The Ghastly Eternal Torment Dogma

[Der Alte]

Jesus said thrown into the deep sea. In other words? No funeral. Gone and never seen again! No one will remember that one anymore. Wiped from memory.

I agree completely but Jesus said that would be better than the punishment they would receive for offending one of His followers.
Also in Hebrews is another warning about a fate worse than death.

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.​

 

[GenemZ]

I agree completely but Jesus said that would be better than the punishment they would receive for offending one of His followers.
Also in Hebrews is another warning about a fate worse than death.

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.​

The millstone ... Jesus was addressing child abuse specifically. Child abuse was rampant in the Roman culture, and some Jews too had this insidious sin amongst its own.

 

[Saint Steven]

God does not want Evil to have eternal life.

If that is true then there is no forever burning hell.
A forever burning hell is eternal life for evil.

 

[Der Alte]

...

If that is true then there is no forever burning hell.
A forever burning hell is eternal life for evil.

"Aionios Zoe" does not only refer to duration but quality. Passages which show the unrighteous dead having some kind of conscious awareness.
…..In Isa 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, pfft, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.​

In this passage God, himself, is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
…..Some will argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative.
…..The Hebrew word םשל/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.
…..The Jews considered this passage to be factual.

Jewish Encyclopedia-Gehenna
“When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10).”
GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com​

…..Here is another passage where God, Himself, is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.​

Jesus speaking, in the NT a dead man in Hades had eyes, was in torment, saw Abraham, “cried and said,” asked for water, begged Abraham, etc.

Luk 16:22-28
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
(28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.​

 

[GenemZ]

I agree completely but Jesus said that would be better than the punishment they would receive for offending one of His followers.
Also in Hebrews is another warning about a fate worse than death.

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.​

Hebrews 6:4-6 is a different animal...

Remember how the Church in Jerusalem convinced Paul to partake of a purification ritual in the Temple? That ritual would have taken about a month to complete finishing with a very expensive sacrifice of an oxen. Paul got caught by the religious Jews and almost killed him if not rescued by the Roman guards...

Well? What was that church in Jerusalem doing? They were rejecting the death of Christ as the atonement and continued to offer animal blood sacrifices in the Temple. That is what the warning was about concerning Hebrews 6:4-6!

The author of Hebrew was warning those who were maturing in grace and truth to stop wasting their time too get these religious Jewish believers to repent./ For they have already been saved and experienced tasting of the filling the Spirit, only to return to their old ways. At that point? It would be impossible to get these apostate Jewish believers to change their thinking. So.. Instead of frustrating themselves trying to convince the apostates? The writer of Hebrews encourages them to move on and continue to mature in Christ.

7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces
a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing
of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless
and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced
of better things in your case—the things that have to do with
salvation. 10 God is not unjust; he will not forget your work
and the love you have shown him as you have helped his
people and continue to help them. Hebrews 6:7-10​

Though these Jewish believers who went apostate will have their works cursed and burned up? Just the same. Because they believed in Jesus? They shall remain saved.

What they will lose when burned up? Will be their eternal rewards that the Lord truly wished so much to give them for obedience.

For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid
(faith in Christ), which is Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this
foundation using gold, silver, costly stones,(sound doctrine) wood,
hay or straw, (false doctrine) their work will be shown for what it is,
because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire,
and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has
been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned
up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even
though only as one escaping through the flames. 1 Cor 3:11-15​

The Jewish believers in Hebrews 6:4-6 will be shameful and grieved to see how they displeased their Lord. But, they will be saved as a man is saved who runs from a burning house.

 

[Der Alte]

Hebrews 6:4-6 is a different animal...
Remember how the Church in Jerusalem convinced Paul to partake of a purification ritual in the Temple? That ritual would have taken about a month to complete finishing with a very expensive sacrifice of an oxen. Paul got caught by the religious Jews and almost killed him if not rescued by the Roman guards...
Well? What was that church in Jerusalem doing? They were rejecting the death of Christ as the atonement and continued to offer animal blood sacrifices in the Temple. That is what the warning was about concerning Hebrews 6:4-6!
The author of Hebrew was warning those who were maturing in grace and truth to stop wasting their time too get these religious Jewish believers to repent./ For they have already been saved and experienced tasting of the filling the Spirit, only to return to their old ways. At that point? It would be impossible to get these apostate Jewish believers to change their thinking. So.. Instead of frustrating themselves trying to convince the apostates? The writer of Hebrews encourages them to move on and continue to mature in Christ.

7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces
a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing
of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless
and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.
9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced
of better things in your case—the things that have to do with
salvation. 10 God is not unjust; he will not forget your work
and the love you have shown him as you have helped his
people and continue to help them. Hebrews 6:7-10​

Though these Jewish believers who went apostate will have their works cursed and burned up? Just the same. Because they believed in Jesus? They shall remain saved.
What they will lose when burned up? Will be their eternal rewards that the Lord truly wished so much to give them for obedience.

For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid
(faith in Christ), which is Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this
foundation using gold, silver, costly stones,(sound doctrine) wood,
hay or straw, (false doctrine) their work will be shown for what it is,
because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire,
and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has
been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned
up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even
though only as one escaping through the flames. 1 Cor 3:11-15​

The Jewish believers in Hebrews 6:4-6 will be shameful and grieved to see how they displeased their Lord. But, they will be saved as a man is saved who runs from a burning house.

I never looked at the 1 Cor 3;11-15 passage like that but it does fit. I know you are not but some folks want to twist vs. 15 to mean that all mankind will have their works burned up and will be "saved by fire" instead of "even though only as one escaping through the flames."

 

[GenemZ]

I never looked at the 1 Cor 3;11-15 passage like that but it does fit. I know you are not but some folks want to twist vs. 15 to mean that all mankind will have their works burned up and will be "saved by fire" instead of "even though only as one escaping through the flames."

Even though the unbeliever will have his works evaluated before thrown into the Lake of Fire... His works will not be burned.

For his works will be evaluated in the search of one sole work. A work that will not be found...

Keep in mind. When Jesus walked the earth the Jews under the evil influence of the Pharisees had become obsessed with finding works one should do to gain God's approval. That is why we see Jesus being asked things like.." what work should I do?" They were treating Jesus like they had done with the Pharisees.

Jesus did answer the question with the perfect answer...

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works
God requires?”

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in
the one he has sent.” Jn 6:28-29​

That one work will not be found when the unbeliever has his works evaluated. Its why he will be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

And I saw the dead (spiritually dead), small and great, standing
before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened,
which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to
their works, (not their sins) by the things which were written in the
books." Rev 20:12​

People go to the Lake of Fire not because of their sins. They go because of their rejection of the Lord. They go there not because of sin. But because its evil to reject the perfect God of Righteousness!

 

[FineLinen]

I could sooner be a Turk, a Deist, yes an athiest, than I could believe the unending torture dogma of those who behold the Father of all fathers as an almighty tyrant.

 

[Der Alte]

Unlike the UR-ites who twist scripture to fit their false doctrine I believe what Jesus, Himself , said.
…..Greek is now, and has always been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the “literal” Greek Eastern Orthodox Bible [EOB], know the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. Gehenna,” ”aiōnios,” “kolasis?” etc.
….. EOB, footnote pg. 180

“Hades is the realm of the dead. The upper part of hades was considered to be luminous and it was called “paradise” or "Abraham's bosom.” Hades is not to be confused with hell (Gehenna) which is the final place of state or place of the damned (“the lake of’ fire”).”​

= = = = = = = = = =

The Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.​

= = = = = = = = = =

KJV Romans 16:26 [EOB 14:25]
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αιωνιου/aiōniou] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

Paul, the same writer, in the same writing book of Romans, uses αιωνιου/aiōniou, in Rom 16:26 synonymous with αιδιος/aidios in Rom 1:20, below. Showing conclusively that “aionios” means “eternal/everlasting.” Scholars unanimously agree "aidios" means "eternal/everlasting."

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world, his invisible things are clearly seen. They perceived through created things, even his everlasting [τε αιδιος/te aidios] power and divinity. ​

= = = = = = = =
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be D/L at the link above. Whoever has doubts/questions about the EOB version I suggest they read the 200 page preface which documents the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.
= = = = = = = = = =
…..In the following 10 verses, Jesus, whether knowingly or not, defines/describes “aiōnios” as “eternal” and “aiōn” as “eternity.”
Jesus used the word “aiōnios” 28 times, He never used “aiōnios” to refer to something ordinary or mundane which is not/cannot be eternal.

[1]John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aiōnios]​

In this verse Jesus contrasts “aiōnios life” with “death.” If “live aiōnios” is living only a finite period, that is not opposite “death.” Thus “aiōnios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[2-3]John 10:28-29
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aiōnios] life, and they shall never [ου μη/ou mé] [αἰών/aiōn] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
(29) My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.​

ou mé, vs. 28, signifies in nowise, by no means, never, [fn] below. In these two verses Jesus defines both “aiōnios” and “aiōn” as “eternal” with these three phrases, “[not] snatch them out of my hand,” “never perish,” and “no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.” If “aion/aiōnios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “never perish, [not] snatch them out of my hand/the father’s hand”

[4]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
[5] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.​

In these two verses Jesus pairs “aiōnion” with “should not perish,” twice. Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aiōnion life” here means eternal/everlasting life.

[6]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.​

In this verse Jesus defines “aiōnios” as “eternal” with the phrases “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aiōnios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless at some point, Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [αἰώνιος/aiōnios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

In this verse Jesus contrasts “aiōnios life” with “shall not see life.” If aiōnios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition here aiōnios means eternal.

[8]EOB John 4:14 But whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never [ ου μη/ou mé] be thirsty again. Not only this, the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal [αἰώνιος/aiōnios] life.”
Cleenewerck, L. (Ed.). (2011). The Easter/Greek Orthodox Bible:New Testament. (Jn 4:13–14). Laurent A. Cleenewerck.​

In this verse Jesus contrasts aiōnios with “shall never ου μη/ou mé thirst.” ου μη/ou mé means “in nowise, by no means,” [fn below] Aiōnios cannot mean an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aiōnios here means eternal.

[9]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [αἰώνιος/aiōnios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.​

In this verse Jesus contrasts “aiōnios meat” with “meat that perishes.” If aiōnios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aiōnios means eternal.

[10]John 8:51
(51) [αμην αμην/amen amen], I tell you; whoever keeps my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiōna] see death.”[1]Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiōna][fn] see death."
Cleenewerck, L. (Ed.). (2011). The Easter/Greek Orthodox Bible:New Testament.​

[fn]● The double negative [ου μη/ou mé] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.
Word Studies in the New Testament, Marvin Vincent.
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.

 

[GenemZ]

I could sooner be a Turk, a Deist, yes an athiest, than I could believe the unending torture dogma of those who behold the Father of all fathers as an almighty tyrant.

Hate God much....?

There is a big problem for those who refuse to die and cling to their own point of view and feelings. Refusing to accept what the Lord tells us.

Then Jesus said to his disciples, If any one desires to come after me,
let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me." Mat 16:24


“If any man come to Me and hate not his father and mother, and wife
and children, and brethren and sisters, yea, and (hate) his own life
also, he cannot be My disciple." Lk 14:26

So far.. You hate what God has decided.

You can not accept God's Word. You must try to force passages to mean what they do not mean... And, then deny the plain spoken passages that tell you what you hate.

Because of that? No transformation for your soul is in order. You never learned to hate evil, the one thing we are told to hate.

The fear of the Lord is to hate evil.
Pr 8:13a​

​

 

[FineLinen]

Hate God much....?

I love Him exceedingly abundantly beyond all you can ask or even think.

"Our Father loses nothing. All sheep and goats are His. All piglets are His. All animals on the thousand hills are His including the hills."

 

[GenemZ]

I love Him exceedingly abundantly beyond all you can ask or even think.

"Our Father loses nothing. All sheep and goats are His. All piglets are His. All animals on the thousand hills are His including the hills."

You keep conflating Scripture that belongs to the believer with Satan.

To love God you have to love who He is. Not what you want Him to be. Denial... and you will be denied (some rewards).

"If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous
and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them
when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels." Mk 8:38​

You are ashamed of Him before men. You deny His words! So, you must try to change His words as to try to please men.

Its a bad place where you have placed yourself.

And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur,
where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented
day and night for ever and ever." Rev20:10​

Its not nice to call the one whom you claim to love exceedingly abundantly.... a Liar.

God must torment evil so it will turn its evil inwardly, instead of always trying to attack what is good outwardly.

Unlike men, God is not a sucker like sentimental men who are blinded irrationally by their emotions. Like Chamberlain who said that we would have peace in our time....

 

[Saint Steven]

There is a big problem for those who refuse to die and cling to their own point of view and feelings.

That saw cuts both ways.

Most of us were raised as Damnationists. Only a select few are willing to see it for what it is and abandon it.

How could the same God that REQUIRES us to love our enemies put his "enemies" in a forever burning hell with no hope of escape? Jesus describes loving our enemies as a godly characteristic. Damnationism makes God out to be worse than a pagan or a tax collector. (vs 46-47)

Matthew 5:43-48
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

[Saint Steven]

To love God you have to love who He is. Not what you want Him to be. Denial... and you will be denied (some rewards). You are ashamed of Him before men. You must change Him as to try to please men.

If you knew that your neighbor was torturing people in his basement, would you brag about his good character? (ignoring the obvious)

Or...

What if everyone in town was claiming that your neighbor was torturing people in his basement and tolerated it because he was a worthy citizen otherwise. But you had been in your neighbor's basement and knew that the rumors were just a false claim. Wouldn't you defend the innocence of your neighbor against the false rumors?

The response of Damnationism makes no sense.
Those who don't know any better look the other way, saying that we need to accept that our loving God is ALSO an angry volcano god. Because there is nothing we can do to prevent him from being a cosmic tyrant. Best to just ignore it.