The origin of the Pre-trib rapture theory? Paul himself?

[iamlamad]

The start of the trib is found in Rev 13, and it lasts 42 months and then Jesus returns, found in Rev 11 which shows the ending of the trib.

There are always various kinds of tribs but "the trib" has special global events that just haven't happened yet.

Most people call Daniel's 70th week (7 years long) as "the tribulation." The week will last for 7 years. None of the week will be fun. The first half will be the first 6 trumpet judgments and the three woes. The second half will be the days of GT that Jesus spoke of and the vials of God's wrath. It will become almost impossible for a believer in Jesus to live during the last half.

What chance did a Jew have in Berlin in 1943? Chances of him or her remaining hidden were extremely slim, and if caught, death was a surety. It will be worse during those days of GT Jesus spoke of.

 

[iamlamad]

I sorry I haven't read the whole thread. Hope it's ok to jump in. I remember hearing a pastor say there was a very utilitarian reason for the rapture which is to evacuate (Sort of like Noah's ark was for evacuation before the planet was destroyed with water:

'But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.' 2Peter 3-10

The same pastor (Church of Christ btw) said the Tribulation has been going on since Jesus ascended and is basically the persecution and corruption of the early Church, killing of martyrs etc. Is there any room for that interpretation of the tribulation? I don't know either way and have always been a little confused by the subject, but we've had plagues like the Black Death in Europe. Didn't one plague kill 1/3 of the population. Is there any indication of how long the tribulation will last and when it started or will start exactly? Could it be a 2000 year long tribulation?
Also, is Israel reforming after the Second World War a solid sign that all the prophesies will be fulfilled before that generation passes away? I know there is a verse that speaks to that but I can't locate it.
I did just find this Jewish website about all the different prophesies being fulfilled in Israel right now
True Indicators of the Last Days | Jewish Voice Ministries International

The first five seals were opened by Jesus as soon as He ascended. Seal was was to represent the church sent out with the gospel. Seals 2-4 were to represent the devil's atempts to stop the advance of the gospel - but they were limited to 1/4 of the earth - that very 1/4 where the world wars have started and where as you said, the black plague hit TWICE, both times wiping out nearly 1/3 of the people.

This plague fits with what Jesus said about pestilences.

In REvelation the first chapter, in the Greek, John said, "I john, in THE tribuation..." This shows us that God considers the entire church age "tribulation." We love Jesus but the world hates Jesus - and so hates all believers.

AT some times, the church age has had great tribulation such as when John was living. It was so great, the Jewish church died out. Thank God the Gentile church survived and thrived!

It is my belief that at least some of the generation that saw Israel become a nation will still be alive to see the 70th week play out. The Pastor was right, one purpose of the rapture was so that we could escape His wrath.

The "tribulation" means the 70th week and will last for 7 years.

 

[iamlamad]

You have misread the verse. It says he comes in flaming fire to exact revenge, not that he uses flaming fire to exact revenge. Rev 19 says he uses a sword not fire.

The flaming fire is a reference to the lightning speed of his return:

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

In flaming fire is regarding Christ not the unsaved. Flaming means a flash and fire is specifically lightning according to the Strongs. So Christ comes In a flash of lightning to arrive and take vengeance (the sword of his mouth Rev 19) on the unsaved and that shouldn't be surprising because we were told that before:

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

This denotes the speed of his return like a flash of lightning. It has nothing to do with using fire or lightning against the unsaved. To think that is to misread the verses.


Just read Rev 19 where the battle is described and you will see ZERO fire or lightning used to kill anyone.

2Th 1:8 In A FLASH OF LIGHTNING taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:



2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

While this is the very next verse it is wrong to insert that this is "at the same time" as the previous verse. The return of Christ and the vengeance against those that know not God happens a long time before the "everlasting destruction".


2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

And this goes back to the second coming. If you think "in that day" means all these events happen on the same literal day you are misunderstanding the verses and we know that because of what Rev 19-20 present in detail.


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He comes so fast and brightly the use of lightning is used. He doesn't send down lightning bolts or anything. He comes in flaming fire not casts out flaming fire. The same exact thing is here:

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

It's about the speed because lightning was the fastest thing man knew of in those days. This essentially is "light speed" and is what this verse is talking about:

Barnes:

In flaming fire - This is a circumstance which is not noticed in the account of his appearing in the parallel place in 1Th_4:16. The object of the apostle here seems to be to represent him as coming amidst vivid flashes of lightning. He is commonly described as coming in clouds, and to that common description there is here added the image of incessant lightnings, as if the whole heavens were illuminated with a continued blaze.

You made some very good points!

 

[BABerean2]

You made some very good points!

Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

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[Biblewriter]

It is a departure from the faith. That's what the Greek word means. It does not nor cannot mean simply "traveling" elsewhere.

This is an error. The ancient Greek histories called certain Ethiopians who had moved from their original homeland to a new one, the "apostate" Ethiopians. So this Greek word was unquestionably sometimes used in regard to departing from a place.

 

[Biblewriter]

It seeks to alter a fixed definition of the Greek language in order to support a non-biblical doctrine. That is not what I call a "good read".

You are incorrect in thinking that "departure from a way of thinking" is a fixed definition for this Greek word. In its basic essence, the word only means departure, without ANY reference to what has been departed from.

I am not saying that what we call apostasy in the English language is not what was meant in the passage in question. I am only observing that this is most absolutely not the only sense in which the ancient Greeks used this word.

 

[Biblewriter]

As I read through this thread, I keep seeing a standard error found in almost all arguments against the doctrine of a pre-tribulation rapture. They are almost all based on the rank assumption that our Lord is only going to return one time. There is absolutely no scripture that states this. It is a rank assumption. But without it, most of the arguments for a post trib rapture simply collapse.

 

[ewq1938]

This is an error. The ancient Greek histories called certain Ethiopians who had moved from their original homeland to a new one, the "apostate" Ethiopians. So this Greek word was unquestionably sometimes used in regard to departing from a place.

The word does not mean to travel.

G646
ἀποστασία
apostasia
ap-os-tas-ee'-ah
Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”): - falling away, forsake.

 

[ewq1938]

As I read through this thread, I keep seeing a standard error found in almost all arguments against the doctrine of a pre-tribulation rapture. They are almost all based on the rank assumption that our Lord is only going to return one time. There is absolutely no scripture that states this. It is a rank assumption. But without it, most of the arguments for a post trib rapture simply collapse.

The bible states there is a single return left. Anything different from that is a "rank" error.

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

The first coming was when he was on the Earth, his second coming is literally the second time he returns. There is no secret coming between those two. A secret coming between the first and second was invented to support the idea of a pre-trib rapture. It is not scripturally supported and Paul succinctly destroys any pre-trib idea:

It only takes two verses to prove that pre-trib is a false doctrine.


1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: (the second coming) and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

Since the resurrection only happens at the second coming and that we have the rapture happening AFTER the resurrection and second coming means these two verses decisively prove the pre-trib rapture to be false.