Churches Dying

[2PhiloVoid]

Atheists like Alex O'Connor (who is probably the most intellectually articulate among atheists right now) have taken a softer stance, though, so I think hard-edged atheism's wave of post-911 religious phobia had crested.

I'm familiar with Alex O'Conner as I am with dozens of atheists, but I think his softer stance as you call it is more or less an Oxfordian comportment.

I agree that the 'New Atheism' of the Four Horsemen of Dawkins, Harris, Dennett and Hitchens has been somewhat replaced by the younger Millennial/Gen-Z podcasters, and you're probably right that the atheist's movement has crested somewhat, but I'm still looking at Pew Research and I'm not seeing things abating much, if at all, where resentment [and sheer disbelief] against Christianity has taken hold. .......even here on CF, the main reason we don't see the more vociferous atheists is because, as you know, they all got kicked off and shut down a year or two ago. Not because they chose to leave or became more 'moderate.'

 

[The Barbarian]

It's not as simple as some people think:

The Unlikely Rebound of Mainline Protestantism​

For the first time in decades, a study finds that white mainline Protestants outnumber white evangelicals in the U.S.

The Unlikely Rebound of Mainline Protestantism

For the first time in decades, a study finds that white mainline Protestants outnumber white evangelicals in the U.S.

www.newyorker.com

 

[RileyG]

If you mean appreciating their beauty, I agree. I should have been more clear. Attraction turns to lust when one starts lingering and fantasizing what they would like to see or do with them sexually. That we can control.

I agree!

 

[Kokavkrystallos]

Acting on homosexual desires is a sin and can't be debated on the site.

Christian behavior notwithstanding, we need to be honest with ourselves. Many people believe in God or want to relate with Him in some way but they want it on their terms.

Choosing to live in a homosexual relationship is an example of that. As is fornication and other things where permissiveness is acceptable. If you aren't trying to follow His precepts you aren't following Elohim. You're following a god you've constructed and saying otherwise.

Like it or not we have parameters. Just call yourself spiritual or eclectic or something along those lines. Don't lie to yourself.

~bella

Thanks. You answered some of what I was going to. I just got out of a Bible study where the teacher has no idea what I'm discussing on the forum. He went into Romans 1:18 - 23 and stopped there without going into the next part, which I alluded to earlier. Then he talked about how sinful humans want God on their terms, but He has His terms which are death and resurrection., and went to John 3:1-15.
Then he went to Matthew 16:24, "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me"

Deny self, and that means the lusts of self and fleshly desires. Even overeating....

I immediately thought of this topic here.
Romans 1:21 "Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened."

There is also the admonitions in Galatians 1 and 2 Corinthians 11 about another Jesus, another gospel, and Satan masquerading as an angel of light and his ministers as ministers of righteousness.

In churches I attend ANYONE is welcome, but they are going to hear the gospel preached in its fullness. Anyone involved in any known sin or blatant sin, no matter what it is will not be able to join the churches membership or take communion, at least in the Baptist church I go to. This is scriptural discipline. Now if someone is a member and falls into sin, that's different, and if they insist on persisting in that sin, they may be asked to leave till they repent of it in accordance with 1 Corinthians 5 church discipline. Doesn't matter what the sin if its a serious sin like a sexual sin, drug dealing, drunkenness, thieving - if it's habitual and not just a one time thing, some action will be taken, and with a lot of prayer, and in love.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Frankly speaking, I didn't realize until about 2015 there were so many Americans who identify as Christian but who also tote guns around for purposes other than old fashioned hunting ... with a theology accommodating those guns to boot.

Are Christians not allowed to own guns for purposes other than hunting?

Still, with the advent of Youtube atheism, I'm also concerned for Millennials and Gen Z since I don't think their spiritual aloofness hinges precisely or only upon LGBTQ issues.

New atheism is dead thankfully.

 

[bèlla]

Then he went to Matthew 16:24, "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me"

Denial is probably the tipping point. There's a correlation between submission and surrender in the mix. It always comes back to the pair. I think it's easier for some more than others. Submission is a heart thing. You want to follow them or you don't. Trust and all the rest begins with the other. Everything hinges on that question.

When you want to yield you must be willing to address your impediments to obedience and reactance. You must be willing to grasp that it isn't what one thinks but what the other says and that's a hard pill to swallow.

I did a lot of housekeeping in this area when I was in the world and delved into the why's behind my actions and how they impeded me in different ways. We had lengthy discussions on submission and service and explored it from different guises to challenge ourselves and help us develop a heart for service and a yielded spirit.

I think it's easier for me to submit to God because I've already answered the question in the natural in respect to a spouse. I don't have a lot of resistance. That doesn't mean I do it perfectly or I'm always obedient but my heart and mind are aligned to the that state and I think that's important.

If you want that constitution you have to have iron. You need likeminded souls who'll challenge you and keep you accountable. Their examples are helpful and you learn from one another. It's commonplace to have somethings overlooked depending on the company. You share a difficulty with your partner and everyone takes your side. If a mistake was made no one considers your response and that's a slippery slope.

That's when you need the iron to say yes, that was a mistake and we empathize and support you but...That's how we develop Christlikeness. The 'but' means everything.

Greater explorations in these areas would be beneficial. We're servants not equals.

In churches I attend ANYONE is welcome, but they are going to hear the gospel preached in its fullness. Anyone involved in any known sin or blatant sin, no matter what it is will not be able to join the churches membership or take communion, at least in the Baptist church I go to.

That's good to hear. I live around a lot of churches but the majority have compromised. I've learned to look at the staff, read the descriptions and explore their policies. I won't sit under wrong teachings.

~bella

 

[dzheremi]

It's not as simple as some people think:

The Unlikely Rebound of Mainline Protestantism​

For the first time in decades, a study finds that white mainline Protestants outnumber white evangelicals in the U.S.

The Unlikely Rebound of Mainline Protestantism

For the first time in decades, a study finds that white mainline Protestants outnumber white evangelicals in the U.S.

www.newyorker.com

As a wayyyy former Presbyterian (ages 0 to about 14), I appreciate this unlikely turn of events.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Are Christians not allowed to own guns for purposes other than hunting?

My comment wasn't aimed at the topic of gun ownership.

New atheism is dead thankfully.

Maybe where you are it is.

 

[FireDragon76]

As a wayyyy former Presbyterian (ages 0 to about 14), I appreciate this unlikely turn of events.

People identifying as mainline Protestant are increasing, but actual attendance at Mainline churches hasn't improved, for the most part. My guess is alot of people don't really understand the meaning of the term "Mainline", and are choosing instead to distance themselves from the word "Evangelical".

 

[dzheremi]

People identifying as mainline Protestant are increasing, but actual attendance at Mainline churches hasn't improved, for the most part. My guess is alot of people don't really understand the meaning of the term "Mainline", and are choosing instead to distance themselves from the word "Evangelical".

Well that's a shame, in that case. Not that I can't see why someone would do that (the term "Evangelical" does seem pretty tainted, at least in the U.S. context), but 'reactive' identification like this (e.g., "Of course I'm Orthodox...well I'm not going to be Roman Catholic!" ) tends to be a pretty good harbinger of future disillusionment/disaffiliation, since after all wherever such people end up will also be full of people and things that they don't like, since that's just the nature of being around people and/or being part of an organization where your likes and dislikes are not the priority. I think that's where the wisdom of "Make sure you're converting to something, not away from something else" is supposed to kick in.

 

[FireDragon76]

Well that's a shame, in that case. Not that I can't see why someone would do that (the term "Evangelical" does seem pretty tainted, at least in the U.S. context), but 'reactive' identification like this (e.g., "Of course I'm Orthodox...well I'm not going to be Roman Catholic!" ) tends to be a pretty good harbinger of future disillusionment/disaffiliation, since after all wherever such people end up will also be full of people and things that they don't like, since that's just the nature of being around people and/or being part of an organization where your likes and dislikes are not the priority. I think that's where the wisdom of "Make sure you're converting to something, not away from something else" is supposed to kick in.

People probably confuse "Mainline" with "mainstream". Now days, something vaguely like Evangelicalism is arguably mainstream among US Protestants, as far as actual religious participation goes. However, Mainline has a specific meaning, and is named after geography in Pennsylvania, where you used to see alot of these types of churches along the railroad suburbs around Philadelphia in Pennsylvania. They were descended from old, historic American denominations like Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Methodists, Disciples of Christ, and American Baptists and Congregationalists.

 

[dzheremi]

I'm not sure that this would directly apply to the people who are identifying as "Mainline" now, but I have noticed exactly the confusion you mention (concerning "Mainline" = "mainstream") among Mormons, of all people, on this very website. Back when the "Debate Other Religions" subforum was still open, it was not infrequent that one of our Christian posters would have to explain to the Mormons that they ought not use "Mainline" for "mainstream", for exactly the reasons you've mentioned in your reply. So I am not surprised to see that confusion pop up in other contexts. It seems like an easy fix, but I guess it is difficult to get people to change their way of speaking or writing once they already have a fixed idea of what a word means, even if that idea is not well-informed or true to the historical (and present!) usage. Call it linguistic evolution, if you must.

 

[dzheremi]

New atheism is dead thankfully.

How can it be dead when "New Atheism" is just old atheism via new technological means (YouTube, TikTok, etc.)? It's not like "New Coke" vs. "Old Coke", if that debacle ever reached your country. They haven't actually changed the 'recipe' all that much, just the means of delivery.

 

[The Barbarian]

People identifying as mainline Protestant are increasing, but actual attendance at Mainline churches hasn't improved, for the most part. My guess is alot of people don't really understand the meaning of the term "Mainline", and are choosing instead to distance themselves from the word "Evangelical".

The brand seems forever tainted, even if many evangelicals are disgusted with the politicization and subsequent corruption of their denominations.

 

[FireDragon76]

How can it be dead when "New Atheism" is just old atheism via new technological means (YouTube, TikTok, etc.)? It's not like "New Coke" vs. "Old Coke", if that debacle ever reached your country. They haven't actually changed the 'recipe' all that much, just the means of delivery.

The original New Atheism was riding off a wave of anti-religious prejudice and fear among some educated people in American society, post 9/11.

 

[lismore]

Colossians 1:6 In the same way, the gospel is bearing fruit and growing throughout the whole world—just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and truly understood God’s grace.

IMHO the key to life and vibrancy in a church is keeping the gospel message at the centre of church teaching and activities. Wherever the gospel is shared there is fruit. No gospel=no fruit. God Bless All

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

How can it be dead when "New Atheism" is just old atheism via new technological means (YouTube, TikTok, etc.)? It's not like "New Coke" vs. "Old Coke", if that debacle ever reached your country. They haven't actually changed the 'recipe' all that much, just the means of delivery.

When I say new Atheism is dead, I mean the militant atheism which believes that science can solve all problems in life as represented by Dawkins and his ilk. It's not that Atheism itself is dead but the specific belief in a sort of rationalistic scientism is and has been superseded by a belief system of universal egalitarianism.

 

[Kokavkrystallos]

Denial is probably the tipping point. There's a correlation between submission and surrender in the mix. It always comes back to the pair. I think it's easier for some more than others. Submission is a heart thing. You want to follow them or you don't. Trust and all the rest begins with the other. Everything hinges on that question.

When you want to yield you must be willing to address your impediments to obedience and reactance. You must be willing to grasp that it isn't what one thinks but what the other says and that's a hard pill to swallow.

I did a lot of housekeeping in this area when I was in the world and delved into the why's behind my actions and how they impeded me in different ways. We had lengthy discussions on submission and service and explored it from different guises to challenge ourselves and help us develop a heart for service and a yielded spirit.

I think it's easier for me to submit to God because I've already answered the question in the natural in respect to a spouse. I don't have a lot of resistance. That doesn't mean I do it perfectly or I'm always obedient but my heart and mind are aligned to the that state and I think that's important.

If you want that constitution you have to have iron. You need likeminded souls who'll challenge you and keep you accountable. Their examples are helpful and you learn from one another. It's commonplace to have somethings overlooked depending on the company. You share a difficulty with your partner and everyone takes your side. If a mistake was made no one considers your response and that's a slippery slope.

That's when you need the iron to say yes, that was a mistake and we empathize and support you but...That's how we develop Christlikeness. The 'but' means everything.

Greater explorations in these areas would be beneficial. We're servants not equals.



That's good to hear. I live around a lot of churches but the majority have compromised. I've learned to look at the staff, read the descriptions and explore their policies. I won't sit under wrong teachings.

~bella

I've got some good churches in my area, and to my knowledge none of those so called "rainbow" churches, you know, with the flag out front and marching in "Pride" demonstrations. I couldn't believe my eyes when I started seeing that a few years back. It's amazing because of what the Scriptures say about Pride - as we know, Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall, as is written in Proverbs.

You start seeing stuff like this and you wonder how close we are to Jesus return?

Kind of diametrically opposed there: a cross which is the ultimate symbol of sacrifice and humility, and the word Pride written up on it with rainbow colors. This thing was erected at Mount Sequoyah Arkansas in 2021. Now my old rebel self might have dumped a bucket of scarlet red paint on the detestable thing and given it its real symbolism. Alas, I just pray for the lost souls who are involved in all this.

During Sabbath service today I was led to 2 Peter 1:16, " For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty."

And 2 Peter 2:1-3, "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not"

Covetousness doesn't necessarily mean money or material possessions, but coveting of ANYTHING, including a particular lifestyle that is in direct opposition to God's Word and His will. This is funny. I was just going to use the example of fishing because I like fishing, but you can over do it. So I looked up coveting definition and got "yearn to possess or have (something). "he covets time for exercise and fishing"" LOL! Now that's not a sinful pastime at all, BUT you can become obsessed with it, taking weekends off to go fish and neglect church, and some men even neglect family to go fishing, or go to the gym. In such cases it becomes sin. And I've done that. I didn't even intentionally mean to do it, but I coveted fishing and filling my whole fridge full, and going out on the lake every day that I neglected all else. That was over 30 years ago.
Hindsight 20/20

Certainly coveting any relationships that are not of God would fall under coveting. This is not being legalistic - it's being real.
2 Peter 3:16, "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

Some people don't know I've been on the super liberal side before. I failed to warn as the watchman of Ezekiel, and I let so many pursue wicked ways without saying a word, nor witnessing Christ. I even portrayed myself as pagan for awhile, and as most people know, paganism is rife with immorality of all sorts. I even said the Holy Spirit was the goddess Sophia of the gnostics, and became gnostic in my beliefs. I joined in an unequal yoke with a girl who was pagan too. I even made fun of Fundamentalists and Christianity in general, adopting the exact same stance that the liberals now do, saying Jesus would be Ok with all this junk. Yet I was not satisfied and kept seeking more and more drink, and more and more so called intimacy until I said "Sex isn't all it's cracked up to be" because it was so dissatisfying because I was living in great sin and headed for a mighty fall!

Oh, I was thinking about this topic and wrote this note, "I think the parameters of the forum rules allow defence of the faith showing the Scriptural standard regarding sexuality, but you cannot promote homosexuality."
Even in the Liberal Forum these rules still apply:

• Members may not make posts which could be considered blatant campaigning for the acceptance of homosexuality or SSM.
• Members may not distribute any blatant propaganda about homosexuality or SSM [propaganda: information of a biased or misleading nature used to promote or publicize a particular point of view].

 

[PloverWing]

Oh, I was thinking about this topic and wrote this note, "I think the parameters of the forum rules allow defence of the faith showing the Scriptural standard regarding sexuality, but you cannot promote homosexuality."
Even in the Liberal Forum these rules still apply:

• Members may not make posts which could be considered blatant campaigning for the acceptance of homosexuality or SSM.
• Members may not distribute any blatant propaganda about homosexuality or SSM [propaganda: information of a biased or misleading nature used to promote or publicize a particular point of view].

The rule about discussion of homosexuality in this forum is stronger than that: "Discussion and debate should only be directed toward political, legal, historical and civil rights issues, and should not be directed toward the morality of homosexuality, same-sex marriage, bisexuality or transgenderism/transexualism." So "defence of the faith showing the Scriptural standard regarding sexuality" is also prohibited in this forum, and in most forums on CF.

(Statement of Purpose - Current News & Events Statement of Purpose)

 

[Kokavkrystallos]

The rule about discussion of homosexuality in this forum is stronger than that: "Discussion and debate should only be directed toward political, legal, historical and civil rights issues, and should not be directed toward the morality of homosexuality, same-sex marriage, bisexuality or transgenderism/transexualism." So "defence of the faith showing the Scriptural standard regarding sexuality" is also prohibited in this forum, and in most forums on CF.

(Statement of Purpose - Current News & Events Statement of Purpose)

I knew it should have perhaps been posted in another forum.