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Featured The question cessationists must answer.

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Billy Evmur, Nov 4, 2018.

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  1. YeshuaFan

    YeshuaFan Well-Known Member

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    God can still say no to healing, as the person is now being called to heaven!
     
  2. YeshuaFan

    YeshuaFan Well-Known Member

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    I am looking forward to my glorified resurrected body, FAR superior to any healing that could be done to me here!
     
  3. YeshuaFan

    YeshuaFan Well-Known Member

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    WoF can only exist when extra biblical revelations so called are accepted by some who see Prophets and Apostles for today!
     
  4. YeshuaFan

    YeshuaFan Well-Known Member

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    the answer is yes, but the WoF tend to dodge that, and throw it back upon those of us who refuse to accept and teach their "full Gospel"
     
  5. W2L

    W2L Well-Known Member

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    How do you know im not?
     
  6. YeshuaFan

    YeshuaFan Well-Known Member

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    Maybe due to you not buying into WoF?
     
  7. Francis Drake

    Francis Drake Returning adventurer.

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    No matter how much scripture knowledge you claim, unless you also have revelation of the Holy Spirit, its nothing more than carnality, the Tree of Knowledge. Eating of the Tree of Knowledge brings death, even if that knowledge is bible knowledge.

    But even with no bible knowledge, revelation from the Lord brings life.

    My parents were not believers, but I first encountered the Lord in my bedroom, alone as a child.
    Sometime later in early teens, whilst out in the street, I heard him speak to me again, this time he told me things I would later discover in scripture.
    But it would be another ten years or so before I was shown the bible, I then realised it was talking about the God I already knew!

    So do not presume to tell me that God doesn't speak or give revelation today. I have been hearing him for well over 50 years!

    Just because your heart is hardened to hearing his voice, don't expect the same of others.

    But here's a scripture written specially for you swordsman, and take note, it is repeated 3 times in succession. I suspect the writer thinks it is most important.-
    Hebrews3v7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
    8Harden not your hearts,
    as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:


    and again-
    12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13...…
    15While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.


    and again-
    Heb4v6Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
    7Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.


    To insist that God doesn't speak today flies in the face of this and many other scriptures in OT and NT.
    I suggest you repent somewhat, and start listening for that voice.
     
  8. Francis Drake

    Francis Drake Returning adventurer.

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    You are the one who boasts you only follow to the bible, but you don't follow the bible at all, you follow your own opinion of the bible, mangling and twisting the words to suit your own agenda of rampant unbelief.

    So tell us all, what authority gives you the right to cancel at the stroke of your pen, the commandments of Jesus in Mark16?

    But to claim that scripture was fulfilled in Acts is arrogant hypocrisy, designed just to get yourself off the hook.
    Here's that verse again. Lets have a look at it.
    Mark16v15And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
    Has the gospel gone to all the world? Nope!
    Has it been preached to all creation? Nope!
    Even the very first verse proves you wrong.

    16“He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. 17“These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues;

    The first verse is still an ongoing ministry, and so is all the rest.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2018
  9. StrivingFollower

    StrivingFollower Member

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    I thank God he has so many ways of communicating to us. This world is lost enough.
     
  10. Francis Drake

    Francis Drake Returning adventurer.

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    Another evasive question from someone who claims to only follow the bible.

    You do know that the four gospels are not all the same don't you?

    You do know they cover all the same events, but describe them from different viewpoints don't you?

    You do know that they are all inerrant scriptures don't you?

    You do know that if something is found in one gospel, but not another, it doesn't mean someone got it wrong?

    You do know that you have to look at all the gospels to get the full story don't you?

    You do know that just because you don't like something in one gospel, you can't just ignore it by looking at a different gospel?

    You do know that the great commission as given in Mark and Matthew, both apply.

    You do know that claiming one gospel has precedence over another is just silly, don't you?

    You do know that asking me, "Where in the Great Commission of Mathew was demon casting out commanded to be done?" was just a scam to avoid answering my questions.

    So, YeshuaFan, how's your deliverance ministry coming on? Cast any interesting demons out lately?
     
  11. Francis Drake

    Francis Drake Returning adventurer.

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    Don't just make claims in a void Yeshuafan, enlighten me. Give me the scriptures that say such things.
     
  12. Francis Drake

    Francis Drake Returning adventurer.

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    As always, you go off at a tangent to avoid answering the questions about God's gift of healing today..

    Waxing lyrical about your wonderful resurrection body is irrelevant to someone who is suffering and in pain.

    From your infantile theology, it seems the best thing you have to offer is the needle that some of your states use at the end of their death rows.

    Decades ago, my wife had a beautiful gold ring with precious jewels in it. It was an antique, a family heirloom. Unfortunately, it had worn thin and was in danger of breaking. So we took it to the jewellers to see if they could repair it.
    They took ages and delayed repeatedly when we called to see if it was ready. Finally we went to collect it, but what they gave us was a totally different ring. The settings were much thicker and heavier. I don't know if the stones were the same or not as we couldn't tell.

    It was no longer a family heirloom and no longer a valuable antique. The ring had not been repaired, and what we now had was a complete fake and of no value to us.

    When people talk about the gift of healing, and you start to rabbit on about your resurrection body and getting to heaven, you are doing the same thing, faking it.
    Your old body has not been repaired and you have certainly not experienced God's healing.

    To claim otherwise is pure fraud.
     
  13. Francis Drake

    Francis Drake Returning adventurer.

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    @YeshuaFan , you appear to have missed my post No1536, so I've posted the main content of it here.
    Given that you reject the idea that God speaks to his children, can you explain this event for me?

    About 30 years ago, after my wife's car was stolen, I was indignant and asked the Lord to do something about it. Two days later, as I was at a trade counter buying some plumbing materials, I distinctly heard the Lord tell me to drive down a certain street and I would find my wife's car.

    I paid for my goods and then set off to find that street. As I slowly cruised down that street, there was my wife's car parked on the forecourt of a shop, the thieves obviously inside!

    There was a police station at the end of that road, so I raced back and very quickly told the desk sergeant. I then raced back and waited for the boys in blue to come and do their job. The thieves were arrested along with a whole load of stolen goods and credit cards.

    That is revelation today, received through a word of knowledge. The Lord does such things for those who listen.
     
  14. Billy Evmur

    Billy Evmur Brother Supporter

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    You have to show that in the life of Jesus, He IS God. did He ever say to anyone who came to Him "no I will not heal you." Did the apostles ever say so?
     
  15. Alithis

    Alithis Disciple of Jesus .

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    Because your resisting what he already said ,by teaching that it does not apply to you today.
    Of course if we ate going to do that youll have to consistant and apply it to all scripture. Not just your fav ones
     
  16. Alithis

    Alithis Disciple of Jesus .

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    Why would the lord say no after what he suffered to make healing available?
    They are so full of contradictions these unbelievers
     
  17. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    No, you are mistaken as the text clearly says. if Paul wrote "we" referring to himself and Silvanus and Timotheus, either he and Silvanus, or he and timothy etc, then I simply believe his words. I don't try and ignore the words because of an assumed timeline in Acts. Luke may not have recorder all events. Paul spoke truth when he said "we". You ask if I am making Paul a liar, this is a false reasoning, the one making Paul a liar would be the one who doubts his clear words "we" in the text.

    To try and imply when Paul uses "we" "our" and "us" he is saying no, I don't mean "we" I mean only me. It a false interpretation of the text and showing doubt of the clear words of scripture.

    Here is the words "we" and "our" and "us"n chapter 1-3. there are 7 in chapter one all referring to Paul Silvanus and Timotheus,


    "Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

    2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers;


    3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

    4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

    5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.


    6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:


    7 So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia.

    8 For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.


    9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;


    10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."

    In chapter 2 we also see Paul use the plural form "we" referring to either all three or possibly two of them, either Silvanus with Paul or Timotheus with Paul. As the chapter clearly shows. But the context of Paul saying they were the apostles (plural) was to them about all three of them. The other examples Paul gives are contextual to the ministry they had as apostles in other places either two or three of them. The words we are what Paul wrote so I simply believe it. Obviously in Acts we do not have all the info.

    There is too much assumption on your part of text and reading into text to try and maintain your stance.

    Here is Chapter 2 and all the "we" verses and "our" and "us" again very clear Paul is not speaking loosely with words. Paul said he used great plainess of speech to believers.

    "For yourselves, brethren, know our [plural speaking of all three of the men at the first verse Pauyl Silvanus and Timotheous].entrance in unto you, that it was not in vain:


    2 But even after that we had suffered before, and were shamefully entreated, as ye know, at Philippi, [possibly speaking of Paul and Silvanus which would still make the we and our pluyral and not only Paul, and thus show that Sivanus was an apostle in verse six and Paul as well] we were bold in our God to speak unto you the gospel of God with much contention.


    3 For our [all three of them we can assume or two of them in certain context, but still a plural form] exhortation was not of deceit, nor of uncleanness, nor in guile:


    4 But as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God, which trieth our hearts.


    5 For neither at any time used we flattering words, as ye know, nor a cloke of covetousness; God is witness:


    6 Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, [here in this context he is speaking of all three of them coming to them and their behaviour, not of Pauls alone to try and avoid this clarity is resting scripture I believe] nor yet of others, when we [in context speaking of their coming to them and how they behaved themselves among them Paul Silvanus and Timotheous. You cannot taken event with Paul and Silus in the vs 2:1 and say that this is the same context as vs 6. This is your error here among others] might have been burdensome, as the apostles [plural form apostles. Paul did not say apostle singular. I don;'t know how much clearer this can be. It is clear to the unbiased reader I believe] of Christ.


    7 But we were gentle among you,[speaking in context of their coming to them, not of the past events he mentions in 2:1 or 3:1.] even as a nurse cherisheth her children:


    8 So being affectionately desirous of you, we were willing to have imparted unto you, not the gospel of God only, but also our own souls, because ye were dear unto us.


    9 For ye remember, brethren, our labour and travail: for labouring night and day, because we would not be chargeable unto any of you, we preached unto you the gospel of God.


    10 Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe:


    11 As ye know how we exhorted and comforted and charged every one of you, as a father doth his children,


    12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.

    13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.


    14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

    15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

    16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.


    17 But we, brethren, being taken from you for a short time in presence, not in heart, endeavoured the more abundantly to see your face with great desire.


    18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.


    19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

    20 For ye are our glory and joy.


    and in chapter 3 we see the same "we" and "our" and "us" clear to the unbiased reader. We do not have to try and make a contradiction and try to match verses in Acts to Paul's words, obviously Luke in Acts did not write all the details of all events. Paul spoke truth clearly. So this must have been a "we" as the text says. I simply believe the word. I don't need to try and make it fit my understanding.

    "1 Wherefore when we [Paul said "we" not "I"]could no longer forbear, we thought it good to be left at Athens alone;[Al;l the events are not mentoned here. or in Acts. But this contextual event simply speaks of the aposltes who were coming to Thessalonians and some of their actions in love towards them. Timothy being sent to them. They , all three were apostles to the tehssalonians as 2:6 says. This story wether apaul was actually with Timothy or by himself does not negate all the constant references to "we" "our and "us" all pluarl forms of their apostle ministration]

    2 And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith:

    3 That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.


    4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.


    5 For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain.


    6 But now when Timotheus came from you unto us, and brought us good tidings of your faith and charity, and that ye have good remembrance of us always, desiring greatly to see us, as we also to see you:


    7 Therefore, brethren, we were comforted over you in all our affliction and distress by your faith:


    8 For now we live, if ye stand fast in the Lord.


    9 For what thanks can we render to God again for you, for all the joy wherewith we joy for your sakes before our God;


    10 Night and day praying exceedingly that we might see your face, and might perfect that which is lacking in your faith?


    11 Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.


    12 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:


    13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints."



    Pulpit Commentary again

    But this view does not correspond with the natural wording of our passage, as καταλειφθῆναι, to be left behind, to remain behind, evidently presupposes the previous presence of Timotheus. We must therefore, with Zanchius, Piscator, Cornelius a Lapide, Beza, Wolf, Benson, Macknight, Eichhorn, Schott, Olshausen, de Wette, Koch, Hofmann, and others, suppose that Timotheus actually came from Berea to Athens, and was sent from it by the apostle to Thessalonica. To this interpretation we appear constrained by ἐπέμψαμεν, 1 Thessalonians 3:2, and ἔπεμψα, 1 Thessalonians 3:5, as hardly anything else can be denoted with these words than a commission given directly by Paul to one present.
     
  18. NBB

    NBB Well-Known Member

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    Actually if you have only biblical knowledge of God, and have not experience anything from Him, your knowledge is very very limited, only God can open our eyes to the spiritual truths described in the bible.
     
  19. NBB

    NBB Well-Known Member

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    There is a huge amount of things that are not explicit said in the bible.
     
  20. Alithis

    Alithis Disciple of Jesus .

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    Im sitting here with some missionary friends that have been sent here by the lord to help in the work.
    They just shared how they were in sth africa and asked a group of very stern anc supporters if any one wanted prayer for healing. A promanant lady turned to her group and snidley said

    "I wonder money how much these peoole want for thier prayers"

    My friend heard her and said No we dont ask any money its for FREE.

    The lady spun around shocked and asked "you speak my language"?
    He said No i just heard what you said. now everyone was listening.his wife said..but she definatly did not speak in english..and the lady confirmed she did not.
    But my friend said .but i heard you in English..

    Folks this is a real live testimony of real life .
    The gifts of interpretation of tongues is as alive today as is the Lord Jesus.dont listen to these unbelieving naysayers.
    Having a form of Godliness they deny the power there of.
    They need to Repent of unbelief.
     
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