The question cessationists must answer.

[LoveofTruth]

Not another one. Did you not notice what it says immediately after the word 'revelation'? "may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him"

This is not a verse endorsing extra-biblical revelations as you try and make out. Quite the opposite. The revelation we receive is the knowledge of God. And where is that knowledge revealed? Yep, in scripture.

What would you call this type of word to another.

I was being led of the Spirit into a certain place and as I waited on the Lord I ended up speaking to a professing minister and exhorted him. As I walked out I walked across the street and right face to face with a street person, a struggling individual, in darkness and anger. As I spoke the truth to him I then said , without pre-meditation, I found my self saying words to him similar to this "if you keep going the way your going you will walk across the road get hit by a car and break your leg" I said this in boldness and it just came out of my mouth. He seemed to reject it and walked of in his sin.
About a week later I was with another brother ministering downtown in a different location much farther north of the city. As we walked I saw that same man approach us he had a broken leg and was in crutches wobbling over towards us. When he saw me he became startled and shocked and I asked him " what happened to you" he said he walked across the road got hit my a car and broke his leg. I reminded him of what I had said to him before and he remembered and fear came upon him. I shared the gospel with him again and bought him some food and he went off on his way.

What do you call that?

These type of things have happened many times. And some miraculous things and wondrous things. Might deeds.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I am just stating that there are NO recorded instances where Christians were demon possessed in the Bible, if they could be, would not Jesus or one of His Apostles wanted to warn us against that?

Judas was an apostle a sheep of Jesus who belonged to him at one time given power to cast out devils and raise the dead (Matthew 10) and a familiar friend of Jesus and later Satan entered into him and he was lost.

This is a clear example of a believer a sheep sent to the lost sheep falling away and being possessed.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Luke and mark were known to be associated and under the covering of Apostles paul and peter,

This idea of "who is your covering" to day is unbiblical. God's Spirit is our only covering and in His love and protection.

"Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin:"(Isaiah 30:1 KJV)

 

[NBB]

Judas was an apostle a sheep of Jesus who belonged to him at one time given power to cast out devils and raise the dead (Matthew 10) and a familiar friend of Jesus and later Satan entered into him and he was lost.

This is a clear example of a believer a sheep sent to the lost sheep falling away and being possessed.

You can have spirits, i mean not possesed, but the evil spirits are there from your past life, and they just don't go away when you convert, it may God delivers you of something but a lot of spiritual problems related to the devil, can still be there long after you convert.

 

[LoveofTruth]

You can have spirits, i mean not possesed, but the evil spirits are there from your past life, and they just don't go away when you convert, it may God delivers you of something but a lot of spiritual problems related to the devil, can still be there long after you convert.

The devils can attack us as believers but not touch us if we keep ourself in the faith and love of God.


"We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."(1 John 5:18 KJV) keepeth meaning to guard like a fortress etc.

But if we sin and leave a door open they can attack much closer.

I know this is a reality and true word.

 

[NBB]

The devils can attack us as believers but not touch us if we keep ourself in the faith and love of God.


"We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."(1 John 5:18 KJV) keepeth meaning to guard like a fortress etc.

But if we sin and leave a door open they can attack much closer.

I know this is a reality and true word.

About spiritual problems related to the devil from your past, i say its a lot harder for evil spirits to enter since when you become a christian, but i actually recognize some evil spirits that i had since i was very young, and long after converting one day one pastor casted them out of me, i felt when they left i recongized them. You just can't say the evil spirits leave when you convert, some of them can stay there until you drive them out.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I have done nothing of the sort. I denounce what people claim to be gifts when they are clearly nothing of the sort - they do not match the biblical descriptions. The people who mock God are the ones who knowingly attribute to Him things which are clearly not of Him.

What do you call this and the ministry that happened.

I was downtown sent to preach in the main part of the city as we have many times.

I prayed to the Lord that we needed something to stand on like a ladder. Just then my brother in Christ drove up the street and honked the car. He stepped out and said he had a ladder for us. I was amazed and marveled and told him I just prayed that. So we set the ladder up, because there was alot of people. As I climbed up the ladder I saw over the people to a large crowd down the street watching a group of dancers on the street. I was led at that moment to say to my brother and another brother in Christ we should walk down the street further to that location. I went there and saw a large round concrete water sprinkler on the street just beside the dancers. I stood up on it it was about a few feet tall. I waited on the Lord and as soon as they finished dancing I preach in such boldness to the crowd and a large crowd gathered I preached repentance and the gospel and warned them of their sin.

As I preached one of the dancers a young man with no shirt on came forward and began to curse me violently. I saw him and for some reason I stepped down off the sprinkler to the ground level and stood before him and told him he needed Jesus. I saw his stomach convulse in and out and his tone changed to a deep tone and his face changed. I saw a man possessed in front of me. He yelled at me and pulled his fist back to strike me just as he was about to punch me. My other brother Tim raised his hand from behind me over my shoulder and rebuked him and spoke words from God. The man suddenly fell to the ground screaming and holding his ears in a crazy type of fit this happened before all the people. I then told the people that their is power in the name of Jesus, these things we speak to you are real, we are not playing games with your souls and many other words as the man shook and screamed in terror as our hands both were over him. He attacked a few times after he ran off and every time he came at us he fell to the ground screaming. This was a demonstration of the power of God.

Many times similar things have happened and many wonderous stories events and mighty deeds in the Lords power. Glory to the Lord.

After people came forward and we open the scriptures to them and shared the gospel.

What do you call that?

 

[LoveofTruth]

Somebody having the gall to correct an apostle? The cheek.

every believer should take correction from any other believer in faith.

 

[NBB]

Maybe due to you not buying into WoF?

Nobody seems to be defending wof, Pentecostal or charismatic, doesn't mean == WOF

 

[W2L]

Because your resisting what he already said ,by teaching that it does not apply to you today.
Of course if we ate going to do that youll have to consistant and apply it to all scripture. Not just your fav ones

I already said my opinion was not based on scripture but instead the lack of true apostles and teachers today. Many teachers are teaching the fallible traditions of men so i dont consider them to be gifted but rather trained..

 

[Alithis]

I already said my opinion was not based on scripture but instead the lack of true apostles and teachers today. Many teachers are teaching the fallible traditions of men so i dont consider them to be gifted but rather trained..

Im beginning to see that nothing you say or claim is based on scripture. Which means you are teaching fallible traditions of men .

 

[W2L]

Im beginning to see that nothing you say or claim is based on scripture. Which means you are teaching fallible traditions of men .

What tradition is that? My tradition is that i dont trust teachers who teach fallible tradition? How can they be called by God if they are teaching fallacy? They are not called but instead trained by other fallible men teaching fallible tradition. Thats not a spiritual gift.

 

[Alithis]

The two prophets are proof that prophecy has now ceased! God would not have to specifically raise up 2 prophets if the gift of prophecy was still active.

opinion based on zero scripture.
the 2 prophets told of in revelation are just proof the 2 prophets havnt come yet

 

[Alithis]

And we still have them. Paul, John, Peter, Matthew, James.... They are still building up the body of Christ and equipping his people.

when were they resurrected to do so?
thry may have failedsonce you yourself reject being equipped to do anything the lord Jesus said to do.
you only do those yhings which any worldy person can achieve.
things which require no faith .

 

[Alithis]

What tradition is that? My tradition is that i dont trust teachers who teach fallible tradition? How can they be called by God if they are teaching fallacy? They are not called but instead trained by other fallible men teaching fallible tradition. Thats not a spiritual gift.

your doing the same thing as the people you accuse.
you teach cessationism
a man made tradition baed upon opinion not scripture.
youve told us numerous times you dont base your opinions on scripture- your words.
which leaves you man made fallible traditions.

 

[W2L]

your doing the same thing as the people you accuse.
you teach cessationism
a man made tradition baed upon opinion not scripture.
youve told us numerous times you dont base your opinions on scripture- your words.
which leaves you man made fallible traditions.

Do i teach that? Where have i taught that? Quote me.

 

[Alithis]

Do i teach that? Where have i taught that? Quote me.

oh your a word game player.
have you recieved the holy Spirit and do you speak in tongues, heal the sick, prophecy ,dream dreams, have visions are you FREE from sin ?

 

[W2L]

oh your a word game player.
have you recieved the holy Spirit and do you speak in tongues, heal the sick, prophecy ,dream dreams, have visions are you FREE from sin ?

No, im simply refuting your assertion. As for your question, I have love in my heart for those with mental health issues who suffer at the hands of charismatic extremists. Does that count?

 

[swordsman1]

I don't try and ignore the words because of an assumed timeline in Acts. Luke may not have recorder all events.

Then what you are doing is making unwarranted assumptions and reading you own ideas into scripture which are not there. The timeline in Acts indicates Paul was left on his own in Athens.

In chapter 2 we also see Paul use the plural form "we" referring to either all three or possibly two of them, either Silvanus with Paul or Timotheus with Paul.

So you admit that "we" in 1 Thes 2:2 is just Paul and Silas who suffered in Philippi. If you say Paul is not using the word "we" loosely, but that he uses it consistently to refer to the same people, then your own logic proves that Timothy at least was not an apostle. Verses 1 and 2 are the same sentence, so the "our coming to you" in v1 must also be just Paul and Silas; and the other "we" in verse 2 must also be just Paul and Silas, the "we .... who speak to you" (otherwise Paul's grammar is completely up the creek). So if it is Paul and Silas who "came to you" and "spoke to you" then, as your logic would dictate, the "we" in the following verses must also be just Paul and Silas. So Timothy was not an apostle in v6. (But we knew that anyway from the way Paul referred to Timothy in the opening of his other epistles - "Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus...and Timothy our brother”).

Pulpit Commentary again

But this view does not correspond with the natural wording of our passage, as καταλειφθῆναι, to be left behind, to remain behind, evidently presupposes the previous presence of Timotheus. We must therefore, with Zanchius, Piscator, Cornelius a Lapide, Beza, Wolf, Benson, Macknight, Eichhorn, Schott, Olshausen, de Wette, Koch, Hofmann, and others, suppose that Timotheus actually came from Berea to Athens, and was sent from it by the apostle to Thessalonica. To this interpretation we appear constrained by ἐπέμψαμεν, 1 Thessalonians 3:2, and ἔπεμψα, 1 Thessalonians 3:5, as hardly anything else can be denoted with these words than a commission given directly by Paul to one present.

The Pulpit commentary is right, Timothy was in Athens, and was sent to Thessalonica in 1 Thes 3:2. The so the "we" who were left behind in 1 Thes 3:1 definitely does not include Timothy. The timeline in Acts would indicate that it doesn't include Silas either.

Here are a couple of other more up-to-date commentaries:

Wayne Grudem - Systematic Theology

a. Qualifications of an Apostle: The two qualifications for being an apostle were (1) having seen Jesus after his resurrection with one’s own eyes (thus, being an “eyewitness of the resurrection”), and (2) having been specifically commissioned by Christ as his apostle.4

The fact that an apostle had to have seen the risen Lord with his own eyes is indicated by Acts 1:22, where Peter said that person to replace Judas “must become with us a witness to his resurrection.” Moreover, it was “to the apostles whom he had chosen” that “he presented himself alive after his passion by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days” (Acts 1:2–3; cf. 4:33).

Paul makes much of the fact that he did meet this qualification even though it was in an unusual way (Christ appeared to him in a vision on the road to Damascus and appointed him as an apostle: Acts 9:5–6; 26:15–18). When he is defending his apostleship he says, “Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?” (1 Cor. 9:1). And when recounting the people to whom Christ appeared after his resurrection, Paul says, “Then he appeared to James then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. For I am the least of the apostles, unfit to be called an apostle” (1 Cor. 15:7–9).

These verses combine to indicate that unless someone had seen Jesus after the resurrection with his own eyes, he could not be an apostle.
...

Others have been suggested as apostles. Silas (Silvanus) and sometimes Timothy are mentioned because of 1 Thessalonians 2:6: “though we might have made demands as apostles of Christ.” Does Paul include Silas and Timothy here, since the letter begins, “Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy” (1 Thess. 1:1)?

It is not likely that Paul is including Timothy in this statement, for two reasons. (1) He says just four verses earlier, “we had already suffered and been shamefully treated at Philippi, as you know” (1 Thess. 2:2), but this refers to the beating and imprisonment which happened just to Paul and Silas, not to Timothy (Acts 16:19). So the “we” in verse 6 does not seem to include all of the people (Paul, Silvanus, Timothy) mentioned in the first verse. The letter in general is from Paul, Silas and Timothy, but Paul knows that the readers will naturally understand the appropriate members of the “we” statements when he does not mean to include all three of them in certain sections of the letter. He does not specify “—that is, Silas and I—had already suffered and been shamefully treated at Philippi, as you know,” because the Thessalonians will know who the “we” are that he is talking about.

(2) This is also seen in 1 Thessalonians 3:1–2, where the “we” certainly cannot include Timothy:

Therefore when we could bear it no longer, we were willing to be left behind at Athens alone, and we sent Timothy our brother and God’s servant in the gospel of Christ, to establish you in your faith and to exhort you. (1 Thess. 3:1–2)

In this case, the “we” refers either to Paul and Silas, or else just to Paul alone (see Acts 17:14–15; 18:5). Apparently Silas and Timothy had come to Paul in Athens “as soon as possible” (Acts 17:15)—though Luke does not mention their arrival in Athens—and Paul had sent them back to Thessalonica again to help the church there. Then he himself went to Corinth, and they later joined him there (Acts 18:5).

It is most likely that “We were willing to be left behind at Athens alone” (1 Thess. 3:1), refers to Paul alone, both because he picks up the argument again in verse 5 with the singular “I” (“When I could bear it no longer, I sent that I might know your faith,” 1 Thess. 3:5), and because the point concerning extreme loneliness in Athens would not be made if Silas had stayed with him.8 In fact, in the previous paragraph, Paul means “I,” for he says, “We wanted to come to you—I, Paul, again and again—but Satan hindered us” (1 Thess. 2:18). Apparently he is using “we” more frequently in this epistle as a courteous way of including Silas and Timothy, who had spent so much time in the Thessalonian church, in the letter to that church. But the Thessalonians would have had little doubt who was really in charge of this great mission to the Gentiles, and on whose apostolic authority the letter primarily (or exclusively) depended.

So it is just possible that Silas was himself an apostle, and that 1 Thessalonians 2:6 hints at that. He was a leading member of the Jerusalem church (Acts 15:22), and could well have seen Jesus after his resurrection, and then been appointed as an apostle. But we cannot be very certain.

The situation with Timothy is different, however. Just as he is excluded from the “we” of 1 Thessalonians 2:2 (and 3:1–2), so he seems to be excluded from the “we” of 1 Thessalonians 2:6. Moreover, as a native of Lystra (Acts 16:1–3) who had learned of Christ from his grandmother and mother (2 Tim. 1:5), it seems impossible that he would have been in Jerusalem before Pentecost and would there have seen the risen Lord and come to believe in him, and then suddenly have been appointed as an apostle. In addition, Paul’s pattern of address in his letters always jealously guards the title “apostle” for himself never allowing it to be applied to Timothy or others of his traveling companions (note 2 Cor. 1:1; Col. 1:1: “Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus...and Timothy our brother”; and then Phil. 1:1: “Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus”). So Timothy, as important a role as he had, should not rightly be considered one of the apostles.


John Stott - The Message of 1 & 2 Thessalonians [Intervarsity, 1994], 71-74.

Three points may be made. First, Luke in Acts is quite clear that Paul was the leader of his mission team. Silas had been chosen to replace Mark, and Mark had been only a "helper' [cf. Acts 13:5; 15:37ff]. Timothy, though much loved, was clearly a junior [Cf. Acts 16:1ff]. Luke does indeed couple 'Paul and Silas' as fellow prisoners [cf. Acts 16:19, 22, 25, 29), Roman citizens [cf. Acts 16:38], and co-labourers [cf. Acts 16:40; 17:4]. Yet he makes it clear that Paul did the preaching, in both the Thessalonian and the Berean synagogues [cf. Acts 17:2-3, 11]. If, then, he was the leading preacher, it is all but certain that he was the leading writer (of 1 Thessalonians] too.

Secondly, Paul was an Apostle, whereas Silas and Timothy were not. True, Silas was a leader in the Jerusalem church, an official delegate of the Jerusalem Council and a Prophet [cf. Acts 15:22, 27, 32], but he is never named an Apostle. Nor is Timothy. In fact, in later letters Paul deliberately distinguishes himself from Timothy in this respect by writing 'Paul, an Apostle of Christ Jesus and Timothy our brother' (cf. 2 Cor 1:1; Col. 1: 1; cf. 1 Cor 1: 1; Phm 1).

It is in the light of this that we must understand the surprising expression 'as Apostles of Christ we could have been a burden to you' (1 Thes. 2:6b). Either Paul was using the word 'Apostles' here in its broader sense of 'missionaries' (cf. Acts 14:4, 14; 2 Cor 8:23; Phil 2:25], or he was referring to himself as the Apostle but was forced by grammar to write 'Apostles' in the plural, in order to be in apposition to 'we' (rather like 'we were left alone [monoi, plural]' in 3:1).

Thirdly, there are many examples in Paul's other letters where he moves from "I" to "we" without appearing to change the identity of the subject. ... his use of "we" is never incompatible with his leadership role in the mission team and never lessens his authority as an Apostle of Jesus Christ.

 

[swordsman1]

Just because your heart is hardened to hearing his voice, don't expect the same of others.

But here's a scripture written specially for you swordsman, and take note, it is repeated 3 times in succession. I suspect the writer thinks it is most important.-
Hebrews3v7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

and again-
12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13...…
15While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

and again-
Heb4v6Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

To insist that God doesn't speak today flies in the face of this and many other scriptures in OT and NT.
I suggest you repent somewhat, and start listening for that voice.

I hear God's voice all the time. But do you know what God's voice is? Charismatics are taught that "my sheep hear my voice" and this is the Lord speaking to you by putting thoughts and feelings into your head, which you can then verbalize into "The Lord told me......". But that is an invention of the charismatic movement. Nowhere in scripture does it say God speaks to us like that.

Let's do a little word study on God's voice. Perform a search in the bible for the word 'voice', picking out the times it is referring to God's voice, and you will notice that it is either:

1. The literal audible voice of God:

Deut 4:12 "Then the Lord spoke to you from the midst of the fire; you heard the sound of words, but you saw no form—only a voice."

Ezekiel 1:28 "Such was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. And when I saw it, I fell on my face and heard a voice speaking."

Matt 3:17 "and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.”"

Mark 9:7 "Then a cloud formed, overshadowing them, and a voice came out of the cloud, “This is My beloved Son, listen to Him!”

John 12:28 "Then a voice came out of heaven: “I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.” So the crowd of people who stood by and heard it were saying that it had thundered; others were saying, “An angel has spoken to Him.”

Acts 9:4 "he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”"

(this is a small selection)​

or
2. God's word recorded in Scripture:

Psalm 103:20 "Mighty in strength, who perform His word, obeying the voice of His word!"

Judges 2:20 "So the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and He said, “Because this nation has transgressed My covenant which I commanded their fathers and has not listened to my voice"

2 Kings 18:12 "because they did not obey the voice of the Lord their God, but transgressed His covenant, even all that Moses the servant of the Lord commanded;

Psalm 106:24-25 "They did not believe in His word, but grumbled in their tents; they did not listen to the voice of the Lord."

Jer 9:13 "The Lord said, “Because they have forsaken My law which I set before them, and have not obeyed My voice nor walked according to it".

Deut 13:18 "if you will listen to the voice of the Lord your God, keeping all His commandments"

Deut 15:5 "if only you listen obediently to the voice of the Lord your God, to observe carefully all this commandment"

Deut 26:14 "I have listened to the voice of the Lord my God; I have done according to all that You have commanded me."

Ex 19:5 "Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant"

Ex 23:21 "But if you truly obey his voice and do all that I say, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. " (this is Moses speaking)

Dan 9:10 "nor have we obeyed the voice of the Lord our God, to walk in His teachings which He set before us through His servants the prophets."

1 Sam 12:14 "If you will fear the Lord and serve Him, and listen to His voice and not rebel against the command of the Lord"

1 Sam 12:14 "If you will not listen to the voice of the Lord, but rebel against the command of the Lord,"

Jer 26:12-13 "The Lord sent me to prophesy against this house and against this city all the words that you have heard. Now therefore amend your ways and your deeds and obey the voice of the Lord your God".

Jer 40:2-3 "The Lord your God promised this calamity against this place; and the Lord has brought it on and done just as He promised. Because you people sinned against the Lord and did not listen to His voice, therefore this thing has happened to you".

Psalm 81:11 “But My people did not listen to My voice, And Israel did not obey Me.​

Now when Jesus said my "sheep hear my voice" we are told this was a figure of speech (John 10:6). Jesus is not literally a shepherd; we are not literally sheep; and we not literally hear his voice. It is a metaphor. So if it not the audible voice of God, then it must be other option. The Lord's voice is his speaking to us in scripture. Not thoughts popping into our heads.