that he is as scripture shows,

"4Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)"

Paul also wanted them to understand this mystery and we all have fellowship in this mystery even today,

"And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:"(Ephesians 3:9 KJV)

Apostles were authorized to be spokesmen for Christ (Luke 10:16, 2 Peter 3:2, 1 Cor. 14:37, 2 Cor 13:3, 1 Thes 2:13, 1 Thes 4:8, 15) and hence could even write scripture. Nobody today can speak authoritatively for Christ. Otherwise the canon would still be open.

Not all apostles wrote scripture or at least scripture that God included in the Bible.

We do not read of any of the other apostle writing scripture.

We also read of prophets in 1 Cor 14 let the prophets speak two or three" and yet we do not have any of their words in scripture. So a prophet can speak in the Spirit from God and we do not need to write it all down and add it to scripture. Just as apostles did not have to write down every word they spoke in Christ to the believers.

These prophets in the church of Corinth ( after the resurrection) could speak authoritatively as God spoke through them. As any could do today as well.

Even in Corinthin we read of all being able to prophesy one by one and we read

"But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: 25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth."(1 Cor 14:24,25 KJV)

And nowhere do we read that these HAVE ceased for today. Not even one verse.

It seems that you are simply trying to reason your way around and make scripture try to say what you want. But there is no scripture, not even one that says the gifts of the spirit and the gifts of apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher are not for today. If you try to get rid of two of those gifts then you would have to get rid of all five.

All these gifts are needed, and even more so today as the church faces massive onslought by the Devil, seducing spirits and the world.

I am not seeking to justify all those today who call themselves prophets or apostles. To me such gifts are very wonderful and very needed. But I know that there are many who are not called in such and this might cause some of the confusion. But because there are false apostles and prophets and evangelist, pastors and teachers, does not mean we should throw all GIFTs out.



This reasoning is also flawed to think so.

 

[W2L]

I try to help the churches all the time and others do as well. We usually are not always in the line light but rather despised and rejected of men

So you're an apostle? Is that what you're claiming?

 

[YeshuaFan]

Pastors/ministers need to cast out demons and pray for the sick, so what is your point?
All pastors please stop doing this things because some people not believe they need to do it?

The Church was not given the great commission to cast demons out of Christians, but to witness Jesus and the true Gospel to lost sinners, and to mature and train up those now saved by it!

 

[YeshuaFan]

Pastors/ministers need to cast out demons and pray for the sick, so what is your point?
All pastors please stop doing this things because some people not believe they need to do it?

Any of us can pray to God for healing, but none of us are gifted to have that always happen, as God still decides how to heal, and many times the healing comes from physically death!

 

[YeshuaFan]

I appreciate your "don't know" honesty W2L. So let me just start by saying I agree with the division in a family over this "baptism" which Jesus is talking about in Luke. And I don't consider it as 'watered down'. Why? Because I experienced it myself. I was born and raised as a Catholic....not as a Christian. And when I got radically saved and came home to tell my family that they weren't saved either...it didn't fly so well....other than the sparks of a sword fight, that is. I learned later that mom really was saved (during her 12 year old confirmation class, by a nun), even though she never received the baptism from the Holy Spirit until the day she died.

Now, as to you thinking Luke is speaking of the 'baptism of the Spirit', look at the tense of this baptism which Jesus is talking about. This baptism is in His FUTURE not in His PAST.

LUK 12:50 I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how I am constrained until it is accomplished!

Jesus was water baptized and then Spirit baptized in Chapter 3, so neither can be 'the baptism' which Jesus was stressing with....the 'one baptism' which divides saved from unsaved...a point which we both agree upon. This is the baptism of death on the cross which Jesus was wrestling with here, and also in the Garden at Gethsemane. And it is the 'death of Jesus' which is the ONLY BAPTISM that gives all Christians the very same 'born again' and saved holy spirit. And it is this spirit in us, which is just the same as the spirit which was in Jesus when he was born of Mary. And that spirit is the holy spirit of Christ. Not the Holy Spirit of God. That is what makes us ALL one spirit as the body of Christ.

1CO 6:17 But he who is united to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.

Notice that the 'inconsistent' translators correctly did not capitalize spirit here, because it is the spirit of Christ in us which is the new creation of our unsaved spirit.

Notice also that Eph 4 says nothing about the unity of the Church or of Doctrine. Neither does it say that we have to OBTAIN the unity of the spirit, but MAINTAIN it.

EPH 4:3 eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

The biggest problem with understanding this verse in the way I"m sharing is this. As I've shared many time here on CF translators capitalized spirit or holy spirit 52 times when it never should have been. Capitalization is not determined in the Greek grammatically like English. It is added according to the 'theology' and imagination of those translating. And, back to the point of this thread, those early translators never had the baptism of the Spirit to even be able to correctly relate to correct theology confirmed with experience. The spirit of Christ in us all is the only spirit that makes all of us the many membered body of Christ.

That is not a disputed fact. It certainly isn't water baptism because Paul himself wished he'd never water baptized anyone, so how could that be the baptism for "unity of the spirit" (with capitalization corrected) which makes the body of Christ ONE. And not just ONE but also divided from the unsaved spirit of those in the world.

Paul states to us the the Spirit of Jesus is the Holy Spirit Himself, so all saved are indwelt by the Holy Spirit Himself!

 

[YeshuaFan]

Revelation 19:10 (KJV) And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

When we as believers testify our belief in Jesus, that the spirit of prophecy as it exists today. As mentioned all prophecy (predictive) has been sealed up in scripture already.

Amen, as one gifted by God to prophesy means to have the enabling to proclaim the scriptures in power and in truth, and to bring out and apply the prophetic scriptures to us today, not to give forth any new ones!