The Issue of Universalism and Possible Ultimate Release from Hell

[Confused-by-christianity]

So Jesus was either Just a man, or had no need to come and die to save mankind ... right?

[sigh]

Y'all have my sympathy, but you have "screwed up" something REALLY beautiful.

I’m sorry - I’m lost here ??? haha ????

How do you mean??

 

[atpollard]

I’m sorry - I’m lost here ??? haha ????

How do you mean??

OK.

You said THIS:

I've suffered with this question.

It never made sense to me.

Whats a sacrifice got to do with the price of oil? How can that satisfy ? How can it be payment for anything? Why would an innocent substitute do? Isn't it a bit of a wrath loophole etc etc??!!

In the end - i settled on this:
Paul / NT Author's trying to persuade people about Christ - were not ready to give up the sacrifice system yet. So they said "you need a sacrifice?? there it is, jesus!"

Nowadays - sacrifice (to me anyway) doesn't make any sense.

Is it fair to summarize your post as: Jesus' sacrifice was NOT necessary to "pay" for sin?
If not, then you will really need to explain your post line by line because it SURE sounds like it says that.
If so, then I responded with THIS:

So Jesus was either Just a man, or had no need to come and die to save mankind ... right?

Now you want to know "How do I mean?"
For argument, let us assume that I believe God is an S.O.B. for letting my baby brother get murdered when He had the power to prevent it (the "Problem of Evil").
Let us also assume that I am struck by a bus today and die.
Let us assume that you "Universalists" are correct and I suffer "age long" in Hell, and some how come out loving God and join God in Heaven.

As you stated in your post, "Whats a sacrifice got to do with the price of oil?" ... none was needed, so Jesus didn't need to die to get ME into Heaven, did he? (According to you, nobody needed to die.)
So what about this Jesus person that did die?

• Possibility #1: He was just a man and his death has nothing to do with salvation - since (as you say) "Whats a sacrifice got to do with the price of oil?"
• Possibility #2: Jesus was God and God Incarnate did die to save those that believe in Him ... but God didn't need to die because, like "reprobate me", they could have gone through "age long" hell and still arrived in Heaven.

So which is it? Was Jesus just some man or did God die when He didn't need to?
That is "How do I mean?"

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

OK.

You said THIS:

Is it fair to summarize your post as: Jesus' sacrifice was NOT necessary to "pay" for sin?
If not, then you will really need to explain your post line by line because it SURE sounds like it says that.
If so, then I responded with THIS:


Now you want to know "How do I mean?"
For argument, let us assume that I believe God is an S.O.B. for letting my baby brother get murdered when He had the power to prevent it (the "Problem of Evil").
Let us also assume that I am struck by a bus today and die.
Let us assume that you "Universalists" are correct and I suffer "age long" in Hell, and some how come out loving God and join God in Heaven.

As you stated in your post, "Whats a sacrifice got to do with the price of oil?" ... none was needed, so Jesus didn't need to die to get ME into Heaven, did he? (According to you, nobody needed to die.)
So what about this Jesus person that did die?

• Possibility #1: He was just a man and his death has nothing to do with salvation - since (as you say) "Whats a sacrifice got to do with the price of oil?"
• Possibility #2: Jesus was God and God Incarnate did die to save those that believe in Him ... but God didn't need to die because, like "reprobate me", they could have gone through "age long" hell and still arrived in Heaven.

So which is it? Was Jesus just some man or did God die when He didn't need to?
That is "How do I mean?"

i’ll be honest - I didn’t read this. Also, FYI, as a standard - I don’t read cut/paste bible verses - I skip right over them.

I guess I’m bored of the quibbling ???

Maybe I feel I’m wasting my time??

 

[atpollard]

i’ll be honest - I didn’t read this. Also, FYI, as a standard - I don’t read cut/paste bible verses - I skip right over them.

I guess I’m bored of the quibbling ???

Maybe I feel I’m wasting my time??

Not really surprising that someone confused by a single sentence would be overwhelmed by three short paragraphs explaining that sentence.
You are probably wasting both of our time, so "God bless you and keep you."

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

Not really surprising that someone confused by a single sentence would be overwhelmed by three short paragraphs explaining that sentence.
You are probably wasting both of our time, so "God bless you and keep you."

Am I getting a “talking down to” by another Christian??

I missed those !!!

hahaha

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

"God bless you and keep you."

if you don’t mean it - keep it to yourself

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

… probably wasting both of our time …

Yes - this conversation is idiotic and a waste of time ;-)

 

[Andrewn]

You should probably read the story of Lazarus and the rich man again. Abraham told the rich man it is not permitted for him to cross over.

1) This story is about the situation before Christ's crucifixion, resurrection, and glorification. 2) Lazarus and Rich were in 2 sections of Hades: Abraham's Bosom and the Spirit Prison, respectively. 3) Christ himself declared the Gospel in the Spirit Prison, and according to Orthodox Christian tradition, many believed and followed Him to Paradise. So, post-mortem salvation can take place.

That’s kind of a tall order since no scriptures refer to hell as a place of refinement. It’s a place of destruction and death.

Destruction and death of evil, not necessarily of all non-Christians.

The word “will” also means “desire”. Unfortunately because of free will God doesn’t always get what He wants from man. Man has always been a constant disappointment to Him despite His constant commandments for man to repent.

I agree God does not force his will on people. But He will find ways to convince them.

No this is merely based on human sentiment not scripture. What your saying is contradictory to what was actually written. You can surely bet everything you have that God will do exactly what He said He would do.

Yes, God will. But remember that He has not chosen to say everything clearly in the Bible. Otherwise, these discussions would not have gone on for millennia.

 

[BNR32FAN]

1) This story is about the situation before Christ's crucifixion, resurrection, and glorification. 2) Lazarus and Rich were in 2 sections of Hades: Abraham's Bosom and the Spirit Prison, respectively. 3) Christ himself declared the Gospel in the Spirit Prison, and according to Orthodox Christian tradition, many believed and followed Him to Paradise. So, post-mortem salvation can take place.


Destruction and death of evil, not necessarily of all non-Christians.


I agree God does not force his will on people. But He will find ways to convince them.


Yes, God will. But remember that He has not chosen to say everything clearly in the Bible. Otherwise, these discussions would not have gone on for millennia.

Universal reconciliation is not an Orthodox teaching and was anathematized in the 5th ecumenical council. Just because many people in the church thought it was orthodox doesn’t mean it actually was. Would you say that Arianism is orthodox because half of the believers in the church believed in it? Arianism was a lot more widely accepted than universalism.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

No, no, no,..... you made the statement to everyone as if this was a fact,.... well show us where scripture teaches that the lake of fire is a refining fire. If it is a truth associated with scripture,.... then we should see various passages that point this out.

Keep reading after that verse. After everything is judged, and the lake of fire is filled with the creations that need to be in there, Jesus on the throne says, look, I make everything new.

So unless annihilationism is true, then Jesus makes all of the creations new, including those in the lake of fire.

Furthermore, the lake of fire is called a second death. The epistle to the romans says all who die are set free from sin. It is a curious wording, if no release from sin is intrinsic of the lake of fire, then why is it characterized as a "Death?"

Something to consider.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Universal reconciliation is not an Orthodox teaching and was anathematized in the 5th ecumenical council. Just because many people in the church thought it was orthodox doesn’t mean it actually was. Would you say that Arianism is orthodox because half of the believers in the church believed in it? Arianism was a lot more widely accepted than universalism.

So it was anathematized by the very people who thought burning people at the stake was bringing glory to God , you mean those people?

 

[ARBITER01]

Keep reading after that verse. After everything is judged, and the lake of fire is filled with the creations that need to be in there, Jesus on the throne says, look, I make everything new.

So unless annihilationism is true, then Jesus makes all of the creations new, including those in the lake of fire.

Furthermore, the lake of fire is called a second death. The epistle to the romans says all who die are set free from sin. It is a curious wording, if no release from sin is intrinsic of the lake of fire, then why is it characterized as a "Death?"

Something to consider.

That's a whole heap of assumption there buddy.

If a person is not written in the book of life, they are none of His, period. There's no "except that he be purged in the lake of fire" sort of statement associated with that truth.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

That's a whole heap of assumption there buddy.

If a person is not written in the book of life, they are none of His, period. There's no "except that he be purged in the lake of fire" sort of statement associated with that truth.

In James it says we are to judge with mercy so we, in turn, can be judged with mercy.

Since "how it ends" is something God only knows, perhaps our perception of this matter is a test of our hearts?

 

[BNR32FAN]

So it was anathematized by the very people who thought burning people at the stake was bringing glory to God , you mean those people?

Nope the Orthodox Church never burned anyone at the stake.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

I am not accusing of “trivializing the gospel” … you are either deliberately or unintentionally missing the point. If all roads lead to God, then why CHRIST at all? Why not “nihilism” until death? What makes Islam or Hinduism false and Christianity true? By your own admission, Jesus is NOT the only “way” to God … universalism (BY DEFINITION) means that all roads lead to God.

How does one reconcile the MANY VERSES about “one way” with a belief that “all ways lead to God”? Which contradictory part of scripture is false?

[PS. “Please!” is not really a refutation of the criticism.]

You need to study up on what most people are saying, UR is not all roads lead to the same place . UR says what scripture does “no one comes to the Father but through me(Jesus). All must accept Jesus, either in this age or the age to come. It is a belief that fully comes from scripture, you might disagree on the interpretation of some words ( that is a horse that has been beaten to death) I have yet to see the idea that all roads lead to the same place from UR camp.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Nope the Orthodox Church never burned anyone at the stake.

You are correct, I was wrong. I looked it and read what it said .

 

[atpollard]

You need to study up on what most people are saying, UR is not all roads lead to the same place . UR says what scripture does “no one comes to the Father but through me(Jesus). All must accept Jesus, either in this age or the age to come. It is a belief that fully comes from scripture, you might disagree on the interpretation of some words ( that is a horse that has been beaten to death) I have yet to see the idea that all roads lead to the same place from UR camp.

Sorry, I choose not to participate in “tag team” matches. I had a conversation with the OP that ran its course. Tag in with someone else, because I have no interest in arguing on forever.
(I am too busy “studying up on what most people are saying” to read either scripture or your posts about my ignorance.)

[FYI: You completely missed the logical argument that I laid out. You are free to completely disagree with it, but you cannot ignore it and send me running off on a bunny trail of your choosing.]

 

[atpollard]

@Jeff Saunders
If you really want to have a conversation, stop straining gnats while swallowing camels and answer THIS a question:

If EVERYONE will be “purified” in ‘hell’ (or insert your term of choice), then why did Jesus need to come and die?​

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Sorry, I choose not to participate in “tag team” matches. I had a conversation with the OP that ran its course. Tag in with someone else, because I have no interest in arguing on forever.
(I am too busy “studying up on what most people are saying” to read either scripture or your posts about my ignorance.)

[FYI: You completely missed the logical argument that I laid out. You are free to completely disagree with it, but you cannot ignore it and send me running off on a bunny trail of your choosing.]

I hope you can find the answers you are looking for . I myself tried to prove UR false but after much reading I believe I was the one who was wrong. If you are interested in UR a good website to visit is forbiddentheology. Com

 

[Jeff Saunders]

@Jeff Saunders
If you really want to have a conversation, stop straining gnats while swallowing camels and answer THIS a question:

If EVERYONE will be “purified” in ‘hell’ (or insert your term of choice), then why did Jesus need to come and die?​

Jesus death was the only way that Yahweh has for us to get to the Father. Jesus said “ no one comes to the Father but through me” All people only get to the Father by faith in the finished work of Jesus either in this life or the next. That was why Jesus had to come and die.