The Ghastly Eternal Torment Dogma

[FineLinen]

There's a slight side of me that wishes that you were correct, but both biblically and righteously speaking, I don't believe that it would be the most holiest and just policy, to disregard all the crimes and atrocities of man as though nothing happened, and that Martin Luther and Hitler will walk hand-in-hand into heaven?

Dear DNB: The Master of reconciliation is correct!

Make no assumptions, our glorious Father will attend to every last atrocity in due measure & His appointed time.

"Many made sinners" in Adam1 =

"Many made righteous" in the Last Adam.

Welcome to the Theos equation.

 

[FineLinen]

The plain wording for destruction is apollumi.

Perhaps it would be interesting to behold what apollumi in "plain wording" means?

https://www.logosapostolic.org/greek...stroy-ruin.htm

"What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he apollumi one of them, does not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is apollumi, until he find it?

"For as many as have sinned without law shall also apollumi without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law.."

"Do not labor for the meat which apollumi, but for that meat which endures to everlasting life..."

"But if your brother is grieved with your meat, now do you not walk charitably. Do not apollumi him with your meat, for whom Christ died.

"He who loves his life shall apollumi it; and he who hates his life in this world shall keep it to life eternal."

"He who finds his life shall lose it: and he who loses his life for My sake shall find it."

 

[FineLinen]

"What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath–prepared for destruction." Romans 9:22

Katartivzw= Fitted/ prepared =

To render or to fit.

To make sound or complete.

To mend what has been broken or rent.

To repair what has been broken or rent.

To put in order.

To arrange. To adjust.

To fit or frame for one’s self.

To strengthen, to perfect, to complete.

To make one what he aught to be.

Dr. Marvin Vincent

Fitted/prepared= kathrtismena=

Literally adjusted or mended.

My friend: God loves you and will never let you go!

 

[FineLinen]

God Strikes and Then Heals

In Wrath There Is Mercy and Restoration

In the Hebrew Scriptures (the OT) we find clear statements that the outcome of God’s “wrath” and “judging” is healing and mercy.

Continued below>>>>>

God Strikes and Then Heals

 

[Saint Steven]

My point was, there is no fire & brimstone, these are metaphors, and that God is not raising a hand against those who rejected them, but rather that their pain is derived from their own guilt and remorse.
You didn't address a thing that I said?

Sorry. It seems I misunderstood you.

 

[Saint Steven]

Not to mention Steven, you did not present a very balanced Biblical testimony to this controversy. As I trust you are aware, there are a myriad of verses that, in and of themselves, support eternal retribution. You are obligated to explain those in order to have a comprehensive case in your favour.
I explained how i interpret yours. So, for example, I would expect an explanation of all the 'weeping and gnashing teeth' passages (just for starters)?

We're just getting started here. I wasn't going to dump a whole page (or two) on you.
I believe there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I agree that there are biblical cases for all three doctrinal views of the final judgment.
- Damnationism
- Annihilationism
- Restorationism

Which of these groups provided us with our translation of the Bible? (Damnationists)
How was their bias applied? (biased toward Damnationism)

 

[Saint Steven]

The passages that you quoted neither negate or undermine the non-universalist position.

Seriously?
I guess you didn't actually read them. (note bold emphasis)
I have many more scriptures, but let's start with what I have already provided. Thanks.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:3-4
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved
and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

 

[DNB]

Dear DNB: The Master of reconciliation is correct!

Make no assumptions, our glorious Father will attend to every last atrocity in due measure & His appointed time.

"Many made sinners" in Adam1 =

"Many made righteous" in the Last Adam.

Welcome to the Theos equation.

I don't quite agree with those logistics, neither Biblically nor spiritually.

 

[DNB]

We're just getting started here. I wasn't going to dump a whole page (or two) on you.
I believe there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I agree that there are biblical cases for all three doctrinal views of the final judgment.
- Damnationism
- Annihilationism
- Restorationism

Which of these groups provided us with our translation of the Bible? (Damnationists)
How was their bias applied? (biased toward Damnationism)

That's quite the leap Steven, are you purporting a conspiracy theory to our manuscript tradition?
Within the majority of our Bible translations, we have an almost impeccable fidelity to the 1st century archetypes. There are no concertedly 'corrupted versions', except for maybe The New World Translation and the Book of Mormon (as far as the prominent one's go).
Possibly, there are verses that can easily have alternate translations, and that one's predisposition might influence their choice of words in place of the Greek. But, this is neither a premeditated, nor comprehensive adulteration of the Scriptures.
I cannot say anything more about this.

 

[Saint Steven]

I cannot say anything more about this.

Do you promise? - lol

 

[DNB]

Seriously?
I guess you didn't actually read them. (note bold emphasis)
I have many more scriptures, but let's start with what I have already provided. Thanks.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:3-4
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved
and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Without addressing each and every passage, there is a gift bestowed to all men, but not all will accept the gift, further condemning their sins and guilt. It is one thing to offer a reprieve, but another to accept it and to have it take affect. At least, this is the manner that God has implemented salvation.
There is a principle called sola fida (I know that you know this), which would have absolutely no impact if it was not requisite towards salvation. The entire epistles impart the principle of faith, and the consequences of having it, or not having it.
Why did so many risk their lives preaching the Gospel, and even go to their deaths by not renouncing their faith, if there was no need, and that the heavenly results would all be the same despite their efforts? By holding to Universalism, you cast a redundancy and foolishness at all the martyr's efforts, and make a mockery of the Christ instituted, principle of evangelism (great commission).
Or, were all these historical facts realized by the effects of erroneous dogma, and misguided men?

 

[Saint Steven]

That's quite the leap Steven, are you purporting a conspiracy theory to our manuscript tradition?

Compare these two translations with the typical to see the difference.
The word usually inserted is "eternal"; here we have the options of "age-during" and "of the Ages".

Weymouth New Testament
"And these shall go away into the Punishment of the Ages, but the righteous into the Life of the Ages."

Young's Literal Translation
And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

 

[Saint Steven]

Without addressing each and every passage...

Fair enough.
If you don't want to discuss it, that's fine.
I'm not interested in arguing with someone whose mind is already made up.

 

[Saint Steven]

The entire epistles impart the principle of faith, and the consequences of having it, or not having it.

All the scriptures in my post are from the epistles.
Houston, we have a problem.

 

[FineLinen]

Without addressing each and every passage, there is a gift bestowed to all men, but not all will accept the gift, further condemning their sins and guilt. It is one thing to offer a reprieve, but another to accept it and to have it take affect. At least, this is the manner that God has implemented salvation.
There is a principle called sola fida (I know that you know this), which would have absolutely no impact if it was not requisite towards salvation. The entire epistles impart the principle of faith, and the consequences of having it, or not having it.
Why did so many risk their lives preaching the Gospel, and even go to their deaths by not renouncing their faith, if there was no need, and that the heavenly results would all be the same despite their efforts? By holding to Universalism, you cast a redundancy and foolishness at all the martyr's efforts, and make a mockery of the Christ instituted, principle of evangelism (great commission).
Or, were all these historical facts realized by the effects of erroneous dogma, and misguided men?

Dear BDN: We shall notify the prophets & St. Luke, St. John, St. Paul & The Saviour of the all, the Master of reconciliation regarding your redundancy & foolishness post.

I will draw/drag off in power/impel all unto Me!

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Your comment about compass reminded me of the compass options in architectural plans.
There is a "true north" and a "plan north".
If the plan is easier to draw or read in plan north, they use that, otherwise the assumption is true north.
The Damnationists have bought into a plan north reading without considering true north.

I suggest they're heading south at a rate of knots.

 

[Saint Steven]

I suggest they're heading south at a rate of knots.

Plan south, or true south? - lol

Saint Steven said: ↑
Your comment about compass reminded me of the compass options in architectural plans.
There is a "true north" and a "plan north".
If the plan is easier to draw or read in plan north, they use that, otherwise the assumption is true north.
The Damnationists have bought into a plan north reading without considering true north.

 

[Saint Steven]

By holding to Universalism, you cast a redundancy and foolishness at all the martyr's efforts, and make a mockery of the Christ instituted, principle of evangelism (great commission).

Nonsense.
And the so-called "great commission" is to make disciples, not converts.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

There's a slight side of me that wishes that you were correct, but both biblically and righteously speaking, I don't believe that it would be the most holiest and just policy, to disregard all the crimes and atrocities of man as though nothing happened, and that Martin Luther and Hitler will walk hand-in-hand into heaven?

Well, what did God do when confronted with the worst crimes imaginable - deicide, regicide, idolatry? He gave His only begotten son so that the world might be saved through him, He reconciled the world to Him. In effect, He said 'Divine love overcomes the worst sins.' While we were still his enemies, Christ died for us. Death is swallowed up in victory. Where sin abounds, grace super-abounds.

Do not resist an evil person, if they want your coat, give them your shirt also. Our God will always go the extra mile, never satisfied until that one last sheep is retrieved.

Man's rebellion leads to tribulation, sure, but that's not the end of the story. The tribulation leads him back to God. That's why the nations get saved in the end.

Do you really think the Stalins of this world are any match for God? They'll fall to their knees crying and confessing their errors, begging their victims for forgiveness in grace and truth. God has comforted the victims. And how much better an outcome is reconciliation than damnation? It's the only way to heal the wounds.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Plan south, or true south? - lol

Saint Steven said: ↑
Your comment about compass reminded me of the compass options in architectural plans.
There is a "true north" and a "plan north".
If the plan is easier to draw or read in plan north, they use that, otherwise the assumption is true north.
The Damnationists have bought into a plan north reading without considering true north.

Poor Steve, you have unwittingly waded into flat earth territory. Would that be true south, magnetic south or ceremonial south pole? You'll find it's impossible to answer, because the Antarctic Treaty effectively prevents independent travel south of the 66th parallel. No aircraft north-south circumnavigations either. Those penguins are sure in need of protection. Move along, nothing to see here...