the Mark of the Beast, Daniel's 70th week, and Pastor Bill Macgregor

[Douggg]

Your rhetoric on Ezekiel 38-39 does not surmount 38:8.

Jerry, do you know what country this is the national flag of ?

 

[Super Kal]

The rapture/resurrection takes place earlier, before the great tribulation begins.

now i know why jerryjuerta calls you a dispensationalist, and to be completely honest, i have a hard time believing you aren't dispensational.

pre-tribulation is a requirement for dispensationalism

 

[Douggg]

now i know why jerryjuerta calls you a dispensationalist, and to be completely honest, i have a hard time believing you aren't dispensational.

pre-tribulation is a requirement for dispensationalism

Super Kal, I am a futurist, but not a dispensationalist. Some futurists are dispensationalists, but not all.

Dispensationalists subscribe to a system that divides the bible time into God appointed "dispensations" in how He deals with mankind. Generally, according that system there are seven dispensations. Innocence, Conscience, Human Government, Promise, Law, Grace, Millennial Kingdom.

You can go to Dispensationalism - Wikipedia and get a complete run down of when each of those dispensational ages begin and end - according to that system - which I don't subscribe to that system.

Every time from now on, when a person calls me a dispensationalist or infers that I am a dispenstationalist or am promoting dispensationalism or am getting my beliefs from dispenstationalists or from dispensationalism - I am going to report that post to the moderators, because I am not a dispensationalist and have stated so in my avatar information to the left. And I don't hold that system of belief.

If anyone has issues with dispensationalism or dispensationalists, take it up with others, not me. I am not interested in fighting that war one way or the other.

 

[Douggg]

pre-tribulation is a requirement for dispensationalism

I am also not pre-trib. I am anytime rapture view; a view I developed because of the shortcomings of all the traditional rapture views. If you look to the left at my profile it says "anytime rapture"

Here is a diagram of the timing of the anytime rapture view. The rapture can take place "anytime" between now and the day the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood - committing the transgression of desolation.

The rapture window is the shaded area.

The diagram below it is the pretrib rapture view, which is actually a misnomer as what is really meant is pre-70th week. Because pre-trib teachers take the view that the entire 70th week is what they call "the tribulation".

 

[Timtofly]

If Revelation 19 happens after the 42 months of the AoD, then the 42 months of the AoD is an event leading up to the Second Coming of Jesus, right ?

Not the Second Coming, and not the blooming of the fig tree. It does lead up to Jesus returning from Mount Sion, after leaving Jerusalem in Revelation 13:7.

"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

Jesus and the 144k were not killed. They were no longer in control, as Satan was handed all authority. Daniel 9:27 only happens if the Atonement is confirmed, and God says from foreknowledge that many or at least one human will choose to be beheaded. If there is not a single soul left who will be beheaded, because only God knows that, then the 42 months will not be necessary.

In Matthew 24, the blooming of the fig tree happens first, then the Second Coming, then the tribulation, and last the Aod, then comes the end.

Many here like to point out the Hebrew structure leading up to a point, and then back away from that point in reverse order, except they don't accept it here in Matthew 24.

Jesus reached the end in verse 14, and then worked backwards until the parable of the fig tree. Then Jesus said a few will still be alive to see all of the above.

Revelation has the chronological order just fine. Unfortunately it does not fit any modern day's eschatological bias, so they have to re-arrange Revelation to fit their presumptions.

 

[Insureman23]

so, I'll just come out and say it at the beginning so everyone knows how i view this, I'm personally a premillennial, futurist, post-trib. i understand there are others who would disagree with me, and im perfectly fine with that, that's why i dont want to limit who can respond. i would like to hear everyone's thoughts and opinions based on what they have searched and studied

in my search and study of eschatology, i've come across an individual named Pastor Bill MacGregor. now he himself is a post trib, pre wrath, however he does have some peculiar beliefs:

~ he believes that we are in Daniel's 70th week. He equates this due to his belief that the signing of the Abraham Accords was the start of Daniel's 70th week. He also thinks the Jared Kushner is the Antichrist, because it was Kushner who instigated the Abraham Accords.

~ he believes that the vaccine is the Mark of the Beast. he takes this stance based on his belief that the use of luciferase in the vaccine is what will trigger the mark once the use 5G is implemented.

~ he believes that the third seal is currently being opened with Biden and his inflation, while the first seal was Kushner promoting peace with the Abraham Accords, and the second seal being the vaccine.

~ because of his beliefs regarding Daniel's 70th week and the Antichrist, he has recently stated that he has been able to calculate when the rapture would take place: roughly 13 months from, IIRC, September of 2023. He has stated the exact date in some of his sermons, which are found exclusively on bit chute

~ in addition to the above, he has also stated that New York is the harlot of Babylon, New York will be destroyed due to a tsunami created by a nuclear explosion, there are 144,000 frozen Jews in Antarctica and will be unfrozen soon to spread the Gospel (i kid you not)

i would love to hear everyone's thought and opinions based on scriptures as to why this pastor may be right or wrong

I believe Daniel's last week is during the 7-year tribulation period in the book of Revelation. I do not believe we have quite arrived at that junction yet.

 

[Insureman23]

I am also not pre-trib. I am anytime rapture view; a view I developed because of the shortcomings of all the traditional rapture views. If you look to the left at my profile it says "anytime rapture"

Here is a diagram of the timing of the anytime rapture view. The rapture can take place "anytime" between now and the day the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood - committing the transgression of desolation.

The rapture window is the shaded area.

The diagram below it is the pretrib rapture view, which is actually a misnomer as what is really meant is pre-70th week. Because pre-trib teachers take the view that the entire 70th week is what they call "the tribulation".


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View attachment 320026

Nice charts. But I believe Paul told us the timing is 'at the last trump' being the last of the seven trumpets in Revelation which points to a mid-tribulation rapture in my view.

 

[Douggg]

Nice charts. But I believe Paul told us the timing is 'at the last trump' being the last of the seven trumpets in Revelation which points to a mid-tribulation rapture in my view.

Welcome to the forum, Insureman23.

 

[Insureman23]

Welcome to the forum, Insureman23.

Thank you, glad to be aboard.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

As a premillennialist, please list the events of the end times prophecies in the bible that precede Jesus's Second Coming in timeline order, so I can understand your eschatology take on events.


And what dispensation have you ever heard me saying we are in ?

I am not a dispensationalist. I am a futurist, but not a dispensationalist.

Doug, I kind of figured you would deny being a dispensationalist, but that’s because you obviously don’t grasp what it takes to be one. The sine qua non of dispensationalism is that they hold two separate mediations for the Church and Israel because they see them as separate bodies. God prophesied about Israel, while the Church was unforeseen in their doctrine.

Your doctrine fits with dispensationalism, hand in glove. You are a dispensationalist, no doubt.

Of course, Jeremiah 31:1-2, 27-28; Ezekiel 34:2, 9-10, 23-26; Isaiah 49:5-7; Hosea 2:14-23 and Matthew 13:24-30 destroy dispensationalism as well as preterism.

First of all, I see the return of Christ as the antitypical fulfillment of the Autumnal Festivals of the Feast of the Trumpets and Yom Kippur. The book of Joel provides significant evidence in deciphering the seven seals. You see, I go by the OT to figure out the eschatology, while dispensationalism and preterism fail in such matters. Only Historicism provides the proper presuppositions in order to decipher prophecy, especially the Revelation.

And again, you are not going to surmount Ezekiel 38:8. Ezekiel 38-39 clearly conforms to Revelation 20 as a phenomenon that succeeds the age to come.

 

[Timtofly]

And as a premillennialist, I’m appalled that you’re trying to get the phenomenon of Gog and Magog on this side of the 1000 years, in defiance that Revelation 20 establishes that it is after. Your futurist notions have you pervert prophecy and that is why your charts are just as appalling.

For one whose eschatology deals with the historical perspective, you should know that gog and magog are just non descriptive groups of people, for the Greeks. Like the term barbarian is for the Romans. For all we know, gog and magog were people's from the 10 lost tribes who never assimilated into a nation. Yes Gog and Magog historically were parts of Turkey. But it would be like talking about native Americans, who are also parts of the 10 lost tribes as are Koreans, Japanese, and the Eskimos.

Some of the tribes settled down and formed nations, some just kept wandering the earth for generations. Even the native Americans had nations and held territory, but many were migratory.

You all talk about Israel being spread across the earth, but never put any substance into that point for some reason. Alexander the great dealt with Gog and Magog. So the Gog and Magog in Ezekiel are not the Gog and Magog in Revelation 20. These are just people not part of any nation who find a leader and rally behind that leader. In the end of the 20th century guerilla warfare in the jungles would be the same phenomenon. Or the Taliban of the middle east.

It would seem Ezekiel's Gog and Magog already fizzled out over the last 14 years when they tried to remove the government of Syria to eventually get to Israel.

The end of Revelation 20 are people without sin nor a sin nature. They are just vulnerable to Satan's deception like Eve was. Has nothing to do with current government nor current humanity. Gog and Magog is an OT term used by John because the 7 letters were sent to 7 churches in modern day Turkey, who would understand the historical connotation. But it is certainly not always talking about people who lived on earth in 500BC. It is just a phenomenon those churches would understand, yet it was about humans, posters here even refuse to understand. They are too wrapped up in doctrine and theology, and project their ideology on to people living in the past, and or the future. And all of Revelation was future from the time it was written, so this rejection of a futurist mindset is not even logical, but as off base as some here trying to describe Gog and Magog.

We know there will be a war against Israel, because Zechariah 14 declares one. It does not say who. John declares war in the 4th Seal. John does not say who. Because no one is supposed to know the day of the Second Coming. It will be after normal tribulation, in the middle of normal war and strife. Revelation 6:7-8

"And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."

When this occurs, look up because your redemption draws near. Except no one on earth is going to see Death and sheol riding around on horses. That is the view from Paradise.

 

[Timtofly]

: all Dispensationalists are premillennialists, but not all premillennialists are Dispensationalists

Some Amil here are dispensationalist, because they segregate Gentiles prior to the Cross, and forbid them the chance to be physical Israel, or spiritual Israel for that matter. It is the only way they can logically place Satan being bound in the first century.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

For one whose eschatology deals with the historical perspective, you should know that gog and magog are just non descriptive groups of people, for the Greeks. Like the term barbarian is for the Romans. For all we know, gog and magog were people's from the 10 lost tribes who never assimilated into a nation. Yes Gog and Magog historically were parts of Turkey. But it would be like talking about native Americans, who are also parts of the 10 lost tribes as are Koreans, Japanese, and the Eskimos.

Some of the tribes settled down and formed nations, some just kept wandering the earth for generations. Even the native Americans had nations and held territory, but many were migratory.

You all talk about Israel being spread across the earth, but never put any substance into that point for some reason. Alexander the great dealt with Gog and Magog. So the Gog and Magog in Ezekiel are not the Gog and Magog in Revelation 20. These are just people not part of any nation who find a leader and rally behind that leader. In the end of the 20th century guerilla warfare in the jungles would be the same phenomenon. Or the Taliban of the middle east.

It would seem Ezekiel's Gog and Magog already fizzled out over the last 14 years when they tried to remove the government of Syria to eventually get to Israel.

The end of Revelation 20 are people without sin nor a sin nature. They are just vulnerable to Satan's deception like Eve was. Has nothing to do with current government nor current humanity. Gog and Magog is an OT term used by John because the 7 letters were sent to 7 churches in modern day Turkey, who would understand the historical connotation. But it is certainly not always talking about people who lived on earth in 500BC. It is just a phenomenon those churches would understand, yet it was about humans, posters here even refuse to understand. They are too wrapped up in doctrine and theology, and project their ideology on to people living in the past, and or the future. And all of Revelation was future from the time it was written, so this rejection of a futurist mindset is not even logical, but as off base as some here trying to describe Gog and Magog.

We know there will be a war against Israel, because Zechariah 14 declares one. It does not say who. John declares war in the 4th Seal. John does not say who. Because no one is supposed to know the day of the Second Coming. It will be after normal tribulation, in the middle of normal war and strife. Revelation 6:7-8

"And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."

When this occurs, look up because your redemption draws near. Except no one on earth is going to see Death and sheol riding around on horses. That is the view from Paradise.

Obviously, you hold an open theist perspective.

As I previously stated, Judeans and Ephraimites have been embracing their covenant, the one that Christ mediates (Hebrews 12:22-24), for the past 2000 years. Every Judean and Ephraimite that God has ordained to be saved has been saved since Christ’s first advent through the ordained vehicle of the Church. (See The Parable of the Wedding Feast.) This is upheld in the OT by the prophecies that Ephraim and Judah would find grace in the wilderness while sown throughout the world. (Note that the chapter below is in the context of the New Covenant).

At the same time, saith the LORD, will I be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be my people. Thus saith the LORD, The people which were left of the sword found grace in the wilderness; even Israel, when I went to cause him to rest… Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast. And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD. (Jeremiah 31:1-2, 27-28)​

The promise to sow both houses of Israel and to plant and care for them in the wilderness agrees with all the prophets and is the source of the prophecies of Christ in his parables, especially the parable of the wheat and the tares.

Now the gathering and restoration of Israel is a second advent event. Only the elect have a part in that and abide with Christ in the age to come, which makes God and Magog comprised of those damned to destruction, the second death.

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel. Romans 9:6​

 

[Douggg]

Nice charts. But I believe Paul told us the timing is 'at the last trump' being the last of the seven trumpets in Revelation which points to a mid-tribulation rapture in my view.

I don't think Paul was referring to the seventh trumpet in Revelation, but how the children of Israel knew to start moving after they had packed up ready to journey to the next place to camp - i.e. at the last trumpet, a metaphor for the raptured believers to move from earth to heaven.

In Revelation 4:1-2, John was caught up to heaven upon hearing a voice sounding like a trumpet, many think as a picture of the rapture.

Or it could be a series of trumpet blasts in heaven right before Jesus comes for the raptured believers and the resurrection of the Christians' bodies who have died up to that time.

 

[Timtofly]

The accuser, Satan, was cast out of heaven long ago which is why Paul indicated in Romans 8:31-35 that no one can accuse God's people of anything any longer. The reason for that should be obvious. Our sins are forgiven. What can anyone accuse us of that hasn't been forgiven?

Why would Satan accuse us of being naturally born into Adam's dead flesh?

Satan accused Job of living righteous, only because God was good to Job.

You are trying to say nothing is wrong with Christians, therefore Satan can no longer accuse us. The point Paul was making is that when Satan accuses us, Jesus reminds God that He is the Atonement. In Christ, we are no longer condemned, although many think we can "fall out" of Christ.

Satan points out our failures all the time. Unless you have turned guilt into a person, and replaced Satan with a being called guilt?

The point of the verse is about eternal security in Christ. Those in the Millennium do have eternal security, and cannot sin at all, nor have sin natures. Way more secure, than we who endure in Adam's dead corruptible flesh, who on our own, cannot please God, nor keep His commandments.

 

[Timtofly]

No, it's about the gathering of Christians to meet Christ in the air. He will only descend from heaven once in the future. There is no basis for thinking He will descend from heaven, go back and then later descend from heaven again. That is not taught anywhere in scripture.

There is a basis. You just don't accept that Satan has 100% control of the whole earth for 42 months, after the Second Coming. Certainly Satan is not in control 42 months leading up to the Second Coming. That would not be a thief in the night moment. People would just assume Satan will only get 42 months, and then Jesus comes and takes back authority. There is not a single reason why the church would have to all be beheaded, instead of raptured. But you think many can just work it all out not to receive the mark and be removed from the Lamb's book of life. People cannot even "work it out" in your phenomenon of Satan bound. How are they going to work it out when Satan and all his angels are on earth hunting down every last Christian?

 

[Douggg]

Doug, I kind of figured you would deny being a dispensationalist, but that’s because you obviously don’t grasp what it takes to be one.

Jerry, you are the guy who doesn't understand what it takes to be a dispensationalist. What do you think the 7 dispensations are that are the backbone of dispensationalism?

Your doctrine fits with dispensationalism, hand in glove. You are a dispensationalist, no doubt.

Jerry, you don't even know what dispenationalism is.

And your logic is all twisted. Using your logic, since you believe that Jesus is the messiah, and so do dispensationalists - then you, Jerry, are likewise a dispensationalist.

 

[Douggg]

First of all, I see the return of Christ as the antitypical fulfillment of the Autumnal Festivals of the Feast of the Trumpets and Yom Kippur. The book of Joel provides significant evidence in deciphering the seven seals. You see, I go by the OT to figure out the eschatology, while dispensationalism and preterism fail in such matters. Only Historicism provides the proper presuppositions in order to decipher prophecy, especially the Revelation.

The fall feasts that you refer to happen every year. And have been doing so ever since the days of Moses. They are not called time of the end events in the Tanach, i.e. old testament to you.

Your eschatology is missing in action, Jerry.

I'll give you a hint, Jerry, go look up the time of the end phrase in the book of Daniel, every place it is used.

 

[Douggg]

Jesus and the 144k were not killed. They were no longer in control, as Satan was handed all authority. Daniel 9:27 only happens if the Atonement is confirmed, and God says from foreknowledge that many or at least one human will choose to be beheaded. If there is not a single soul left who will be beheaded, because only God knows that, then the 42 months will not be necessary.

Tim, you are not communicating a rational order of events.

As an analogy, let me take the sentence "Joe Biden is the president of the United States". That sentence makes sense because the letters and spaces are all in an orderly rational fashion.

But taking the letters of that same sentence and presenting them as....

"BprrhedJaSotdistU"

.... it makes no sense at all. That's how you are coming across communication wise regarding eschatology.

 

[Insureman23]

I don't think Paul was referring to the seventh trumpet in Revelation, but how the children of Israel knew to start moving after they had packed up ready to journey to the next place to camp - i.e. at the last trumpet, a metaphor for the raptured believers to move from earth to heaven.

In Revelation 4:1-2, John was caught up to heaven upon hearing a voice sounding like a trumpet, many think as a picture of the rapture.

Or it could be a series of trumpet blasts in heaven right before Jesus comes for the raptured believers and the resurrection of the Christians' bodies who have died up to that time.

When do you believe the rapture occurs?