The Ghastly Eternal Torment Dogma

[Saint Steven]

...Paul described the act of treating wickedness with kindness...

Here's the irony.
We understand this to be godly behavior, "treating wickedness with kindness"; but then blame the "damned" for what God will do to them in the hell that God created. Which includes the worst sadistic torture imaginable. (burning in fire and brimstone for eternity with no hope of escape) Even for those who have never so much as heard the name of Jesus. What's wrong with this picture? Does God measure up to His own standard of godliness?

Matthew 5:43-48
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

[Saint Steven]

In short, Biblically speaking, the perceived universalist passages do not outweigh the eternally lost principle's proof-texts.

Welcome to the forum.
That's an interesting choice of words.

My understanding of the term "proof-text" is negative.
It means going to the Bible with a preconceived theory and looking for biblical proof to support your preconceived theory.

This is why the forum is filled with disagreements with "proof-texts" supporting both sides of an argument. (preconceived theory)

What happens if we let the "universalist passages" speak for themselves? Rather than pitch them in the trash because they don't fit the "preconceived theory"?

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:3-4
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved
and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Dear Ben: My brother I have no idea where you have arrived at the 77 fold 7 to 1 ratio?

Sorry brother, I meant 70 times 7-fold. God has not blessed me with an aptitude for accounting! Thank you Lord.

For normal peeps it most assuredly would be a fantastic improvement over the lose, lose, lose idea our Master gathers up leftover pieces of miracle fish & bread that NOTHING be lost, but alas, the broken species of our race is not quite so important.

The reckless generosity of the Father is too much for the Prodigal brother. The day workers are indignant that the latecomers received the same wage. And as for that thief on the cross, what an aberration.

This old bedraggled, bruised and broken peep of diminishing eyesight, hearing and sound mind, to name the least of the vast former arsenal, will not settle for such dismal return! NOT!

Even God's parsimony is more generous than man. And when does a father, even we who are evil, give his children nasty things?

Yup! 100% success of reconciliation!

Thank you brother, as it turns out accounting skills are not required!

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I really like that term, "binary sentences". (bold emphasis in your quote mine)
It seems that the judgment will not be black and white, single issue, on/off, in or out.

In fact, if that was the case, there would be no need for judgment. What's to decide? You are either on the guest list or you are not.

True, God could set up an automated telephone justice dispensary:

Romans 2:14-16
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

He who searches the hearts and the minds will cleanse us of all unrighteousness. Behold His voice is like a hammer that shatters rock, but breaks not a bruised reed nor quenches a dim candle.

 

[Saint Steven]

Even God's parsimony is more generous than man. And when does a father, even we who are evil, give his children nasty things?

Let's explore that one.
Would we consider the Golden Rule to be godly behavior? (god-like behavior)

If the Golden Rule sums up the Law and the Prophets, would God then do unto others as he would have them do unto Him by sending them to endless torment? The Damnationists would say the Golden Rule only applies to humankind, God can be as tyrannical as he wishes. After all, He's God; who could stop Him?

Matthew 7:9-12
“Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Let's explore that one.
Would we consider the Golden Rule to be godly behavior? (god-like behavior)

If the Golden Rule sums up the Law and the Prophets, would God then do unto others as he would have them do unto Him by sending them to endless torment? The Damnationists would say the Golden Rule only applies to humankind, God can be as tyrannical as he wishes. After all, He's God; who could stop Him?

That's why it's 'fides et ratio'. Because it has to work.

'Do unto others' for damnationists, can readily be applied on a personal moral interpretation mean 'If you don't accept my love I'll give you hell, and you deserve it,' or even 'Get em before they get you'. Rationalised as 'Just doing as the father does, being (ahem) 'perfect''.

Why it's such a dangerous doctrine of demons, because the temptation is there, the drag of the moral compass off course.

 

[Saint Steven]

That's why it's 'fides et ratio'. Because it has to work.

'Do unto others' for damnationists, can readily be applied on a personal moral interpretation mean 'If you don't accept my love I'll give you hell, and you deserve it,' or even 'Get em before they get you'. Rationalised as 'Just doing as the father does, being (ahem) 'perfect''.

Why it's such a dangerous doctrine of demons, because the temptation is there, the drag of the moral compass off course.

Your comment about compass reminded me of the compass options in architectural plans.
There is a "true north" and a "plan north".
If the plan is easier to draw or read in plan north, they use that, otherwise the assumption is true north.
The Damnationists have bought into a plan north reading without considering true north.

 

[DNB]

Dear DNB: Your two soteriological positions lack two words.

"But God"

My one position, minus the soteriological part=

God loves me, this I know. He will not let us go, He will not ever stop loving us, ever!

“A lost sheep is, for all practical purposes a dead sheep. It is the admission that we are dead in our sins—that we have no power of ourselves either to save ourselves or to convince anyone else that we are worth saving. It is the recognition that our whole life is out of our hands and that if we ever live again, our life will be entirely the gift of some gracious shepherd. God finds us the desert of death (not in the garden of improvement) and in the power of Jesus’ resurrection, he puts us on his shoulders rejoicing and brings us home.” -Robert Farrar Capon-

Well FL, there are profound enemies of Christ. Those who killed Christians, those who suppressed the truth, and those who worshiped Satan, those who blasphemed God, etc... The weeping and gnashing of teeth, as far as the gnashing is concerned, refers to those who are still raising their fist and cursing God, even after seeing his manifold power.

Revelation 16:10-11
16:10. Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became darkened; and they gnawed their tongues because of pain, 11. and they blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores; and they did not repent of their deeds.

The love of God refers to the option of grace that he offered us sinners. That is enough to manifest his love. Sending those away who do not want God, does not diminish his love.

 

[DNB]

Here's the irony.
We understand this to be godly behavior, "treating wickedness with kindness"; but then blame the "damned" for what God will do to them in the hell that God created. Which includes the worst sadistic torture imaginable. (burning in fire and brimstone for eternity with no hope of escape) Even for those who have never so much as heard the name of Jesus. What's wrong with this picture? Does God measure up to His own standard of godliness?

Matthew 5:43-48
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

But have I not described the torture as self-inflicted? You just said that it's Godly behaviour to do what Paul prescribed, and that his grounds for doing so was explained with imagery, and then you do a 180° and make it literal?
My point was, there is no fire & brimstone, these are metaphors, and that God is not raising a hand against those who rejected them, but rather that their pain is derived from their own guilt and remorse.
You didn't address a thing that I said?

 

[FineLinen]

Well FL, there are profound enemies of Christ. Those who killed Christians, those who suppressed the truth, and those who worshiped Satan, those who blasphemed God, etc... The weeping and gnashing of teeth, as far as the gnashing is concerned, refers to those who are still raising their fist and cursing God, even after seeing his manifold power.

Revelation 16:10-11
16:10. Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became darkened; and they gnawed their tongues because of pain, 11. and they blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores; and they did not repent of their deeds.

The love of God refers to the option of grace that he offered us sinners. That is enough to manifest his love. Sending those away who do not want God, does not diminish his love.

Dear DNB: There are zero options in the One who is the Beginning & the Ending. We are all enemies until He by His profound love makes us friends.

Jesus said, “I am the Bread of Life. The person who aligns with me hungers no more and thirsts no more, ever. I have told you this explicitly because even though you have seen me in action, you don’t really believe me. Every person the Father gives me eventually comes running to me. And once that person is with me, I hold on and don’t let go. I came down from heaven not to follow my own whim but to accomplish the will of the One who sent me.

“This, in a nutshell, is that will: that everything handed over to me by the Father be completed—not a single detail missed—and at the wrap-up of time I have everything and everyone put together, upright and whole. This is what my Father wants: that anyone who sees the Son and trusts who he is and what he does and then aligns with him will enter real life, eternal life. My part is to put them on their feet alive and whole at the completion of time.” -The Message-

 

[DNB]

Welcome to the forum.
That's an interesting choice of words.

My understanding of the term "proof-text" is negative.
It means going to the Bible with a preconceived theory and looking for biblical proof to support your preconceived theory.

This is why the forum is filled with disagreements with "proof-texts" supporting both sides of an argument. (preconceived theory)

What happens if we let the "universalist passages" speak for themselves? Rather than pitch them in the trash because they don't fit the "preconceived theory"?

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:3-4
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved
and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Everyone, except Reformed Theology, understand that the God's grace is available to all, and that God is attempting to separate the sheep from the goats, or the penitent from the reprobate, by seeing who will accept his forgiveness or not. The passages that you quoted neither negate or undermine the non-universalist position. I preach Christ to everyone, in hope that some may see the Light, while the whole time never knowing who will accept the Gospel, and who will disdain it.
There are those who have pledged allegiance to Satan, and to all his constructs and conventions, God is trying to weed these devils out. And, their actions and demise are set as examples for us to understand good & evil, and God in his full glory (holiness, love, righteousness and justice).

Not to mention Steven, you did not present a very balanced Biblical testimony to this controversy. As I trust you are aware, there are a myriad of verses that, in and of themselves, support eternal retribution. You are obligated to explain those in order to have a comprehensive case in your favour.
I explained how i interpret yours. So, for example, I would expect an explanation of all the 'weeping and gnashing teeth' passages (just for starters)?

 

[FineLinen]

Everyone, except Reformed Theology, understand that the God's grace is available to all, and that God is attempting to separate the sheep from the goats..

Dear DNB: Both the sheep & the goats are His. They are both clean animals. The grace of God is not simply "available to all", His grace and love from which it flows in unrelenting waves reaches His objective.

God attempts NOTHING! He has designed a Plan that is flawless (within Himself) and shall be consummated in every last detail to His satisfaction!

“…Nothing can be lost that is not first owned. Just as a parent is compelled by civil law to be responsible for his family and his property, so the Creator --by His own divine law–in compelled to take care of the children He has created. And that means not only caring for the good children, but for the bad ones and lost ones as well. So the word lost came to be for Mrs. Smith (Hannah W. Smith), a term of greatest comfort. If a person is a “lost sinner” it only means that he is temporarily separated from the Good Shepherd who owns him. The Shepherd is bound by all duties of ownership to go after all those who are lost until they are found.” -Catherine Marshall-

 

[DNB]

Dear DNB: There are zero options in the One who is the Beginning & the Ending. We are all enemies until He by His profound love makes us friends.

Jesus said, “I am the Bread of Life. The person who aligns with me hungers no more and thirsts no more, ever. I have told you this explicitly because even though you have seen me in action, you don’t really believe me. Every person the Father gives me eventually comes running to me. And once that person is with me, I hold on and don’t let go. I came down from heaven not to follow my own whim but to accomplish the will of the One who sent me.

“This, in a nutshell, is that will: that everything handed over to me by the Father be completed—not a single detail missed—and at the wrap-up of time I have everything and everyone put together, upright and whole. This is what my Father wants: that anyone who sees the Son and trusts who he is and what he does and then aligns with him will enter real life, eternal life. My part is to put them on their feet alive and whole at the completion of time.” -The Message-

Sorry FL, you're not addressing the arguments or passages against your view. You're revealing a slight stubborness at the moment. We all know that God loves everyone, ...and that loves manifests itself in various ways.

Proverbs 13:24. He who withholds his rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines him diligently.
Hebrews 12:6. FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES."

Meaning, people get what they need, and what they deserve. Love does not spoil a child, nor deprives them of discipline and correction.
Your arguments and proof-texts are extremely one sided.

 

[FineLinen]

Sorry FL, you're not addressing the arguments or passages against your view. You're revealing a slight stubborness at the moment. We all know that God loves everyone, ...and that loves manifests itself in various ways.

Proverbs 13:24. He who withholds his rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines him diligently.
Hebrews 12:6. FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES."

Meaning, people get what they need, and what they deserve. Love does not spoil a child, nor deprives them of discipline and correction.

Your arguments and proof-texts are extremely one sided.

Dear DNB: The Father of all fathers, Abba dearest Daddy, has one objective and one objective only with His children (the good, the bad, & the ugly) change & transformation leading to His point of view!

God is love & Love never fails EVER!

 

[DNB]

Dear DNB: Both the sheep & the goats are His. They are both clean animals. The grace of God is not simply "available to all", His grace and love from which it flows in unrelenting waves reaches His objective.

God attempts NOTHING! He has designed a Plan that is flawless (within Himself) and shall be consummated in every last detail to His satisfaction!

“…Nothing can be lost that is not first owned. Just as a parent is compelled by civil law to be responsible for his family and his property, so the Creator --by His own divine law–in compelled to take care of the children He has created. And that means not only caring for the good children, but for the bad ones and lost ones as well. So the word lost came to be for Mrs. Smith (Hannah W. Smith), a term of greatest comfort. If a person is a “lost sinner” it only means that he is temporarily separated from the Good Shepherd who owns him. The Shepherd is bound by all duties of ownership to go after all those who are lost until they are found.” -Catherine Marshall-

But his plan was to reject some. If they're getting what they deserve, then there's no offense on God's part. With all due respect, I think that you're failing to see the egregiousness, and unmitigating aspect of the reprobate's sins? You're unevenly stressing God's love, without expounding on the full ramifications of love, or of his holiness and justice. Or, the verses that stress these factors.

 

[DNB]

Dear DNB: The Father of all fathers, Abba dearest Daddy, has one objective and one objective only with His children (the good, the bad, & the ugly) change & transformation leading to His point of view!

God is love & Love never fails EVER!

Love also punishes and rejects when required. All the pain and suffering on this earth would have absolutely no meaning, if it wasn't a trial period to segregate the saved from the unsaved. All the murders, rapes, genocides, kidnappings, blasphemies, inappropriate contentographies, etc... would serve no purpose if there wasn't a devil, and those who abide by his ways and reject the Father's ways, and thus, a qualifying period.
The tree of the knowledge of good and evil, set the standard in the beginning. There is a dichotomy that exists in both the spiritual realm, and the human realm. God is exposing the intrinsic polarity that exists whenever love and righteousness is present and matters.

 

[FineLinen]

But his plan was to reject some. If they're getting what they deserve, then there's no offense on God's part. With all due respect, I think that you're failing to see the egregiousness, and unmitigating aspect of the reprobate's sins? You're unevenly stressing God's love, without expounding on the full ramifications of love, or of his holiness and justice. Or, the verses that stress these factors.

Dear DNB: His Plan is encapsulated in the miracle of feeding many thousands. The instruction from the Master to His disciples at the close=

"Gather up the fragments that remain that nothing be lost/ apollumi."

The Saviour of all mankind does not care for leftover pieces of bread & fish more than the broken for whom He is the at-one-ment.

 

[FineLinen]

Love also punishes and rejects when required.

Nope!

Love never fails. Punishment of Abba produces the peaceable fruits of righteousness.

No rejection of the good, the bad or the ugly: change & transformation of at-one-ment.

 

[DNB]

Dear DNB: His Plan is encapsulated in the miracle of feeding many thousands. The instruction from the Master to His disciples at the close=

"Gather up the fragments that remain that nothing be lost/ apollumi."

The Saviour of all mankind does not care for leftover pieces of bread & fish more than the broken for whom He is the at-one-ment.

There's a slight side of me that wishes that you were correct, but both biblically and righteously speaking, I don't believe that it would be the most holiest and just policy, to disregard all the crimes and atrocities of man as though nothing happened, and that Martin Luther and Hitler will walk hand-in-hand into heaven?

 

[DNB]

Nope!

Love never fails. Punishment of Abba produces the peaceable fruits of righteousness.

No rejection of the good, the bad or the ugly: change & transformation of at-one-ment.

Nope, some people are incorrigible!