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Featured The question cessationists must answer.

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Billy Evmur, Nov 4, 2018.

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  1. W2L

    W2L Well-Known Member

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    Oh my. Have a nice day folks i have said enough.
     
  2. Deborah D

    Deborah D Prayer Warrior Supporter

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    I know, but I think it would be good for him to learn to defend his beliefs.

    So, this is for him.:)
     
  3. Deborah D

    Deborah D Prayer Warrior Supporter

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    W2L, I said that I'm not defending WOL! I haven't defended them in any of my posts. You're the one who is criticizing them, but you can't even give specifics. I feel like I'm going round and round with you. You need to be able to defend what you believe!
     
  4. W2L

    W2L Well-Known Member

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    I have heard that same line from other WOF posters. Its like they cant refute what you say so they ask the question "do you understand WOF?"Have a nice day friend. In done. :)
     
  5. Deborah D

    Deborah D Prayer Warrior Supporter

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    Nope, that's not what I'm doing. I'm only asking for specifics, which you have not supplied.

    As Christians, we need to know specifically what we believe, and we need to be able to defend our beliefs. I urge you to learn to do this! Christians who cannot defend what we believe can become sitting ducks for false teachers.
     
  6. Billy Evmur

    Billy Evmur Brother Supporter

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    how can judgement be shaken together pressed down and running over? "the measure you give will be the measure which is meted out again.

    Paul teaches the same doctrine..."he who gives bounteously will also reap bounteously, he who gives sparingly will also reap sparingly"
     
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  7. W2L

    W2L Well-Known Member

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  8. Hillsage

    Hillsage One for Him and Him for all Supporter

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    Judging you? Well I suppose I did. But, IF what I said was true, then what are you complaining about? After all I included myself in the rich 'church of America' just in case you missed that point.

    My posts almost always have scripture. And my last one, which you never addressed at all, quoted three. So if I twisted 'anything', then this post of yours should be a written rebuttal instead of just sounding like a cheap bottle of whine. ;)

    As for your judgment of me 'twisting scriptures'...let me just share my post again and elaborate this time, so you can easily 'point out my error'....in your next post.

    The quote boxes below were from my last post with the scriptures I quoted "in part". But they are now here 'in red in the quote' and below the quote box is the full RED verse below, so as to help others know I'm quoting the bible.
    This first verse is just showing the difference between the 'unknown tongue' of a Christian's spirit. Even the translators correctly did not capitalize spirit here.

    1CO 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

    And as for this next verse I share two different translations. It is a verse which your side understandably hates to have quoted, because it clearly points out THREE different groups. Charismatic Christians, NON Charismatic Christians and complete heathens.

    KJV 1CO 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues (Charismatics), and there come in those that are unlearned/idiotes, or unbelievers/apistos, will they not say that ye are mad?

    NAS 1CO 14:23 Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted/idiotes men or unbelievers/apistos enter, will they not say that you are mad?


    Group ONE is the "whole Church" which is obviously ALL charismatic since Paul even believes If therefore ALL speak in tongues. Now I know that modern "ungifted/unlearned" began to call this statement a hyperbole, a long time ago, and it's no 'wonder why'. Funny thing is, Paul never said that it was hyperbole. So it seems to me that it is your side who is "twisting the scriptures" as far my side is concerned.

    Group TWO is the "unlearned" (KJV) and the "ungifted" (NAS) ones. I only see this, as a group of non Charismatic Christians at Corinth which Paul said would have judged the Corinthian Charismatics as speaking like "mad" men, IF they ever showed up in a Charismatic church. So, I see no twisting here of scripture on our part either. I just see your side not liking the harsh language of what Paul said, and then I see you getting mad at me for pointing it out. :doh:

    "ungifted" "unlearned"
    2399 idiotes: a private person, i.e. (by impl.) an ignoramus (comp. "idiot")

    Group THREE is simply those who are non Christian heathens or "unbelievers" even as the Greek below defines them to be;

    "unbelievers"
    0571 apistos: (act.) disbelieving, i.e. without Christian faith (spec. a heathen); (pass.) untrustworthy (person), or incredible (thing)

    Then we come to the word in the next quote which my post didn't do justice is presenting. We were coming out of 'a canyon camping trip' and I didn't have my computer to post with. And on my phone it's too hard for me to post color/bold/full scripture. But in rereading my post, I notice that I left the complete (Acts 2:6) verse out which I was referring to, so I'll present it here. And if you think I've twisted anything at all, just share my error with your next post.

    And here is that interesting word which was used in Acts 2:6

    ACT 2:6 And at this sound/phone the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one heard them speaking in his own language.

    5456 phone fo-nay' probably akin to 5316 through the idea of disclosure; a tone (articulate, bestial or artificial); by implication, an address (for any purpose), saying or language:--noise, sound, voice.

    So, according to this verse above the unbelieving Jews heard the disciples in the house of the Lord on the day of Pentecost speaking in a prayer language which sounded like a "bestial" or "artificial" articulation. Sure doesn't sound like 'foreign languages of men' like your side twists the scripture to believe. And it was that "sound/phone" which drew the crowd to THEN hear the manifestated "gift of tongues" from the Holy Spirit (not the disciple's spirit), speaking in tongues of men, which men did understand.

    So, there I've hopefully backed up everything I said.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2018
  9. Deborah D

    Deborah D Prayer Warrior Supporter

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    So, you give me a video of one WOF teacher. You're still not telling me your specific objections.

    Edit: I'm not condemning you or trying to tear you down. I'm pulling for you and praying for you as we debate.

    2nd Edit: I decided to watch the video you linked to here. I'm astounded that you used this to show what WOF preachers teach! All I can say is that you should read and obey those verses you've been quoting to everyone else about judging.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2018
  10. W2L

    W2L Well-Known Member

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    Both Matthew and Luke are recording the sermon on the mount. If we compare them we see that The Lord is talking about how we judge.

    Matthew 7 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    Judging Others
    7 “Do not judge so that you will not be judged. 2 For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and [a]by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.

    Luke 6:37Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; [v]pardon, and you will be pardoned. 38 Give, and it will be given to you. They will [w]pour into your lap a good measure—pressed down, shaken together, and running over. For by your standard of measure it will be measured to you in return.”
     
  11. YeshuaFan

    YeshuaFan Well-Known Member

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    Word of faith teaches that we can name it and claim it, as there is power in the spoken word, as just as God spoke something out of nothing, we have the same meand and ability to do that as he did! They also hold to things such as visualization, we receive what we confess for good/bad, many also teach that Jesus died a sinner and so needed to get reborn again in Hell, and so as a Born again man he defeated satan, and so we can do that because we too are now born again! Much of their theology is heretical and not of from God!
     
  12. Alithis

    Alithis Disciple of Jesus .

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    made me laugh how you listed none of the things i said .. you don't believe the gifts are for today .. that is why you dont believe peoples testimonies -you choose to call them liars .
    but the new testament is a collection of "testimonies " .

    you have nothing to prove anything Paul said about himself or his experiences . only what he wrote .
    believing is always a choice and when one believes one takes action based upon it . so one seeks God to ask him for the "promised " Holy Spirit and gets what he asks for in belief - then they testify of that.
    this is where you choose to not believe them and infer they lie - why do you persecute the lord Jesus this way. repent of unbelief.
     
  13. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    The word "charismatics" has gotten an unfortunate wrap by many mainline churches. Mainly because too many "charismatics" (IMO) are show-offs and prideful ... as if those that receive the Gift of a private prayer/praise language are better/more seasoned than other Christians.

    Is it any wonder that many Christians, even mature Christians, are cessationists.
     
  14. Alithis

    Alithis Disciple of Jesus .

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    wof is only a section of a section of charismatic circles .. im not WOF i'm of the faith of Jesus .and IN the faith of Jesus - i test myself on this often. -the lord showed me after 30 years in the church that i was not IN the faith (being in Church does not equate to being in the faith .)
    there are "principles in the WOF movement that are directly from the bible . but sometimes used with wrongful intent . (such as the misused term name it and claim it when one wants a flash car -ie- your never going to walk on water when the lord told you to take the dirt path not cross the water )
    the biggest error that threatens wof is that it is .. faith in faith . not always faith in God .
     
  15. Anto9us

    Anto9us Well-Known Member Supporter

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    OK - perhaps I could have pointed out that those 'safe house' sub-forums in my earlier post are areas where CONTINUATIONISTS can post free of CESSATIONIST tripe. Because that is the more correct antithesis of Cessationist -- a Continuationist need not speak in tongues themselves; they simply have a theological position that does not propose that prophecy, tongues and word of knowledge have "ceased".
     
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  16. swordsman1

    swordsman1 Well-Known Member

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    So you bismirch, but you haven't refuted my position.

    Your assertion was that ministers are appointed by Christ. The verse you quoted doesn't support that claim in any way.

    I'm glad to see you admit that apostles and prophets disappeared, although you got the reason completely wrong. There is no historical evidence that apostles and prophets were persecuted out of existence. The real reason is given in scripture - it was because apostles and prophets were only for the foundation of the church.

    Eph 2:20 "built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone".

    I agree Barnabas was an apostle. But how does that disprove my argument?

    <sigh>
    When Paul said "us, the apostles," he wasn't referring to him and Apollos, he was referring to him and the Twelve. He wouldn't have used the definite article "THE apostles" if he was just referring to him and Apollos.

    When Paul uses "we" in this epistle he doesn't always mean him, Silas, and Timothy. Eg It says in 1 Thes 2:2 "we suffered shameful treatment at Philipi" - but Timothy was not in Philipi. Paul also says "we were willing to be left in Athens" in 1 Thes 3:1 - but neither Silas nor Timothy were in Athens with Paul. So obviously Paul is using the word “we” very loosely - probably as a courtesy to Silas and Timothy. So you cannot use that verse to claim that Silas and Timothy were apostles. In fact Timothy was definitely not because Paul begins a couple of epistles with "Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus...and Timothy our brother”

    Oh my, I see you had to scrape the barrel to find a bible version that translates this word as 'apostle' (Youngs Literal Translation). Out of 60 or so bible versions I checked, only 6 translate it as 'apostle' (all of them obscure versions). The vast majority, including all the most popular and respected versions, translate it as 'messenger'.
     
  17. Deborah D

    Deborah D Prayer Warrior Supporter

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    YeshuaFan, I find your assessment to be very sloppy. Of course, I can't speak for every WOF teacher out there, so I won't try.

    The ones I've heard and read teach that we can claim God's promises. IOW, if God has named it, we can claim it by faith because God is faithful and all-powerful. I agree with this, but I have found that we have to be careful not to expect God to fulfill His promises as we think He would or should or in our timing.

    Also, I haven't heard any teach the belief that God spoke something out of nothing. I have heard them say that "we can have what we say" based on Mark 11:22-24, which says,

    Jesus replied to them, “Have faith in God. I assure you: If anyone says to this mountain, ‘Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, all the things you pray and ask for — believe that you have received them, and you will have them...."
    Again, this is based on faith. The possible problem I see with this thinking is that I have found that this only works when God has given me the gift of faith for something. A footnote in one of my Bibles says that "Have faith in God" may be translated "Have the faith OF God." I believe this is the gift of faith (1 Cor. 12:9) When HE gives me this kind of faith, I KNOW that the "mountain will move" if I command it to.

    One example of this is when God gave me the faith to pray for my daughter's healing. I KNEW when I prayed for her that she would be healed, and symptoms of her ailment that she had experienced for years were alleviated within 30 minutes. (I spoke of this in an earlier post.) She was recently tested for the ailment, and testing showed that the ailment is gone.

    The issue of visualization can be tricky. Most of us have heard that New Age/Eastern mysticism utilizes this practice, but the devil is a copycat and tries to copy what the Holy Spirit does in order to deceive us. The fact is that the Holy Spirit sometimes shows us something in our minds, such as visions. In the Old Testament, prophets were called "seers." (See 1 Chron. 26:28 and 1 Sam 9:9.) God sometimes gives a vision, and the person SEES what the Holy Spirit is showing him. This can be in the form of a prophetic word such as in the case of John in Revelation. But also, I believe God gives visions for other reasons. When God gave me the faith to pray for my daughter's healing, the Holy Spirit gave me a picture of the affected body part in my mind.

    Wow! I've never heard or read the one that "Jesus died a sinner...." You'll have to offer proof for that one. That is clearly heresy, but I would like to see who has taught that, if any WOF teacher ever has.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2018
  18. swordsman1

    swordsman1 Well-Known Member

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    The word 'unknown' does not appear in the original Greek. It was added by the KJV translators. Didn't you know that?

    I see you're still flogging that old horse, attempting to make cessationists look foolish by trying to associate them with the Greek word 'idiotes'.

    The BDAG Lexicon entry for ἰδιώτης (idiotes) translated as 'ungifted' in the NASB is:
    one who is not knowledgeable about some particular group’s experience, one not in the know, outsider.

    Cessationists well versed in the things of the Spirit and know exactly what the gift of tongues is, as the Bible gives us a thorough description of the gift. The equivalent of idiotes today then would be people who are ignorant of that description or willfully dismiss it and come up with a definition of their own that is alien to scripture.

    The lexicon you quoted, despite being a poor one, lists the various meanings of phone. You only highlighted one of them. Did you miss where it says the word can also refer to 'language'? The rest of v6 tells us exactly what the foreigners heard - "each one of them was hearing them (the disciples) speak in his own language".
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2018
  19. swordsman1

    swordsman1 Well-Known Member

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    You didn't list anything.

    No, my position is that I don't believe ALL the NT gifts are for today. The same as most continuists don't believe ALL the NT gifts are for today either. Most continuists believe apostles are not around today, and apostle is listed as a gift.

    I never called the storytellers liars, although some probably are. Most of them are cases of wishful thinking, exaggeration, mistakeness or delusion. Some are like chinese whispers, being embellished as they pass from person to person. A few may even be true. I never said I don't believe in miracles.

    The New Testament is the inerrant inspired word of God. That is the one source that is guaranteed to be true.
     
  20. Alithis

    Alithis Disciple of Jesus .

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    -exactly -you were trying refute what wasnt said .

    exactly -YOU don not believe (apostle means sent one )

    - you just did it again .

    and yet .. you do not believe all of it- you just said so .-if its the inerrant word of god then you should believe all of it not cherry pick parts .
    so - repent of unbelief . no ones going to be changed by your objections to faith and you cant practice faith in what you do not fully believe
     
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