The Dualistic Conditional Immortality View of Hell

mmksparbud

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The only way anyone can believe in eternal punishment is if they believe that the soul is immortal. It is not---God only is immortal. It is what He is---we are given immortality as a gift. It is our reward. The lost do not get a reward of eternal life, which is what God would have to do to keep them being punished.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Again, God told Adam and Eve that they would die if they ate of the tree, not that they would be punished forever.
 
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Gabriel Anton

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Peace be with you, Jason.


I've read your post about the forever bit, forever can be this sometimes or can be that sometimes.


How do you know that you will live forever? Maybe you just get one more life until that life runs out. It says "everlasting life", not "everlasting living"

Do you go to the bible for truth, or just to confirm your own beliefs and ideas of morality?


Read RaymondG's post, Jason.


Jesus says I come to give you life and so that you may have have it more abundantly. This would obviously extend out into future where we see the saints on the Eternal New Earth (In Revelation) where there is no more death, disease, pain, or sorrow, etc.


Now, read your response. That sounds bias. You seem to be bias for Life in terms of your use of the words, "Eternal" and "Forever."


If we go by your treatment of what forever means, the just treatment of forever in regards to life in your view should also be related to the way you view punishment for sins.

So if punishment for sins is not forever.


That means that reward for obedience to God is not forever.


This is just treatment without bias.


That means you get only as much Life as the amount of obedience you have shown to God.


Because like you said, Forever is not forever because the Scriptures demonstrate that Forever can be not forever.


So for your Theology to not be biased, the Life God rewards you will be in accordance to your obedience to God otherwise God is not fair nor just. God cannot give you more than what you deserve. So in your treatment of sins that they are of a finite amount therefore those sins cannot be punished forever.

So also your obedience to God is also a finite amount therefore God cannot reward you with Life forever. He can only reward you with a finite amount of Life based on your finite amount of obedience for God.


Do you understand what I'm trying to tell you?


Jason, don't discount what aiki is trying to tell you. You know aiki, he finds reading the Scriptures for 4 or 5 hours at a time to be Fantastic. For all you know maybe he has been sent by God to correct you. That's the way God operates.


Jason, don't discount Der Alter's treatment of this field of Theology. He is extremely thorough.


God bless you.
 
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aiki

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The only way anyone can believe in eternal punishment is if they believe that the soul is immortal.

Yes, that's right. The Bible is pretty clear, it seems to me, about this being the case.

It is what He is---we are given immortality as a gift.

Yes, but God is immortal in a singular way: He never began to exist. His immortality has no end and it has no beginning. We, obviously, do not share this kind of immortality with God. We began to exist a finite time ago in the past. Immortality is given to us all by God with the potential for it to be a reward - or a terrible punishment.

The lost do not get a reward of eternal life, which is what God would have to do to keep them being punished.

Certainly, their immortality is not the reward it is for the born-again believer. Existence in hell is a kind of living death, the "second death," the Bible calls it, a punishment where one lives in utter and unending ruination, forever separated from their Maker.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Amen! A great verse. But as in other instances in Scripture, "perish" does not mean "annihilation" or "the total cessation of being." It refers to the total loss, not of being, but of well-being.

Again, God told Adam and Eve that they would die if they ate of the tree, not that they would be punished forever.

It seems to me that their sin in Eden did not cut them off utterly from God. While their sin brought them suffering, the death of their physical bodies, and their ejection from Eden, God continues to interact with them and their children. We read, for instance, of God repeatedly talking with Cain in Genesis 4. And God had, apparently, shown Abel and Cain the proper kinds of sacrifices to make to Him. So, God does not punish Adam and Eve with hell for what they did, but only with the physical consequences of their sin. They were, after all, making sacrifices to God which was the OT way God had instituted of atoning for sin.

Selah.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]
n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said

Well, not all Jews through out history were always experts on spiritual matters. How so? They missed their Messiah. I would recommend watching some videos by Edward Fudge and his talks on history in regards to Conditional Immortality if you are truly a history buff. Personally, that is not my cup of tea; I just stick with God's Word. That is my authority. I believe history written by men is not always 100% reliable. I believe God's Word is reliable because it is clearly divine in origin. If history happens to back up God's Word, then that is different. But to prove a doctrine or belief that is controversial by pointing to man made history is not exactly a convincing argument for me because men are liars and they are fallible (or flawed). However, God's Word is reliable and true. I hope you understand (where I am coming from).

Der Alter said:
[Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

Words are written down in a certain way as to communicate a specific point to us.
An unbiased reader would not conclude what these particular Jews had concluded on the above passages. When I read about carcases, I get an image of lifeless bodies (that have been destroyed) and not an image of living forever in flames.

As for the worm not dying:

Chris Date (A Conditionalist) says,

"If we were to consistently take “will not die” to mean “will never die,” we would make a mess of Scripture. Joseph tells his brothers in Genesis 42:20, “Bring your youngest brother to me, so your words may be verified, and you will not die.” The Lord directs Moses in Exodus 30:20, “When they enter the tent of meeting, they shall wash with water, so that they will not die.” Zedekiah says to Jeremiah in Jeremiah 38:24, “Let no man know about these words and you will not die.” Obviously Joseph’s brothers did not think he was promising them immortality; Moses was not assured that by washing with water when entering the tent the priests would never die; Jeremiah did not take Zedekiah to mean he would live forever by remaining silent.

When the statement is recorded in Scripture, that someone or something “will not die,” a specific context is in view; no life is promised beyond that context. And in Isaiah 66:24, that context is the consumption of a corpse. Their worm, it is promised, will not die in that context, will not be prevented by death from consuming its host. This is an assurance that the abhorrent process of decay will continue unabated until the corpse is completely consumed;"​

Source:
Their Worm Does Not Die: Annihilation and Mark 9:48

But let's say for the sake of argument that the worms do not actually die. This still does not change anything. Just because the worms may be eternal and live on after they consume the corpses, does not mean that the corpses that they once fed upon are also eternal. These corpses are not said to be living corpses who are eternal.

Der Alter said:
When Jesus taught about,
• “Then shall he say … Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41

But Scripture says that the final fate of the devil is that he will be a carcase who is trodden under foot and a fire will devour him and he will be ashes in the sight of those who will behold him.


• Isaiah 14:12, Isaiah 14:19

12 “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!” 19 “....thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.”​
‭‭
• Ezekiel 28:14-15, Ezekiel 28:18

Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.”

“Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.”
As for the word, "everlasting" in reference to "fire" in Matthew 25:41,

Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting" until -- they "were shattered" Habakkuk 3:6).
The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Exodus 40:15), that is-until-it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).
The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:11-13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).

But lets just say for the sake of argument that the fire is "everlasting" in the eternal sense. It still does not change anything. The fire can continue on for all time, but that does not mean that those who are inside the fire could not be consumed within it's flames. Yes, I realize the parallel appears to be destroyed between everlasting punisment/everlasting fire vs. life eternal. But the word "eternal" in reference to "life" is used and not "everlasting." Granted, we see elsewhere in Scripture the words, "everlasting life." But we do not see that word used here to make an exact parallel as you would like there to be. Also, when talking about God, things are in context to being eternal. For without God, there is no immortality. In fact, in 1 Timothy 6:16, it is said that Christ alone has immortality. 1 John 5:12 says, he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life. This is not talking about just a quality of life alone but "everlasting life" and "immortality" that can only be found in the Son (i.e. Jesus).

Der Alter said:
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"

2 Thessalonians 1:9 tells us what kind of "everlasting punishment" this is. It says that it is an "everlasting destruction." Again, if we are to take words literally here, we have to realize that this is an actual destruction. You cannot keep destroying something and yet have it also exist at the same time. If I am destroying something, and I keep doing that, eventually it will not longer be within my visible sight anymore. It will not be the same thing that it was. The consequences are everlasting. It is a destruction that is everlasting in consequence.

Der Alter said:
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched... Mark 9:43-48"

What about the word unquenched in relation to fire in Scripture?

Here is a snippet from an article on this point. It says,

"Similarly, Jeremiah 17:27 reads, “If you do not listen to me … I will kindle a fire in its gates and it will devour the palaces of Jerusalem and not be quenched.” God did not threaten that the buildings of Jerusalem would burn perpetually forever, but that, unable to be extinguished, his fire would reduce them to rubble. Amos 5:6 likewise says, “He will break forth like a fire, O house of Joseph, and it will consume with none to quench it.

Even traditionalists often recognize that in these texts and others, in which the fire of God is not able to be quenched, it does not mean the object of God’s wrath will burn forever, but that the fire will burn unabated until its intended destruction is complete."​

Source:
http://www.rethinkinghell.com/2012/11/the-fire-is-not-quenched-annihilation-and-mark-948-part-2/

In real life, the forest fires that had set the West on fire appeared to be unquenchable for fire fighters because they were super intense. But does that really mean these seemingly unquenchable forest fires will last for all eternity? No. Fire will eventually go out after it consumes it's fuel.

Der Alter said:
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50

They will wail and gnash their teeth for a set amount of time before they are consumed. There is no conflict here. These things do not sound like activities that are of considerable length here (like say, fighting each other in great battles and or yelling out long speeches to each other).

Der Alter said:
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6

There is no denying that hell fire (from the Lake of Fire) will be very painful for the wicked (when they are cast into it). But the wicked will eventually be consumed or destroyed. However, I am not against the idea that the wicked may be punished in the Lake of Fire for a set amount of time for their crimes here upon this Earth (before they are destroyed both body and soul as Jesus says). Burning alive in fire for even one hour is a very agonizing thought. People have broke under the pains of torture for a lot less time than that. Then one has to also realize that their sin will be exposed before God and possibly for all the world to see, as well.

Der Alter said:
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24

Again, I am not denying that the Lake of Fire is a place whereby the wicked will be punished for a set amount of time. But this would be in porportion to the sin they committed here and then they will be destroyed. In fact, this verse is proof against ECT because it is suggesting that his damnation/punishment is greater and not equal to all the wicked. This means God is into fair justice (of which we see in Luke 12:47-48.

Der Alter said:
A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Again, I am not in disagreement with this. I believe that when the wicked are judged, it will shake them to the core and when they are cast into the Lake of Fire, it will be very painful for the set amount of time that they will be punished there in porportion to the sins they committed here. This is why we later see the carcases brought forth before the saints on the Eternal New Earth in Isaiah 66. The wicked had been punished and or judged in regards to their sins as was befitting their crimes and then they were destroyed. Scripture says the last enemy to be destroyed is death (1 Corinthians 15:26). This suggests that there are other enemies of God that will be destroyed, as well.

Der Alter said:
The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.

Jesus did not tell the Sadducees anything in regards to "eternal concious torment."
We need Scripture showing that.

Der Alter said:
…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct.

I believed Jesus did correct those who may have held to ECT during that time with Luke 12:47-48, Luke 13:3, and Matthew 10:28, etc.

In any event, may God bless you.
And please be well.


...
 
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Butch5

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But nowhere does this passage say that parables are fictious or make believe stories to illustrate spiritual truth. On the contrary, many of the examples or parables Jesus gave were things that have already happened in real life. For example: You cannot put new wine into old wine skins, etc. This is something in the real world and not a story about some fictious science fiction story about some kind of alien beings on Mars somewhere (that really do not exist).

For if Jesus were to tell stories that were not true, it would damage his credibility in telling the truth. Again, I do not believe Jesus told stories that were based on a lie or that were not true. Jesus was not into telling lies or fictious stories.

In our culture it is normal to read or tell fictious stories and to watch fictious movies.
But this is not something Jesus did.


...

Firstly, you weren't there so you don't know what Jesus did. The Scriptures state clearly that He spoke to the Phairsees in parables so that they wouldn't understand. You might wan to think about this some more. If the Rich man was dead and his ghost was living on, how did he have body. Scripture says the body reutrns to dust. How did the rich man have lips, eyes, tongue etc? It's obviously a story because if it was real then it contradicts Scripture.
 
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mmksparbud

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Yes, that's right. The Bible is pretty clear, it seems to me, about this being the case.



Yes, but God is immortal in a singular way: He never began to exist. His immortality has no end and it has no beginning. We, obviously, do not share this kind of immortality with God. We began to exist a finite time ago in the past. Immortality is given to us all by God with the potential for it to be a reward - or a terrible punishment.



Certainly, their immortality is not the reward it is for the born-again believer. Existence in hell is a kind of living death, the "second death," the Bible calls it, a punishment where one in lives in utter and unending ruination, forever separated from their Maker.



Amen! A great verse. But as in other instances in Scripture, "perish" does not mean "annihilation" or "the total cessation of being." It refers to the total loss, not of being, but of well-being.



It seems to me that their sin in Eden did not cut them off utterly from God. While their sin brought them suffering, the death of their physical bodies, and their ejection from Eden, God continues to interact with them and their children. We read, for instance, of God repeatedly talking with Cain in Genesis 4. And God had, apparently, shown Abel and Cain the proper kinds of sacrifices to make to Him. So, God does not punish Adam and Eve with hell for what they did, but only with the physical consequences of their sin. They were, after all, making sacrifices to God which was the OT way God had instituted of atoning for sin.

Selah.
Totally and completely disagree. John 3:16 says "not perish BUT have eternal life", It is definitely in opposition to perish----God did not lie or in any way deceive Adam and Eve, any sin is punishable with death. It is only through the blood of Jesus that we are saved, in Adam and Eve's case, it was the sacrificial system. Immortality is ours as a gift from God, not by right of birth. But if it is your preference to believe in a God that institutes infinite punishment for finite sin, it's your choice. The Jews during the haulacoust
were punished, tormented and killed---they rejected Jesus so now, after all that suffering and torture by Hitler, they are now supposed be punished forever also----they were better off with Hitler than the God of your imagination.
 
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Der Alte

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Well, not all Jews through out history were always experts on spiritual matters. How so? They missed their Messiah. I would recommend watching some videos by Edward Fudge and his talks on history in regards to Conditional Immortality if you are truly a history buff. Personally, that is not my cup of tea; I just stick with God's Word. That is my authority. I believe history written by men is not always 100% reliable. I believe God's Word is reliable because it is clearly divine in origin. If history happens to back up God's Word, then that is different. But to prove a doctrine or belief that is controversial by pointing to man made history is not exactly a convincing argument for me because men are liars and they are fallible (or flawed). However, God's Word is reliable and true. I hope you understand (where I am coming from).
I don't do links unless they are to accredited authorities such as lexicons, grammars etc.
Words are written down in a certain way as to communicate a specific point to us.
An unbiased reader would not conclude what these particular Jews had concluded on the above passages. When I read about carcases, I get an image of lifeless bodies (that have been destroyed) and not an image of living forever in flames.
If God intends for fires to burn without destroying He can and has done so the burning bush and the three Hebrew slaves in the furnace in Daniel.
As for the worm not dying:
Chris Date (A Conditionalist) says,
"If we were to consistently take “will not die” to mean “will never die,” we would make a mess of Scripture. Joseph tells his brothers in Genesis 42:20, “Bring your youngest brother to me, so your words may be verified, and you will not die.” The Lord directs Moses in Exodus 30:20, “When they enter the tent of meeting, they shall wash with water, so that they will not die.” Zedekiah says to Jeremiah in Jeremiah 38:24, “Let no man know about these words and you will not die.” Obviously Joseph’s brothers did not think he was promising them immortality; Moses was not assured that by washing with water when entering the tent the priests would never die; Jeremiah did not take Zedekiah to mean he would live forever by remaining silent.
When the statement is recorded in Scripture, that someone or something “will not die,” a specific context is in view; no life is promised beyond that context. And in
Isaiah 66:24, that context is the consumption of a corpse. Their worm, it is promised, will not die in that context, will not be prevented by death from consuming its host. This is an assurance that the abhorrent process of decay will continue unabated until the corpse is completely consumed;"
Source:
Their Worm Does Not Die: Annihilation and Mark 9:48
I do not do links and I don't respond to long copy/pastes from random websites.
But let's say for the sake of argument that the worms do not actually die. This still does not change anything. Just because the worms may be eternal and live on after they consume the corpses, does not mean that the corpses that they once fed upon are also eternal. These corpses are not said to be living corpses who are eternal.
Why would Jesus talk about hades where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die? Why would a person who will soon be dead care about how long a fire burns and a worm lives. And as I said Jesus' on this teaching matched what many Jews believed, that the unrighteous were punished forever in fire and worms. Why would Jesus support something false without correcting it?
But Scripture says that the final fate of the devil is that he will be a carcase who is trodden under foot and a fire will devour him and he will be ashes for all those who have sight to see upon the Earth to behold him.
• Isaiah 14:12, Isaiah 14:19
12 “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!” 19 “....thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.”
This passage is about the king of Babylon not the devil!‭‭
• Ezekiel 28:14-15, Ezekiel 28:18
“Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.”
“Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.”
This passage is about the king of Tyrus not the devil.
As for the word, "everlasting" in reference to "fire" in Matthew 25:41,
Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting" until -- they "were shattered"
Habakkuk 3:6).
The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Exodus 40:15), that is-until-it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).
The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:11-13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).

But lets just say for the sake of argument that the fire is "everlasting" in the eternal sense. It still does not change anything. The fire can continue on for all time, but that does not mean that those who are inside the fire could not be consumed within it's flames. Yes, I realize the parallel appears to be destroyed between everlasting punisment/everlasting fire vs. life eternal. But the word "eternal" in reference to "life" is used and not "everlasting." Granted, we see elsewhere in Scripture the words, "everlasting life." But we do not see that word used here to make an exact parallel as you would like there to be. Also, when talking about God, things are in context to being eternal. For without God, there is no immortality. In fact, in 1 Timothy 6:16, it is said that Christ alone has immortality. 1 John 5:12 says, he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life. This is not talking about just a quality of life alone but "everlasting life" and "immortality" that can only be found in the Son (i.e. Jesus).
Does the word "everlasting" mean everlasting when it is used for God and His kingdom? When words are used hyperbolically that does not negate their correct meaning.
2 Thessalonians 1:9 tells us what kind of "everlasting punishment" this is. It says that it is an "everlasting destruction." Again, if we are to take words literally here, we have to realize that this is an actual destruction. You cannot keep destroying something and yet have it also exist at the same time. If I am destroying something, and I keep doing that, eventually it will not longer be within my visible sight anymore. It will not be the same thing that it was. The consequences are everlasting. It is a destruction that is everlasting in consequence.
This proof text says "everlasting apolommi from the presence of the Lord." Something that no longer exists cannot be "from the presence" of anything.
The word "apolummi" occurs 90 times in the NT, of this 68 times, 76%, it cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which some argue supposedly occurs at the final judgment. Some of those usages are spilled wine, broken wine skins, tarnished gold, spoiled food, lost sheep and prodigal son. The lost sheep that was found and the prodigal son who returned home were apolummi but they were no annihilated.

What about the word unquenched in relation to fire in Scripture?
Here is a snippet from an article on this point. It says,
"Similarly, Jeremiah 17:27 reads, “If you do not listen to me … I will kindle a fire in its gates and it will devour the palaces of Jerusalem and not be quenched.” God did not threaten that the buildings of Jerusalem would burn perpetually forever, but that, unable to be extinguished, his fire would reduce them to rubble. Amos 5:6 likewise says, “He will break forth like a fire, O house of Joseph, and it will consume with none to quench it.
Even traditionalists often recognize that in these texts and others, in which the fire of God is not able to be quenched, it does not mean the object of God’s wrath will burn forever, but that the fire will burn unabated until its intended destruction is complete."
Source:
http://www.rethinkinghell.com/2012/11/the-fire-is-not-quenched-annihilation-and-mark-948-part-2/
I don't do random websites.
In real life, the forest fires that had set the West on fire appeared to be unquenchable for fire fighters because they were super intense. But does that really mean these seemingly unquenchable forest fires will last for all eternity? No. Fire will eventually go out after it consumes it's fuel.
Unless God decrees otherwise as He did in Exodus 3:2 and Daniel 3:26. Funny how some folks forget that God is omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscience when scripture does not fit their assumptions/presuppositions.
They will wail and gnash their teeth for a set amount of time before they are consumed. There is no conflict here. These things do not sound like activities that are of considerable length here (like say, fighting each other in great battles and or yelling out long speeches to each other).
Where does scripture say "They will wail and gnash their teeth for a set amount of time before they are consumed." See above comment. God is not limited to the conditions of this world.
There is no denying that hell fire (from the Lake of Fire) will be very painful for the wicked (when they are cast into it). But the wicked will eventually be consumed or destroyed. However, I am not against the idea that the wicked may be punished in the Lake of Fire for a set amount of time for their crimes here upon this Earth (before they are destroyed both body and soul as Jesus says). Burning alive in fire for even one hour is a very agonizing thought. People have broke under the pains of torture for a lot less time than that. Then one has to also realize that their sin will be exposed before God and possibly for all the world to see, as well.
What God created He can destroy. Jesus did not say that God would destroy anyone body and soul. There is not one verse which speaks of God destroying anyone body and soul.
Again, I am not denying that the Lake of Fire is a place whereby the wicked will be punished for a set amount of time. But this would be in porportion to the sin they committed here and then they will be destroyed. In fact, this verse is proof against ECT because it is suggesting that his damnation/punishment is greater and not equal to all the wicked. This means God is into fair justice (of which we see in Luke 12:47-48.
What you are talking about are man's ways.

Isaiah 55:8-9
(8) For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
(9) For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Again, I am not in disagreement with this. I believe that when the wicked are judged, it will shake them to the core and when they are cast into the Lake of Fire, it will be very painful for the set amount of time that they will be punished there in porportion to the sins they committed here. This is why we later see the carcases brought forth before the saints on the Eternal New Earth in Isaiah 66. The wicked had been punished and or judged in regards to their sins as was befitting their crimes and then they were destroyed. Scripture says the last enemy to be destroyed is death (1 Corinthians 15:26). This suggests that there are other enemies of God that will be destroyed, as well.
Where does scripture say, "it will shake them to the core and when they are cast into the Lake of Fire, it will be very painful for the set amount of time that they will be punished there in porportion [sic] to the sins they committed here?"
Jesus did not tell the Sadducees anything in regards to "eternal concious torment."
We need Scripture showing that.
Scripture already posted in my previous post #139 which has not been addressed or refuted. That is exactly how many Jews would have understood "eternal punishment" Matthew 25:46
I believed Jesus did correct those who may have held to ECT during that time with Luke 12:47-48, Luke 13:3, and Matthew 10:28, etc.
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Man cannot impose eternal anything so a parable from life cannot be used to refute ECT, Lk 12:47-48
The "perish/apolummi" in Lk 13:3 refers to men who were killed when a tower fell on the. It says nothing about man's eternal fate.
This proof text says God is "able to destroy." God is certainly able to destroy anything He created but this vs. does not say that God has or will destroy even one soul in hell. Mat 10:28.
 
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Firstly, you weren't there so you don't know what Jesus did. The Scriptures state clearly that He spoke to the Phairsees in parables so that they wouldn't understand. You might wan to think about this some more. If the Rich man was dead and his ghost was living on, how did he have body. Scripture says the body reutrns to dust. How did the rich man have lips, eyes, tongue etc? It's obviously a story because if it was real then it contradicts Scripture.

First, I can speak using a real world example to illustrate a spiritual truth with nobody still understanding. I do it all the time with Eternal Security Proponents and ECT proponents (even when they have the explanation given to them; It is like I am speaking in a foreign language to them). The story does not have to be about Mars in order for them not to get it. In fact, no stories that Jesus told were fictional because if they were then that means Jesus gave us words that were not true. Jesus spoke everything the Father told Him to say. Jesus said to the Father that His words were truth. Is a fictional story filled with words of truth or untruth? Think about it.

Second, Paul says there is a spiritual body and a natural body.
I mean, have you ever heard of angels?
Do not angels appear as men?


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aiki

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Totally and completely disagree. John 3:16 says "not perish BUT have eternal life", It is definitely in opposition to perish----

Yes, that's right. Eternal life and perish are set in contrast to each other. But "perish" ("apollumi" in Greek in this case) in the Bible does not necessarily mean "annihilation." The eminent Bible scholar W.E. Vine defines "apollumi" in relation to the punishment of hell as "ruination" or "the total loss of well-being."

God did not lie or in any way deceive Adam and Eve, any sin is punishable with death.

But the physical death of the body is not synonymous with annihilation. And Scripture is clear that a person's conscious soul survives the death of the body. So, whatever may happen to one's corpse, one is not annihilated. Adam and Eve did die. That is, their bodies expired. But it hardly seems reasonable to think that they perished in the sense of John 3:16, which is a reference to the "second death" in hell. Why would God continue to interact with them and their children very directly and instruct them on proper sacrifices if He intended ultimately to annihilate them as punishment for their sin?

It is only through the blood of Jesus that we are saved, in Adam and Eve's case, it was the sacrificial system.

Yes.

Immortality is ours as a gift from God, not by right of birth.

I don't see that in either the OT or the NT.

But if it is your preference to believe in a God that institutes infinite punishment for finite sin, it's your choice.

Is that what I think? I had no idea. I thought I believed that what makes the atonement for sin an eternal thing for those who are in hell is their inability as imperfect beings ever to make a perfect atonement for sin. Only Jesus can do that. Anyone else who tries will spend all of eternity attempting to do so.

There is also the matter of who we ultimately sin against. Our sin is never finite when it is ultimately committed against an infinite, omnipotent God.

These facts have nothing to do with my imagination.

Selah.
 
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Is that what I think? I had no idea. I thought I believed that what makes the atonement for sin an eternal thing for those who are in hell is their inability as imperfect beings ever to make a perfect atonement for sin. Only Jesus can do that. Anyone else who tries will spend all of eternity attempting to do so.

There is not one verse anywhere in the bible that states the lost spend eternity attmpti9ng to make atonement for their sins----not one.

The 2nd death means the end of life to the lost. They are resurrected to face their punishment----hell, and they are punished according to their works. Sine may have to suffer linger then others, for their sins were greater. The 2nd death is they are burned up, end of life, they are extinguished and forgotten.

I don't see that in either the OT or the NT.


Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Eph_2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

1Co_15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co_15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
2Ti_1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
 
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I believe the Bible teaches "Dualistic Conditional Immortality."
I do not believe that holy scripture teaches "conditional immortality" because that term really means "soul sleep" until the resurrection and "annihilation" after the final judgement.
 
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I do not believe that holy scripture teaches "conditional immortality" because that term really means "soul sleep" until the resurrection and "annihilation" after the final judgement.

That is exactly what the bible teaches, and what lines up with the very character of God.
 
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mmksparbud

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Please explain what you mean. What exactly is what the bible teaches?

Just what you said you did not believe in---
I do not believe that holy scripture teaches "conditional immortality" because that term really means "soul sleep" until the resurrection and "annihilation" after the final judgement.
 
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There is not one verse anywhere in the bible that states the lost spend eternity attmpti9ng to make atonement for their sins----not one.

But this doesn't mean it can't be easily and directly deduced from the explicit things the Bible does say. How would a sin-cursed, imperfect creature on his own atone for his sins to the perfect degree God demands? How would he, by himself, manufacture a perfect atonement? It seems very obvious to me that he couldn't ever do so. And this is why Christ made the Atonement on our behalf. Those, then, who spurn God's gift of salvation found in Christ must atone for their sins on their own which, for an imperfect creature, is an unachievable goal. This is all quite biblical and uncontroversial.

I would point out, too, the Bible says not one word about killing cats for fun. Is it unbiblical to declare such a thing immoral? There is not a verse in the Bible anywhere that says "Don't cheat on an exam." Oh, there are verses about the importance of honesty, about not lying and such, but no specific and explicit verse that says, "Don't cheat on an exam." You wouldn't declare, then, that cheating on an exam is okay, would you? No, you could deduce from the verses that there are in Scripture about deceit that cheating on an exam - or killing a cat for fun - are morally wrong.

The 2nd death means the end of life to the lost. They are resurrected to face their punishment----hell, and they are punished according to their works. Sine may have to suffer linger then others, for their sins were greater. The 2nd death is they are burned up, end of life, they are extinguished and forgotten.

Well, this requires restricting the meaning of words like "perish" or "die," "destroy" or "destruction" in the Bible to "annihilation" which the Bible itself does not do.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Death of the physical body, yes.

Eph_2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Salvation is a gift, yes. Immortality, though, is an innate human characteristic. It's part of being created in the "imago dei."

1Co_15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Speaking here of the physical body, not our eternal soul.

2Ti_1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

"Immortality" in this verse is "aphtharsia" in the Greek and carries "incorruptibility" as its primary meaning. By extension, "immortality" is implied, but the verse could/should read:

"...has brought life and incorruptibility to light through the Gospel." When rendered this way, the verse seems to be referring to the end of the corruption of the physical body which will be resurrected and glorified (Ro. 8: 22, 23 1Thess. 4:13-18); at Christ's Second Coming.

Selah.
 
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I don't do links unless they are to accredited authorities such as lexicons, grammars etc.

Well, actually it would be a video. As for your statement about you looking only at accredited information: Are you saying that just because information is accredited they cannot be wrong? What makes you think that? In fact, you yourself have said that even accredited sources like Lexicons can contain errors within it. Information in and of itself is not your enemy. You can watch the video or not. It doesn't make a difference to me. One thing for sure is that if a person who is not biased towards a particular viewpoint will at least consider the other position in all it's information that it provides. If it turns out to be not true, then at least you know. But to not even look at the evidence is to shoot something down that you do value so dear (Which is History).

Der Alter said:
If God intends for fires to burn without destroying He can and has done so the burning bush and the three Hebrew slaves in the furnace in Daniel.

But this is an example of the opposite of Eternal Torment. The bush was not also perishing to our knowledge and the Daniel's three friends were not being tortured in the flames but they were unharmed by them. This shows that God's sacred things and or God's people will not be harmed by anything. To take it to mean more than is to invent something that is not there.

Der Alter said:
I do not do links and I don't respond to long copy/pastes from random websites.

You were the one who told me to post a few paragraphs instead of providing a link. Now, you are not interested? Also, they are not long copy and pastes, either. They are just two paragraphs or so. That is not long at all. In addition, again, information is not your enemy. It should not matter what source the information comes from. It is like you are putting up a barrier of protection around yourself so you can keep your belief intact. But do whatever you like. Just know that a good detective looks at all the evidence to determine the truth and he is not biased towards certain facts or information presented to him.

Der Alter said:
Why would Jesus talk about hades where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die? Why would a person who will soon be dead care about how long a fire burns and a worm lives.

Wrong perspective. Their worm does not die and their fire is not quenched for as long as the time of the duration of their punishment is going to last in the Lake of Fire. Meaning, the temporary punishment they will receive will be horrible before they are eventually destroyed.

Der Alter said:
And as I said Jesus' on this teaching matched what many Jews believed, that the unrighteous were punished forever in fire and worms. Why would Jesus support something false without correcting it?

Jesus spoke in a way that not even his own disciples understood.
Remember when the Jews thought Jesus was committing blasphemy of his claim to be God?
Jesus pointed them to a reference in the OT in saying that "Ye are gods." (Psalms 82:6).
This was misdirection so that Jesus could have accomplished His mission in going to the cross.
In other words, Jesus did not correct the Jews in His claim to be God by showing He had the power of God. There are many other things that Jesus said that He did not correct people on. But again, we do see in Scripture that Jesus did use words for people who have eyes to see and ears to hear. Remember, Jesus spoke in parables for seeing they see and hearing they hear, but yet they do not understand.

Again, Luke 12:47-48, Luke 13:3, and Matthew 10:28 are verses by Jesus Himself that teach that ultimate punishment is fair punishment, with one perishing if they do not repent, and one's body and soul being destroyed in the Lake of Fire (just as man can destroy or kill the physical body).

Der Alter said:
This passage is about the king of Babylon not the devil!‭‭

This passage is about the king of Tyrus not the devil.

The devil possessed both of these kings; Hence, why the devil can be also be named as these particular kings. For the language goes beyond these kings and talks about how this being was in the Garden of Eden, and how they are a cherub (angel), etc. I noticed some Modern Translations have seeked to change the text to fit your particular view here and they are wrong.

Der Alter said:
Does the word "everlasting" mean everlasting when it is used for God and His kingdom? When words are used hyperbolically that does not negate their correct meaning.

This proof text says "everlasting apolommi from the presence of the Lord." Something that no longer exists cannot be "from the presence" of anything.

The word "apolummi" occurs 90 times in the NT, of this 68 times, 76%, it cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which some argue supposedly occurs at the final judgment. Some of those usages are spilled wine, broken wine skins, tarnished gold, spoiled food, lost sheep and prodigal son. The lost sheep that was found and the prodigal son who returned home were apolummi but they were no annihilated.

Not going to accept your Greek translation because you did not grow up speaking and writing Biblical Greek in Bible times. In addition, there is no way for me to verify if you are correct, either. So I am not going to take your word for it. Especially when you appear to be biased to your own viewpont because you have refused to look at sources and paragraphs I have posted here that I do believe are significant in the fact that they demolish your belief on ECT.

Der Alter said:
I don't do random websites.

Which is a sure fire way to see what you want to see (without having your belief go unchallenged in any way).

Der Alter said:
Unless God decrees otherwise as He did in Exodus 3:2 and Daniel 3:26. Funny how some folks forget that God is omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscience when scripture does not fit their assumptions/presuppositions.

Talking about assumptions, show me a verse in the Bible where wicked men are said to burn in living flames for all eternity (with them being still alive)?

Again, Exodus 3:2 and Daniel 3:26 is an example of the Lord, the holy bush tree, and God's people not being hurt by fire and it is not example of the wicked burning in flames as a form of never ending torture. You have to make a huge leap of assumption that this flame would:

(a) Apply to the wicked (when it actually applies to the righteous).
(b) Last for all eternity here (when nothing is said that this bush or the fire that Daniel's friends would last for all eternity).
(c) Undo the reality of another flame that consumes the wicked (As Scripture teaches).

Der Alter said:
Where does scripture say "They will wail and gnash their teeth for a set amount of time before they are consumed." See above comment. God is not limited to the conditions of this world.

Where does Scripture say that the wicked men will be in flames for all eternity while they are yet alive?
If God wanted to make this point clear He could have provided many verses for us to make it unmistakeable. Words like corpses and perish, and destruction would not be used at all if ECT was true.

Der Alter said:
What God created He can destroy. Jesus did not say that God would destroy anyone body and soul. There is not one verse which speaks of God destroying anyone body and soul.

Isaiah 66 is the carcases (the remains) of the wicked. Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 talk about how the devil will be a carcase who is trodden under foot. 1 Corinthians 15:26 talks about how the last enemy to be destroyed is death. Whether "death" here is the angel of death or the power of death does not matter. What matters is that the word "last" and the word "death" are used together, which strongly tells us that this is a one time act taking place here and not a never ending "death." This also tells us that there are other enemies of God who will be destroyed, as well.

Der Alter said:
What you are talking about are man's ways.
Isaiah 55:8-9
(8) For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
(9) For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Sorry, Luke 12:47-48 is not about man's ways or thoughts. This passage clearly shows that God is into fair justice; Which obviously bursts the bubble of ECT. For ECT is not about fair punishment. Everyone is going to get a blanket ban punishment of spending all eternity alive in the Lake of Fire; And believers can take comfort in the thought that their unbelieving loved ones are going to be tortured their for all time.

Der Alter said:
Where does scripture say, "it will shake them to the core

The Israelites trembled in fear at going near God (Exodus 20:18-19).
Also, how can one not be afraid at God knowing they will be facing the Lake of Fire?

Der Alter said:
and when they are cast into the Lake of Fire, it will be very painful for the set amount of time that they will be punished there in porportion [sic] to the sins they committed here?"

It is the inevitable conclusion based on the evidence of comparing Scripture with Scripture.
One set of Scripture says that there are degrees of punishment and another set says that the wicked will be destroyed, or they will perish, be like wax before the flame, etc.

Der Alter said:
Scripture already posted in my previous post #139 which has not been addressed or refuted. That is exactly how many Jews would have understood "eternal punishment" Matthew 25:46

Again, the Jews did not have the spiritual insight to receive their own Savior when He came, so I would not exactly regard them as spiritual experts in regards to doctrine. Oh, and I believe I addressed all the verses you brought forth. If I missed one, just let me know. But again, there are no verses where Jesus said to the Pharisees that the wicked will burn alive for all eternity. Assumptions are merely made off what certain select verses say.

Der Alter said:
Man cannot impose eternal anything so a parable from life cannot be used to refute ECT,

Only Christ alone has immortality (1 Timothy 6:16). So ECT is not dealing with God who is eternal and His people (Whereby God lives in them to give them eternal life). ECT is not directly tied to God. ECT is a moral issue. All moral issues can be related in terms of a parable or real world example. For if ECT was good and moral, then surely such a belief could be illustrated by way of a parable of how it was moral and good to torture people alive for all time for a finite amount of crimes committed here. Usually if we see a dictator torture people in an inhumane way, we think it is barbaric. To say that such a dictator would torture a person for the rest of their adult life for crimes committed would be monstrous and not justice.

I trust that God's punishment will be fair and just.
You believe a particular text says a particular thing and you believe what the majority of Bible believing churches believe at the expense of morality or fair justice.

Der Alter said:
Lk 12:47-48
The "perish/apolummi" in Lk 13:3 refers to men who were killed when a tower fell on the. It says nothing about man's eternal fate.

This gives us a glimpse into the fair justice of God. Jesus (Who is God) is the same yesterday, today, and forever. God's character does not change from one day to the next. If God is into fair justice at one point in time, then He is always into fair justice.

Der Alter said:
This proof text says God is "able to destroy." God is certainly able to destroy anything He created but this vs. does not say that God has or will destroy even one soul in hell. Mat 10:28.

Then there is no reason to fear the One who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna if that is the case. Fear can only exist if there is truly a real reality of that thing happening. Seeing in your world view that the death of the body and soul cannot take place, there is then no real reason to fear. It would just be a useless scare tactic or idle threat. But God does not make idle threats.

In any event, may God's love and peace be upon you today.
And please be well.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.


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I do not believe that holy scripture teaches "conditional immortality" because that term really means "soul sleep" until the resurrection and "annihilation" after the final judgement.

Google "Dualistic Conditonal Immortality" to learn more about it.
It does not propose the idea of soul sleep.
Granted, I believe the wicked will go through periods of consciousness and sleep in hell, but I do not believe in a full head on soul sleep. That is not biblical. Scripture teaches both that the wicked are aware of things in hell and Scripture also teaches that the wicked are not aware of things after death. Both sets of Scripture are true. This makes sense because people today in the physical world both share in moments of being awake and in being asleep.


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Well, actually it would be a video. As for your statement about you looking only at accredited information: Are you saying that just because information is accredited they cannot be wrong?
A video is even worse. Please refrain from putting words in my mouth. Anything/anyone can be wrong, but I don't recall saying that accredited sources can't be wrong. However if I want credible information on any subject I will rely on sources written by credible authors, preferably peer reviewed, published by credible publishers not random websites.
What makes you think that? In fact, you yourself have said that even accredited sources like Lexicons can contain errors within it.
I did not say this either. I think I said that Strong's has been found to have about 15,000 errors or omissions.
Information in and of itself is not your enemy. You can watch the video or not. It doesn't make a difference to me. One thing for sure is that if a person who is not biased towards a particular viewpoint will at least consider the other position in all it's information that it provides. If it turns out to be not true, then at least you know. But to not even look at the evidence is to shoot something down that you do value so dear (Which is History).
I have done this for many decades. What I do not do is read random websites where someone of unknown qualifications gives his/her opinion with little or no credible, verifiable historical evidence.
But this is an example of the opposite of Eternal Torment. The bush was not also perishing to our knowledge and the Daniel's three friends were not being tortured in the flames but they were unharmed by them. This shows that God's sacred things and or God's people will not be harmed by anything. To take it to mean more than is to invent something that is not there.
Perhaps you should read my post again I was not talking about ET, per se. I was addressing the argument that "ET cannot not be true because fire destroys." The argument is invalid I gave two scriptural examples where fire did not destroy
You were the one who told me to post a few paragraphs instead of providing a link. Now, you are not interested? Also, they are not long copy and pastes, either. They are just two paragraphs or so. That is not long at all. In addition, again, information is not your enemy. It should not matter what source the information comes from. It is like you are putting up a barrier of protection around yourself so you can keep your belief intact. But do whatever you like. Just know that a good detective looks at all the evidence to determine the truth and he is not biased towards certain facts or information presented to him.
I read the 2 paragraphs as I said before a person of unknown qualifications giving his understanding what several verses mean.
Wrong perspective. Their worm does not die and their fire is not quenched for as long as the time of the duration of their punishment is going to last in the Lake of Fire. Meaning, the temporary punishment they will receive will be horrible before they are eventually destroyed.
I don't recall reading the words "for as long as the time of the duration of their punishment is going to last" in any of the vss. where Jesus speaks about the fate of the wicked. See my post this thread where I quote those vss. link:post #139
Jesus spoke in a way that not even his own disciples understood.
Remember when the Jews thought Jesus was committing blasphemy of his claim to be God?
Jesus pointed them to a reference in the OT in saying that "Ye are gods." (Psalms 82:6).
This was misdirection so that Jesus could have accomplished His mission in going to the cross.
In other words, Jesus did not correct the Jews in His claim to be God by showing He had the power of God. There are many other things that Jesus said that He did not correct people on. But again, we do see in Scripture that Jesus did use words for people who have eyes to see and ears to hear. Remember, Jesus spoke in parables for seeing they see and hearing they hear, but yet they do not understand.
Jesus was in fact correcting the Jews when He quoted Psa 82:. They accused Him of blasphemy.
Again, Luke 12:47-48, Luke 13:3, and Matthew 10:28 are verses by Jesus Himself that teach that ultimate punishment is fair punishment, with one perishing if they do not repent, and one's body and soul being destroyed in the Lake of Fire (just as man can destroy or kill the physical body).
I have already addressed the misinterpretation of these vss. Jesus did NOT say that "one's body and soul being destroyed in the Lake of Fire." Jesus only said God is able to destroy.
The devil possessed both of these kings; Hence, why the devil can be also be named as these particular kings. For the language goes beyond these kings and talks about how this being was in the Garden of Eden, and how they are a cherub (angel), etc. I noticed some Modern Translations have seeked to change the text to fit your particular view here and they are wrong.
In the listed passages the subjects are clearly identified as the kings of Babylon and Cyrus. The vss. you are referring to are figurative..
Not going to accept your Greek translation because you did not grow up speaking and writing Biblical Greek in Bible times. In addition, there is no way for me to verify if you are correct, either. So I am not going to take your word for it. Especially when you appear to be biased to your own viewpont because you have refused to look at sources and paragraphs I have posted here that I do believe are significant in the fact that they demolish your belief on ECT.
It was not my Greek translation, in a response to you, I quoted the full definition of apolummi, the Greek word translated destroy/destruction, from Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, one of, if not the, most highly accredited Greek lexicon available, in my post #81 this thread
Which is a sure fire way to see what you want to see (without having your belief go unchallenged in any way).
Is that why you have ignored the two posts I linked to in the post you quoted.
Talking about assumptions, show me a verse in the Bible where wicked men are said to burn in living flames for all eternity (with them being still alive)?
See my post 139 linked to above.
(a) Apply to the wicked (when it actually applies to the righteous).
(b) Last for all eternity here (when nothing is said that this bush or the fire that Daniel's friends would last for all eternity).
(c) Undo the reality of another flame that consumes the wicked (As Scripture teaches).
Already addressed. You should read my posts when responding to them.
Where does Scripture say that the wicked men will be in flames for all eternity while they are yet alive?
If God wanted to make this point clear He could have provided many verses for us to make it unmistakeable. Words like corpses and perish, and destruction would not be used at all if ECT was true.
See my post #139, linked to above.
Isaiah 66 is the carcases (the remains) of the wicked. Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 talk about how the devil will be a carcase who is trodden under foot. 1 Corinthians 15:26 talks about how the last enemy to be destroyed is death. Whether "death" here is the angel of death or the power of death does not matter. What matters is that the word "last" and the word "death" are used together, which strongly tells us that this is a one time act taking place here and not a never ending "death." This also tells us that there are other enemies of God who will be destroyed, as well.
Already addressed neither Isa 14 nor Ezek 28 are about the devil.
Sorry, Luke 12:47-48 is not about man's ways or thoughts. This passage clearly shows that God is into fair justice; Which obviously bursts the bubble of ECT. For ECT is not about fair punishment. Everyone is going to get a blanket ban punishment of spending all eternity alive in the Lake of Fire; And believers can take comfort in the thought that their unbelieving loved ones are going to be tortured their for all time.
I did not say Luke 12:47-48 is about man's ways or thoughts.
The Israelites trembled in fear at going near God (Exodus 20:18-19).
Also, how can one not be afraid at God knowing they will be facing the Lake of Fire?
And so?
It is the inevitable conclusion based on the evidence of comparing Scripture with Scripture.
One set of Scripture says that there are degrees of punishment and another set says that the wicked will be destroyed, or they will perish, be like wax before the flame, etc.
Parables taken from life examples. Funny how a supposed parable like the rich man and Lazarus does not mean punishment in fire where the person can't leave as it literally says but a known parable about a human lord punishing his servants with few and many stripes must be applied literally to God's judgment. Where does God beat with many stripes?
Again, the Jews did not have the spiritual insight to receive their own Savior when He came, so I would not exactly regard them as spiritual experts in regards to doctrine. Oh, and I believe I addressed all the verses you brought forth. If I missed one, just let me know. But again, there are no verses where Jesus said to the Pharisees that the wicked will burn alive for all eternity. Assumptions are merely made off what certain select verses say.
Whatever insights the 1st century Jews did/did not have is irrelevant. The Jews believed in a place of unending fiery punishment for the wicked. When Jesus taught "
Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:,” "these shall go away into eternal punishment,""the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die,""cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea,” “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity,”“woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born." that mirrored what many Jews believed. Jesus did not tell the Jews their belief in hell was wrong.
Only Christ alone has immortality (1 Timothy 6:16). So ECT is not dealing with God who is eternal and His people (Whereby God lives in them to give them eternal life). ECT is not directly tied to God. ECT is a moral issue. All moral issues can be related in terms of a parable or real world example. For if ECT was good and moral, then surely such a belief could be illustrated by way of a parable of how it was moral and good to torture people alive for all time for a finite amount of crimes committed here. Usually if we see a dictator torture people in an inhumane way, we think it is barbaric. To say that such a dictator would torture a person for the rest of their adult life for crimes committed would be monstrous and not justice.
There are three passages of scripture which speak of dead people in sheol and hades speaking moving, etc.Isaiah 14:9-11, Jeremiah 32:
I trust that God's punishment will be fair and just.
You believe a particular text says a particular thing and you believe what the majority of Bible believing churches believe at the expense of morality or fair justice.
I also trust that God's punishment will be fair and just.
This gives us a glimpse into the fair justice of God. Jesus (Who is God) is the same yesterday, today, and forever. God's character does not change from one day to the next. If God is into fair justice at one point in time, then He is always into fair justice.
I agree but we disagree with that that is.

Then there is no reason to fear the One who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna if that is the case. Fear can only exist if there is truly a real reality of that thing happening. Seeing in your world view that the death of the body and soul cannot take place, there is then no real reason to fear. It would just be a useless scare tactic or idle threat. But God does not make idle threats.
Neither God nor Jesus uses scare tactics.
In any event, may God's love and peace be upon you today.
And please be well.
Sincerely,
~ Jason....
Neither God nor Jesus uses scare tactics. Once again do not put words in my mouth I did not say or imply "the death of the body and soul cannot take place." Here is what Jesus said
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Now show me the verse where God has or will destroy one soul in hell?
 
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A video is even worse. Please refrain from putting words in my mouth. Anything/anyone can be wrong, but I don't recall saying that accredited sources can't be wrong. However if I want credible information on any subject I will rely on sources written by credible authors, preferably peer reviewed, published by credible publishers not random websites.

I did not say this either. I think I said that Strong's has been found to have about 15,000 errors or omissions.

I have done this for many decades. What I do not do is read random websites where someone of unknown qualifications gives his/her opinion with little or no credible, verifiable historical evidence.

Perhaps you should read my post again I was not talking about ET, per se. I was addressing the argument that "ET cannot not be true because fire destroys." The argument is invalid I gave two scriptural examples where fire did not destroy

I read the 2 paragraphs as I said before a person of unknown qualifications giving his understanding what several verses mean.

I don't recall reading the words "for as long as the time of the duration of their punishment is going to last" in any of the vss. where Jesus speaks about the fate of the wicked. See my post this thread where I quote those vss. link:post #139

Jesus was in fact correcting the Jews when He quoted Psa 82:. They accused Him of blasphemy.

I have already addressed the misinterpretation of these vss. Jesus did NOT say that "one's body and soul being destroyed in the Lake of Fire." Jesus only said God is able to destroy.

In the listed passages the subjects are clearly identified as the kings of Babylon and Cyrus. The vss. you are referring to are figurative..

It was not my Greek translation, in a response to you, I quoted the full definition of apolummi, the Greek word translated destroy/destruction, from Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, one of, if not the, most highly accredited Greek lexicon available, in my post #81 this thread

Is that why you have ignored the two posts I linked to in the post you quoted.

See my post 139 linked to above.

Already addressed. You should read my posts when responding to them.

See my post #139, linked to above.

Already addressed neither Isa 14 nor Ezek 28 are about the devil.

I did not say Luke 12:47-48 is about man's ways or thoughts.

And so?

Parables taken from life examples. Funny how a supposed parable like the rich man and Lazarus does not mean punishment in fire where the person can't leave as it literally says but a known parable about a human lord punishing his servants with few and many stripes must be applied literally to God's judgment. Where does God beat with many stripes?

Whatever insights the 1st century Jews did/did not have is irrelevant. The Jews believed in a place of unending fiery punishment for the wicked. When Jesus taught "
Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:,” "these shall go away into eternal punishment,""the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die,""cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea,” “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity,”“woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born." that mirrored what many Jews believed. Jesus did not tell the Jews their belief in hell was wrong.

There are three passages of scripture which speak of dead people in sheol and hades speaking moving, etc.Isaiah 14:9-11, Jeremiah 32:

I also trust that God's punishment will be fair and just.

I agree but we disagree with that that is.


Neither God nor Jesus uses scare tactics. Once again do not put words in my mouth I did not say or imply "the death of the body and soul cannot take place." Here is what Jesus said
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Now show me the verse where God has or will destroy one soul in hell?

Well, you appear to be primarily repeating yourself with Scripture here. This is no surprise because there are not that many verses that really support ECT. This is not the case with Conditional Immortality. Anyways, if you can sleep at night with your conscience clear with the idea of God torturing your unbelieving loved ones for all eternity, then by all means go and believe that way (if it makes you feel good).

I am moving on.
May God bless you.


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Well, you appear to be primarily repeating yourself with Scripture here. This is no surprise because there are not that many verses that really support ECT.
Actually when translated correctly there are very few verses which support UR or CI and neither is supported by historical evidence.
This is not the case with Conditional Immortality. Anyways, if you can sleep at night with your conscience clear with the idea of God torturing your unbelieving loved ones for all eternity, then by all means go and believe that way (if it makes you feel good).
I am moving on.
May God bless you.
Wrong! Typical insult. And you appear to be ignoring virtually everything I post. Whatever God chooses to do is moral and righteous. Whatever anyone's erroneous views on ECT I am not responsible for what happens to anyone including my unbelieving family, friends, acquaintances etc. God is going to decide their fate no matter how I, you or anyone else feels about it whether we like it or not and there is nothing that anyone can do about it.
 
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