The New “No Straw Man” challenge

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,012
25,179
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,718,556.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Are you serious? Do you want me to start in Genesis and quote every place God claims people are disobedient to him? I can't make a post that long.
I was hoping you’d show where He couldn’t prevent them from doing so.
 
Upvote 0

renniks

Well-Known Member
Jun 2, 2008
10,682
3,445
✟149,430.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Thanks. That’s clearer. So then God could intervene, but chooses not to sometimes, correct?
6In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did what was right in his own eyes.

That pretty much sums up the majority of human history. Again, to prove what you say about God controlling everything, you have to prove that what they did in every case was actually caused by God's decrees.
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,012
25,179
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,718,556.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
6In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did what was right in his own eyes.

That pretty much sums up the majority of human history. Again, to prove what you say about God controlling everything, you have to prove that what they did in every case was actually caused by God's decrees.
That doesn’t answer the question. I know that God allowed it. The question is, could He have prevented it?
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,012
25,179
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,718,556.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Lol, I never said he couldn't. More twisting of words.
So He could, then. If you agree with that, then you agree that He’s completely sovereign over all events.
 
Upvote 0

renniks

Well-Known Member
Jun 2, 2008
10,682
3,445
✟149,430.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
That doesn’t answer the question. I know that God allowed it. The question is, could He have prevented it?
Apparently, not, and still have the type of world that this one is, a world where people can choose God or Satan, good or evil. See, this is not heaven yet, this isn't the new earth where God's rule is complete. He reigns until all his enemies are under his feet. That hasn't happened yet.
 
Upvote 0

renniks

Well-Known Member
Jun 2, 2008
10,682
3,445
✟149,430.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So He could, then. If you agree with that, then you agree that He’s completely sovereign over all events.
Of course God is sovereign. But not according to the all determining definition of sovereign used by high Calvinists.
 
Upvote 0

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,944
11,098
okie
✟214,996.00
Faith
Anabaptist
Apparently, not, and still have the type of world that this one is, a world where people can choose God or Satan, good or evil. See, this is not heaven yet, this isn't the new earth where God's rule is complete. He reigns until all his enemies are under his feet. That hasn't happened yet.
Just like if He Prevented Judas from betraying Him,
it would have foiled His Own Plan.

He Easily Could have called a hundred thousand angels , yet chose not to.
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,012
25,179
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,718,556.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Apparently, not, and still have the type of world that this one is, a world where people can choose God or Satan, good or evil. See, this is not heaven yet, this isn't the new earth where God's rule is complete. He reigns until all his enemies are under his feet. That hasn't happened yet.
So like I said, you believe God is powerless to stop certain acts of men.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,012
25,179
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,718,556.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Of course God is sovereign. But not according to the all determining definition of sovereign used by high Calvinists.
With your view, He’s not sovereign over much. But it’s not your view they concerns this thread.

BTW, thanks for basically staying on topic.
 
Upvote 0

renniks

Well-Known Member
Jun 2, 2008
10,682
3,445
✟149,430.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
With your view, He’s not sovereign over much. But it’s not your view they concerns this thread.

BTW, thanks for basically staying on topic.
Not so, again you misunderstand what sovereignty is. Is God subject to his power so that he has to constantly use it? The idea that God has to control everything, in order to succeed in the end, makes him less sovereign, not more.
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,012
25,179
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,718,556.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Not so, again you misunderstand what sovereignty is. Is God subject to his power so that he has to constantly use it? The idea that God has to control everything, in order to succeed in the end, makes him less sovereign, not more.
One last time (hopefully). If God can stop something from happening, murder for instance, and does not stop it, He has a reason.
 
Upvote 0

renniks

Well-Known Member
Jun 2, 2008
10,682
3,445
✟149,430.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Says your human reasoning... God doesn't think like we do. And that really is not important to the topic. You have not shown that God is all controlling.
One last time (hopefully). If God can stop something from happening, murder for instance, and does not stop it, He has a reason.
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,012
25,179
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,718,556.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Says your human reasoning... God doesn't think like we do. And that really is not important to the topic. You have not shown that God is all controlling.
Yes I have. Repeatedly.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,012
25,179
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,718,556.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
In the day of prosperity be happy,
But in the day of adversity consider⁠—
God has made the one as well as the other
So that man will not discover anything that will be after him.
— Ecclesiastes 7:14
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Butch5

Newbie
Supporter
Apr 7, 2012
8,932
767
62
Homer Georgia
Visit site
✟308,497.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I did this in General Theology a few years ago because of some of the discussions going on. I thought I’d try it here to see how it goes.


As usual, Reformed Theology is misrepresented by what folks think is being taught. Generally, it’s not accurate, though I’m sure it’s well-intentioned. I’m sure I made some of the same arguments myself.

So here's the challenge. Below you will find links to some various documents that those who hold to Reformed Theology will agree on, at least soteriologically. The challenge is to quote from one of them, and then state why you believe it is incorrect. This will hopefully lead to a reasoned discussion. Any argument that does not start this way will be considered off topic. You are, however, free to start your own thread on that matter.

Here are your links.

The 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith (I would have used the Westminster Confession, but I'm Baptist :))

Canons of Dordt

Heidelberg Catechism

Institutes of the Christian Religion, John Calvin, Christian Classics Books, Bible Study

Please respect what’s being asked. If you cannot, then just post elsewhere. Thanks.

ETA. Since this is now in Soteriology, let’s stick to that.

Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.

Since sin is a thing, it is a logical contradiction to say that God ordained all things yet didn't ordain sin.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: FreeGrace2
Upvote 0