The New “No Straw Man” challenge

[Hammster]

If a mother neglects her child then she both causes and allows her daughter to be orphaned, but in different senses. When two things are contradictory--such as causing and allowing are--it means that they cannot both be present in the same respect. So if you think God both actively reprobates and merely passes over, you would have to show how he does each in a different respect.

In the case of the mother we could say that she allows malnourishment to occur by neglecting her duty to feed her daughter. She is not the direct cause of malnourishment. The direct cause is the nature of bodily metabolism absent food.

Responsibility is a larger issue than our previous discussion. That said, the issue of responsibility is appropriate to our larger topic, because many see the Calvinistic God as analogous to the neglectful mother. They would say that as the child, unable to feed itself, necessarily dies without the aid of the mother, just so with the reprobate in relation to the Calvinistic God.

I don’t think He actively reprobates, but passively passes over (just to get back on track). But I can see where shades of both can be seen as in the verses I presented.

 

[renniks]

Is there anything that happens that God has no control over? In other words, is there something He’s not sovereign over?

God never claimed to control everything. That's a human idea of what sovereignty means. God doesn't control our evil thoughts for example.

 

[Hammster]

God never claimed to control everything. That's a human idea of what sovereignty means. God doesn't control our evil thoughts for example.

Do you believe that He is incapable of intervening?

 

[renniks]

Do you believe that He is incapable of intervening?

Of course not. As Balky would say "Don't be ridiculous!" God can do what he wants, as long as it's not something that violates his character. That doesn't mean he has to control everything, and scripture is quite clear that he doesn't take responsibility for man's sinful actions.

 

[Hammster]

Of course not. As Balky would say "Don't be ridiculous!" God can do what he wants, as long as it's not something that violates his character. That doesn't mean he has to control everything, and scripture is quite clear that he doesn't take responsibility for man's sinful actions.

There’s no one arguing that He takes responsibility for sinful actions. But His actions and inactions are still Him being in control of everything.

Take the fall for example. There were multiple things God could have done to prevent it, and there were things that God did so that it would happen.

Complete control and ordained.

 

[renniks]

Take the fall for example. There were multiple things God could have done to prevent it, and there were things that God did so that it would happen.

Wow, that's beyond the pale. There's nothing in scripture to indicate God ordained the fall of man.

 

[renniks]

There’s no one arguing that He takes responsibility for sinful actions. But His actions and inactions are still Him being in control of everything.

Goblygook. Full control means just that, that he would control every sinful action ever. It would make him the only real sinner. God would be the rapist, murderer, thief and child molester, and people only his puppets.

 

[Hammster]

Goblygook. Full control means just that, that he would control every sinful action ever. It would make him the only real sinner. God would be the rapist, murderer, thief and child molester, and people only his puppets.

Can God stop every rape, murder, theft and child molestation?

 

[Hammster]

Wow, that's beyond the pale. There's nothing in scripture to indicate God ordained the fall of man.

Outside of the fact that it happened, you certainly mean. Let me see if I can help.

Things God did. One, He created Satan. Two, He made the tree. Three, He gave a law.

Things He didn’t do. He didn’t stop Satan from tempting. He didn’t stop Eve from eating. There’s certainly more, but this makes my point.

 

[renniks]

Can God stop every rape, murder, theft and child molestation?

I see where your going, but that's not the question here. You said God controls everything. He doesn't.

 

[renniks]

Outside of the fact that it happened, you certainly mean. Let me see if I can help.

Things God did. One, He created Satan. Two, He made the tree. Three, He gave a law.

Things He didn’t do. He didn’t stop Satan from tempting. He didn’t stop Eve from eating. There’s certainly more, but this makes my point.

No it doesn't. You have to prove God ordained and rendered certain the fall. That's like saying the sheriff committed a crime because he enforces the law. Or the architect robbed his house because he built it.

 

[Hammster]

I see where your going, but that's not the question here. You said God controls everything. He doesn't.

He’s in control of everything.

Here’s the quote.

“God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree."

 

[Hammster]

No it doesn't. You have to prove God ordained and rendered certain the fall. That's like saying the sheriff committed a crime because he enforces the law. Or the architect robbed his house because he built it.

That’s not even close to the same thing. So let me ask...what could God have done to stop sin?

 

[renniks]

He’s in control of everything.

Here’s the quote.

“God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree."

Yeah I've heard the quote multiple times... The scriptures that are used to back it up don't say God is all controlling.

 

[Hammster]

Yeah I've heard the quote multiple times... The scriptures that are used to back it up don't say God is all controlling.

Maybe not. But I’ve shown how He is, and you’ve not refuted it.

 

[renniks]

That’s not even close to the same thing. So let me ask...what could God have done to stop sin?

Well, using human reasoning to try to understand the mind of God is a bad idea, so even going there is kind of pointless. What we need to do and look at the facts as told by scripture. God gave the Angels free will... And did the same with men. To suppose he did it to cause sin, is to turn God into something worse that Satan.

 

[Hammster]

Well, using human reasoning to try to understand the mind of God is a bad idea, so even going there is kind of pointless. What we need to do and look at the facts as told by scripture. God gave the Angels free will... And did the same with men. To suppose he did it to cause sin, is to turn God into something worse that Satan.

Your avoidance of answering says it all.

 

[renniks]

Maybe not. But I’ve shown how He is, and you’ve not refuted it.

You have not even come close. You just made claims with no scriptural backup.

 

[renniks]

Your avoidance of answering says it all.

If I was to use human reasoning, I would suppose that the only way God could have avoided sin being a possibility was to make us robots. The ironic thing is, calvinists basically claim he did make us robots, which makes God the only sinner. If God was really controlling everything, it seems pretty obvious to anyone who really considers it, that his perfect will would always be done and this world to be paradise.

 

[Hammster]

You have not even come close. You just made claims with no scriptural backup.

Well, either God is sovereign over all, or He’s not. You seem to believe that He’s not, so I doubt I can convince you with scripture.

But here’s one with God being sovereign over sin.


this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
— Acts 2:23

Here is God, by His plan and foreknowledge, ensuring that men commit a sinful act for His glory.

Also, in the OT


As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.
— Genesis 50:20