I don't do links unless they are to accredited authorities such as lexicons, grammars etc.
Well, actually it would be a video. As for your statement about you looking only at accredited information: Are you saying that just because information is accredited they cannot be wrong? What makes you think that? In fact, you yourself have said that even accredited sources like Lexicons can contain errors within it. Information in and of itself is not your enemy. You can watch the video or not. It doesn't make a difference to me. One thing for sure is that if a person who is not biased towards a particular viewpoint will at least consider the other position in all it's information that it provides. If it turns out to be not true, then at least you know. But to not even look at the evidence is to shoot something down that you do value so dear (Which is History).
Der Alter said:
If God intends for fires to burn without destroying He can and has done so the burning bush and the three Hebrew slaves in the furnace in Daniel.
But this is an example of the opposite of Eternal Torment. The bush was not also perishing to our knowledge and the Daniel's three friends were not being tortured in the flames but they were unharmed by them. This shows that God's sacred things and or God's people will not be harmed by anything. To take it to mean more than is to invent something that is not there.
Der Alter said:
I do not do links and I don't respond to long copy/pastes from random websites.
You were the one who told me to post a few paragraphs instead of providing a link. Now, you are not interested? Also, they are not long copy and pastes, either. They are just two paragraphs or so. That is not long at all. In addition, again, information is not your enemy. It should not matter what source the information comes from. It is like you are putting up a barrier of protection around yourself so you can keep your belief intact. But do whatever you like. Just know that a good detective looks at all the evidence to determine the truth and he is not biased towards certain facts or information presented to him.
Der Alter said:
Why would Jesus talk about hades where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die? Why would a person who will soon be dead care about how long a fire burns and a worm lives.
Wrong perspective. Their worm does not die and their fire is not quenched for as long as the time of the duration of their punishment is going to last in the Lake of Fire. Meaning, the temporary punishment they will receive will be horrible before they are eventually destroyed.
Der Alter said:
And as I said Jesus' on this teaching matched what many Jews believed, that the unrighteous were punished forever in fire and worms. Why would Jesus support something false without correcting it?
Jesus spoke in a way that not even his own disciples understood.
Remember when the Jews thought Jesus was committing blasphemy of his claim to be God?
Jesus pointed them to a reference in the OT in saying that "Ye are gods." (Psalms 82:6).
This was misdirection so that Jesus could have accomplished His mission in going to the cross.
In other words, Jesus did not correct the Jews in His claim to be God by showing He had the power of God. There are many other things that Jesus said that He did not correct people on. But again, we do see in Scripture that Jesus did use words for people who have eyes to see and ears to hear. Remember, Jesus spoke in parables for seeing they see and hearing they hear, but yet they do not understand.
Again, Luke 12:47-48, Luke 13:3, and Matthew 10:28 are verses by Jesus Himself that teach that ultimate punishment is fair punishment, with one perishing if they do not repent, and one's body and soul being destroyed in the Lake of Fire (just as man can destroy or kill the physical body).
Der Alter said:
This passage is about the king of Babylon not the devil!
This passage is about the king of Tyrus not the devil.
The devil possessed both of these kings; Hence, why the devil can be also be named as these particular kings. For the language goes beyond these kings and talks about how this being was in the Garden of Eden, and how they are a cherub (angel), etc. I noticed some Modern Translations have seeked to change the text to fit your particular view here and they are wrong.
Der Alter said:
Does the word "everlasting" mean everlasting when it is used for God and His kingdom? When words are used hyperbolically that does not negate their correct meaning.
This proof text says "everlasting apolommi from the presence of the Lord." Something that no longer exists cannot be "from the presence" of anything.
The word "apolummi" occurs 90 times in the NT, of this 68 times, 76%, it cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which some argue supposedly occurs at the final judgment. Some of those usages are spilled wine, broken wine skins, tarnished gold, spoiled food, lost sheep and prodigal son. The lost sheep that was found and the prodigal son who returned home were apolummi but they were no annihilated.
Not going to accept your Greek translation because you did not grow up speaking and writing Biblical Greek in Bible times. In addition, there is no way for me to verify if you are correct, either. So I am not going to take your word for it. Especially when you appear to be biased to your own viewpont because you have refused to look at sources and paragraphs I have posted here that I do believe are significant in the fact that they demolish your belief on ECT.
Der Alter said:
I don't do random websites.
Which is a sure fire way to see what you want to see (without having your belief go unchallenged in any way).
Der Alter said:
Unless God decrees otherwise as He did in Exodus 3:2 and Daniel 3:26. Funny how some folks forget that God is omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscience when scripture does not fit their assumptions/presuppositions.
Talking about assumptions, show me a verse in the Bible where wicked men are said to burn in living flames for all eternity (with them being still alive)?
Again, Exodus 3:2 and Daniel 3:26 is an example of the Lord, the holy bush tree, and God's people not being hurt by fire and it is not example of the wicked burning in flames as a form of never ending torture. You have to make a huge leap of assumption that this flame would:
(a) Apply to the wicked (when it actually applies to the righteous).
(b) Last for all eternity here (when nothing is said that this bush or the fire that Daniel's friends would last for all eternity).
(c) Undo the reality of another flame that consumes the wicked (As Scripture teaches).
Der Alter said:
Where does scripture say "They will wail and gnash their teeth for a set amount of time before they are consumed." See above comment. God is not limited to the conditions of this world.
Where does Scripture say that the wicked men will be in flames for all eternity while they are yet alive?
If God wanted to make this point clear He could have provided many verses for us to make it unmistakeable. Words like corpses and perish, and destruction would not be used at all if ECT was true.
Der Alter said:
What God created He can destroy. Jesus did not say that God would destroy anyone body and soul. There is not one verse which speaks of God destroying anyone body and soul.
Isaiah 66 is the carcases (the remains) of the wicked. Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 talk about how the devil will be a carcase who is trodden under foot. 1 Corinthians 15:26 talks about how the last enemy to be destroyed is death. Whether "death" here is the angel of death or the power of death does not matter. What matters is that the word "last" and the word "death" are used together, which strongly tells us that this is a one time act taking place here and not a never ending "death." This also tells us that there are other enemies of God who will be destroyed, as well.
Der Alter said:
What you are talking about are man's ways.
Isaiah 55:8-9
(8) For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
(9) For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Sorry, Luke 12:47-48 is not about man's ways or thoughts. This passage clearly shows that God is into fair justice; Which obviously bursts the bubble of ECT. For ECT is not about fair punishment. Everyone is going to get a blanket ban punishment of spending all eternity alive in the Lake of Fire; And believers can take comfort in the thought that their unbelieving loved ones are going to be tortured their for all time.
Der Alter said:
Where does scripture say, "it will shake them to the core
The Israelites trembled in fear at going near God (Exodus 20:18-19).
Also, how can one not be afraid at God knowing they will be facing the Lake of Fire?
Der Alter said:
and when they are cast into the Lake of Fire, it will be very painful for the set amount of time that they will be punished there in porportion [sic] to the sins they committed here?"
It is the inevitable conclusion based on the evidence of comparing Scripture with Scripture.
One set of Scripture says that there are degrees of punishment and another set says that the wicked will be destroyed, or they will perish, be like wax before the flame, etc.
Der Alter said:
Scripture already posted in my previous post #139 which has not been addressed or refuted. That is exactly how many Jews would have understood "eternal punishment" Matthew 25:46
Again, the Jews did not have the spiritual insight to receive their own Savior when He came, so I would not exactly regard them as spiritual experts in regards to doctrine. Oh, and I believe I addressed all the verses you brought forth. If I missed one, just let me know. But again, there are no verses where Jesus said to the Pharisees that the wicked will burn alive for all eternity. Assumptions are merely made off what certain select verses say.
Der Alter said:
Man cannot impose eternal anything so a parable from life cannot be used to refute ECT,
Only Christ alone has immortality (1 Timothy 6:16). So ECT is not dealing with God who is eternal and His people (Whereby God lives in them to give them eternal life). ECT is not directly tied to God. ECT is a moral issue. All moral issues can be related in terms of a parable or real world example. For if ECT was good and moral, then surely such a belief could be illustrated by way of a parable of how it was moral and good to torture people alive for all time for a finite amount of crimes committed here. Usually if we see a dictator torture people in an inhumane way, we think it is barbaric. To say that such a dictator would torture a person for the rest of their adult life for crimes committed would be monstrous and not justice.
I trust that God's punishment will be fair and just.
You believe a particular text says a particular thing and you believe what the majority of Bible believing churches believe at the expense of morality or fair justice.
Der Alter said:
Lk 12:47-48
The "perish/apolummi" in Lk 13:3 refers to men who were killed when a tower fell on the. It says nothing about man's eternal fate.
This gives us a glimpse into the fair justice of God. Jesus (Who is God) is the same yesterday, today, and forever. God's character does not change from one day to the next. If God is into fair justice at one point in time, then He is always into fair justice.
Der Alter said:
This proof text says God is "able to destroy." God is certainly able to destroy anything He created but this vs. does not say that God has or will destroy even one soul in hell. Mat 10:28.
Then there is no reason to fear the One who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna if that is the case. Fear can only exist if there is truly a real reality of that thing happening. Seeing in your world view that the death of the body and soul cannot take place, there is then no real reason to fear. It would just be a useless scare tactic or idle threat. But God does not make idle threats.
In any event, may God's love and peace be upon you today.
And please be well.
Sincerely,
~ Jason.
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