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Featured The Dualistic Conditional Immortality View of Hell

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Bible Highlighter, Apr 26, 2017.

  1. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    Again, that is Jesus and His human body died. God, His Father, never died.
     
  2. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    Yes, they're very different. Grammar is very important. Spirit is a noun, it is a thing. Spiritual is an adjective, it is a descriptive term used to describe a noun. An Adjective gives a quality of a noun. If I said, this ice cream is heaven, it would be very different than saying this ice cream is heavenly. Saying, 'this ice cream is heaven would be saying that the place called heaven is the ice cream. By saying this ice cream is heavenly, i'm importing some quality of heaven to the ice cream. Heaven is considered a wonderful place. By saying the ice cream is heavenly, I'm importing this idea of wonderful to the ice cream. So, if we say there is a spirit body, we are saying that there is a body that is spirit. If we say there is a spiritual body, we are saying that there is a body that has some quailty/qualities of the Spirit. We have in Scripture an example of a spiritual body and it is very much a flesh and bone body. It is not a spirit. Remember, in context, Paul is comparing the current state of being with the resurrection. The spiritual body is the resurrected body. Jesus had a resurrected body which He said was flesh and bone.
     
  3. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    There's a lot that can be said on this point. However, one has to be open to what the Scriptures say. If the Scriptures say Lazarus was dead, then he was dead. Jesus didn't Lazarus' body is dead. That is adding to the text. You've insisted on the plain reading of the text and yet in passages such as this you've added to the text what isn't there. That you have to add to the text should be an indication that there is something wrong in the position that you hold. Any theological position must be able to accommodate all of Scripture in order to be correct.

    That you're claiming there is nothing in the text that suggests a figurative interpretation in a book that is filled with figurative language suggests to me that you're simply arguing for a theological position.

    If man was a spirit then we should expect to see this in Scripture, yet the Scriptures do not refer to dead men as spirits
     
  4. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Where in scripture can we find that the Body Jesus was resurrected in was His Glorified Body He presently has ?

    I submit that it was the self same Body that hung on the cross, and did not have any appreciable difference to His pre cross Body, save the fact it was drained of blood and could not be put to death again. It was not glorified until the ascension.
    I submit Jesus is not in that same flesh and bone body today.
     
  5. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    Where in Scripture do you find they are different?

    John said, any spirit that does not confess that Jesus has come in the flesh is of anti-christ. The word translated "has come" is "erchomai" and it's in the perfect tense. The perfect tense indicates a past action whose results continue until the present. That indicates that Jesus was still in the flesh when John wrote 1 John. If you're going to claim that Jesus' flesh body is different than His glorified body, you have no basis in Scripture. It would have had to take place after John wrote his epistle and he doesn't say anything about Jesus changing into yet another body. Therefore there's no support for such and idea.

    I agree it was the same body that hung on the cross. That's the whole point of resurrection. Firstly you've not differentiated between the two. What is the difference? Secondly, when he appeared to the disciples in the upper room He had already ascended. When He first appeared to Mary He told her not to touch Him because He had not yet ascended to the Father. However, when He appeared to the disciples in the upper room He told them to touch Him. Somewhere between the two it would seem that He ascended to the Father. It was at this point that He said He was flesh and bone. So, the body He had was after He had ascended.

    Additionally, if He is not in the same body you are left with the same problem, re-incarnation. Nowhere does the Bible give any indication that Jesus or anyone will be re-incarnated.
     
  6. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Please consider the following:

    John 7.39. 'But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.'

    Here we see that the spirit would be given when Jesus was glorified. During the forty days after his resurrection, the HS was not given. Only after the ascension was the HS given.

    John 12.16. 'These things His disciples did not understand at the first; but when Jesus was glorified, then they remembered that these things were written of Him, and that they had done these things to Him.'

    In the context of this verse Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the donkey and the people cheered. This, again, was only understood by them after his ascension and not during the 40 days.

    John 17.24. ' "Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world."

    Here, Jesus expressly declared that the disciples would 'behold [His] glory' when they were with him where he was. This was not referring anytime on earth, but must be referring to after his ascension.

    Acts 1.9. 'And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.'

    Lastly, we know that 'cloud' represents the glory of God. It's clear that it was at this moment that Jesus was glorified.

    I know of no scripture confirming any trip to heaven by Christ prior to the ascension.

    So , if I understand you correctly, you are asserting that, sometime after He came out of the tomb and appeared to Mary, but before he appeared to His apostles, that Christ ascended to heaven and presented Himslef as the firstfruits offering, then returned to earth once that offering was accepted By God.

    If this is your position, I don't see How you can reconcile it with Hebrews 9:24?
    "For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:"

    The writer of Hebrews, writing in the 60's AD, some 30 years after your proposed "ascention & return" claimed that at the time he was writing, Christ was presently in heaven offering himself as the sacrifice for us.

    Your view has Him offering Himself the 2nd day after passover, returning, then ascending again and offering himself AGAIN, which the writer of Hebrews explicitly says CAN NOT BE:

    Hebrews 9:25-26
    "25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.'

    Besides, He told Mary not to "Cling to" Him.

    John 20:17 NKJ
    "Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'

    The greek for "Cling" or "Touch" here is "Haptomai" which means:
    to fasten one's self to, adhere to, cling to.

    This is not a simple finger extended "touching" of Christ being described here as Thomas did, this is Mary seeing the risin Christ and, not surprisingly, CLINGING to Him.

    Jesus tells her not to Cling to Him, in effect because Both He and She had important work yet to do. They would have an eternity to cling to eachother, but Christ effectively told her to "let go" at that point because there was yet unfinished business they both needed to attend to.

    Christ ascended to the Father once, and it is recorded for us at the beginning of the Book of the Acts of the Apostles.
     
  7. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    You've got quite a few assumptions here. And, if His resurrected body is His glorified body, the Holy Spirit was given after His glorification. John didn't say the instant Jesus is glorified the Holy Spirit will come



    When some people understood it has no bearing on when Jesus was glorified.

    No, it doesn't say that. Jesus said, "I desire". A desire is something one wants. However, again, if His resurrected body is His gloried body then they were with Him and did see His glory. You're required by what you believe to claim that his is not referring to time on earth. Yet Jesus didn't say any such thing.

    That's sheer speculation. The Scriptures don't say that.



    I know of no Scripture that Jesus as glorified when He rose in the cloud. Sometimes we have use logic. Jesus told Mary not to touch Him because He had not ascended to the Father. So, the reason He couldn't be touched was because He had not ascended to the Father. Later He tells the disciples to touch Him. The logical conclusion is...He ascended to heaven between the two events.



    I asserted no such thing. I simple asserted that Christ ascended to the Father between seeing Mary and seeing the disciples. I said nothing of what He did or didn't do.

    If this is your position, I don't see How you can reconcile it with Hebrews 9:24?
    "For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:"

    Your's does too. What's your point?

    I said no such thing. That was your idea.

    Did you read what you quoted? Jesus said, " I am ascending". That's present tense. He was in the process of ascending.

    Again, this is sheer speculation

    Then I guess you have an issue with John 20:17
     
  8. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    I guess somebody forgot to mention that fact to John:

    Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 1 John 3:2
    Why?
    What would allow him to be touched after your presupposed ascension and return?
    Again, why could He then be touched? What happened that allowed the touching?

    Well, Your proposed ascension and return is sheer speculation, so what's your point?

    Only you get to speculate?
     
  9. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    I'm not sure what you're getting at here. John's readers obviously had not seen the resurrected Christ.


    Touching isn't the point. The point is He was ascending


    Again, that's not the point



    Speculation? Did you read the passage you posted. Jesus said, "I am ascending to my Father and your Father." He used a present tense verb. That's what He was doing when He spoke to Mary.

    Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. (Jn. 20:17 KJV)

    I'm not speculating. It's right there in print.
     
  10. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    John had, yet he includes himself in the "we". Are you saying he lied when he said "it has not yet been revealed what we shall be"?
    You're telling me it HAD been revealed, and John witnessed it. Which is it?

    Inspired Eyewitness Apostle John said it had NOT been revealed, Random 21st century Internet Guy Butch5 says it HAD been revealed.

    When faced with deciding which of these two polar opposite claims to accept as truth, my money's on the Apostle. Sorry Random Internet guy.

    2Corinthians 5:16
    16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.

    Just how long do you say "no longer" is?

    You're the one that brought up touching vs. not touching as a claim of evidence for your pre-supposed ascension and return.
    I'm challenging you to demonstrate that assertion.
    Do you know longer believe that evidence supports your Theory?

    So your position is, He was at that time, present tense, "not yet ascended" and also "actively ascending"? Simultaneously?

    How far off the ground must you speculate He was at the moment she tried to touch Him?
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2017
  11. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    What's John talking about in that passage? We know that John saw the resurrected Christ. He saw His resurrected body. You've conjectured that Christ is in a different body now, yet haven't given a shred of evidence that would support that idea. It appears to me that you're taking your understanding of that passage and imposing it on the text. If you believe that this passage supports your claim that Jesus is in a different body than He was before the cross, please explain how.



    I didn't say anything had been revealed. I simply pointed out that Christ had already ascended. It was you who started talking about things being revealed.

    Is your money on the Apostle? I ask because when I posted the Apostle's recording of Jesus words to Mary, "I am ascending," you seemed to reject what I posted.

    [/quote]2Corinthians 5:16
    16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.

    Just how long do you say "no longer" is?[/quote]

    If you understand what Paul is saying there, please explain.



    You're the one that brought up touching vs. not touching as a claim of evidence for your pre-supposed ascension and return.
    I'm challenging you to demonstrate that assertion.
    Do you know longer believe that evidence supports your Theory?



    So your position is, He was at that time, present tense, "not yet ascended" and also "actively ascending"? Simultaneously?

    How far off the ground must you speculate He was at the moment she tried to touch Him?[/QUOTE]
     
  12. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Simple.
    John was an eyewitness to the resurrected Christ, but claims in that passage that He still had not seen Him "as He is" (present tense, post ascension) and at that time believed "as He is" had not yet been revealed to him.

    Since you disagree, I am happy to entertain your alternate interpretation to that passage.

    Your claim was that Christ was raised in a glorified Body.
    Scripture nowhere teaches this, so you must infer and speculate to support your claim.

    There is no scripture that teaches Christ ascended and returned prior to the one and only ascension found in Acts 1.

    I have scoured as many reputable commentaries on As I could find to find one that agrees with your view of John 20:17 with no luck. Could you point me to any? Of The commentaries I could find that address the "i am ascending", they all agree with my understanding. Does anybody else hold your view or are you alone in possession of this "truth"?

    I suspect You don't need me to explain.
    No more = No more

    Since you disagree, I'm happy to entertain your alternative interpretation.
     
  13. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    But, you still haven't given any evidence of a different body. It seems to me that you're speculating on this passage. What does "as He is" refer too? Obviously John hadn't seen Him "as He is" because Christ was no longer on the earth. "as He is" could refer to a number of things. It seems to me you're understanding it to mean Christ's physical appearance. What in the context leads you to believe that?

    Remember that your interpretation has to align with rest of Scripture. Also remember that Peter, James, and John, were given a vision of Christ coming in His kingdom at the Transfiguration. It was said that Moses and Elijah appeared with Him "in glory".

    There's no point. This passage isn't relative to the discussion unless you can give evidence of another body. Unless you can provide evidence of another body, it would seem to me that you're just misunderstanding the passage.



    No, you're the one who brought up the glorified body. I said Christ's raised body was the spiritual body that Paul spoke of.

    You can deny it if you choose to. What John wrote is pretty clear. Jesus said, "I am ascending to my Father". That was right after His resurrection.

    Where does Scripture say He only ascended?

    Commentaries don't matter. Three of the most universally accepted doctrines in Christianity today aren't even Biblical. I doesn't matter how many people agree with you, it doesn't make you right. Most Christians believe that believers go to Heaven when they die, yet there isn't a single passage of Scripture that says any such thing. Likewise, most believe that after they die their "soul" lives on, again, not single passage of Scripture teaches such a things. Many Christians believe in a place of eternal conscious torment for the wicked, again, not what the Scriptures teach. Right there you have millions and millions of Christians in agreement, that doesn't make them right.

    The bottom line is what did Jesus say? He said, "I am ascending to my Father." Given your position I only see two way to resolve this. Either one has to reject what Jesus said, or claim that the "ascending" was continuous of the 40 day period. If that is the case I have one question. Why did He tell Mary not to cling to Him?


    No, I really would like you to explain it. I've found that Christians tend to proof text a passage, impart their own understanding to the passage, and then claim this is what the Bible says. The reason I'd like you to explain is so that I can see how your understanding of the passage fits with the context of Paul's statement.

    You haven't given me an explanation to disagree with yet.
     
  14. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    So your claim is something about Him Changed after leaving earth?

    name one or two.

    Does "See Him as He is" have any Visual, Optical component?

    Indeed. Completely different from any eyewitness account of His post resurrection Body on earth.

    And the evidence for that is?

    Again, you claim he was, simultaneously, not yet ascended and actively ascending, right?

    Then neither does your commentary here.

    Or it was spoken in the present tense to refer to a near future tense as many have interpreted.

    Others do assert that the Ascending was a continuous process that took 40 days.
    I'm not in that camp, but it is interesting.

    Truth is, there is no unified interpretation of this passage within christendom. They are many and varied.

    Who's to say yours is the correct one?

    Vincent's word Study Commentary portrays it this way:

    I ascend (ἀναβαίνω)

    The present tense is used, not in the sense of the near future, but implying that He had already entered upon that new stage of being which the actual ascension formally inaugurated. The resurrection was really the beginning of the ascension.


    Again from Vincent:

    Touch me not (μή μοῦ ἅπτου)

    The verb, primarily, means to fasten to. Hence it implies here, not a mere momentary touch, but a clinging to. Mary thought that the old relations between her Lord and herself were to be renewed; that the old intercourse, by means of sight, sound, and touch, would go on as before. Christ says, "the time for this kind of intercourse is over. Henceforth your communion with me will be by faith through the Spirit. This communion will become possible through my ascending to the Father."


    Kinda like you do with John 20:17?
    Or is it different when you do it?

    Simple... They Knew Jesus in the flesh before the crucifixion, as well as after the resurrection, but after the ascension they know him that way no more.
    I maintain "no more" has no terminus.

    If you can show "no more" as being a temporary condition, have at it.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2017
  15. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Verses that Suggest Eternal Conscious Torment (At 1st Glance):

    1. Matthew 18:6-9
    (Better to have a millestone attached to one's neck and be drowned at sea; And better to enter life with one eye than having any body part cast into everlasting hell fire.):
    "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire."

    2. Matthew 25:46
    (Eternal Life vs. Everlasting punishment):
    "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

    3. Mark 9:48
    (Where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched):
    "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

    4. Jude 1:13
    (They are reserved for the blackness of darkness forever.):
    "Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever."

    5. Revelation 14:9-11 (Smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever and have no rest day or night):
    If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

    6. Revelation 20:10 (Tormented day and night forever and ever):
    "And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

    Verses that Strongly Suggest Conditional Immortality:

    1. Genesis 3:22 HCSB (Adam did not naturally have immortality)
    “he must not reach out, take from the tree of life, eat, and live forever."

    2. 2 Peter 2:5-6 NHEB
    (The wicked are condemned to destruction in global flood as an example of all who live Godly thereafter):
    “and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah with seven others, a proclaimer of righteousness, when he brought a flood on the world of the ungodly; and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, having made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly.”

    3. (a) 2 Thessalonians 1:9
    (The wicked will be punished with "everlasting destruction"):
    (This is the everlasting punishment in Matthew 25:46).
    (It is a destruction that has everlasting consequences):
    "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.

    4. (a) Deuteronomy 7:10 (God destroys the wicked forever and repays them to their face):
    “And repays them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hates him, he will repay him to his face.”
    (b) 2 Peter 2:12
    “But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;”
    (c) Psalms 92:7
    “When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:”

    5. Job 4:8-9 (The wicked are consumed):
    “Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same. By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed.”

    6. (a) Psalms 1:6 (The ungodly will perish):
    “For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.”
    (b) Luke 13:3
    “I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
    (c) Job 4:8-9
    “Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same. By the blast of God they perish..."
    (d) 2 Peter 2:12
    “But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;”
    (e) Psalms 68:2
    "...as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God."

    7. (a) Ezekiel 3:18-20 (The wicked will die):
    “When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul. Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.”
    (b) Ezekiel 18:4
    “Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die”

    8. (a) Romans 1:32 (The fate of the wicked is death):
    “Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.”
    (b) Romans 6:21
    “What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.”

    9. Revelation 21:8
    (The wicked will experience a "second death"):
    (It is called the "second death" because it relates to the "first death"):
    "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
    ‭‭
    10. 1 John 2:17 (The world passes away):
    “And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever”

    11. 1 John 5:11-13 (Eternal Life is only though abiding in the Son):
    “And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.”

    12. 2 Timothy 1:10 (Immortality and Life is only through the gospel):
    "But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel."

    13. 1 Timothy 6:16 (Jesus alone has immortality):
    (Are we to assume Jesus abides in the wicked to give them life for all eternity?):
    "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen"

    14. Isaiah 14:12 and Isaiah 14:19 (The Annihialation of the Devil):
    (Lucifer's carcase will be trodden under foot):
    (a) Isaiah 14:12
    “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!”
    Isaiah 14:19
    ‭‭“....thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.”
    (The Anointed Cherub that fell will be brought to ashes):
    ‭‭(b) Ezekiel 28:14-15 and Ezekiel 28:18
    Ezekiel 28:14-15
    “Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.”
    Ezekiel 28:18
    “Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.” (Ezekiel 28:18)

    15. 1 Corinthians 15:26
    (The last enemy (death) is destroyed; This suggests that God's other enemies are destroyed):
    “The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death”

    16. Matthew 10:28
    (Fear the one who can destroy both body AND soul in the Lake of Fire):
    (Why fear something that Jesus will never do?):
    “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [i.e. Gehenna or Lake of Fire].”

    17. Isaiah 66:22-24
    (On the Eternal New Earth, The Saints will Witness the Lifeless Remains of the Wicked):
    "For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."

    18. Psalms 68:2
    (The wicked will melt like wax before a fire):
    "...as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God."

    19. Romans 5:10
    (Jesus paid the price for punishment of sin with His death and not unending torture in flames.):
    "For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life."

    20. Psalms 37:9-10
    (Evil doers will be: cut off, and be no more):
    "For evildoers will be cut off, But those who wait for the LORD, they will inherit the land. Yet a little while and the wicked man will be no more; and you will look carefully for his place and he will not be there."

    21. Isaiah 1:31
    (The wicked will disappear like straw and they will burn up like in a fire):
    "The strongest among you will disappear like straw; their evil deeds will be the spark that sets it on fire. They and their evil works will burn up together, and no one will be able to put out the fire."

    22. Obadiah 1:16 (The wicked will be as though they never been):
    " …and they shall be as though they had never been."


    ...
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2017
  16. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    Good you got Matthew 10:28 into the list, since it's very convincing, but what about John 3:16? The word is we are either given eternal life or "perish". "Perish" doesn't sound much like continuing to live.

    Also, "second death" doesn't sound at all like "second life" does it?

    A piece which would tie everything together in a consistent way is that humans do not have eternal life unless given it, but in contrast that angels do, so that the fallen angels do already....Ergo, they could continue in the lake of fire, but not us, since we lack eternal life.
     
  17. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Thank you. I added three more to the list; And I will add more later.

    May God bless you.


    ...
     
  18. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    .
    The story about the rich man was just that "A Story" it was the medium Jesus used to explain a truth to the Pharisees, the rich man never really existed, and the story itself isn't about Hell as you suppose.

    Luke 16:14
    And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.

    They being the Leaders should have known who Jesus was, but they rejected Him and His teachings.

    Jesus therefore used this story to give them a Prophesy they would not understand until it came to pass, and even then they would not Believe, for you see, they were the Brothers spoken of in the story, which would not listen to Moses and the Prophets, and they would not listen to HIM either.

    Luke 16:31
    And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

    Now lets move on to Hell and where it stands in the future.

    Rev. 20:10
    And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    As you can see, The Lake of Fire and Brimstone, is a PLACE of TORMENT for Ever and Ever


    G165
    αἰών
    aiōn
    ahee-ohn'
    From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.

    G104
    ἀεί
    aei
    ah-eye'
    From an obsolete primary noun (apparently meaning continued duration); “ever”; by qualification regularly; by implication earnestly: - always, ever.

    G5550
    χρόνος
    chronos
    khron'-os
    Of uncertain derivation; a space of time (in genitive case, and thus properly distinguished from G2540, which designates a fixed or special occasion; and from G165, which denotes a particular period) or interval; by extension an individual opportunity; by implication delay: - + years old, season, space, (X often-) time (-s), (a) while.


    Now we come to Hell and it's future position.

    Rev. 20:14
    And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    Hell itself only lasts as long as there are people to be put into it, then Hell itself is cast into the Lake of Fire, with the Devil, the Beast, the False Prophet, and Death, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    So then your theory of "The Dualistic Conditional Immortality" is incorrect.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2017
  19. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    To prove that you need at least one Bible verse where anyone is not just annihilated but annihilated forever (or the equivalent). Since no such Scripture exists in the 66 books of God, endless annihilation is not according to God's Word.

    None of the verses you listed support your viewpoint:


    Nothing in Gen.3:22 says Adam (or anyone else) will get endless annihilation.

    To the contrary all will get life, justification & righteousness:

    Rom.5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
    19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

    http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
     
  20. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    So Sin & Suffering is never fully eradicated from existence... There will always and forever be Sin and sinners existing in their suffering state of Sin.

    Victory over Sin is only for the Saved. The unrepentant will NEVER share in Christ's victory over Sin, they will FOREVER be in it.

    Thats what I always figured. Nice to see it laid out so clearly tho.
    Thx.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2017
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