the Mark of the Beast, Daniel's 70th week, and Pastor Bill Macgregor

[Douggg]

What times, time, and a half? Where do you get that?

In Revelation 12:14 after Satan has been cast down to earth, he persecutes the the woman (Israel) for a time, times, half time.

Basically the second half of the seven years.

Also the time, times, half time the little horn (the beast person) in Daniel 7:25 oppresses the saints ( the Jews at their messiah truth site, say that the saints are the people of Israel).

And in Daniel 12:7, which that chapter opens with a verse saying that it will be the worst time in the history of the nation of Israel, but Michael the angel stands up for Daniel's people*, again is the time, times, half time.

So that three places.
Revelation 12:14
Daniel 7:25
Daniel 12:7
that the time/times/half times appears.

*that's how I know that the woman in Revelation 12 is referring to Israel and not the church.

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

The fall feasts that you refer to happen every year. And have been doing so ever since the days of Moses. They are not called time of the end events in the Tanach, i.e. old testament to you.

Your eschatology is missing in action, Jerry.

I'll give you a hint, Jerry, go look up the time of the end phrase in the book of Daniel, every place it is used.

Hey, Doug, I hope you’ve been paying attention to Super Kal because he’s been telling you right about what it takes to be a dispensationalist. The 7 dispensations are not the sine qua non of dispensationalism. The sine qua non of dispensationalism is that they hold two separate mediations for the Church and Israel because they see them as separate bodies. God prophesied about Israel, while the Church was unforeseen in its doctrine. You uphold the sine qua non of dispensationalism. If it quacks like a duck…

As to the seven feast days or oblations in the Hebrew calendar, apparently, you don’t grasp that Christ’s sacrifice is the antitype of the Passover! And how about those nations that “shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles,” which represents the antitype of Sukkot. I’m appalled that you don’t understand about types and antitypes and yet you want to junior me. Really!

I simply do not expect dispensationalists to fully grasp the identities in Daniel and the Revelation or the time of the end, and your chart affirms it.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

No, I just accept there is one God for all humanity, and that God did call out people at certain times for His will and plan on earth.

Who said there was a Church under the New Covenant in the OT?

Obviously, the NT authors didn’t think Christ’s mediation was pointless. You might try reading about it sometime.

And your opinion that everyone is interested in a dispensational fairy tale is hubris. Not everyone thinks the Jews are getting left behind to suffer the wrath of God.

And an open theist believes that God didn’t know that the Jews would reject his Son and that He would have to postpone the kingdom until his Son's return. Further, he made up the Church on the spur of the moment.

 

[Douggg]

7th Trumpet (3.5 days) / 42 months / 3.5 days (7 vials) / 7th Trumpet stops sounding

Tim, the 3.5 days in Revelation 11 is not the 7th trumpet sounding.

The 3.5 days is the interval between when the two witnesses are killed and when they come back to life.

The two witnesses will be killed. Then 3.5 days later come back to life and are called up to heaven. A big earthquake then happens in Jerusalem and 7,000 people die. Revelation 11:13.

Then... after all that, the seventh angel sounds his trumpet.

 

[Douggg]

I simply do not expect dispensationalists to fully grasp the identities in Daniel and the Revelation or the time of the end, and your chart affirms it.

Whatever issues you have with dispensationists, please take it up with them.

On the issue is the church and Israel two different entities, that we can talk about.

My position is that the church and Israel in bible prophecy are two different entities.

Let's look at Revelation 12. Michael and his angels fought against Satan and his angels. And Satan in Revelation 12:14 persecutes the woman for a time, times, half time.

Now if we go to Daniel 12, verse one starts off with Michael standing up for Daniel's people the Jews, and there being the worst time in the nation of Israel's history, never to be repeated.

In Daniel 12:7, that worst time is a time, times, half time.

So there are two distinct elements tying the woman as being Israel, and not the church.

1. That it is Michael the angel who stands up for Daniel's people the Jews, and it is their nation to suffer but be delivered. And that it is Michael and his angels that fight against Satan and his angels. The accuser of our brethren the Jews who will have become Christian right before then, in the middle part of the 7 years, with their experience with the Antichrist, thinking he is the messiah, blows up on them, and they turn to Jesus, finally.

2. The timeframe is the same for the persecution of woman in Revelation 12:14 and the suffering of Daniel's people as being a time, times, half time in Daniel 12:7 as well.

So the woman in Revelation 12 is Israel and not the church.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Whatever issues you have with dispensationists, please take it up with them.

On the issue is the church and Israel two different entities, that we can talk about.

My position is that the church and Israel in bible prophecy are two different entities.

Let's look at Revelation 12. Michael and his angels fought against Satan and his angels. And Satan in Revelation 12:14 persecutes the woman for a time, times, half time.

Now if we go to Daniel 12, verse one starts off with Michael standing up for Daniel's people the Jews, and there being the worst time in the nation of Israel's history, never to be repeated.

In Daniel 12:7, that worst time is a time, times, half time.

So there are two distinct elements tying the woman as being Israel, and not the church.

1. That it is Michael the angel who stands up for Daniel's people the Jews, and it is their nation to suffer but be delivered. And that it is Michael and his angels that fight against Satan and his angels. The accuser of our brethren the Jews who will have become Christian right before then, in the middle part of the 7 years, with their experience with the Antichrist, thinking he is the messiah, blows up on them, and they turn to Jesus, finally.

2. The timeframe is the same for the persecution of woman in Revelation 12:14 and the suffering of Daniel's people as being a time, times, half time in Daniel 12:7 as well.

So the woman in Revelation 12 is Israel and not the church.

As I previously related:
The woman is seen in heaven at the time the man child, Christ, is caught up in heaven, which is a first advent phenomenon. Here we have the woman cared for in the wilderness just and prophesied in Jeremiah 31:1-2, 27-28; Ezekiel 34:2, 9-10, 23-26; Isaiah 49:5-7; and Hosea 2:14-23. And the casting down of Satan is upheld as a first advent phenomenon in Luke 10:18, and the illustration of the woman in heaven is identified by Ephesian 2:6, and the Church depicted as a betrothed woman in 2 Corinthians 11:2. All of which affirms that Revelation 12 illustrates phenomena commencing with the first advent. I don't see where you surmounted as such.

 

[Douggg]

Hey, Doug, I hope you’ve been paying attention to Super Kal because he’s been telling you right about what it takes to be a dispensationalist. The 7 dispensations are not the sine qua non of dispensationalism. The sine qua non of dispensationalism is that they hold two separate mediations for the Church and Israel because they see them as separate bodies. God prophesied about Israel, while the Church was unforeseen in its doctrine. You uphold the sine qua non of dispensationalism. If it quacks like a duck…

The sine qua non of dispensationalism is the 7 dispensations. If it were the separation of Israel and the church in bible prophecy, they would be calling themselves separatists - and not dispensationalist.

 

[Douggg]

As I previously related:
The woman is seen in heaven at the time the man child, Christ, is caught up in heaven, which is a first advent phenomenon. Here we have the woman cared for in the wilderness just and prophesied in Jeremiah 31:1-2, 27-28; Ezekiel 34:2, 9-10, 23-26; Isaiah 49:5-7; and Hosea 2:14-23. And the casting down of Satan is upheld as a first advent phenomenon in Luke 10:18, and the illustration of the woman in heaven is identified by Ephesian 2:6, and the Church depicted as a betrothed woman in 2 Corinthians 11:2. All of which affirms that Revelation 12 illustrates phenomena commencing with the first advent. I don't see where you surmounted as such.

The first five verses of Revelation 12 are historic to show that the woman is Israel.

Jesus was not born to the church, but Israel.

In Isaiah 9:6 unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given - referring to Jesus, the Jewish people, and the nation of Israel.

The church has never been in the wilderness for 1260 days, Revelation 12:6.

It will be Israel in the wilderness 1260 days as the two witnesses in Jerusalem will preach and prophesy to them those 1260 days in Revelation 11:3. Look at who is in Jerusalem right now - the Jews, having come out of the nations.

You have not surmounted Revelation 12:14 and Daniel 12:7, the time, times, half time in each chapter, and both chapters identify the nation and the woman as Israel.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

The first five verses of Revelation 12 are historic to show that the woman is Israel.

Jesus was not born to the church, but Israel.

In Isaiah 9:6 unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given - referring to Jesus, the Jewish people, and the nation of Israel.

The church has never been in the wilderness for 1260 days, Revelation 12:6.

It will be Israel in the wilderness 1260 days as the two witnesses in Jerusalem will preach and prophesy to them those 1260 days in Revelation 11:3. Look at who is in Jerusalem right now - the Jews, having come out of the nations.

You have not surmounted Revelation 12:14 and Daniel 12:7, the time, times, half time in each chapter, and both chapters identify the nation and the woman as Israel.

Apparently, you ignored Super Kal witness that it was the pretribulation movement that predated the school of eschatology known as dispensationalism. The name dispensationalism was adopted later. Separating the Church from Israel was initial in their doctrine which came to be known as dispensationalism.

As to the woman of Revelation 12, Christ interpreted the woman for us:

Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. (Matthew 12:48-50)​

The true Israel that bore Christ, figuratively, could not be the Jews appointed to reject him, but those that followed him, the elect of Israel, saved before the foundations, which is the Church. Christ, whom they followed, sent them to spread the Gospel. So it was the Church that mothered Christ, in the Biblical sense.

And yes, the Church was in the wilderness according to Jeremiah 31:1-2, 27-28; Ezekiel 34:2, 9-10, 23-26; Isaiah 49:5-7; Hosea 2:14-23. And it was 1260 years. That is how long the Popes lasted until Protestantism took their power away.

 

[Douggg]

Apparently, you ignored Super Kal witness that it was the pretribulation movement that predated the school of eschatology known as dispensationalism. The name dispensationalism was adopted later. Separating the Church from Israel was initial in their doctrine which came to be known as dispensationalism.

That the church is not Israel began with God. Do you have anyone who predates God?

 

[Douggg]

The true Israel that bore Christ, figuratively, could not be the Jews appointed to reject him, but those that followed him, the elect of Israel, saved before the foundations, which is the Church. Christ, whom they followed, sent them to spread the Gospel. So it was the Church that mothered Christ, in the Biblical sense.

Here we go - replacement theology. Jerry, I don't buy into replacement theology.

Nor that the 1260 days in Revelation 11:3 and Revelation 12:6 are 1260 years.

I make charts which everything fits, using the timeframes given in the bible - without alteration. Including the worship of Satan and the worship of the beast during the 42 months (see my chart below).

Do you acknowledge that Satan and the beast person are going to be worshiped during the 42 months of Revelation 13:4-5?

4 And they worshipped the dragon w hich gave power unto the beast:and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

 

[Timtofly]

Tim, the 3.5 days in Revelation 11 is not the 7th trumpet sounding.

The 3.5 days is the interval between when the two witnesses are killed and when they come back to life.

The two witnesses will be killed. Then 3.5 days later come back to life and are called up to heaven. A big earthquake then happens in Jerusalem and 7,000 people die. Revelation 11:13.

Then... after all that, the seventh angel sounds his trumpet.

Those 3.5 days is the second half of a week. The midst of the week is the key here.

Daniel 12:7 is the count down from Daniel's time to the end: 3500 years.

There is only one period of 3.5 years at the end, and it is time given to Satan, if God allows Satan control for those 42 months in Revelation 13. Revelation 12:14 is that same 42 months. The time of the 2 witnesses is that same 3.5 years.

The 7th Trumpet sounds for a week of days. That week is split in half. So the 7th Trumpet cannot finish, until that week is completed, or Armageddon finishes up a split week.

Think about the walls of Jericho and the type of destruction of this world's Babylonian structure. The 6 days of Trumpets, and on the last day the 7th day of there being Trumpets, Jericho was destroyed. The 6 Trumpets, and then the week of days sounding of the 7th Trumpet.

The issue will be if the 42 months are necessary, or if they are not necessary. The confirmation of the Atonement. That will only be determined during the days of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. If necessary then that week will be split in half for the AoD, the 3rd woe.

 

[Douggg]

Those 3.5 days is the second half of a week.

What is your rationale that the 3.5 days the two witnesses bodies lay dead in the streets of Jerusalem, as the people of the world exchange presents over their deaths, is the second half of the week (of years) ?

or do you believe that the one week in Daniel 9:27 is 7 literal days and not a week of years ?

 

[Douggg]

There is only one period of 3.5 years at the end, and it is time given to Satan, if God allows Satan control for those 42 months in Revelation 13. Revelation 12:14 is that same 42 months. The time of the 2 witnesses is that same 3.5 years.

Tim, you are making it sound like God is blessing Satan with 3.5 years. To the contrary, God will be tightening the noose around Satan's neck for 3.5 years as God sets about destroying Satan's kingdom to never exist again.

The 1260 days of the two witnesses is before Satan is cast down to earth from the 2nd heaven.

Revelation 12:6, 1260 days. Then Revelation 12:7-9, the war in the second heaven. Then the time, times, half that Satan persecutes in the woman knowing that he has but a little time left, Revelation 12:14

 

[Douggg]

Daniel 12:7 is the count down from Daniel's time to the end: 3500 years.

The time, times, half time of Daniel 12:7 is 3500 years?

You (the time/times/half time altered to mean 3500 years) and Jerry (1260 days altered to means 1260 years) are both altering the meaning of the text to come up with your timeline schemes. Which I (and don't think anyone else) can understand your schemes because you both don't show things with a timeline chart of how everything fits together.

 

[Douggg]

The issue will be if the 42 months are necessary, or if they are not necessary. The confirmation of the Atonement. That will only be determined during the days of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. If necessary then that week will be split in half for the AoD, the 3rd woe.

Tim, I don't know where you are coming up with necessary or not necessary.

The 42 months are stated as fact of something that is going to happen. The 42 months are not something that is conditional.

 

[Timtofly]

What is your rationale that the 3.5 days the two witnesses bodies lay dead in the streets of Jerusalem, as the people of the world exchange presents over their deaths, is the second half of the week (of years) ?

or do you believe that the one week in Daniel 9:27 is 7 literal days and not a week of years ?

Revelation 10 calls the 7th Trumpet a week of days. Not years.

 

[Super Kal]

The sine qua non of dispensationalism is the 7 dispensations. If it were the separation of Israel and the church in bible prophecy, they would be calling themselves separatists - and not dispensationalist.

it doesnt matter what you think they should have called themselves. facts dont care about your personal opinions.
the fact of the matter is, separating the church from Israel came first in 1827. then came the fleshing out of the theology with seven time periods and all the other malarkey that comes with it

 

[Super Kal]

Here we go - replacement theology. Jerry, I don't buy into replacement theology.

it's not "replacement theology". dispensationalists first came up with that term as an insult to those who believed that the church fulfilled the role of Israel

and just so you know, Barnabas, Second Clement, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Cyprian, Lactantius, and Origen for that matter, all believed that the Church was the fulfillment of Israel.

 

[Timtofly]

Tim, you are making it sound like God is blessing Satan with 3.5 years. To the contrary, God will be tightening the noose around Satan's neck for 3.5 years as God sets about destroying Satan's kingdom to never exist again.

No, I am not, any more than Daniel 9:27 implies Jesus sets up the AoD. You are not getting the point. The 7th Trumpet is the celebration of all that Jesus accomplished in the Atonement. Satan's 42 months is the third woe.

Do you not see that there is no judgment mentioned with the 7th Trumpet? Yet by the end of the 7th Trumpet sounding all humans will be dead by the judgment of the sickle and winepress. Revelation 14.

The 42 months is the time given to those beheaded, not Satan. The AoD is not the reward. The AoD is the removal of all that is good, even human rightness and morals. The only good thing that can be done during the 42 months is to chop one's head off to avoid the mark of the beast. The point is not about Satan, it is about confirming the Atonement Covenant with the many. The 42 months is not Satan trying to figure out how to take over the throne and set up the AoD in the temple in Jerusalem.

Yet it is God's longsuffering and mercy extended to any human who would find redemption, even after God had declared time over in Revelation 10:6-7. The final harvest is over by the 7th Trumpet. Victory has been declared. But God still grants time to those who would choose God by faith, even if that choice is having one's head chopped off.

Why is this any harder to accept, than to say some human, figures out to end life as we know it, called the AC? No AC will be calling the shots. It is God doing all the shot calling by starting this time of trouble with the Second Coming, and destroying all the works of mankind from the last 6,000 years of sin and death. Jesus as King will be on earth removing all of humanity, sending some to eternal damnation, and choosing others to be righteousness of God on earth for the next 1,000 years. The last 42 months are only granted in order to allow those beheaded, because a resurrection of those beheaded starts off the 1,000 year reign from Jerusalem. But for there to be a resurrection of beheaded souls, there has to be a 42 month period in which they are being beheaded. If no 42 months, there will not even be a resurrection in Revelation 20:4. Yet Satan will still be bound, and the 144k and the sheep and the wheat of the final harvest will still reign for 1,000 years with Christ over their offspring for dozens of generations. The sheep and wheat are the firstfruits of the tribulation to populate the earth after the 7th Trumpet stops sounding. They were gathered between the Second Coming of the 6th Seal and the 7th Trumpet. Matthew 13 and Matthew 25:31

You all seem to focus on the wrong aspect of the Second Coming.