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Featured The origin of the Pre-trib rapture theory? Paul himself?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by ewq1938, Sep 9, 2018.

  1. Dave Watchman

    Dave Watchman Well-Known Member

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    I hate to say i don't agree with you. I do agree with you, but then i don't, not really. Like when you say:
    That would have sounded good to me in 2013. But now they look like they're here. Signs in the sun and in the moon and in the stars. The falling away is complete, and now culminated in 2015 with the man of sin taking his seat in the Temple of God claiming to be God. We are in the latter end of the kingdom of the rebels, they have become completely wicked. The 1290 days have begun, we are speeding toward the "darkened" sun. Working through the composite beast, he's saying unheard of things against the God of gods. By giving his power and his throne and great authority to the composite beast, he has enabled it's lion like mouth to blaspheme God and His dwelling place and those who live in Heaven.
    He already did. They already do. The majority of all people all over the world already believe in him. We're living in the days of the strong delusion. God gave them over, God gave them over, God gave them over. God gave them over to what? To a reprobate mind. They believe the lie. They do that which is not convenient. They worship the dragon because he gives his power to the composite beast. They don't even know it.

    They exchanged the truth of what God says to do for a lie, and worshiped the creature rather than the creator. Some people sense it. I see threads around like: "Are we in the end times?, or: "Has the tribulation started? It looks to me like we're at verse 11 of Revelation 13 waiting for the fire to fall from Heaven in the presence of men. Men's hearts failing them, distress of nations and the roaring of the sea. That day, those days, will catch most people like a thief.

    That could be one of the reasons Jesus was saying to watch. Jesus said to watch, i know we've heard it a million times. But He seemed to say it with an implied imperative. "What I say to you I say to all, watch! "If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.. I remember when i first read these instructions, it gives me a strange feeling. Like what am i supposed to be watching for? Will there be signs that are so subtle that they will be easily missed? Signs that could be overlooked due to our preconceptions? Signs that could be overlooked due to all of the false alarms?

    I know the Hal Lindsey story and the Tim Lahaye story. But i can also consider an alternative story that would have us much deeper into a Revelation matrix narrative that most people would NOT be able to accept. The Abomination, the holy place, Paul's man of sin and the seat of authority that he steals in the temple of the real God of gods. If i'm right about this, when the man of sin is finally revealed, he will have been in operative authority for the majority of his 42 months. The rest that concerns us will happen very fast over a period of a few months.

    Think about John the Baptist. Mary was running through the countryside to visit his mom Elizabeth. They knew something big was up. John B was great in the sight of the Lord. He never drank wine or other fermented drink, and he was filled with the Holy Spirit even before he was born. He wore a camel's hair suit and a leather belt and ate locusts for dinner.

    Jesus said that among men there was none greater than John the Baptist. But even he, John B, had to send people out to ask Jesus, "are you the one we are waiting for, or should we wait for another. So if this guy who Jesus said was the greatest born of women didn't know what was going on then, it doesn't surprise me that nobody knows what's going on right now.

    And they knew nothing until the flood came.

    New Living Translation
    People didn't realize what was going to happen

    English Standard Version
    And they were unaware

    Berean Study Bible
    And they were oblivious,

    New American Standard Bible
    And they did not understand

    King James Bible
    And knew not

    Christian Standard Bible
    They didn't know

    Contemporary English Version
    They didn't know anything was happening

    Good News Translation
    Yet they did not realize what was happening

    Holman Christian Standard Bible
    They didn't know

    International Standard Version
    They were unaware

    NET Bible
    And they knew nothing

    New Heart English Bible
    And they did not know

    Aramaic Bible in Plain English
    And they did not perceive

    GOD'S WORD® Translation
    They were not aware of what was happening

    New American Standard 1977
    And they did not understand

    American King James Version
    And knew not

    American Standard Version
    And they knew not

    Douay-Rheims Bible
    And they knew not

    Webster's Bible Translation
    And knew not

    Weymouth New Testament
    Nor did they realize any danger

    World English Bible
    And they didn't know

    Young's Literal Translation
    And they did not know

    Just like in the days of Noah.

    So shoot me another green comet and chase it with an asteroid both with perihelion's on this September 11, and i'll jump at the sound of a pin drop. I'm wound up tighter than a spring on an overloaded dodge ram. But after January 2019 i'm out of bullets. I got nothin'. All my signs will be out of gas by then, all the decrees to restore and to rebuild will be out of fuel, and i'll be looking to build a pole barn to store my junk trucks. No more banquet of trumpets for super dave. He'll be talking about himself in the third person narrative in the nut house.

    Or should we wait for another?
     
  2. Stone-n-Steel

    Stone-n-Steel Active Member Supporter

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    Consider this:

    x = y
    Then x2 = xy
    Subtract the same thing from both sides:
    x2 - y2 = xy - y2
    Dividing by (x-y), obtain
    x + y = y
    Since x = y, we see that
    2 y = y
    Thus 2 = 1, since we started with y nonzero.
    Subtracting 1 from both sides,
    1 = 0

    As you can see it is possible to manipulate math to come to a false conclusion. I think scripture works the same way. My considered opinion is that there is a "catching away" before the time clock of prophecy starts and Jacobs trouble begins.
     
  3. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    None of the signs given in scripture telling us the 2nd coming is near have happened yet. If the man of sin was here and in power and the Apostasy happened, we wouldn't even be able to talk about any of this. It will be global news not something only you and maybe a handful of other believe happened in 2015....the real man of sin and what he does will be the biggest thing in human history, for everyone on the planet.
     
  4. Dave Watchman

    Dave Watchman Well-Known Member

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    I don't think we're going to see Hal's Antichrist from the 70's wearing bell bottoms and a polyester leisure suit sitting in a rebuilt temple.

    I'm fairly sure Paul was drawing from Isaiah 14 and Matthew 23 when he was talking about the "man" of sin. Is this the "man" that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms?

    "so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

    "so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God

    "so that he sets himself up in God's temple,

    "So he will seat himself in the temple of God,​

    He will "seat himself".

    In Matthew 23, Jesus said:

    "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat"

    "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses"​

    They have "seated themselves".

    In the chair of Moses.

    Moses was the teacher of the Law, the Word of God. He was long gone when Jesus said this so the Scribes and the Pharisees had really just taken over Moses' job or his "seat", which was Moses' place of authority in the Temple of God. The scribes and the pharisees didn't take a literal seat. They had taken over Moses' job, his seat of authority, of dictating the Law.

    Our end time Antichrist, Paul's "man" of sin, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, has attempted to take over God's job by influencing the shift in morality and the trend in increased lawlessness. "Anti" can also mean "in place of".

    God said: "Remember the Sabbath", "You shall not murder", "You shall not commit adultery" and "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination".

    Antichrist says: you can forget about the Sabbath, legalize pornography, legalize abortion, legalize same sex marriage and feel free to have a gender modification.

    When the "man" of Sin seeks to change these specific times and these particular Laws, he by default has magnified himself above all that is called God or is worshiped and has set himself up in God's "seat" of authority in God's Temple thereby claiming to BE God. Lucifer has accomplished this by giving his power and his throne and his great authority to the composite beast.

    "Worship" comes from the word "proskuneo" and can also mean to "submit to" or "to obey". And he has been at work on this for a long time using various human agents but make no mistake it has been the dragon's hand inside the glove.

    There's been too many signs that have occurred that are not replaceable in time. They will never happen again. Kingdom against kingdom. WW1, WW2 and 1948 + 70. Seven sets of 70 weeks since the Exodus in 1437 BC that ended in 1994 with Comet Shoemaker Levy 9, Suleiman's 1535 decree lining up 62 weeks latter with the Knesset decree in 1969 + 49, the third moon of our tetrad picking up 21 years after Jupiter was hit 21 times in 1994. The Revelation 12 sign confirms the tetrads by pointing to a conjunction of Jupiter and Venus which marks out the last 420 days of the 1260 until the "darkened" sun.

    But it's the Abomination standing where it ought not to be exactly 1290 days before a "darkened" sun and a moon that will not give her light that makes me so sure. That one's pretty hard to fake, even for a dragon empowered composite beast.

    1) The Netherlands (2000)
    2) Belgium (2003)
    3) canada (2005)
    4) Spain (2005)
    5) South Africa (2006)
    6) Norway (2009)
    7) Sweden (2009)
    8) Argentina (2010)
    9) Iceland (2010)
    10) Portugal (2010)
    11) Denmark (2012)
    12) Brazil (2013)
    13) England and Wales (2013)
    14) France (2013)
    15) New Zealand (2013)
    16) Uruguay (2013)
    17) Luxembourg (2014)
    18) Scotland (2014)
    19) Finland: (signed 2015, effective 2017)
    20) Ireland: (2015)
    21) United States: (2015)<-------1290------->Sun/Moon
    =
    21) United States: (2015)<-------1290------->End of these Wonders


    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2018
  5. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Not the same thing, not related. Do you know what the temple of God is according to the NT? That's where the man of sin shall be sitting. That causes the falling away from the true God.
     
  6. Dave Watchman

    Dave Watchman Well-Known Member

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    In that case, i wouldn't worry about it if i were you.

    Are you worried about it? I wouldn't be.

    It looks like you've got it the wrong way anyway.

    The rebellion comes FIRST, -> and then the man of lawlessness is revealed.

    "For that day will not come,
    unless the rebellion comes first,
    and the man of lawlessness is revealed,


    "And at the latter end of their kingdom,
    when the transgressors have reached their limit,
    a king of bold face, one who understands riddles, shall arise.


    "In the latter part of their reign,
    when rebels have become completely wicked,
    a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise.

    "At the end of their rule,
    when their sin is at its height,
    a fierce king, a master of intrigue, will rise to power.


    The rebellion comes first, then a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise. The rebels, the rebellion has been a long time coming. It's too big to describe. It's been lifetimes in the making. We are living in the latter part of their reign. The rebels have become completely wicked. The stern faced king is near. The composite beast is watching.

    Transgressors have reached their limit. Notice a Divine limit to transgression. This is not talking about a specific nation or kingdom, but instead is referring to the prevailing number or group of world wide transgressing individuals. We are now living at the latter end of the kingdom of the transgressors when they have reached and exceeded their "limit". And they've been given a strong delusion, given over to reprobate minds.

    Calling good evil, and evil good.

    Having a form of godliness,
    but denying the power thereof.
     
  7. Blade

    Blade Veteran Supporter

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    Well the 1st people Paul wrote to thought Jesus came and they missed Him. So.. they were watching waiting looking THEN. Nothing has changed.. we should look be ready for Christ TODAY not tomorrow in a day we were never promised. HAHA.. as if we ask Him and whats HE going to say? There is no tomorrow with God.. He's out side of time. So.. best be ready NOW..
     
  8. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    They did not think that. They thought Jesus could show up any time which was wrong and why Paul spoke against such a thought.
     
  9. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    I'm just curious... What was wrong about it...? Are you saying it's somehow wrong now...?
     
  10. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It's always been wrong which is why Paul spoke against it in that second letter.
     
  11. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    And what was/is wrong about it...?
     
  12. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Listen to what Paul says:

    1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    Context is the second coming!

    1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

    Context is the second coming!

    1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    This is the second coming!


    1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


    This is the rapture! The Greek word for rapture is harpazo and that's the term used by Paul!

    So, the proper order of events according to scripture:

    1. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16) (this doesn't happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat_24:29)
    2. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)
    3. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)
    This proves the pre-trib (and mid-trib) rapture to be false because the second coming comes after the tribulation not before or during it, Mat 24:29-30

    So, the second coming happens and then the resurrection and then the rapture, all after the trib has ended.


    A rapture before the tribulation is impossible according to Mat 24:29-30, and a rapture before the second coming is impossible according to 1Th 4:13-17.


    So, the proper order of events according to scripture including Mat_24:29:

    1. the great tribulation ends. (Mat_24:29)
    2. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16, Mat_24:30)
    3. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)
    4. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)

    I use the only verse in which the word rapture is even used! The order of events is given as second coming first, then the resurrection of the dead in Christ and lastly the rapture of the living Christians. None of those three things happen until the tribulation has ended.

    Christ does not return before the trib has ended.

    The resurrection does not happen before the trib has ended.

    The rapture does not happen before the trib has ended.

    No other scripture contradicts the order and timing that Paul wrote about.


    Only 1Th 4:16-17 tells us the order of events and when the rapture happens.



    The church is never removed from the Earth and taken to Heaven. In fact Christ, the saints, the angels, new Jerusalem and eventually even God the Father himself will leave heaven to be upon the Earth with the Church. Claiming the church is removed goes against everything we scripturally know about the future.


    2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
    2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.


    Do not be confused about the return of Christ or OUR gathering to Him (the rapture), that it can happen at any moment because it will NOT happen at any moment. Paul is speaking about the Church and when Christ comes for her.

    The doctrine of the pre-trib rapture states that Christ can secretly return at "any moment" yet Paul is clear to rebuke that doctrine saying not to believe anyone who claims that.


    "nor by letter as from us"

    Paul mentions even a former letter of his, because of a confusing statement he made concerning Christs return, the very verses that today's pre-tribbers use errantly:



    1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.



    Paul said it was misunderstood then, and it is still being misunderstood to this very day. Pauls second letter to the Thessalonians was meant to clear up any confusion which apparently was not successful.




    2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    Don't let anyone, even a fellow Christian deceive you otherwise! Christ's return SHALL NOT COME until the Apostasy happens FIRST. The Apostasy is when Christians stop worshipping Christ and start worshipping the antichrist. Christ will not return until that terrible thing happens, and not until the man of sin is revealed.

    Paul speaks of a single return of Christ, not a two stage return. Again, Paul writes "Let no man deceive you by any means" so be sure that no man does.




    Luke 21:36
    Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.



    Not a literal escape as in leaving bodily...we can "escape" the delusion and deception by having the truth in us.


    1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.


    To bear it means to endure it!


    The escape is NOT to literally be taken away...but God makes a way for you to BEAR the burden of temptation and deal with it, thereby overcoming and escaping it.




    Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

    We only escape the "temptation" of that hour...we don't escape the earth or any such thing.

    Did Christ run and hide when satan tempted him for 40 days? Was Christ raptured out or did Christ face satan and escape the temptations satan brought forth? He escaped unharmed by enduring and bearing the temptation period! So will we!



    1 Peter 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
    1 Peter 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

    We aren't going to literally escape the tribulation or this trial but we are meant to endure it.




    2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

    That gathering is what is called the rapture, when Christ comes for the "church" and gathers them up. Paul is BESEECHING you to listen to him.



    2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.


    He says NOT to be "shaken in mind" or confused, or troubled at all about it, that it is "at hand", not even letting a letter from Paul himself (the 1st letter to the Thess.) confuse you as to when the "rapture" happens.



    To be "at hand" means at any time it could happen. Do not be confused that the rapture can happen anytime soon or at "any moment", because there are two things that have to happen first BEFORE the "rapture" happens. The first thing is the Apostasy, which is the tribulation period when the AC is worshipped by Christians and the whole world. The second thing that must happen is that the Ac must be revealed as having been that "man of sin" who we know is satan. The world must be made to understand that the AC had really been satan all along BEFORE the "rapture" happens.


    Mark 13:24 But in those days, **after that tribulation**, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
    Mark 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
    Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
    Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall **gather together his elect** from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

    This is why Christ spoke of the "rapture" of the elect as happening "after that tribulation".
     
  13. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    OK, thanks...

    God Bless!
     
  14. Seville90210

    Seville90210 Psalm 118:26

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    Yeah I intentionally let that out because I didn't want to post a reply on something you didn't specifically asked a question about and focus solely on the ones you did. The second reason was I don't want to make my posts too lengthy as I will lose other reader's attention.

    So here's the final part of the second parable of the Discourse. And as I said in a previous post, this is "the end result" of the rapture described in the second parable.

    Matthew 24:45-51 King James Version (KJV)
    45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
    46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
    47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
    48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
    49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
    50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
    51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    Matthew 24:45-51 is about those Christians who either make the rapture and get rewarded and promoted during the Bema Seat in heaven. And those who don't make the rapture will be left behind to endure the tribulation. That's what the weeping and gnashing of teeth refers to. Not to be confused with the weeping and gnashing of teeth in Matthew 13:41-42, which is a parable about the second coming when Christ will destroy the wicked and send them to hell which Jesus figuratively calls the furnace in this verse.



    They're being rewarded and also given promotions at the Bema Seat in heaven. They will reign on earth, not in heaven. Those Christians who get promoted at the Bema Seat won't be exercising their new power and authority to rule on earth till we return back to earth at the end of the tribulation to reign with Him. That's why other parts of the bible say "and they reign with Christ for 1000 years."

    Those in the rapture and those in Revelation 20:4 will be assisting Jesus to change the world during the entire millennium till Christ puts all authorities under His rule. It's the earth that needs fixing, not heaven. Our job with Christ will be to transform or in another word, help Him sanctify the world - the process of sanctification and transform everyone on earth from one that's carnal and sinful minded to one that's holy and righteous, so at the end of the millennium, God will once again be able to dwell with man just as He did in the garden before sin came along. It's because God and sin cannot coexist.

    That's what Peter meant by "we're looking for a NHNE, one that's filled with righteousness." A world unlike the one we're in now where sin and carnality reigns.

    2 Peter 3:13 New King James Version (NKJV)
    Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.



    You're on the right track. Remembers they're parables so you can't take everything literal. The main purpose of parables is the message behind the parables. Here Jesus tells us that if a Christians does not endure till the end and begins to backslide or fall away by being wicked, sinful or lawless, he will be left behind when the rapture hits.

    So in this parable, the faithful Christian will go to heaven and got rewarded and promoted while the other stays on earth to endure the tribulation, not the LOF. The LOF is a separate judgment still 1000 years away.


    Yeah, Matthew 13:41-42 is part of the second coming during the tribulation, not the rapture that happens before the tribulation - or more accurately the event that starts the tribulation.

    Is all this making sense? Ask more questions if you need. However, I have a question. Are there any particular verses causing you to believe in the Post Trib rapture you can share so I can have look at it and give you my perspective.

    The reason why I'm asking is because many Post Tribbers are inaccurately misinterpreting scriptures they claim shows a post trib rapture. An example is Matthew 24:29-31.

    Matthew 24:29-31 King James Version (KJV)
    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    This is not the rapture. The elects here are being gathered from heaven, not earth.
     
  15. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    In Revelation 20 it mentions only two resurrections, the first resurrection, and the 2nd one being when the rest of the dead live again after the thousand years. With that in mind----



    1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
    15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


    them which are asleep----this is meaning people who are physically dead.

    them also which sleep in Jesus---this is meaning the saved of the physically dead.

    and the dead in Christ shall rise first---this is the physical resurrection of the saved of the physically dead. The text indicates they rise first, followed by the rapture.

    Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.



    Them who sleep in Jesus either have to rise when those in verse 4 and 6 do, or when those in verse 5 do. If it's the former, this indicates there are no more resurrections until the thousand years have finished first. One is to believe that when Christ returns, that being the 2nd coming, there will be no resurrections from the dead at that time?

    The first resurrection can't occur at the 2nd coming if it already occurred earlier before the time of the GT. The resurrection of the rest of the dead also can't occur at the 2nd coming since it occurs a thousand years and a little season later. That leaves zero resurrections occurring at the 2nd coming if Post Trib is not true.

    Do you then agree, since this is the logical conclusion if your position is correct, that there will be no resurrections of the dead when Christ initially returns? If you disagree, which resurrection will it be then since it can't be either of the two mentioned in Revelation 20?
     
  16. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Ahem...some of you are wrong about the resurrections we read in Revelation 20.

    I actually did explain my views before, though I'll try to elaborate if that's what anyone wants. The First and the Second resurrection are actually two distinct resurrections of different types. At least that's what I see in scripture.

    1st resurrection consists of all the elect, as they are all the first born from the dead, having been raised up with Christ (who is the First Resurrection, Himself). That means any and ALL believers have part in His First Resurrection.

    Colossians 2:12
    • "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."
    Clearly, we are risen with Him in His First Resurrection, and so it is Biblically untenable to claim that this Resurrection is not the first. Why?

    Colossians 1:18
    • "And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."
    That's why they are believers precisely "because" they have been raised up in Christ. That 1st resurrection is what put all those souls you read of in Revelation chapter 20 in heaven reigning with Christ. These souls were able to live and reign with Christ because of being in the 1st resurrection.

    Acts 26:23
    • "That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles."
    Very Literally in the Greek "The First Resurrected" from the Dead. Therefore, it is untenable to claim that those risen with Christ are not the First Resurrection. Therefore, are they the only First Resurrection (as there is only one First) of the dead delivered from the wrath of God. This only apply to those who experienced being born again, which is the first resurrection in Christ!

    1st Thessalonians 1:10
    • "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."
    So then, the "rest of the dead" (who don't have a part in this First Resurrection) are raised up at the second Resurrection.

    2nd Resurrection: But the "rest" of the dead are not raised up in Christ, so they "BY DEFINITION" cannot have a part in the FIRST resurrection that enables the souls of the saints to live with Christ. Thus when the UNSAVED (The Rest of the dead) die, their souls, not having been resurrected in Christ, don't go to live and reign with Him in heaven like the souls of those saved do. They remain in death, the silence of nothingness until the second resurrection at the "LAST DAY" (John 7:37)

    Psalms 115:17-18
    • "The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
    • But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore. Praise the LORD."
    Here we see the existence of the souls of the elect who die but will bless the Lord forevermore (living and reigning with Christ) versus the dead (rest of the dead) who this verse tells us cannot praise the Lord as they go down into silence. They will know nothing. They will feel nothing. They will remember nothing. Their souls will not go anywhere as they await the second resurrection, where they will face the Warth that the saints have been delivered from in the First Resurrection.

    Psalm 94:17
    • "Unless the LORD had been my help, my soul had almost dwelt in silence."
    These souls who are "the rest of the dead" do not live, they cannot speak, they cannot hear because they have no conscious existence until they are raised up from that death in what is this second Resurrection. That is when "these" souls will face the wrath of God for their sins.

    ...You follow?

    Here is step by step:

    First Death = Spiritual Death, thanks to Adam and Eve, bringing the unrealized wrath of God on mankind.
    First Resurrection = Being born again from Spiritual Death through Christ who is THE First Resurrection to avoid the Wrath of God and live Forever with God.
    Second Resurrection = Raised up from physical Death to stand for Judgment on the Last Day
    Second Death = Spiritual Death, if not found being born again with Christ, in the Lake of Fire...Forever.
     
  17. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    I'm getting ready to submit a new thread in regards to the resurrections in Revelation 20. The title of the thread will be---"and the dead in Christ shall rise first". Getting ready to post it any moment now.
     
  18. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What's wrong with this thread?
     
  19. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Who recorded both the passage below, and the Book of Revelation?


    Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
    (What would you call it when a person is passed from death to life?)


    Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
    Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
    Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.



    Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

    .
     
  20. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    This thread isn't about the resurrection, it's about the rapture, isn't it? But I did bring up the resurrection though, but only to try and make a point. But I didn't bring it up in order to try and derail this thread and turn the focus towards the resurrection rather than the rapture. So IMO another thread seemed like a better idea.
     
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