The origin of the Pre-trib rapture theory? Paul himself?

[Billy Evmur]

Antichrist certainly comes first, not only so but he reigns, the great tribulation is this

"who opposeth everything called god"

That will be the most evil persecution ever against ALL religion but of course especially the church.

Not until he is seated in the temple declaring himself to be God does the Lord come and destroy that evil one.

The Rapture does not come until these things happen.

 

[Neogaia777]

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

He shouldn't even have to speak of these things because he would have told them in person when he was with them but for some reason he decides in fact to re-tell them this:

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


This is it. The idea that Christ could come suddenly without any warning before the tribulation and Antichrist etc is what started the Pre-trib concept. This one sentence will be misunderstood and the idea that Christ could come at any time, even before the tribulation happens, is born. The facts are that Christ cannot and will not just suddenly appear because there are major events that have to take place first before he arrives but those who are unsaved and spiritually blind won't know this and so the second coming will surprise them without warning as a thief in the night but not those who are awake and watching for the right signs.


1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


And this is the part that was missed or ignored. Christ only comes suddenly, without any warning to those who are deceived, in darkness, and are worshiping a false god in the tribulation. Christ's actual appearance will be sudden and shocking to them! But not to us!


1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night



So the confusion about Christ appearing suddenly at any moment reached Paul and he wrote a second letter to explain what he meant in the first one!


2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

He is saying DO NOT BE WORRIED THAT CHRIST CAN JUST SUDDENLY RETURN AND SURPRISE YOU!

Look at his words:

1. by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ

That is the second coming!

2. and by our gathering together unto him

That is the rapture!

3. that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Don't be worried that the second coming and the rapture "is at hand" meaning they could happen right away instead of after the tribulation as Christ said in the gospels.



2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

There are major things that happen first which will let the faithful know the return of Christ is soon! That is mainly the Tribulation and Apostasy where essentially the whole world, all religions and even Atheists, will believe in this person who will claim and seem to be God! I believe he will claim to be Jesus Christ leading so many astray.

So Paul has just said don't be worried that the second coming and rapture can happen before the tribulation and the Apostasy led by the Antichrist! IE: a pre-trib rapture is not true, right from the mouth of Paul himself.

2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?


Now he has to remind them...but some will never let go of this "any moment" doctrine that Christ can return suddenly to "rapture the Church away".

The Bible makes it clear that there is no pre-tribulation rapture. The tribulation and the appearance of the Antichrist will come first before any rapture takes place. Scripture speaks of the same order of events elsewhere:


1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Context is the second coming!

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Context is the second coming!

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the second coming!


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So, the proper order of events according to scripture:

1. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16) (this doesn't happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat_24:29)
2. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)
3. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)
This proves the pre-trib (and mid-trib) rapture to be false because the second coming comes after the tribulation not before or during it, Mat 24:29-30


A rapture before the tribulation is impossible according to Mat 24:29-30, and a rapture before the second coming is impossible according to 1Th 4:13-17.


So, the proper order of events according to scripture including Mat_24:29:

1. the great tribulation ends. (Mat_24:29)
2. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16, Mat_24:30)
3. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)
4. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)


Again we see that certain events must happen first before a rapture takes place!

I think the true tribulation (period) for true Christians begins before tribulation for the world... (and those belonging to the world and it's ways)... So, I guess you could say I have a pre-trib for the world, and mid-trib for the saints rapture theory...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

There is supposed to be a period of peace for the world and those belonging to the world and it's ways, and none of them are supposed to see it coming (the end), but there will be some of us who can are not only in a kind or torment or tribulation being burdened by it/them... (that the world is just "not")... Anyway, there will be some of us in tribulation before others or before the world experiences tribulation... Anyway, For those who do and can see it coming, have tried very hard to warn and help save those of, or and/or are belonging to the world and it's ways, but most don't hear it...

But the world and for the world it will be a time of great peace, or it is supposed to be, before it all goes south and goes under, and when it does is when the rapture happens, and those of us previously in torment or tribulation because of the world will be caught up to meet the Glorious Lord in the air, in the blink of an eye, and the lightning moves and flashes, no time to make other of any kind of other choices other than you were already making or were on currently at that, maybe split second in time...

Like a single frame of a picture spliced into a movie reel, it a blip, you know you saw it, maybe not clear exactly what it was, especially the first time, that you saw...? Then you soon forget about it and watch the rest of the film and get caught up the rest of the film and forget all about that dumb blip they saw, or thought they saw, and then they're not so sure, then they figure must have been a figment of their imagination and go on...

Only the movie is about to end and it's the last scene, but just try telling the world that...

Just some of my thoughts anyway...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

There is supposed to be a period of peace for the world and those belonging to the world and it's ways, and none of them are supposed to see it coming (the end), but there will be some of us who can are not only in a kind or torment or tribulation being burdened by it/them... (that the world is just "not")... Anyway, there will be some of us in tribulation before others or before the world experiences tribulation... Anyway, For those who do and can see it coming, have tried very hard to warn and help save those of, or and/or are belonging to the world and it's ways, but most don't hear it...

But the world and for the world it will be a time of great peace, or it is supposed to be, before it all goes south and goes under, and when it does is when the rapture happens, and those of us previously in torment or tribulation because of the world will be caught up to meet the Glorious Lord in the air, in the blink of an eye, and the lightning moves and flashes, no time to make other of any kind of other choices other than you were already making or were on currently at that, maybe split second in time...

Like a single frame of a picture spliced into a movie reel, it a blip, you know you saw it, maybe not clear exactly what it was, especially the first time, that you saw...? Then you soon forget about it and watch the rest of the film and get caught up the rest of the film and forget all about that dumb blip they saw, or thought they saw, and then they're not so sure, then they figure must have been a figment of their imagination and go on...

Only the movie is about to end and it's the last scene, but just try telling the world that...

Just some of my thoughts anyway...

God Bless!

Anyway, can you imagine what would happen to and with the world if half the population globally and worldwide was all the sudden all taken up at the same time, gone in a flash... It would devastate the entire world and plunge it into absolute chaos, and then, now would begin tribulation for them, the likes of which the world has never seen up to now...

With the way it is so interconnected and interdependent, half the populous disappearing would cripple it to say the least... It would be really, really bad at first, with the way people are today, but it would int time, get better, and hopefully there would be a handful of us left over to continue the species, hopefully...

God Bless!

 

[ewq1938]

Anyway, can you imagine what would happen to and with the world if half the population globally and worldwide was all the sudden all taken up at the same time, gone in a flash... It would devastate the entire world and plunge it into absolute chaos, and then, now would begin tribulation for them, the likes of which the world has never seen up to now...

The bible places the rapture/harpazo after the second coming and after the resurrection of the dead so the above scenario won't happen unless it's a faked one.

 

[Seville90210]

You have some pretty good arguments here actually, yet I still disagree there is a Pretrib or a Midtrib rapture. Maybe someone can go through all of your arguments with you one by one. I'm not up to the task atm(busy with things around the house), otherwise I would give it a go. For now though, I can at least try and address one of your arguments.

That's fine, we don't have to go into a lengthy dialogue about which rapture view is correct. I'm not planning to get into a long debate myself as it's very hard to get people to change their view on the rapture, so instead I rather just post scriptures with explanations and let them decide for themselves. However, I'll answer the questions you posted because them seem genuine.

Verse 38 is obviously referring to verse 36. Verse 36 is also referring to---This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled---Heaven and earth shall pass away

Do you also apply verse 36 and those things in verse 34 and 35, to a Pretrib or Midtrib rapture as well?

Yes, all the verses in Jesus' second parable from Matthew 24:32-51 correlate to one topic focusing solely on the rapture, nothing else.

Everything Jesus spoke of from Matthew 24:32-51 is solely about the rapture: how it'll happen, when it'll happen, who it'll affect, and the end result from what will happen.

Jesus gave His disciples two parables in the Olivet Discourse when they asked about the His return. The 1st parable is from Matthew 24:4-31 in Him revealing the signs leading up to the second coming. Keep in mind, His comings in the rapture and the second coming are two distinctly different events as shown in Matthew 24:37-39 vs Luke 21:25-27.

The 2nd parable begins in Matthew 24:32, a new parable. Here the emphasis is on the timing of Israel and only Israel, nothing else. Why is this important to know? It's because He's giving us clues of when the rapture and the start of the tribulation commences from the time when Israel became a nation again in 1948.

Matthew 24:32 New King James Version (NKJV)
32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near.​

In verse 33, the rapture and the tribulation will come not yet but shorty after all the signs He mentioned in the 1st parable.

Matthew 24:33 New King James Version (NKJV)
33 So you also, when you see all these things, know it is near—at the doors!​

Now verse 34 is the kicker and this verse has really stumped many readers. The word generation has several meanings, however in the bible Jesus is using the Psalm 90:10 definition of generation, which is 70 years. Many readers in error interpret this generation as a peer group of people in the first century. We know that interpretation is an error because Jesus never returned in the first century.

Basically what Jesus is telling us in verse 34 is all the signs He gave in the first parable will be fulfilled within 70 years from 1948 (The budding of the fig tree).

Matthew 24:34 New King James Version (NKJV)
34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.​

Verse 35 is the tribulation where the old heaven and earth will pass away. This begins shortly after a generation (70 years).

Matthew 24:35 New King James Version (NKJV)
35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
​

So now that Jesus has given us a ballpark time frame of when the rapture and the tribulation will come, sometimes after the 70 year mark, He continues letting us know the day and the hour can not be given - because He too doesn't know, only the Father. He cannot narrow the time frame down any further than sometimes after 70 years.

Matthew 24:36 New King James Version (NKJV)
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.​

This is a huge clue. That's what He meant by a generation.

For those heavily paying attention to Israel and the Middle East as He commanded us to be watchful of the signs to come before His return. One notable prophecy coming on the cusp of fulfillment is the peace treaty with Israel. Unlike past presidents, Donald Trump seems determined to get a peace deal done between Israel and the Palestinians.

Also, in verse 37----so shall also the coming of the Son of man be---this too is referring to verse 38, even says so in verse 39. But it's also referring to verse 36 and those things from verse 34 and 35 that I listed above.

Yes, verse 37 is His coming for His bride, the rapture of the church. It's all connected from verse 32 to verse 41 as He gives us the timing, just not the day and hour, of when He'll come for the church and start the tribulation.

Now here's something I didn't mentioned in my first post because I didn't want it getting too lengthy and lose readers attention, but focus on what He said from verses 37 to 39 because He's telling us the tribulation will starts at the rapture of the church.

Matthew 24:37-39 New King James Version (NKJV)
37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.​

Now if you read this carefully, Jesus is comparing the flood in Noah's time to the coming tribulation of our time.

The people during the time of Noah did not know what was about to happen to them. They went on their daily lives, eating, drinking, getting marry etc. It wasn't until they saw the flood come than they all realized they are in the tribulation.

Now once you're in the tribulation whether if you believe in the Mid Trib or Post Trib rapture, you know you're in the tribulation by all the chaos surrounding you happening on earth. Go to Luke 21:25-27. Here He describes people's behavior on earth during the second coming.

Luke 21:25-27 New King James Version (NKJV)
25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.​

At the second coming, people know what's coming and are fearful having heart attacks of things happening on earth. See the word expectation in verse 26? People know what's ahead. There are signs everywhere, Luke 21:25. This is a stark contrast to Matthew 24:39 where people did not know the flood was coming. No sign until the flood came.

In summary, Jesus is telling us He will come for the church when people are enjoying life (eating, drinking, marrying etc) and the rapture is the sign that starts the tribulation.

Because when the rapture hits, the whole world will know millions of Christians suddenly vanished around the globe ands will look for answers. Nobody on earth will not notice all the disasters that will strike when millions of vehicles around the world without drivers collide. They will look for answers and eventually conclude the biblical rapture is real. The rapture is the great sign to the world that starts the final 7 years.

39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

 

[BABerean2]

His comings in the rapture and the second coming are two distinctly different events as shown in Matthew 24:37-39 vs Luke 21:25-27.

Mat 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Mat 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Luk 21:24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
Luk 21:25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Luk 21:27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."

.

 

[Dave L]

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

He shouldn't even have to speak of these things because he would have told them in person when he was with them but for some reason he decides in fact to re-tell them this:

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


This is it. The idea that Christ could come suddenly without any warning before the tribulation and Antichrist etc is what started the Pre-trib concept. This one sentence will be misunderstood and the idea that Christ could come at any time, even before the tribulation happens, is born. The facts are that Christ cannot and will not just suddenly appear because there are major events that have to take place first before he arrives but those who are unsaved and spiritually blind won't know this and so the second coming will surprise them without warning as a thief in the night but not those who are awake and watching for the right signs.


1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


And this is the part that was missed or ignored. Christ only comes suddenly, without any warning to those who are deceived, in darkness, and are worshiping a false god in the tribulation. Christ's actual appearance will be sudden and shocking to them! But not to us!


1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night



So the confusion about Christ appearing suddenly at any moment reached Paul and he wrote a second letter to explain what he meant in the first one!


2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

He is saying DO NOT BE WORRIED THAT CHRIST CAN JUST SUDDENLY RETURN AND SURPRISE YOU!

Look at his words:

1. by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ

That is the second coming!

2. and by our gathering together unto him

That is the rapture!

3. that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Don't be worried that the second coming and the rapture "is at hand" meaning they could happen right away instead of after the tribulation as Christ said in the gospels.



2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

There are major things that happen first which will let the faithful know the return of Christ is soon! That is mainly the Tribulation and Apostasy where essentially the whole world, all religions and even Atheists, will believe in this person who will claim and seem to be God! I believe he will claim to be Jesus Christ leading so many astray.

So Paul has just said don't be worried that the second coming and rapture can happen before the tribulation and the Apostasy led by the Antichrist! IE: a pre-trib rapture is not true, right from the mouth of Paul himself.

2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?


Now he has to remind them...but some will never let go of this "any moment" doctrine that Christ can return suddenly to "rapture the Church away".

The Bible makes it clear that there is no pre-tribulation rapture. The tribulation and the appearance of the Antichrist will come first before any rapture takes place. Scripture speaks of the same order of events elsewhere:


1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Context is the second coming!

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Context is the second coming!

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the second coming!


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So, the proper order of events according to scripture:

1. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16) (this doesn't happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat_24:29)
2. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)
3. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)
This proves the pre-trib (and mid-trib) rapture to be false because the second coming comes after the tribulation not before or during it, Mat 24:29-30


A rapture before the tribulation is impossible according to Mat 24:29-30, and a rapture before the second coming is impossible according to 1Th 4:13-17.


So, the proper order of events according to scripture including Mat_24:29:

1. the great tribulation ends. (Mat_24:29)
2. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16, Mat_24:30)
3. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)
4. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)


Again we see that certain events must happen first before a rapture takes place!

“Now when this perishable puts on the imperishable, and this mortal puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will happen, “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” “Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?”” (1 Corinthians 15:54–55)

This proves the rapture takes place on the last day, not before 7 years of continuous death and destruction in a supposed tribulation.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

The idea that Christ could come suddenly without any warning before the tribulation lies here.

Jesus said no man knows the day or the hour of His coming in Matthew 24:36.

You have to understand this within a Jewish context...most do not

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

No one knows the hour...don't know the hour

For those who do not understand, will be unaware

 

[joshua 1 9]

The idea that Christ could come suddenly without any warning before the tribulation and Antichrist etc is what started the Pre-trib concept.

Paul talks about: "caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." The main point here is: "in the air". There is no mention at all of when His feet will touch the ground. Some people say He comes for His church moments before the tribulation begins and then He returns with His church or Bride after the tribulation when His feet touch the ground and then He will rule and reign here on Earth with His church for 1,000 years.

Zechariah 14:4 "On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south."

Acts 1:11 "This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Yes...it wasn't my pastor or the teaching from my Sunday school class that revealed this truth to me...because they taught the pre-trib rapture...it was when I was in my early 20's that I started reading the Bible for myself and before each reading I asked the Holy Spirit to bring revelation knowledge of it to my understanding....also would pray for the hidden wisdom of God....so when I read Revelation the Holy Spirit opened my eyes and I saw the truth...which He also lead me to study Daniel and Isaiah as well.....it just counters the whole concept of pre-trib rapture....I thank God for the Holy Spirit whom Jesus called the Spirit of Truth that He guides me and leads me into all truth.

you know that people on several sides of this debate have prayed those same prayers for God to bring His Holy Spirit into the knowledge and understanding of His word and God's will this argument may add points to your sincerity but has no merit in weather you are right or not. By the way this issue is all about the timing of the time when those alive are caught up in the air or really saying at some point there is a break in the normal routine that we all must die and then face God. The admonitions are the same throughout time for all of us and this should not be so much about being divisive but reminding each other to live our lives with this end in mind.

 

[BABerean2]

Zechariah 14:4 "On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south."

Rev_6:12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.

Rev_8:5 Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake.

Rev_11:13 In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Rev_11:19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.


Rev 16:15 "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame."
Rev 16:16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.
Rev 16:17 Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done!"
Rev_16:18 And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth.

.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Mat_21:19 And seeing a fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it but leaves, and said to it, "Let no fruit grow on you ever again." Immediately the fig tree withered away.

.

I think Stephen Anderson makes a similar argument. Just catching up on some of the YouTube channels I follow, I came across this...

 

[DavidPT]

Yes, all the verses in Jesus' second parable from Matthew 24:32-51 correlate to one topic focusing solely on the rapture, nothing else.

Everything Jesus spoke of from Matthew 24:32-51 is solely about the rapture: how it'll happen, when it'll happen, who it'll affect, and the end result from what will happen.

There's a chance I may not be clear about everything you said here, especially this part---"and the end result from what will happen". Not certain what you are meaning by this. My arguments below are based mainly on what you said here----"Everything Jesus spoke of from Matthew 24:32-51 is solely about the rapture".

I agree with you here that the focus of Matthew 24:32-51 is the rapture. But unlike you, I take the rapture and the 2nd coming to be referring to the same event though.

Since you indicated Matthew 24:32-51 involves the rapture, except in your view the rapture and the 2nd coming are not the same event, let's look at some of the context in those verses then.

Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

How does verse 47 get fulfilled if these are instead taken to heaven before the time of the GT? Verse 47 sounds like something that is fulfilled because of the 2nd coming, and not something that is fulfilled during an alleged rapture prior to the 2nd coming. How does He make these ruler over all their goods, in heaven? And why?


Matthew 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth .


How do you explain these verses if none of this involves the 2nd coming? The servants meant in verse 50 obviously would not get raptured, but instead, verse 51 will be their fate. Verse 51 is referring to judgment and being cast into the LOF. That can't happen until Christ at least returns first.

Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth .

This gives us the timing of Matthew 24:51. Matthew 13:41 can't occur before the 2nd coming though. As to Matthew 13:42, whether that is meaning at the 2nd coming, or a thousand years and little season after the 2nd coming, one thing is certain, none of these things can get fulfilled during an alleged rapture preceding the GT. And you already indicated Matthew 24:50-51 also involve this alleged rapture prior to the GT, yet I just showed with Matthew 13:41-42, that Matthew 24:50-51 has to involve the 2nd coming in order to be fulfilled.

 

[joshua 1 9]

earthquake

The earthquake takes place at the third coming at the end of the tribulation period. That could be sometimes in 2036. If you go by the comet. It is funny though because people do not even agree on what day of the year Jesus is going to return? Usually they go by the "Jewish" New Year date.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Usually they go by the "Jewish" New Year date.

because it is ALL within a Jewish context...

 

[BABerean2]

Usually they go by the "Jewish" New Year date.

Col 2:16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,
Col 2:17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

.

 

[BABerean2]

I think Stephen Anderson makes a similar argument. Just catching up on some of the YouTube channels I follow, I came across this...

Mat 3:9 and do not think to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.
Mat 3:10 And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.


Mat 21:37 Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.'
Mat 21:38 But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.'
Mat 21:39 So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.
Mat 21:40 "Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?"
Mat 21:41 They said to Him, "He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons."
Mat 21:42 Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: 'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED HAS BECOME THE CHIEF CORNERSTONE. THIS WAS THE LORD'S DOING, AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES' ?
Mat 21:43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.




Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "AND TO YOUR SEED," who is Christ.


The preacher in the video is attempting to make John Nelson Darby's doctrine work, by ignoring the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.


The New Covenant: Bob George

.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Col 2:16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,
Col 2:17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

What does that have anything to do with the subject at hand?