• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured The Dualistic Conditional Immortality View of Hell

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Jason0047, Apr 26, 2017.

  1. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ

    +2,167
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Well, I had to ignore the moral issue of ECT when I used to believe in it at one time in my life. So it is not a foreign concept or belief for me. I used to even try and defend ECT at one time in my life on another Christian forum. You have to have a clear conscience in order to believe in ECT. But I have repented of such a belief because it is immoral at it's core. I moved beyond the idea that the majority of Bible believing churches are infallible in all of their teachings. I also feel ECT is highly unbiblical. The two best verses that appear to defend ECT in my view are Revelation 20:10 and Luke 16:24. Looking at these two verses it appears like ECT could be true. But in light of the rest of Scripture, this is not the case at all (Note: I will provide a list of Scriptures in my next post for those who are truly seeking the truth). But you are free to believe whatever you like.


    ....
     
  2. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ

    +2,167
    Non-Denom
    Married
    List of Verses for Conditional Immortality:

    Genesis 3:3
    - "It's only the fruit from the tree in the middle of the garden that we are not allowed to eat. God said, 'You must not eat it or even touch it; if you do, you will die.'"
    Genesis 3:22 - And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
    Genesis 7:21-23 - All flesh that moved on the earth perished, birds and cattle and beasts and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and all mankind; of all that was on the dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died. Thus He blotted out every living thing that was upon the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky, and they were blotted out from the earth; and only Noah was left, together with those that were with him in the ark. (cross reference with 2 Peter 2:5-6)
    Genesis 19:24-25 - Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven, and He overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground. (cross reference with 2 Peter 2:5-6)

    Psalms 1:3-6 - The wicked are not so, But they are like chaff which the wind drives away. Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment, Nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous. For the LORD knows the way of the righteous, But the way of the wicked will perish.
    Psalms 37:1-2 - Do not fret because of evildoers, Be not envious toward wrongdoers. For they will wither quickly like the grass and fade like the green herb.
    Psalms 37:9-10 - For evildoers will be cut off, But those who wait for the LORD, they will inherit the land. Yet a little while and the wicked man will be no more; and you will look carefully for his place and he will not be there.
    Psalms 37:20 - But the wicked will perish: Though the LORD's enemies are like the flowers of the field, they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke.
    Psalms 37:37-38 - Mark the blameless man, and observe the upright; for the future of that man is peace, But the transgressors shall be destroyed together, the future of the wicked will be cut off.
    Psalms 68:2 - May you blow them away like smoke-- as wax melts before the fire, may the wicked perish before God.
    Psalms 92:7 - Though the wicked sprout like weeds and evildoers flourish, they will be destroyed forever.
    Psalms 94:23 - He will repay them for their sins and destroy them for their wickedness; the LORD our God will destroy them.
    Psalms 112:10 - The wicked will see and be vexed, they will gnash their teeth and waste away; the longings of the wicked will come to nothing.

    Proverbs 10:25 - When the storm has swept by, the wicked are gone, but the righteous stand firm forever.
    Proverbs 11:4 - Riches do not profit in the day of wrath, but righteousness delivers from death.

    Isaiah 1:28 - But rebels and sinners will both be broken, and those who forsake the LORD will perish.
    Isaiah 1:31 - The strongest among you will disappear like straw; their evil deeds will be the spark that sets it on fire. They and their evil works will burn up together, and no one will be able to put out the fire.
    Isaiah 10:18 - The glory of his forest and of his fruitful land the Lord will destroy, both soul and body, and it will be as when a sick man wastes away.
    Isaiah 25:7-8 - There he will remove the cloud of gloom, the shadow of death that hangs over the earth. He will swallow up death forever! The Sovereign Lord will wipe away all tears.He will remove forever all insults and mockery against his land and people. The Lord has spoken!
    Isaiah 25:10 - For the Lord’s hand of blessing will rest on Jerusalem. But Moab will be crushed. It will be like straw trampled down and left to rot.
    Isaiah 26:11 - Let your fire consume your enemies. But those who die in the Lord will live; their bodies will rise again! Those who sleep in the earth will rise up and sing for joy!
    Isaiah 26:19 - For your life-giving light will fall like dew on your people in the place of the dead!
    Isaiah 65:12 - Therefore I will number you for the sword, and you shall all bow down to the slaughter;
    because, when I called, you did not answer; when I spoke, you did not hear,but did evil before My eyes, and chose that in which I do not delight.”
    Isaiah 66:22, Isaiah 66:24.- For just as the new heavens and the new earth which I make will endure before Me,” declares the LORD, “So your offspring and your name will endure. “Then they will go forth and look on the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die and their fire will not be quenched; and they will be an abhorrence to all mankind.

    Ezekiel 26:19-21 - For thus says the Lord GOD, “When I make you a desolate city, like the cities which are not inhabited, when I bring up the deep over you and the great waters cover you, then I will bring you down with those who go down to the pit, to the people of old, and I will make you dwell in the lower parts of the earth, like the ancient waste places, with those who go down to the pit, so that you will not be inhabited; but I will set glory in the land of the living. “I will bring terrors on you and you will be no more; though you will be sought, you will never be found again,” declares the Lord GOD.

    Daniel 12:2 - "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

    Obadiah 1:16 - …and they shall be as though they had never been.


    Matthew 3:12 - His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire."
    Matthew 7:13-14 - "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
    Matthew 10:28 - Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
    Matthew 13:30 - Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”
    Matthew 13:40-42 - “So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. “The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
    Matthew 16:25-27 - For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.
    Matthew 19:29 - And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.
    Matthew 22:7 - "But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers and burned up their cities.


    Mark 8:35-37 - For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel’s will save it. For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?

    Luke 9:24-25 - For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it. For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and is himself destroyed or lost?
    Luke 12:47-48 - And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.
    Luke 18:18 - A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
    Luke 18:29-30 - And He said to them, “Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life.”
    Luke 20:34-36 - Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

    John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
    John 3:36 - Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them.
    John 4:14 - but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life."
    John 5:24 - "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
    John 5:39-40 - “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
    John 6:27 - Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."
    John 6:33 - For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."
    John 6:40 - For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."
    John 6:51 - I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
    John 6:58 - "This is the bread which came down from heaven - not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."
    John 6:68 - Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.
    John 8:21 - Then Jesus said to them again, "I am going away, and you will seek Me, and will dies in your sin. Where I go you cannot come."
    John 8:24 - "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am (He), you will die in your sins."
    John 8:35 - "And I slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever."
    John 8:51 - I tell you the truth, anyone who obeys my teaching will never die!"
    John 10:28 - "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand."
    John 11:25-26 - Jesus said to her, “I m the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
    John 12:25 - “He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life”.
    John 15:6 - If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

    Acts 3:22-23 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
    And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
    Acts 13:46 - Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.

    Romans 1:32 - who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
    Romans 2:6-8 - …(God) who will render to each one according to his deeds, eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness – indignation and wrath.”
    Romans 2:12 - All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.
    Romans 5:21 - so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    Romans 6:16 - Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
    Romans 6:21 - What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
    Romans 6:23 – For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesusour Lord.
    Romans 7:5 - For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.
    Romans 8:6 - For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
    Romans 8:11 - The Spirit of God, who raised Jesus from the dead, lives in you. And just as God raised Christ Jesus from the dead, he will give life to your mortal bodies by this same Spirit living within you.
    Romans 8:13 - For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
    Romans 9:22-23 - What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory.

    1 Corinthians 1:18 - For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
    1 Corinthians 3:15-17 - If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.
    1 Corinthians 15:16-18 - For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
    1 Corinthians 15:50 - Now this I say brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
    1 Corinthians 15:53-54 - For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory..."

    2 Corinthians 2:15 - For we are to God the fragrance of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing.
    2 Corinthians 4:3 - But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,

    Galatians 6:8 - Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

    Ephesians 1:10 - In the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are in earth.

    Philippians 1:28 - without being frightened in any way by those who oppose you. This is a sign to them that they will be destroyed, but that you will be saved--and that by God.
    Philippians 3:19Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things.

    2 Thessalonians 1:9 – They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.

    1 Timothy 1:16 - “However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.”
    1 Timothy 6:15-16 - “He who is blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and the Lord of lords, who alone has immortality…”

    2 Timothy 1:1 - This letter is from Paul, chosen by the will of God to be an apostle of Christ Jesus. I have been sent out to tell others about the life he has promised through faith in Christ Jesus.
    2 Timothy 1:10 - ...our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

    Hebrews 10:27 - but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries.
    Hebrews 10:39 - But we are not of those who draw back unto perdition (Greek: destruction); but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

    James 1:15 - Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
    James 4:12 – there is one Lawgiver, who is able to save and destroy.
    James 5:20 - …he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death

    1 Peter 1:23 - For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God (Jesus).

    2 Peter 2:1 - But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
    2 Peter 2:6 - and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly.
    2 Peter 2:12 - But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
    2 Peter 3:6-7 - by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
    2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness , but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

    1 John 2:17 - “And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.”
    1 John 3:14-15 - "We know that we have passed from death to life because we love our brothers. The one who does not love remains in death. Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him."
    1 John 5:11-12 - And this is the testimony; that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; and he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

    Jude 1:7 - as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
    Jude 1:12 - …These are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late Autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots.
    Jude 1:21 - Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

    Revelation 2:10 - Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
    Revelation 2:11 - “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.”
    Revelation 20:14 – Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
    Revelation 21:4 - “there will be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away”.
    Revelation 21:8 - But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
    Revelation 22:14 - Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.


    Verse List Source:
    With new eyes: A list of scriptures supporting the doctrines of annihilationism and conditional immortality
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2017
  3. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +1,636
    Baptist
    Married
    I am supposed to be having a discussion with you not with every CI website on the internet. When you copy/pasted this laundry list of verses you failed to review them to see if they say what this website claims they do. I have omitted most of them but let's look at Psa 37.
    Psalms 37:1 A Psalm of David. Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.
    Psalms 37:2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.
    This has nothing to do with man's eternal fate. "Cut down like grass and wither as the green herb" is not destruction. This is what happens to Israel's enemies in this world.
    Psalms 37:9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.
    "Cut off" see vs. 2 "cut down like the grass." Not eternal destruction.
    Psalms 37:10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
    Israel will not be going around heaven looking for their enemies place but when they look for their enemies place in the world it will not be.
    Psalms 37:14
    (14) The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation.
    Psalms 37:15
    (15) Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken.
    Israel's enemies attack Israel with swords and bows but their swords will enter their own hearts and their bows broken, not eternal destruction.
    Psalms 37:17
    (17) For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous.
    The arms of the wicked broken not eternal destruction.
    Psalms 37:20
    (20) But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
    The word translated "perish" is "abad" the primary meaning is perish, die. In Num 33:52 e.g. it does not mean annihilate eternally.
    Numbers 33:52
    (52) Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy [abad] all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places:
    Psalms 37:38
    (38) But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.
    The wicked shall be cut off see. vs. 2 "cut down like the grass."
    I would prefer that you read the scriptures for yourself and form you own opinions not copy/paste canned arguments from random websites. If you can't do that we're done here.
     
  4. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ

    +2,167
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Okay, we are done here.
    I said before I did not want to continue to debate with you.
    I am merely ending on the note that Conditional Immortality can be seen in many places within the Bible.
    Also, verses can have a double fulfillment. I mentioned this to you before.
    If not, then there would be no such thing as Messianic prophecies.
    Oh, and yes, I did read through the list of verses and I did edit a few verses they posted that I did not agree with. I took out Malachi and a few others.

    In any event, I do not think we are going to convince each other.
    You are solidly convinced that you are right and you are not really looking to see that Conditonal Immortality could be potentially true or not. You are looking to shoot down anything that gets in your way in regards to your belief in ECT. That is not seeking the truth - IMO.
    If you really want to be objective here, please read some Conditonal Immortality articles and materials. Pray about it. Keep an open mind. Think about it from the Conditional Immortality Proponent's perspective. Can their argument make sense? If you really do not care to do this, then you are merely seeing what you want to see. Please take note that I was on the fence in regards to ECT and CI for a good while. So just because you open yourself up to studying the CI position and considering it as potentially being true, does not mean you will get sucked into believing it overnight. I took my time studying both sets of verses side by side.


    ...
     
  5. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

    +2,787
    SDA
    Married
    US-Others
    Good grief, God never demands the impossible. What together we can not achieve, it will not be asked for. There is no way for a sinful man to atone for his sins, no way without the blood of Jesus. There is no way that the job of atonement is given to man by himself, can't be done----your reject His atonement, you reject Him and you reject salvation. Simple. No 2nd chance, you face the punishment for sin alone, which is death.

    You eternally burning hell believers crack me up---you will dance around words to try to wrestle the meaning of a word to your believes, when we say the same thing, we are the ones that are not reading it right and dancing around the words. Perish to you does not mean perish, even when it is obvious it does. Immortality is not immortality, when it is and God alone is that. It is a gift from God to the saved, it is said over and over in the bible and you guys completely ignore it. You want it to mean incorruptible?
    1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    God alone is immortal, we were never made immortal
    Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

    That is why the tree of life was barred to mankind---lest we become immortal. That tree of life is returned to us

    Rev_2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
    Rev_22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
    Rev_22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
     
  6. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

    +1,494
    Baptist
    Married
    CA-Conservatives
    BUt He does demand our sin be paid for. No one's sin gets swept under the rug. And if we refuse the payment for our sin Christ has made, we must make payment for it ourselves.

    The punishment is the "second death" in hell. But since the first death of the physical body does not entail annihilation, why should we think the second does? And how is everlasting punishment actually everlasting when it is escaped by annihilation? Punishment requires consciousness. A tree or rock cannot be punished. But we can be punished because we are conscious. Annihilation, though, is the end of consciousness and thus the end of punishment.

    As I've pointed out, "perish" has more than one meaning in the Bible. It does not mean annihilation but utter ruin. That is what is obvious to me.

    This is speaking of our physical bodies, not our immortal, immaterial souls. Our dead, corrupted corpses will be resurrected and glorified and thus become immortally incorruptible.

    Speaking, again, of our physical bodies.

    Selah.
     
  7. Gabriel Anton

    Gabriel Anton Exitus Acta Probat Acta Non Verba Deus Vult 11:18

    +1,057
    Christian
    Private
    Peace be with you.

    In this post, let's have a look at the part in Scripture where Jesus Christ is talking about "their worm does not die."



    Mark 9 Modern English Version (MEV)

    42 “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched, 44 where

    ‘their worm does not die,
    and the fire is not quenched.’

    45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched,46 where

    ‘their worm does not die,
    and the fire is not quenched.’

    47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the fire of hell,48 where

    ‘their worm does not die,
    and the fire is not quenched.’



    From the Book, "Preparation for Death"
    by St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori (27 September 1696 – 1 August 1787):



    In order more clearly to see what indeed thou art, my Christian soul, S. John Chrysostom observes, "Go to a sepulchre, contemplate dust, ashes, worms, and sigh." See how that corpse becomes at first yellow, and then black. Afterwards there is seen upon the body a white and unpleasant mould. Then there issues forth a foul and corrupt matter, which sinks into the
    ground. In that corruption many worms are generated, which feed upon the flesh. The rats then come to feast upon the body, some on the outside, others entering into the mouth and bowels. The cheeks, the lips, and the hair fall in pieces ; the ribs are the first to become bare of flesh, then the arms and the legs. The worms after having consumed the flesh eat each other, and, in the end, nothing remains of that body but a fetid skeleton, which, in course of time, is divided, the bones being separated, and the head falling from the body : they " become like the chaff of the summer threshing-floors, and the wind carried them away/' (Dan. ii. 35.) Behold, then, what man is a little dust upon a threshing-floor, which is carried away by the wind.



    Just to show you these words are True from that book:











    Worms and maggots vanish after a dead body, corpse have been consumed.

    But Jesus Christ states in Hell, "their worm does not die."

    For the worms and maggots to not die in Hell would mean that the worms and maggots have an everlasting body or soul to feast on in relation to you.


    God bless you.
     
  8. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

    +2,787
    SDA
    Married
    US-Others
    Nobodies sins will be swept under the rug---the punishment is death, it is the 2nd death---everlasting death, not everlasting dying. They suffer according to their works and die. The lost can not atone. The pay the price of everlasting death.

    The first death even Jesus referred to it as sleep. You think He brought Lazarus and that 12 year old girl back from heaven?? Why would He remove them from such a place, they would be happy there. And if Lazarus had been in hell, He would not have waited 4 days. That is right, there is an end to punishment. The consequences are death---eternal doesn't mean forever, You are fond of different meanings for the word perish------ so are Sodom and Gomorrah still burning? No, but they are eternally dead.

    See above

    The passage says nothing about physical or spiritual bodies, just that they would become immortal. Which they were not. Immortality is the gift of God, it is stated over and over and yuou keep ignoring that it is a GIFT, not a right of birth!

    nope.
     
  9. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ

    +2,167
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Find a verse that says that the wicked die not and then we can talk.
    If the worms and fire are everlasting for all eternity, the everlasting nature of the worms and fire here does not equate with the everlasting nature of the wicked. Besides, this is not the case. The worms and the fire are temporary things. How so? Well, in Isaiah 66, we see the saints viewing the dead corpses of the wicked. Also, we see elsewhere in Scripture that the same adjectives that are used to describe the worms and the fire supposedly sounding like it is speaking in eternal sense as actually be temporal elsewhere in Scripture in relation to other things, as well. These points have already been brought up in Scripture.


    ...
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2017
  10. Gabriel Anton

    Gabriel Anton Exitus Acta Probat Acta Non Verba Deus Vult 11:18

    +1,057
    Christian
    Private
    Peace be with you.


    Read what you wrote here, Jason.


    Mark 9 Modern English Version (MEV)

    42 “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched, 44 where

    ‘their worm does not die,
    and the fire is not quenched.’

    45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched,46 where

    ‘their worm does not die,
    and the fire is not quenched.’

    47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the fire of hell,48 where

    ‘their worm does not die,
    and the fire is not quenched.’



    In my previous post, I treated the term, "worm" using the first definition.

    Jason, if you take a look at the second definition, you will get your answer. Substitute the term, "worm" with the 2nd definition, you will get your answer.

    From the Google search:

    worm
    wəːm/

    noun
    noun: worm; plural noun: worms
    1. any of a number of creeping or burrowing invertebrate animals with long, slender soft bodies and no limbs.
      • short for earthworm.
      • intestinal or other internal parasites.
        "she ate so much so often that I thought she had worms"
      • used in names of long slender insect larvae, especially those in fruit or wood, e.g. army worm, woodworm.
      • used in names of other animals that resemble worms in some way, e.g. slow-worm, shipworm.
      • a maggot regarded as eating corpses buried in the ground.
        "food for worms"
    2. informal
      a weak or despicable person (often used as a general term of abuse).
      "it was unbearable that such a worm could be so successful"


    From Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

    Definition of worm
    1. a : earthworm; broadly : an annelid worm
      b : any of numerous relatively small elongated usually naked and soft-bodied animals (such as a grub, pinworm, tapeworm, shipworm, or slowworm)
    2. a : a human being who is an object of contempt, loathing, or pity : wretch
      b : something that torments or devours from within

    Definition of wretch

    1. : a miserable person : one who is profoundly unhappy or in great misfortune
    2. : a base, despicable, or vile person

    wretch Synonyms
    Synonyms

    baddie (or baddy), beast, brute, caitiff, devil, evildoer, fiend, heavy, hound, knave, meanie (also meany), miscreant, monster, nazi, no-good, rapscallion, rascal, reprobate, rogue, savage, scalawag (orscallywag), scamp, scapegrace, scoundrel, varlet, villain

    Near Antonyms
    angel, innocent, saint; hero

    Definition of wretch for English Language Learners
    • : a very unhappy or unlucky person
    • : a very bad or unpleasant person

    Definition of wretch for Students

    1. : a miserable unhappy person
    2. : a very bad person You're an ungrateful wretch.

    3

    base
    adjective
    Definition of base for English Language Learners
    • : not honest or good
    3
    base
    adjective
    Definition of base for Students
    baser
    ;
    basest

    1. : of low value and not very good in some ways base metals
    2. : not honorable

    Synonym Discussion of base

    base, low, vile mean deserving of contempt because of the absence of higher values. base stresses the ignoble and may suggest cruelty, treachery, greed, or grossness. ⟨base motives⟩ low may connote crafty cunning, vulgarity, or immorality and regularly implies an outraging of one's sense of decency or propriety. ⟨refused to listen to such low talk⟩ vile, the strongest of these words, tends to suggest disgusting depravity or filth. ⟨a vile remark⟩

    base Synonyms
    Synonyms

    ignoble, contemptible, currish, despicable, detestable, dirty, dishonorable, execrable, ignominious, low, low-down, low-minded, mean, nasty, paltry, snide, sordid, vile, wretched

    Antonyms

    high, high-minded, honorable, lofty, noble, straight, upright, venerable, virtuous


    Definition of despicable
    1. : deserving to be despised : so worthless or obnoxious as to rouse moral indignation despicable behavior

    despicable Synonyms
    Synonyms

    cheap, cruddy, deplorable, contemptible, dirty, grubby, lame, lousy, mean, nasty, paltry, pitiable, pitiful, ratty, scabby, scummy, scurvy, sneaking, sorry, wretched

    Antonyms

    admirable, commendable, creditable, laudable, meritorious, praiseworthy

    Definition of despicable for English Language Learners
    • : very bad or unpleasant : deserving to be despised

    Definition of despicable for Students

    1. : very bad : deserving to be despised a despicable act of cowardice

    Definition of vile
    viler
    play \ˈvī-lər\;
    vilest
    play \ˈvī-ləst\

    1. a : morally despicable or abhorrent nothing is so vile as intellectual dishonestyb : physically repulsive : foul a vile slum
    2. : of little worth or account : common; also : mean
    3. : tending to degrade vile employments
    4. : disgustingly or utterly bad : obnoxious, contemptible vile weather had a viletemper

    vile Synonyms
    Synonyms

    black, dark, evil, immoral, iniquitous, nefarious, rotten, sinful, unethical, unlawful, unrighteous, unsavory, vicious, bad, villainous, wicked, wrong

    Antonyms

    decent, ethical, good, honest, honorable, just, moral, right, righteous, sublime, upright, virtuous

    Definition of vile for English Language Learners
    • : evil or immoral
    • : very bad or unpleasant

    Definition of vile for Students

    viler
    ;
    vilest

    1. : wicked 1 a vile deed
    2. : very bad or unpleasant a vile smell


    God bless you.
     
  11. Gabriel Anton

    Gabriel Anton Exitus Acta Probat Acta Non Verba Deus Vult 11:18

    +1,057
    Christian
    Private
    Peace be with you.

    Just some additions:

    From Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

    Definition of worm for English Language Learners
    • : a long, thin animal that has a soft body with no legs or bones and that often lives in the ground

    • : the young form of some insects that looks like a small worm

    • : a person who is not liked or respected : a very bad person

    Definition of worm for Students
    1. : a usually long creeping or crawling animal (as a tapeworm) that has a soft body

    2. : earthworm

    3. : a person hated or pitied

    4. worms plural : infection caused by parasitic worms living in the body a dog with worms

    God bless you.
     
  12. real tree

    real tree Member

    173
    +23
    Christian
    Private
    I didn't know that it took several verses to make it true.
     
  13. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ

    +2,167
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Yes, this is true. If you collect all verses that appear to support ECT and compare them next to all the verses that appear to support CI (Conditinal Immortality), you will see that God's Word supports CI and not ECT. Please take note that I do not believe in a full head on soul sleep like most Conditionalists. So verses that suggest conscious awareness cannot be used as a case for ECT. Only verses that suggest that we will suffer for a long time in the flames can be used to support ECT. If you put them side by side, you will CI is greater in number.


    ...
     
  14. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ

    +2,167
    Non-Denom
    Married
    [staff edited]

    Love and not hate is what will also help to win people towards the truth, my friend.
    For insults are not becoming of the saints.

    In any event, may God's love shine upon you; And please be well.


    ...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 7, 2017
  15. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie

    +315
    Christian
    Married
    Firstly, a parable is a story that reveals something that one wants to get across. The Scriptures state plainly that Jesus spoke to the Pharisees in Parables. Jesus telling a parable is revealing some truth. That's doesn't necessitate that the words of the parable be an actual event.

    Secondly, If you read Paul's statement about a "spiritual" body in context, it can be seen that he is speaking of the resurrection. The context is the body before the resurrection and after the resurrection. He's not talking about a "ghost" body. Jesus even said after His resurrection, that He was flesh and bone.
     
  16. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ

    +2,167
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Jesus never said parables were fictious stories and we get no indication that they are fictious in any way when we read them. So you cannot just say a "parable" a fictious story without using the Bible to prove such a thing. Also, you do realize that "Fiction" is a lie, right? You do realize that "Fiction" is not truth? Again, if Jesus told us fictious stories then that would mean He told us untruths or fantasies. This would mean He would have to indulge us with lies or untruths in order to get His point across about spiritual truth. The Scriptures say this about the Father's words, "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." (John 17:17). Jesus said, "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak." (John 12:49). Peter says this about Jesus, "He never sinned, and he never told a lie." (1 Peter 2:22 ISV). If Jesus told us certain stories and never said they were fictious to get a truth accross, then he would be telling us something that was not true. It would be as if I was telling you about the Matrix the film (with you not being aware of such a flick) and then I never told you it was an actual movie. We know parables are just real world examples (i.e. truths). They can happen or have happened already. There are no stories that Jesus told us that took place on Mars, or in some kind of strange world where people walk upside down and talk backwards, etc. There is nothing to suggest that Jesus's parables are fantasy. Every parable Jesus told us suggests that they are real stories that can take place in the real world. So no. Jesus did not tell a lie by Him telling us make believe stories that are made up.

    Then Paul would not say that there is a natural body and a spiritual body. He is saying there are two different bodies. If that was not the case, then Paul would have said so otherwise. There is a natural body and a physical body. You either believe that or you don't believe that. I believe that just as it is plainly written. Also, there is a resurrection of the spiritual body and the physical body in two different phases for the saints. The 1st phase of the resurrection of the spiritual body for the saints is at the Pre-Trib Rapture (both those saints who are in Abraham's bosom currently and those saints who are still alive on the Earth). The 2nd phase of the resurrection of the spiritual body of the saints takes place shortly before Christ's return. Then there will be a resurrection of the physical body. The 1st phase of the resurrection of the physical body takes place sometime shortly before the Millennium. The 2nd phase of the resurrection of the physical body for the saints (along with the resurrection of the damned) takes place shortly before the Judgment (After the Millennium) on the Eternal New Earth.

    Also, I believe Scripture teaches that we are both awake AND asleep during death. For one, there are many passages suggesting conscious awareness after one's physical body has died. To suggest so otherwise is to ignore the plain written meaning of many verses.

    Verses on Being Conscious After Death:

    2 Corinthians 5:8
    "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

    Philippians 1:21-23
    21 "For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
    22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
    23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better."

    "There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." (1 Corinthians 15:44).
    "For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him?" (1 Corinthians 2:11).
    "And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour." (Luke 1:47).
    "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7).

    Isaiah 14:9
    "Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations."

    Psalms 139:8
    "If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there."

    1 Peter 3:18-19
    18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
    19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;"

    Revelation 6:9-11
    9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
    10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
    11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

    2 Corinthians 5:1-2
    1 "For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
    2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:"

    Luke 23:43
    "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

    2 Samuel 12:23
    "But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me."

    Revelation 20:12-13
    12 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works"

    Matthew 17:1-6
    1 "And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
    2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
    3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
    4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
    5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
    6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid."

    Luke 16:19-31
    19 "There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
    20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
    21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
    22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
    23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
    24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
    25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
    26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
    27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
    28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
    29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
    30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
    31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

    Then there are verses that suggest that we are asleep after we are dead, too.

    Verses that are Suggestive of Sleeping After Death:

    "The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence." (Psalms 115:17).

    "For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?" (Psalms 6:5).

    "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Daniel 12:2).

    "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." (Ecclesiastes 9:5).

    "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,..." (1 Corinthians 15:51).

    "He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn." (Matthew 9:24).

    "So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David." (1 Kings 2:10).

    In other words, Scripture has to be read as a whole.



    ...
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2017
  17. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

    +2,787
    SDA
    Married
    US-Others

    Parable:


    From G3846; a similitude (“parable”), that is, (symbolically) fictitious narrative (of common life conveying a moral), apoth gm or adage: - comparison, figure, parable, proverb.
    From a compound of G3844 and perhaps a derivative of G3633; apparently a state alongside of supposition, that is, (concretely) an adage; specifically an enigmatical or fictitious illustration: - parable, proverb.
     
  18. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ

    +2,167
    Non-Denom
    Married
    The Dictionary defines a parable in two ways.
    They define it as either allegorical or as

    "a statement or comment that conveys a meaning indirectly by the use of comparison, analogy, or the like."​

    Obviously if I am going to make an analogy I am going to draw from real life. We see this with the parable of the Canaanite woman when she made an extension to Jesus's parable. She said even the dogs eat from the Master's table. This was a truth. A real life story that has happened repeatedly through out history already. It is not about an alien with 4 arms who shoots laser beams from his eyes and who eats cats for dinner every Friday night.

    As for the Lexicon you used: Well, James Strong and his buddies were not divinely inspired to write the work that that they did. They are merely offering their opinion on what they think certain words mean. So I will stick with my English Dictionary and what the Bible says plainly. Thank you, my friend.


    ...
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2017
  19. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie

    +315
    Christian
    Married
    What you believe about a parable doesn't change reality. A parable is a story that is used to illustrate a truth. Look up the definition. What you believe doesn't change the way language is use. Language can be used either literally or figuratively. Your beliefs don't change that. We know that the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich man is a story because the events of the parable are depicted in a way that according to the Bible doesn't happen.





    What you believe Paul or Jesus should have done or would have done is nothing but speculation. More importantly we should look at what they actually did. We know that Paul repeatedly used metaphors and other figures of speech. So, your claims that he should have or would have are irrelevant. It's clear from Scripture that he did use figurative language. Instead of ripping passages from their context, why do as I suggested and read them in context. Paul's statement about a spiritual and physical body is referring to the resurrection.
     
  20. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ

    +2,167
    Non-Denom
    Married
    This is not true. First, the story of Lazarus and the Richman is not called a parable. Second, it is a little odd that this is the only parable that is fictious when none of Jesus's other parables were fictious. Three, the narrative of the Richman and Lazarus is an account of what it is like for a wicked man to die and go to hell or hades. How so? Well, I have already provided a list of verses that shows that men are consciously awake or aware of things after death.

    The use of metaphors is determined by the context. I do not see any context supporting your claim in 1 Corinthians 15:43-44. For allegorizing the words "spiritual body" when you do not allegorize the words "natural body" is ripping those words out of context -- IMO. Paul says there is a natural body and a spiritual body. It doesn't make any sense to treat one as real and then allegorize the other. This is exactly what an ECT proponent does with the "Second Death." They treat the "First Death" (i.e. physical death) as real and yet they allegorize the words "Second Death." However, this destroys the parallel or relation that they have with each other. Also, you are not providing any context of the passage here and you are just stating that this is so. Prove your case with the text that spiritual body is allegorical or metaphorical while the physical body is real.

    Also, angels have a spiritual body. This is why Paul says there is a spiritual body. For when Paul says we will put on immortality in 1 Corinthians 15:53, he is talking about how we will receive spiritual bodies like that of angels. It is why Scripture says, "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God," (John 1:12). For "sons of God" was a reference to angels in the Old Testament; And it is said elsewhere in the NT that we will be like angels (Matthew 22:30).



    ....
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2017
Loading...