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Featured The Dualistic Conditional Immortality View of Hell

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Jason0047, Apr 26, 2017.

  1. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ Supporter

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    I believe the Bible teaches "Dualistic Conditional Immortality."

    This is the view as taught in the Bible that says that "hell" is a very real and literal place; But the wicked will perish (i.e. be erased from existence) in the Lake of Fire (After the Judgment).

    As for a literal "hell": Well, I just do not believe there is any Scripture saying that the wicked will burn down there for thousands of years. Yes, the story of Lazarus and the Rich-man appears to suggest he was in the flame, but he also could have been referring to the heat of the flame in front of him (either nearby or in the great gulf between him and Abraham). In other words, when the rich-man said "I am tormented in this flame" (Luke 16:24) it would sort of be like if I said "I am tormented in this soldier." (referring to the flatulence from the soldier in front of me). For the first appearance of the English word "this" is used by Adam to refer to Eve who was in front of him (Genesis 2:23). Need another analogy and or another verse? Okay. Well, "in this" in Luke 16:24 is sort of like if I said I am happy in this car --- yet the car is in front of me. Similar language like this can be found with the words "in these" in Isaiah 57:6. Granted, I am not discounting the idea that the rich-man was burning in the actual flame itself, but I do not believe he was burning down there for thousands of years consciously being aware of that fact because God is fair and just in His Judgments.

    47 "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
    48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."
    (Luke 12:47-48).

    Sir Arhur Conan Doyle once said,
    "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth."

    Side Note:

    Also, if the Rich-man really was engulfed in flames, then how was he able to carry on a normal conversation with Abraham? For today, if a man was tied to a log and then lowered into a roaring camp fire, he would be too busy screaming over his pain so as to carry on a normal conversation with anyone. For if the Rich-man was able to hear Abraham over his own screams of pain, he would be asking Abraham for tons of buckets of water and not a few drops to cool his tongue.

    As for the Lake of Fire being a place of annihialation:

    Jesus said, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28). While I am not claiming to be an expert on Greek, scholars have said that the word "hell" here is taken from the Greek word "geenna" which is a reference to the Lake of Fire.

    If that is the case, the point here is that Jesus can destroy both body AND THE SOUL (of a person) in the Lake of Fire. For Jesus destroying the soul and body is related to man destroying or killing the physical body here on this Earth. Are you saying that men do not fear physical death? Jesus is telling us not to fear the one who can destroy our physical body because if we trust in Him, we will never techincally die (i.e. Face the second death, i.e. the Lake of Fire); but we will have everlasting LIFE. In fact, the Lake of Fire is called the "Second Death" because it relates to the "First Death."

    Anyways, Jesus is saying we should really fear Him because He has the true power of ending life or not. For if a believer's body dies, they will one day be resurrected and live with Jesus on the Eternal New Earth.


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    Last edited: Apr 26, 2017
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  2. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ Supporter

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    In fact, I believe why most hold to ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) is because they do not understand that the word "forever" does not always mean "forever" in the Bible.

    Take Revelation 14:11 as an example.
    Should the English words "for ever" (or "forever") be read literally meaning an endless state?

    Well, I heard a pastor once say that the best way to interpret the Bible is to let the Bible do the interpreting for you. What I am I talking about? Well, the Bible tells us that the phrase "smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever" is a metaphorical phrase from Isaiah 34:10 which says that the smoke of Edom went up forever and ever. Yet is the city of Edom burning today? No, of course not. So we then realize that this phrase is speaking metaphorically.

    In other words,, the word "forever" (and it's related words) does not always mean forever in the Bible. “Forever” can be talking about "forever" here on this Earth (as long as someone lives) or in having a sense of "completeness" or "totality" for a specific thing). For what do you make of the following verses below that say that "forever" (or it's related words) is not forever?

    • In Genesis 13:15 the land of Canaan is given to Israel “forever”.

    • The Law is to be a statute “forever” (Exodus 12:24; Exodus 27:21; Exodus 28:43).

    • Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 1:7) until -- God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ezekiel 16:53-55).

    • Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jeremiah 30:12) until -- the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jeremiah 30:17).

    • The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Micah 1:9) until -- Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ezekiel 16:53).

    • Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zephaniah 2:9, Jeremiah 25:27 until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jeremiah 49:6).

    • An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever" until -- the tenth generation (Deuteronomy 23:3):

    • Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting" until -- they "were shattered" Habakkuk 3:6).

    • The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Exodus 40:15), that is-until-it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).

    • Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:13), until -- the Temple was destroyed.

    • The children of Israel were to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16)-until -- Paul states there remains "another day" of Sabbath rest for the people of God (Hebrews 4:8-9).

    • The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:11-13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).

    • The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a "perpetual" until -- Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins.
    Hell. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Leviticus 6:12-13, Hebrews 8:6-13).

    • God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever" until--the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6-10; Jonah 1:17); Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jeremiah 25:27) until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ezekiel 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jeremiah 49:39).

    • "Moab is destroyed" (Jeremiah 48:4, Jeremiah 48:42) until--the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jeremiah 48:47).

    • Israel's judgment lasts "forever" until -- the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isaiah 32:13-15).

    • The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us that a bond slave was to serve his master "forever" (Exodus 21:6), until -- his death.

    • “Eternal” (Greek aionia, αιονια) is sometimes used of a limited (not endless) period of time. But the most common use is illustrated in 2 Corinthians 4:18 where it is contrasted with “temporal” and in Philemon 1:15 where it is contrasted with “for a while.”​

    Anyways, in conclusion, I have discovered that the word "forever" as used in the Bible is true. It does mean "forever" but it is talking in "forever" under the context of within either a temporary Covenant, or here upon this Earth (which is temporal), or within the Lake of Fire (Which is also a temporary place).

    Here is the source for list above for the Scriptural examples used on the word "forever":
    http://www.apttoteach.org/attjom/index.php


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  3. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ Supporter

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    Verses That Are In Support of Conditional Immortality:

    “...he must not reach out, take from the tree of life, eat, and live forever." (Genesis 3:22 HCSB).

    “and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah with seven others, a proclaimer of righteousness, when he brought a flood on the world of the ungodly; and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, having made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly.” (2 Peter 2:5-6 NHEB).

    “And repays them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hates him, he will repay him to his face.” (Deuteronomy 7:10).

    “Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same. By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed.” (Job 4:8-9).

    “For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.” (Psalms 1:6).

    “When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul. Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.” (Ezekiel 3:18-20).

    “Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die” (Ezekiel 18:4).

    “I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.” (Luke 13:3).

    “Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.” (Romans 1:32).

    “And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever” (1 John 2:17).

    “And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.” (1 John 5:11-13)

    “But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;” (2 Peter 2:12).

    “What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.” ‭‭(Romans 6:21).

    “For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.” (Malachi 4:1-3).

    “The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death” (1 Corinthians 15:26)

    “When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:” (Psalms 92:7).

    “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [i.e. Gehenna or Lake of Fire].” (Matthew 10:28).


    On the Eternal New Earth, The Saints will Witness the Lifeless Remains of the Wicked:

    The Saints View The Lifeless Remains (i.e. Corpses) of the Wicked:

    Isaiah 66:22-24

    "For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."

    For the Final Fate of the Wicked is Destruction (or Annihilation):

    2 Thessalonians 1:9

    "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."

    Malachi 4:1-3

    “For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.”

    2 Peter 2:6 NHEB

    "...and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, having made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly.”

    Psalms 68:2

    "....as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God."

    Job 4:8-9

    “Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same. By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed.”

    Psalms 92:7 NLT

    "Though the wicked sprout like weeds and evildoers flourish, they will be destroyed forever."

    Deuteronomy 7:10

    “And repays them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hates him, he will repay him to his face.”

    Psalms 1:6

    “For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.”

    Matthew 10:28

    “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [i.e. Gehenna or Lake of Fire].”

    Revelation 21:8

    "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

    The Final Fate of the Wicked Also Includes the Annihilation or:

    A. Destruction of the Devil:

    Isaiah 14:12, Isaiah 14:19

    12 “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!” 19 “....thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.”
    ‭‭
    Ezekiel 28:14-15, Ezekiel 28:18

    “Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.”

    “Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.”

    B. Destruction of the Entity Known As "Death":

    1 Corinthians 15:26

    “The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death”

    1 Corinthians 15:25

    “For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.”


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    Last edited: Apr 26, 2017
  4. PropheticTimes

    PropheticTimes Lord Have Mercy Supporter

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    What about Matthew 25:41 - "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels"?

    In Greek -

    everlasting
    αἰώνιος
    aiōnios
    ahee-o'-nee-os
    From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

    fire
    πῦρ
    pur
    poor
    A primary word; “fire” (literally or figuratively, specifically lightning): - fiery, fire.

    The phrase "everlasting fire" was used once more by Jesus in Matthew 18:8 - "Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire."

    In Revelation these verses appear to refer to an actual place, where fire and brimstone are mentioned together, and does not come across as some sort of instant annhilation of the spirit -

    Revelation 14:10
    The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

    Revelation 19:20
    And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

    Revelation 20:10
    And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    Revelation 21:8
    But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
     
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  5. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ Supporter

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    <Staff Edit>

    First, I believe in Jesus Christ as my personal Savior. So I am already bowing to Jesus Christ with my life. Please do not suggest I am not doing so by saying I need to bow to Jesus in the end. I am already in allegiance to Christ. Thank you.

    Second, you are not reading what I had written in my original post. I said I believe in a literal hell. I am saying that the Rich-man did have a real experience of a real place of torment. The Rich-man did indeed go to a place of torments. The thing is that I do not believe the Rich-man was tormented in the flames because if he had been, you would have been screaming too much in pain to even carry on a normal conversation with Abraham. For do you think you can be engulfed in flames and yet talk to me normally? No. Why would you think that such is the case with the Rich-man? Also, the word "this" in the Rich-man saying he was tormented in "this flame" was in reference to the Rich-man's discomfort of the HEAT of the flame that was nearby him or within the great gulf fixed between him and Abraham. Adam said to Eve that "this" is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh (Genesis 2:23). Adam was not using the word "this" in reference to himself or where he was standing. He was referring to Eve who was in front of him. The same is true for the Rich-man. He was referring to the flame that was in front of him by using the word "this", as well.

    Three, please check out the word "forever" in post #2. You will see that the word "forever" and it's related words does not always mean "forever." Take for example Philemon 1:15. For we see the word "forever" clearly used in a temporal sense in Philemon 1:15.

    For it says,

    "For perhaps he therefore departed for a season, that thou shouldest receive him for ever;" (Philemon 1:15 KJV).

    This is talking about Onesimus. Here is what it says in the New Living Translation,

    15 "It seems you lost Onesimus for a little while so that you could have him back forever.
    16 He is no longer like a slave to you. He is more than a slave, for he is a beloved brother, especially to me. Now he will mean much more to you, both as a man and as a brother in the Lord." (Philemon 1:15-16 NLT).

    In other words, Onesimus did not return to his master for all eternity here upon this Earth. Onesimus is not still alive. He is not an immortal or anything of that nature. He was mortal and he died. So to assume that the word "forever" and it's related words always means forever does not work. Meaning, one has to re-examine what they believe the word "forever" means based on the context.

    Four, please see Post #4, as well. There are many verses that support Conditional Immortality. In fact, there are more verses for Conditional Immortality than there are for ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment).

    Five, also, if your belief on hell was true, then can you explain to me how it is good and moral in torturing the wicked for all eternity? For example: Would you think it would be fair for a dictator to punish a family for lying in his country by torturing them for the rest of their lives? Surely not. Do people sin against God for all time? No. People do not have a time machine whereby they can sin against God for all time (with the punishment befitting such a crime). People sin against God for a finite amount of time here upon this Earth. Punishing them waaaay beyond what the crime calls for is cruel and sadistic and it is not fair justice (And you know that deep down).


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    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 27, 2017
  6. PropheticTimes

    PropheticTimes Lord Have Mercy Supporter

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    Please allow me to be sure of what you are saying -

    You believe in a literal hell, but not literal fire, correct?
    You believe that the punishment of hell is not eternal. Do you believe that at some point the spirit is destroyed? Or is it more of a "once cleansed, onto Heaven" type of thing?

    I am simply trying to nail down your views so I understand your meaning correctly. :)
     
  7. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ Supporter

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    The Lake of Fire is a temporary place. The fire is "everlasting" for as long as the time for when the Lake of Fire exists. For example: I can say to my wife that I will be her husband forever. But I am of course talking in context of "forever" as being here upon this Earth. In many cases, words such as "everlasting" or "forever" can be in context to a particular thing that is temporal within the Bible. For example: Did Onesimus return to his master for all eternity here upon this Earth? Is Onesimus still alive today? Surely not. See Philemon 1:15-16.

    I believe in fair justice or punishment (Please see Luke 12:47-48). I believe it is possible that the wicked may be punished for a certain amount of time in proportion to the type of sins or crimes they committed here upon this Earth. But I also believe that is possible that they could be destroyed right away, too. In any event, the end result of destruction of the wicked is the same. For the saints witness the lifeless remains of the wicked on the Eternal New Earth (See Isaiah 66:22-24).

    Anyways, here is a good article on Isaiah 14:10.

    Doesn't Revelation 14 tell us that people will be tormented forever?

    First let's look at what the text actually says...Revelation 14:10-11 is about a specific group of people at "the end times." It is about people who take the mark of the beast during what many call The Great Tribulation. John tells us of the day they meet God–Judgment Day.

    The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: (Revelation 14:10-11)

    It is very important to notice where they are. They are "in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb." This is obviously when they are standing before the Great White Throne of God on Judgment Day and cannot be hell. The parable that Jesus tells in Luke 19:27 teaches us that these ones will ultimately be slain, "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." Notice, they are eventually slain in the presence of the King, but not before they are tormented by His holiness and their sinfulness. Additionally, this is the same exact word in Greek that Peter uses to talk about how Lot was vexed (tormented) in his soul while seeing the evil deeds done in his hometown. (2 Peter 2:8).

    1. If then, the torment with fire, brimstone, and eternal smoke takes place in the presence of the Lamb and holy angels, then it also takes place in the presence of the believers as well (since we will be with the Lord by that time). Think about it. Could you be happy for all eternity witnessing the excruciating fire and torture of hundreds of millions of lost souls? And will they be forever in the presence of Jesus being tormented as the text says, they are "in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb."

    2. But what about the word "forever"; doesn't the text say torment will go on forever? No. Read it very carefully. It clearly says "the smoke" will rise forever. Smoke rising forever is much different than torment going on forever. John is using the biblical expression of "smoke rising" to describe how people then remembered an important incident. Today we take pictures and video of our enemies being bombed and their city set on fire and play it over and over a hundred times, but back then the enemies of God were destroyed and it was over. There was no video to review over and over again back then. The preservation of smoke was the only way for them to remember the great event. Look how John speaks of Babylon's destruction, "And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up forever and ever." (Revelation 19:3) One day Babylon will be destroyed and even in heaven we will never forget God's destruction of that city. That is what is meant by smoke rising forever. The same thing happened to Sodom and Gomorrah, "And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace." (Genesis 19:28).

    3. It is not proper hermeneutics to view the scripture in Revelation 14:10 apart from how the other biblical writers use it. And they do not use it of eternal torment. Again, look how Isaiah uses the exact same wording about the city of Edom being destroyed, "the smoke thereof shall go up forever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever." (Isaiah 34:10). Edom was destroyed and the smoke rising forever was meant as a remembrance statement. Obviously, there is no smoke today still rising from the location of Edom. It is figurative language denoting that God's work of their destruction will "never be forgotten."

    Article Source:
    Believe What the Jewish Apostles Taught -- Why Conditional Immortality Is True and Biblical
    (Note: I believe in the Conditional View of the Lake of Fire within this Article. I do not hold to their view of soul sleep and or in their view of Lazarus and Richman).​

    These are demons who have tormented mankind for thousands of years. Their punisment is in line with the amount of time they tormented mankind. There is no mention anywhere in the Bible about any humans who are tormented for thousands of years.

    What is the "Ages of Ages" in Revelation 20:10 talking about?

    Revelation 20:10 is indeed saying that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented day and night for... "the ages of ages." Here are a few translations that express this.

    "for the eons of the eons." ~ Concordant Literal New Testament
    "for the ages of the ages." ~ Darby Bible Translation.
    "for the aeons of the aeons." ~ The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson​

    In other words, Revelation 20:10 is saying the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented day and night for the purpose of the Ages of the Ages. Meaning the Ages of Ages that are past! They are being punished day and night for the evil that they committed during the past Ages and Ages here on this Earth. For the word "for" can also be defined as "because" within the English language.

    Revelation 20:10 Darby
    "And the devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] both the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for [the purpose of] the ages of ages."

    For the devil, the beast, and the false prophet are all demons who have tormented mankind for ages and ages. So they will be cast into the Lake of Fire and brimstone and will be tormented day and night and not for all eternity.

    So the "ages of ages" is talking about "past ages" and not "future ages."

    This is further supported by the fact that Paul says the last enemy to be destroyed is death (1 Corinthians 15:26), which suggests that there were other enemies of God that the Lord destroyed before this last enemy. This then ties in nicely with Revelation 21:4 saying, "the former things have passed away." These former things that have passed away are: tears, sorrow, crying, death, and pain. For the first heaven and first earth will pass away and a new heaven and a new earth will take it's place (Revelation 21:1). For Jesus says, "I make all things new." (Revelation 21:5).

    The Lake of Fire is called the "Second Death" because it relates to the "First Death." Man's physical death here upon this Earth is interpreted as being literal and real. If there is to be a "Second Death" we should not turn into some kind of metaphor. The Second Death is ALSO talking about another real and physical death or ending for a person. It would be a change our understanding of what "death" means if we say that the second death is totally different than the first death. If ECT was true, the Lake of Fire would not be called the "Second Death." It would be called something else.


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    Last edited: Apr 26, 2017
  8. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ Supporter

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    No. I believe the fire is literal, too.
    I believe the Rich-man was being tormented by the HEAT of the flame that either surrounded him or the flame that may have been in the great gulf between him and Abraham. For there is Scripture that suggests that "hell" is sort of like an island sitting atop of the Lake of Fire: For the Earth's core is like a big fiery hot ball. The great gulf is an opening or crack in Hell's surface letting some of the flame from below (in the Lake of Fire) to show (Whereby the Richman is tormented by the heat of it).

    Deuteronomy 32:22
    "For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains."

    The lowest Hell is the Lake of Fire. For the English word Hell can be translated as Gehenna in the Greek within the New Testament, which means Lake of Fire.

    Isaiah 34:14
    "The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest."
    The wild beasts, the satyr, and the screech owl in this passage are demons. The wild beasts of the island are those demons on the island of Hell below.

    Univeralism is not biblical.
    Purgatory is not biblical.
    All the wicked will be destroyed both body and soul. Jesus Himself said fear the One who can destroy (DESTROY) body and soul in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire). Jesus relates this destruction to the physical destruction of man's physical death here upon this Earth. Jesus does not say in Matthew 10:28 that we are to fear the one who can torture the soul in flames for all eternity. Jesus says fear the one who can DESTROY.... I will repeat... DESTROY.... body AND SOUL in Gehenna.

    Please take note that I am not shouting with the words that are capitalized here.
    I am merely emphasizing my point in love, my friend.

    I totally understand.

    And may God bless you.


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  9. PropheticTimes

    PropheticTimes Lord Have Mercy Supporter

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    Understood. You have given me much to chew on. Much thanks. :)
     
  10. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

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    I think it is good t notice that in the Lazarus story the man is in Hades, not really in hell. they are sometimes mixed and people seem t think they are same, but on basis of the Revelation, they are not the same, because in the end, Hades will also be thrown in the hell.


    In Hades, he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far off, and Lazarus at his bosom.

    Luke 16:23


    Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

    Revelation 20:12-15
     
  11. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ Supporter

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    You are most welcome. I used to strongly believe in ECT (Eternal Concious Torment). I was on the fence on Conditional Immortality and ECT for a while until I started to read more Scripture and realized that ECT was not biblical in any way. Not to mention, ECT is impossible to explain in a moral sense, as well.


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  12. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ Supporter

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    The KJV is not wrong for saying "hell." I believe the English word "hell" is a broad term used to either refer to "hades" i.e. the place of torments (Commonly understood by most as the place of "hell"), or it can refer to Gehenna, i.e. the Lake of Fire. While I am not a Greek expert (And while I do not like to make Greek interpretations of my own), I do trust scholars in this particular instance because it helps to explain a lot of the verses in regards to Conditional Immortality. For the KJV was written in 1600's English (Which is not the same as Modern English). Words sometimes simply had different meanings back then.


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  13. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldly! Supporter

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    It's really not a matter of the use of 'forever' (αἰών aiṓn) as you use above, but the word used by Jesus Christ in Matthew 25----Eternal/Everlasting (αἰώνιος aiṓnios)

    Matthew 25: NKJV

    37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

    41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

    44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


    Everlasting was used to describe punishment and eternal was used to speak of life. Yet they are the same Greek word αἰώνιος aiṓnios.

    1. without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be

    2. without beginning

    3. without end, never to cease, everlasting
    αἰώνιος aiṓnios, ahee-o'-nee-os; from G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):—eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

    Yes, but you stopped short...

    Revelation 14: NKJV

    9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”


    I guess one could argue only those who actually receive the mark of the beast get the full raw meal deal in hell and everyone else condemned to hell gets annihilation.

    Hell is a pretty serious deal. Seems annihilation of the soul is an opt out clause many who hate life as it is now would welcome. However, if annihilationists are wrong, then those who 'hoped for' certain unconscious destruction are in for a rude awakening (no pun intended).

    In matters as serious as hell or the lake of fire, I would go with what Jesus said every day. He said 'everlasting punishment' and that seals the deal for me.

    The next most sobering passage is from the apostle Paul.

    2 Thessalonians 1: NKJV

    3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

    11 Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power, 12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.


    I know the 'everlasting destruction' is used by annihilationists. However, within the context of "from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power" shows a conscious enduring state; not a permanent cut off.




     
  14. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldly! Supporter

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    Or the pastor could be wrong and thinking in accordance with materialism. For we know the flesh we currently have is perishable but before we enter the Kingdom we will be resurrected with imperishable bodies.
     
  15. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldly! Supporter

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    Why?
     
  16. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ Supporter

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    Yes, the text says "everlasting." I believe that word means forever. But again, the text says "everlasting punishment" and the text does not say "everlasting punishing" or "everlasting torture in flames." Everlasting life is contrasted with the everlasting consequences or punishment of being destroyed or erased at some point in the Lake of Fire.

    The Lake of Fire is a temporary place. The fire is "everlasting" as long as the time of when the Lake of Fire exists. For does Philemon 1:15 suggest that the word "forever" be interpreted as "forever", too? Surely not. Unless of course you believe Onesimus is still alive with his master today or something. In other words, the word "forever" is "forever" as long as the time that they live here upon the Earth.

    Isaiah 34:10 says,
    "It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever."

    This is talking about the city of Edom.
    Are we to assume that the city of Edom is still in flames today?
    Surely not. So it is a metaphorical phrase describing utter destruction.
    As for the phrase, "they have no rest day or night who worship the beast and his image."
    This is jumping back to those who will worship the beast here upon this Earth.
    They will not be able to rest day or not while worshipng the beast because of the painful boils that will be upon them (Revelation 16:2).

    Not at all. The text does not simply say what you think it does.

    So not believing in the proper view of hell is a salvation issue?
    I don't believe that.
    Actually, I believe it is wrong to hold to the ECT view because you cannot explain it on a moral level.
    Anything that cannot explained as good and moral is not of God.

    But Jesus should have used the word "punishing" and not "punishment" if he was talking about the wicked being tortured for all eternity (Which is pretty sadistic if you ask me).

    For example: I can say that Rick and his family will receive an everlasting reward of 10,000 dollars for their good deed in finding a criminal and bringing him to justice; And yet the criminal received everlasting punishment in prison. This does not mean that the criminal is living in the prison for all time and being tortured there.

    Again, the word "destruction" does not conjure up a picture of unending torture for me. The word "destruction" does not mean that. You have to allegorize that word in order to make it work for you. The meaning of "destroy" or "destruction" means it is no more. When I destroy something it is no longer the same thing that it was before. Everlasting destruction is exactly what happens. The wicked are destroyed for all eternity. They are no more because they are destroyed or annihilated.


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  17. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ Supporter

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    You should ask that question to the majority of bible believing churches who taught you ECT.
    They will not be able to give you an answer.
    Why? Because it is immoral to torture somebody waaaay beyond a finite amount of crimes committed here upon this Earth. Also, believers are not sinning against God for all eternity, either. The wicked do not own time machines whereby they sin against God for all time. Just because God is eternal does not change the amount of crimes they committed against God. Also, while crimes are more serious in regards to certain individuals or beings, there is no instance where unending torture in extreme amounts of pain is considered fair punishment.

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  18. RaymondG

    RaymondG Well-Known Member

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    How do you know that you will live forever? Maybe you just get one more life until that life runs out. It says "everlasting life", not "everlasting living"

    Do you go to the bible for truth, or just to confirm your own beliefs and ideas of morality?
     
  19. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ Supporter

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    You went completely left field in what I was saying. My point was to say that there is a way to interpret the Bible and the best way to do so is to use the Bible when you interpret something. To disagree with that is like saying that we should not use any context or cross references to help with our understanding of various verses in the Bible.


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    Last edited: Apr 26, 2017
  20. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ Supporter

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    Jesus says I come to give you life and so that you may have have it more abundantly. This would obviously extend out into future where we see the saints on the Eternal New Earth (In Revelation) where there is no more death, disease, pain, or sorrow, etc.

    Yes, I do go to the Bible for truth. Most just believe what their church says about things and they do not check those things for themselves like a good Berean.

    As for morality: Do you believe God is against morality? If God is for morality, do you think that you would be able to see that in the Bible? Or should we just blindly follow other men in what they say the BIble says and turn off our moral compasses?


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