the Mark of the Beast, Daniel's 70th week, and Pastor Bill Macgregor

[Timtofly]

The time, times, half time of Daniel 12:7 is 3500 years?

You (the time/times/half time altered to mean 3500 years) and Jerry (1260 days altered to means 1260 years) are both altering the meaning of the text to come up with your timeline schemes. Which I (and don't think anyone else) can understand your schemes because you both don't show things with a timeline chart of how everything fits together.

Because half a time was between Daniel and Jesus, 500 years the 490 years was part of that time. It has been 1992 years since the Cross. That is two times. The Millennium reign is 1,000 years. Why would that not be times, time and half of time. Many think the GWT in Revelation 20 the point being made including the Ascension of Jesus at the Cross.

"Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river. And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished."

So the answer about time started in Daniel's day, and will be over after heaven and earth pass away in Revelation 20:11, 3500 years.

When John saw a similar thing in Revelation 10, that was not at the end of the 1,000 year reign:

"And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

This was not the end of the times, time, and half a time in Daniel 12. The time that was over in Revelation 10 is the 70th week, because Messiah was cut off, and did not rule on earth as King. There was an undetermined amount of time for the fulness of the Gentiles. No one knew, except perhaps John after Patmos, that the times of Daniel 12 was the fulness of the Gentiles. Only Paul, a trained Pharisee pointed out the hold on Israel, and the ingathering of the Gentiles, but Paul did not know the length, even though it was presented in Daniel 12. No, it would be at the end of the 2,000 year period before humans would realize the times, time, and half a time. And many today now deny the final time, and want to call it the times, declaring a final 1,000 years cannot happen.

Paul did declare the points of Daniel's times, time, and half of time in 1 Corinthians 15:22-25

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits (the end of the half time); afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (The end of the times) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, (the end of the time) even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet."

The 6 times of Adam's punishment, 6,000 years is found in Exodus 20:8-10

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days (time) shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day (time) is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work,"

Humans will not see the Millennium as work. It will be an enjoyment without sin, decay, and Satan. It will be everlasting righteousness. The last time will be the time on earth to enjoy Daniel 9:24. It will be the Holy Sabbath day, the time mentioned, both in Exodus 20:10 and Daniel 12:7

 

[Timtofly]

Tim, I don't know where you are coming up with necessary or not necessary.

The 42 months are stated as fact of something that is going to happen. The 42 months are not something that is conditional.

All prophecy is conditional, until it is fulfilled. Especially regarding the Atonement Covenant. God allows free will. God does not force His will on people. That should be clearly evident with 6,000 years of sin and death. If God did not allow free will, we would not even of had sin and death period. Surely you don't think evil is the full plan of God for creation?

Even Jesus prayed, let this cup pass from me if it be thy will, nevertheless not my will, but thine be done. Is it not implied that Jesus could have called 10,000 angels and walked away? Did not Satan walk away with a third of the angels? Jesus could have walked out on God and disobeyed. History would have been radically different than what was prophecied.

Revelation 13 and Daniel 9:27 is the worse case scenario. They are not the only scenario.

Many here already claim the 70th week was over in 34 AD. They already ruled out Satan's 42 months in their eschatology. Just ask all the amil who are posting here their alternate scenario of those 42 months. Certainly their scenario is hardly a contender any more than what I pointed out. Revelation 14 and Revelation 19 cannot both happen. You cannot kill off all of humanity 2 times. It is either Revelation 14 without those 42 months, or Revelation 19 with those 42 months. It is physically impossible to do both.

 

[Douggg]

Revelation 10 calls the 7th Trumpet a week of days. Not years.

Tim, Revelation 10 doesn't call when the seventh angel sounds his voice as a "week" of days. But in the days of. No week in the text.

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

 

[Douggg]

t's not "replacement theology". dispensationalists first came up with that term as an insult to those who believed that the church fulfilled the role of Israel

I don't know who came up with the term "replacement theology", but it seems very appropriate to me.

Even a well known counter missionary Jew, Tovia Singer, talked about it in one of his You Tube videos. Tovia Singer could hardly be thought of as a dispensationalist.

Do you hold to the covenant theology position ? I think persons holding that position believe the church fulfilled the role of Israel, i.e. what is broadly known as "replacement theology".

 

[Douggg]

it doesnt matter what you think they should have called themselves. facts dont care about your personal opinions.
the fact of the matter is, separating the church from Israel came first in 1827. then came the fleshing out of the theology with seven time periods and all the other malarkey that comes with it

It is one of the most widely known facts, worldwide, that the Jews were scattered into the nations in the first century, just as Jesus said in Luke 21.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

And masses of Jews returned to the land of Israel right after WWII and Israel became a nation again in the land promised to the children of Israel, by God, as theirs forever.

 

[Douggg]

Do you not see that there is no judgment mentioned with the 7th Trumpet? Yet by the end of the 7th Trumpet sounding all humans will be dead by the judgment of the sickle and winepress. Revelation 14.

Not all humans, Tim. But those who worship the beast and his image will drink the wine of the wrath of God.

Revelation 14:
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

[Douggg]

All prophecy is conditional, until it is fulfilled.

Please provide a copy and paste bible passage that asserts "all prophecy is conditional, until it is fulfilled".

 

[Timtofly]

Tim, Revelation 10 doesn't call when the seventh angel sounds his voice as a "week" of days. But in the days of. No week in the text.

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The shortest length of a period of days in a set is a week. Daniel 9:27 sets the set of 7 as days. The midst of the week is the midst of this set of days, or a week of days.

Even Jesus was cut off in the midst of a set of days or a week of days. Jesus was in Jerusalem or on the mount of Olives from Sunday to Sunday. 3.5 of those days was spent in the tomb.

Comparing this week in the first century with the days of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet gives us the week of Daniel 9:27. The 2 witnesses lay dead on a street in Jerusalem for 3.5 days the last half of the week of the 7th Trumpet.

The 7th Trumpet did not sound the week Jesus was on earth from Palm Sunday to Resurrection Sunday. So Daniel 9:27 can not be about the Cross nor the first century at all. Nor is it about 7 years in the future. It is dealing with the Days of the 7th Trumpet.

Jesus is the 70th week. 3.5 years as Messiah. 3.5 years as King. Except the last 3.5 years are cut short, as the church is on earth longer for the elect sake, and Jesus as King is shortened. But the week of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet declares Daniel's 70 weeks are over. That is the purpose of the 7th Trumpet, not judgment. The 6,000 years of Adam's punishment along with sin and decay is also over at the 7th Trumpet. The final harvest is over at the 7th Trumpet. A 100% harvest. Unless God in foreknowledge tells Jesus the King there are some souls left to be beheaded. Then the week is split in half, and the last 3.5 days are between the last day of the 42 months and the battle of Armageddon. The same 3 days God's 7 vials of wrath are poured out.

God does not do anything during Satan's 42 months. That is the time of whatever Satan does when Satan has 100% control over humanity and the earth. That is a set time of 42 months. Not that it takes 42 months for all to be beheaded. But it is not the last half of any period of time. It is not for Satan, but for those who will choose to be beheaded. The only thing from King Jesus' perspective is the removal of names from the Lamb's book of life, as humanity receives the mark of the beast. It is not a harvest. Those beheaded are souls who have physically died. They all will be resurrected after Armageddon. Revelation 20:4.

 

[Timtofly]

Not all humans, Tim. But those who worship the beast and his image will drink the wine of the wrath of God.

Revelation 14:
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

That is the point of the 42 months instead of the sickle of Jesus. The symbolism of the wine press is God's wrath via the:

"And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped."

That is a 100% bunch of grapes. No one is left no 42 months happened.

Symbolism:

"And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."

That is a wine press, not the valley of Megiddo and Armageddon as given in Revelation 19.

This verse is declaring the 42 months as extended time:

"And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

Babylon is only built up if Satan is allowed 42 months. The mark is only given if Satan is allowed 42 months. There is a FP waiting and an image built if there is a 42 month interruption. Otherwise no 42 months, and the whole earth is reaped at the end of the week of days, of the sound of the 7th Trumpet.

Chapter 14 is just the confirmation of the Atonement Covenant. Both results are given. One is for the 42 month extension. The other if the week of the 7th Trumpet is not cut into 2 halves. Revelation 17 and 18 point out the abomination and desolation of those 42 months.

The only humans left when the 7th Trumpet sounds are those who would take the mark. If you think some will choose to be beheaded then the 42 months will happen. If God declares no one is left who will be beheaded, are you going to protest to God that He should force people to be beheaded?

Revelation 20:4 does not say that John saw the souls of them who will be beheaded. Revelation 20:4 is not a prophecy of their beheading. It is a view of those who were beheaded, and prophetic of their resurrection.

There is not even a mention of beheading in Revelation 13 or 14.

Would you agree that in Revelation 15 it was not souls, but those with physical bodies singing the song of Moses? Why is John not describing them as souls that were beheaded here? Those in Revelation 20:4 are the only ones who got:

"that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God."

Do "souls" stand on a sea of glass and have harps and sing? These are the very humans who are given life and reign on earth for 1,000 years. How did they get the victory? They chose to be beheaded and avoided having the mark in their foreheads. Certainly they did not in their own physical strength and in Adam's dead corruptible flesh find this sea of glass and walk or fly there to escape Satan in Jerusalem. This is not your typical "find our own way" to escape a dystopian nightmare. Later John explains they were beheaded. John pointed out their physical death, to allow for a physical resurrection.

Certainly the sheep and wheat had victory over all of this, because they were removed prior to the 7th Trumpet. They avoided the AoD like Noah and were in the ark of safety while people were being killed on earth. Jesus was removing the sheep during the Trumpets. The wheat is harvested in the 7 Thunders, and we were not allowed to even think about those, as they were not included with any detail. They are still the harvest of the wheat and tares in Matthew 13. That is all the info we get about the 7 Thunders. Even the sheep will be gone standing on the sea of glass singing the song of Moses during the 7 Thunders. Notice that the parables and the OD likened the event to Noah and Lot. Jesus never likened it to Israel experiencing the plagues as they came out of Egypt. Yet John hinted at Egypt with the 2 witnesses and the song of Moses. But only those beheaded actually are on earth after the 7th Trumpet starts to sound.

All those on the sea of glass had the victory, even if not the experience. But none of them were the church. The church was glorified in the air, before Jesus even reached the Mount of Olives with all His angels to gather the final harvest: the sheep and wheat. The 144k, the sheep, the wheat, and those beheaded are not just mere souls, in a spiritual condition. They have permanent incorruptible physical bodies, without sin, and without a sin nature and the decay of death.

These are they who make up the firstfruits, the first generation of humans on earth during the Millennium Kingdom. They rule over their offspring like Isaiah 65 points out. These are the remnant of all humanity.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Yes, there is an any time Second Coming to the Mount of Olives at the same time of the rapture. So the mount of Olives is not burned up at the Second Coming.

Why would you not just call it a rapture? You don't accept an actual Second Coming. Second Coming would imply to earth like the first coming.

So, you couldn't just enjoy the rare occasion that we agreed on something. You had to go and make more false accusations about what I believe instead. I most certainly do accept a Second Coming. That was a blatant lie for you to say that about me. And I believe the rapture occurs at that time. But, instead of coming down to the earth as we know it, I believe He will come down to a renewed (new) earth after He burns it up and renews it first. So, don't ever again say that I don't "accept an actual Second Coming". Just because I don't have the same understanding of it as you do doesn't mean I don't accept it.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The first five verses of Revelation 12 are historic to show that the woman is Israel.

Jesus was not born to the church, but Israel.

You have the wrong Israel. It's spiritual Israel, not the nation of Israel. Who are the woman's children? Obviously, it refers to Jesus in Revelation 12:5. But, who else are her children?

Revelation 12:Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

The rest of her children or offspring besides Jesus or those "who keep God's commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus". That's referring to Christians. The church. Christians are not the children of the nation of Israel, so the woman can't possibly represent the nation of Israel.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Here we go - replacement theology. Jerry, I don't buy into replacement theology.

Who did he say was replaced and who replaced them? Please define replacement theology.

 

[Timtofly]

Please provide a copy and paste bible passage that asserts "all prophecy is conditional, until it is fulfilled".

Are you saying that no prophet was ever stoned for giving a false report?

Seems to me Israel killed all the prophets beause they disliked what the prophets wrote.

So we have the record that the majority of people did not accept: "thus saith the Lord".

Now you seem to be the extreme opposite. You have to have every single fulfillment to the letter, or it cannot ever be fulfilled.

In the example of Jonah. Was he a prophet declaring that God would destroy Nineveh?

"Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown."

Was that a prophecy? Did it happen? Was it conditional? Was Jonah killed as a false prophet? Jonah was not even killed, that we know of, for being disobedient to God.

"Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not? And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."

Don't turn my post into a dogmatic doctrine. It was just pointing out certain points of prophecy.

If Satan had repented or repents in the future, even Genesis 3:15 would have been conditional. Are you going to be dogmatic and prophecy that Satan will never repent to prove my point wrong?

I am not even one who claims Jesus did not set up the Millennium in the first century, because of the conditional promises of the Law. Even the Law is a veiled prophetic point of God's relationship with the nation of Israel. God promised to send blessings or cursing. That is being prophetic and conditional.

Why does truth have to be spelled out for you, for you to accept a point?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Are you saying that no prophet was ever stoned for giving a false report?

Seems to me Israel killed all the prophets beause they disliked what the prophets wrote.

So we have the record that the majority of people did not accept: "thus saith the Lord".

Now you seem to be the extreme opposite. You have to have every single fulfillment to the letter, or it cannot ever be fulfilled.

In the example of Jonah. Was he a prophet declaring that God would destroy Nineveh?

"Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown."

Was that a prophecy? Did it happen? Was it conditional? Was Jonah killed as a false prophet? Jonah was not even killed, that we know of, for being disobedient to God.

That is one example where a prophecy was conditional. And it was made clear that it was conditional. That doesn't mean all prophecy is conditional. That is clearly not the case. If any prophecy is conditional then it will say so. Otherwise, the prophecy is certain to be fulfilled as written. Period.

Do you think the prophecies about the return of Christ are conditional? Of course they're not! There is nothing to indicate that. He is coming again. Period. Nothing can stop that from happening. It is written.

 

[Timtofly]

So, you couldn't just enjoy the rare occasion that we agreed on something. You had to go and make more false accusations about what I believe instead. I most certainly do accept a Second Coming. That was a blatant lie for you to say that about me. And I believe the rapture occurs at that time. But, instead of coming down to the earth as we know it, I believe He will come down to a renewed (new) earth after He burns it up and renews it first. So, don't ever again say that I don't "accept an actual Second Coming". Just because I don't have the same understanding of it as you do doesn't mean I don't accept it.

If it is not to earth, how can it be a coming? That is just a basic definition of a word. Jesus came to earth in the first century. Jesus will come to earth at the Second Coming.

You are the one claiming a Coming not to earth. Jesus is already in the firmament. That is not a coming. That is just receiving those from off the earth. Why are you arguing against your own point?

You claim He steps on the earth after it is renewed, the only difference is that you have it destroyed and renewed in a blink of an eye. The point of pre-mill is that it is not totally replaced in a blink of an eye, because it was not fully destroyed.

Your view is so quick, what is the point of destroying it? Why not just make an already destroyed by man earth instantly new? Why explain the destruction that will never be witnessed by any one? According to you, the earth will be perfectly restored before any one knows it was even destroyed.

How is that returning to the Mount of Olives and rescuing Jerusalem from her enemies per Zechariah 14? If the earth is completely restored and no one even remembers the former earth, there will not even be a Jerusalem. The New Jerusalem is totally different from the current Jerusalem. There will be no mount of Olives on the new earth.

In fact that will be a first coming to a new earth, not a second coming to the current earth.

 

[Douggg]

The shortest length of a period of days in a set is a week

Tim, in Revelation 10:7, it doesn't say shortest, nor longest length of a period of days.

When the seventh angel sound his voice there are a little less than 42 months left in the 7 years. Not a 7 day week.

 

[Douggg]

You have the wrong Israel. It's spiritual Israel, not the nation of Israel. Who are the woman's children? Obviously, it refers to Jesus in Revelation 12:5. But, who else are her children?

The end times remnant of the Jews. And the nation born in a day is modern day Israel, May 14, 1948.

Isaiah 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

As soon as the great tribulation begins, the Jews, the children of Israel, Zion, turn to Jesus. As it indicates in Revelation 12:10.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

If it is not to earth, how can it be a coming?

I already explained this.

In fact that will be a first coming to a new earth, not a second coming to the current earth.

It's not a completely separate earth, though. It will be this earth made new.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The end times remnant of the Jews.

Why do you limit it to that? Revelation 12 indicates that the woman's offspring include Jesus and those who believe in Him. That's it. And those who believe in Him include Gentile believers. So, there's no basis for limiting the woman's offspring like this.

Isaiah 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

Christ's resurrection brought about the "holy nation" that Peter wrote about in 1 Peter 2:9 which consists of Christians both Jew and Gentile. You have the wrong nation and the wrong Zion in mind.

Hebrews 12:18 You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire...22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

As soon as the great tribulation begins, the Jews, the children of Israel, Zion, turn to Jesus.

Why would that be the case? Does He force them to believe in Him? No one there will have free will anymore at that point?

As it indicates in Revelation 12:10.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

When did salvation and the kingdom of our God come? Long ago by way of the death and resurrection of Christ. The kingdom of God came with power on the day of Pentecost shortly after that. There is no basis whatsoever for applying this verse to the future.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Tim, in Revelation 10:7, it doesn't say shortest, nor longest length of a period of days.

When the seventh angel sound his voice there are a little less than 42 months left in the 7 years. Not a 7 day week.

You're both wrong. There is no indication whatsoever that there will still be time left after the seventh trumpet sounds.

Revelation 11:15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.”

There is no indication whatsoever here of a time period of "a little less than 42 months" still occurring after this. The seventh trumpet will sound and immediately we will all be changed (1 Cor 15:50-54) and the kingdom of world will become the kingdom of the Father and His Messiah.