the Mark of the Beast, Daniel's 70th week, and Pastor Bill Macgregor

[Douggg]

So, in your view, how much time could pass between the rapture "and when the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God"? Any amount of time? Or is there a limit (if so, what is it)?

In general, the rapture will take place before the parable of the fig tree generation passes away. The forums rules prevent me from saying anything further.

If it's any amount of time is that what you really believe, that there could be a long time between the rapture "and when the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God"?

Could be.

But how far into the future do you think Putin and the Russians team up with the muslims (Gog/Magog) to attack Israel? The Antichrist committing his act will be about (not enough information to be more exact) three years after that.

Between now and the Antichrist committing his Transgression of Desolation act, the rapture will take place.

 

[Douggg]

You really cannot figure out 42 months is 3.5 years, yet you claim a 7 year tribulation with a half way point? You do know half of 7 is 3.5?

There is a half way point of 1260 days. But that is really not the issue of your not being clear.

Satan is in control for 42 months. Some Amil want that to be Satan's little season, then a Second Coming.

Revelation 13 actually says the beast rules for 42 months. Which the beast receives power from Satan.

I do agree with you that the Amil position about the 42 months is wrong.

But Armageddon is not the Second Coming.

The purpose of the kings of the earth gathering their armies at Armageddon is to stop Jesus's Second Coming, from Him executing judgment on them and all responsible for martyring the great tribulation saints.

Every one knows when Armageddon happens, to bring an end to those 42 months along with the 7 vials of God's wrath on Satan's government, described as Babylon and the religious harlot. Satan and the FP.

Jesus ends the 42 months rule of the beast at Jesus's Second Coming in Revelation 19, by having the beast and false prophet cast alive into the lake of fire, and Satan into the bottomless pit.

The seven vials of God's wrath are spread across approximately the final quarter of the seven years.

Do you think the 7 vials of God's wrath is the sign of the Second Coming, and the church is raptured in the midst of the 7 vials? That is the order of the events leading up to Revelation 19.

The 7 vials of God's wrath, as they are occurring, would be an indication that Jesus's Second Coming is rapidly approaching. But the sign of Jesus's Second Coming will be the sixth seal event, the sign of the Son of Man in heaven - 45 days before Jesus Returns down to this earth.

The rapture will take place years before the 7 vials of God's wrath take place.

Think about Matthew 24. You have the Aod for 3.5 years, then you want there to be no Satan during a time of the greatest tribulation? How can you have Satan in control for 42 months, and then no one in control for the next 42 months? Even you have to put the tribulation first, and then go back to the AoD, and then leap frog over the Tribulation, to the Second Coming.

The Aod for 1335 days (Daniel 12:11-12). Satan will be cast down to earth for the remaining time/time/half time of those 1335 days. The time/times/half time will be a little bit less than 1260 days to account for the war in the 2nd heaven time.

For that time/times/half period, Satan will possess that Aod statue image making it appear to come alive, speak, and the false prophet demand everyone worship it.

Which everyone who worships the beast or his AoD image will drink the wine of God's wrath, Revelation 14:10.

How can you have Satan in control for 42 months, and then no one in control for the next 42 months? Even you have to put the tribulation first, and then go back to the AoD, and then leap frog over the Tribulation, to the Second Coming.

Look at my chart, and then tell me what you are talking about from it. Satan's time/times/half time that he will have left is in blue. And the beast's 42 months is in brown. They overlap each other.

 

[Douggg]

@Timtofly

The rapture to take place in the window from today to when the Antichrist commits the ToD act.

 

[Timtofly]

Why are you asking me this? When did I say that Satan accused anyone "of being naturally born into Adam's flesh"?

Where are you getting that from?

Are our sins not forgiven and covered by the blood of Christ? Of course. So, what can he accuse us of? Did you even bother reading Romans 8:31-36? Paul said that no one can make accusations against us or condemn us. Was he wrong? You think Satan can do that even though Paul said no one can?

Where did Paul make that point? Nowhere. You're making that up. He asked who can make a charge (accusation - same thing) against us and said no one can. But, here you are saying that Satan can do that. You clearly do not understand what Paul was teaching in Romans 8:31-36.

No, you don't know how to reconcile Scripture with Scripture: Revelation 12:10

"And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."

Historically Christians have been and are being branded as heretics and martyred. Matthew 24:4-14.

How do your verses totally rule out false accusations? It is true that we are sinners and constantly being judged by others, but God only sees the Atonement. You are so blinded by Amil theology, you fail to even understand the truth found in Scripture. You make the verses say what you want them to say.

Romans 8 does not say Satan is bound. The first verse sets the point of the chapter:

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

No one can condemn us. That does not mean they don't attempt to judge us in the flesh. No one can remove our justification received from the Cross. No one can place us back under the bondage of sin, accept our own selfish desires. No one is able to remove us from Christ. Not even ourselves. God will punish His own children, but punishment is not condemnation for those in Christ. Punishment is correction of a wayward child.

But turning those verses to fit your eschatology, is in full contradiction of other Scripture, and the fact that we will be falsely accused, even to the point of some saying we are not even in Christ. You constantly point out others "claiming" you are not even saved. They actually don't, but you seem offended. Why do you let them offend you, if you claim Romans 8:31-36? Just forget it and stop feeling so threatened, if you are going to claim those verses. Obviously people can condemn you and Satan does, night and day. Does not mean they have any grounds to do so. Your logic says Satan is bound, and no one can offend you, but you still feel threatened, and Satan is still not bound from accusing the brethren night and day, nor ruling over those who think they need Satan's power and authority. This proves Satan is not currently bound as written in Revelation 20:1-3.

It is our sin that condemns us as well, and all are born into Adam's dead corruptible flesh. There is no escaping sin. But in Christ we can yield our desires to the Holy Spirit. We are souls under the alter, and Satan is insane to bring us up night and day in his attempt to destroy the church. Nothing and no one can condemn us!

 

[Super Kal]

I have never hear a single person refer to a rapture timing view as the "dispensational rapture". I think most dispensationalists hold the pre-trib rapture position.

like i said, in my history of conversing with dispies (sometimes good, but most of the time bad) they have a habit of not just referring it to the "biblical view" (which is laughable and preposterous IMO) they are also just as quick to call it the "dispensational view".
now i dont know what dispies you've conversed with, so i cant speak on that account. it seems as though there is a difference of consensus dealing with terminology within that theological branch

You were insinuating it though.

first off, dont tell me what i was and was not doing. you're already willing to lie to a moderator about something i never did, and that disqualifies you from telling me what i did and did not say.

secondly, i wasnt even insinuating, or suggesting, that you were one.
i can accept the fact that you say you're not a dispensationalist, and i believe that. that doesnt change the fact that you have eschatological beliefs that are very similar to theirs. even user Spiritual Jew has noticed that.
post#201

I'll just take your word for it that you're not a dispensationalist and that you just have some similar beliefs as they do.

yet i dont see you screaming bloody murder about what he says.

your real problem is with jerryhuerta, not me. he flat out called you a dispensationalist. i did not. i can humbly admit that my observation about your view in eschatology was not well-timed, and i apologize for that, but dont threaten me over something i never did.

The image of the beast is the abomination of desolation, which will be placed on the temple, at which time the Jews in Judea should flee to the mountains.

i dont define the image of the beast being set up as the AoD. i think that event is when the man of sin calls himself God, per 2thess2:3-4
and in all of this (and i could be wrong), you havent discussed the shortening for the elect sake.

 

[Douggg]

i dont define the image of the beast being set up as the AoD. i think that event is when the man of sin calls himself God, per 2thess2:3-4
and in all of this (and i could be wrong), you havent discussed the shortening for the elect sake.

I hope you got the other part of your post out of your system.

Regarding why 2Thessalonians2:3 is not the abomination of desolation....

2Thessalonians2:3 is an "act" by the Antichrist (a Jew), which reveals him as the man of sin. That "act' is a transgression of the Mt. Sinai covenant regarding the One True God and to have no other gods other than Him.

The act is the "transgression of desolation" of Daniel 8:12-13.

The Antichrist is the little horn person of Daniel 7 and 8.

12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

The abomination of desolation is NOT an act, but a thing..."setup" as it says in Daniel 12:11-12.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

In general, the rapture will take place before the parable of the fig tree generation passes away. The forums rules prevent me from saying anything further.

So, it's not any amount of time since it would not be against forum rules to believe that.

Could be.

Could be any amount of time? But, that's not what you think, apparently, since what you believe would be against forum rules to share (I assume you're talking about rules against date setting).

But how far into the future do you think Putin and the Russians team up with the muslims (Gog/Magog) to attack Israel?

Why are you asking me this? You know I don't see things like this the way you do, so it doesn't make any sense to ask me questions like this. I'm just asking you questions to get a better idea of what you believe.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

The guy is a quack. Don't spend time on guys like him.

Correct.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

No, you don't know how to reconcile Scripture with Scripture: Revelation 12:10

I disagree. You think you know how to do that?

"And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."

Historically Christians have been and are being branded as heretics and martyred. Matthew 24:4-14.

Sure. What is your point?

How do your verses totally rule out false accusations?

I don't know what you're asking here or why you're asking this question.

It is true that we are sinners and constantly being judged by others, but God only sees the Atonement.

How does anything you're saying in this post relate to anything that has been discussed?

You are so blinded by Amil theology, you fail to even understand the truth found in Scripture.

And, yet, you are completely unable to refute Amil. So, these are empty words coming from you.

You make the verses say what you want them to say.

Just another false accusation from you. Nothing new to see here. It's clearly a waste of my time reading your posts, so I'm not going to waste any more time reading the rest of this one.

 

[Douggg]

Could be any amount of time? But, that's not what you think, apparently, since what you believe would be against forum rules to share (I assume you're talking about rules against date setting).

Within the limits of the parable of the fig tree generation. Why are you asking me something I don't know. I don't know the day nor hour of the rapture, not even what year.

Why are you asking me this? You know I don't see things like this the way you do, so it doesn't make any sense to ask me questions like this. I'm just asking you questions to get a better idea of what you believe.

I am saying that the current events involving Russia and the Ukraine, Putin (possible Gog) and Zelensky (possible Antichrist), indicate the probability that the rapture is not into the distant future.

 

[Super Kal]

I hope you got the other part of your post out of your system.

has nothing to do with "getting it out of the system". you falsely accused me of something, and i called you out on it. at least be a man and own up to your mistake.

Regarding why 2Thessalonians2:3 is not the abomination of desolation....

i take both the transgression of desolation and the abomination of desolation as the same thing, and no, it's not a thing. it's an event that happens.
when the man of sin commits the abomination of desolation, which is the ceasing of the daily sacrifices, and him claiming to be God, that event is what starts the great tribulation, which is 42 months long, or 3 1/2 years.

and i see you cavalier dismissed what Jesus said in Matthew 24:22
"If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short."

scripture does not say the great tribulation is 1335 days long... that's your personal opinion, one i do not ascribe to.

 

[Timtofly]

There is a half way point of 1260 days. But that is really not the issue of your not being clear.

Revelation 13 actually says the beast rules for 42 months. Which the beast receives power from Satan.

I do agree with you that the Amil position about the 42 months is wrong.


The purpose of the kings of the earth gathering their armies at Armageddon is to stop Jesus's Second Coming, from Him executing judgment on them and all responsible for martyring the great tribulation saints.


Jesus ends the 42 months rule of the beast at Jesus's Second Coming in Revelation 19, by having the beast and false prophet cast alive into the lake of fire, and Satan into the bottomless pit.

The seven vials of God's wrath are spread across approximately the final quarter of the seven years.

The 7 vials of God's wrath, as they are occurring, would be an indication that Jesus's Second Coming is rapidly approaching. But the sign of Jesus's Second Coming will be the sixth seal event, the sign of the Son of Man in heaven - 45 days before Jesus Returns down to this earth.

The rapture will take place years before the 7 vials of God's wrath take place.

The Aod for 1335 days (Daniel 12:11-12). Satan will be cast down to earth for the remaining time/time/half time of those 1335 days. The time/times/half time will be a little bit less than 1260 days to account for the war in the 2nd heaven time.

For that time/times/half period, Satan will possess that Aod statue image making it appear to come alive, speak, and the false prophet demand everyone worship it.

Which everyone who worships the beast or his AoD image will drink the wine of God's wrath, Revelation 14:10.

Look at my chart, and then tell me what you are talking about from it. Satan's time/times/half time that he will have left is in blue. And the beast's 42 months is in brown. They overlap each other.

Paul does not separate the rapture from the Second Coming. That is the whole erroneous view of modern eschatology, that is wrong about futurist, dispensationalist, and the whole left behind ideology. No one is left behind period. Those left on earth who thought they were Christians, will embrace Satan by being strongly deceived.

There is only one 1260 day period of the AoD. The AoD is your AC/beast. That 42 months starts in the midst ot the week of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet when Satan is cast out. There is no FP, nor time of the AoD until after the 7th Trumpet sounds.

So the only time of GT tribulation is between the 1st Trumpet and the 7th Thunder. The GT is not the 42 months of AoD. That is why the AoD cannot come first. That 42 months ends at the moment the 2 witnesses are killed. There is only the 3.5 days they lay dead on the street in Jerusalem. The Sunday morning they are given life and ascend, is the day of the 1 hour of Armageddon.

Armageddon is not to prevent the Second Coming. That already happened at the 6th Seal. Armageddon is to remove the rest of Adam's flesh, toss the FP and beast into the LOF, and bind Satan for 1,000 years. All power of Satan and that government stopped after 1260 days, then the 2 witnesses were killed.

During those 3 days, the 7 vials are poured out, and God gathered the armies to Armageddon. Revelation 16:14-16. Notice it is the 6th vial of God's wrath:

"For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon."

The spirits came out of the mouth of Satan, the FP, and the beast/AC, but it was He/God who gathered and made sure all of humanity left on earth arrived at Armageddon. This is the wine press 42 months later instead of at the end of a week, and the winepress of Revelation 14. If the week is split in half per Daniel 9:27, then 42 months and Armageddon. If the 7th Trumpet is not interrupted, and the week is not split in half, then all those humans are killed in Revelation 14 instead of 42 months later at Armageddon.

You call the appearing of the sign per Matthew 24 a 45 day warning? Revelation 11 is talking about the 7th Trumpet, because the 7th Trumpet was announced in chapter 10. The 7 Thunders happened in chapter 10. The 6th Trumpet and 2nd woe, ended before the 7 Thunders. You do not even account for the 7 Thunders, as if they are not supposed to happen.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Within the limits of the parable of the fig tree generation. Why are you asking me something I don't know.

I'm asking questions about what you believe. You don't know what you believe?

I don't know the day nor hour of the rapture, not even what year.

Yes, I know that you don't know that because no one but the Father knows that. You're the only person I know who believes in an "anytime rapture", so I'm trying to determine what that means exactly in terms of how you see the timing of the rapture in relation to other events.

I am saying that the current events involving Russia and the Ukraine, Putin (possible Gog) and Zelensky (possible Antichrist), indicate the probability that the rapture is not into the distant future.

Yes, I know you think that, but I don't. You had asked me "But how far into the future do you think Putin and the Russians team up with the muslims (Gog/Magog) to attack Israel?". Why would you ask me this question knowing that I don't share your beliefs about these things?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Paul does not separate the rapture from the Second Coming. That is the whole erroneous view of modern eschatology, that is wrong about futurist, dispensationalist, and the whole left behind ideology. No one is left behind period.

Wow, here's something we actually agree on. I didn't agree with anything else you said in your post, but at least I do agree with what you said here.

 

[Douggg]

....and the whole left behind ideology. No one is left behind period. Those left on earth who thought they were Christians, will embrace Satan by being strongly deceived.

Tim, what do you think about this set of verses in Matthew 24:

48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Douggg]

Yes, I know you think that, but I don't. You had asked me "But how far into the future do you think Putin and the Russians team up with the muslims (Gog/Magog) to attack Israel?". Why would you ask me this question knowing that I don't share your beliefs about these things?

A would guess a couple of years. I don't recall what you believe about Gog/Magog.

 

[Douggg]

There is only one 1260 day period of the AoD. The AoD is your AC/beast. That 42 months starts in the midst ot the week of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet when Satan is cast out. There is no FP, nor time of the AoD until after the 7th Trumpet sounds.

Tim, make a chart of the 1260 days, the 42 months, the time/times/half times like I did, but your view of how those fit. Please keep it simple.

There is only one 1260 day period of the AoD. The AoD is your AC/beast. That 42 months starts in the midst ot the week of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet when Satan is cast out. There is no FP, nor time of the AoD until after the 7th Trumpet sounds.

No, my understanding of the AoD is that it will a statue image of the beast.

The 42 months and the time/times/half time are the same period - but the time/times/half time is just a little bit shorter to account of the war in the second heaven time between Michael and his angels and Satan and his angels. Take a look at my chart above.

 

[Timtofly]

Wow, here's something we actually agree on. I didn't agree with anything else you said in your post, but at least I do agree with what you said here.

Yes, there is an any time Second Coming to the Mount of Olives at the same time of the rapture. So the mount of Olives is not burned up at the Second Coming.

Why would you not just call it a rapture? You don't accept an actual Second Coming. Second Coming would imply to earth like the first coming.

 

[Timtofly]

Tim, what do you think about this set of verses in Matthew 24:

48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

....and the whole left behind ideology. No one is left behind period. Those left on earth who thought they were Christians, will embrace Satan by being strongly deceived.

And then destroyed.

 

[Timtofly]

Tim, make a chart of the 1260 days, the 42 months, the time/times/half times like I did, but your view of how those fit. Please keep it simple.

No, my understanding of the AoD is that it will a statue image of the beast.

The 42 months and the time/times/half time are the same period - but the time/times/half time is just a little bit shorter to account of the war in the second heaven time between Michael and his angels and Satan and his angels. Take a look at my chart above.

What times, time, and a half? Where do you get that?

Second Coming / 7th Seal / 6 Trumpets / 7 Thunders / 7th Trumpet (one week, Sunday to Sunday) / Millennium Kingdom

7th Trumpet (3.5 days) / 42 months / 3.5 days (7 vials) / 7th Trumpet stops sounding