The Dualistic Conditional Immortality View of Hell

[Der Alte]

Speaking of ignoring, I posted Vincent's comment in my post you responded to with your list, except not in the abbreviated version of Vincent that you did. And he supports my position.

Does this quote from Vincent support your argument?

--Vincent Word Studies G531 ἀπαράβατος aparabatos ap-ar-ab'-at-os
From G1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of G3845; not passing away, that is,untransferable (perpetual): - unchangeable.​

Nobody said it did. It could last thousands or trillions of years. That's still not endless & neither is the meaning of the word "permanent". If you'ld consult some dictionaries, it would be clear. And this has never been refuted:

Right about here is where you should be quoting a dictionary definition supporting your claim, instead of making empty claims.

"Hath an unchangeable priesthood - Margin, "or, "which passeth not from one to another." The margin expresses the sense of the passage. The idea is not strictly that it was "unchangable," but that "it did not pass over into other hands." The Levitical priesthood passed from one to another as successive generations came on the stage of action. This reasoning is not designed to prove that the priesthood of Christ will be literally "eternal" - for its necessity may cease when all the redeemed are in heaven - but that it is permanent, and does not pass from hand to hand,"Barnes Notes

I must have not got that memo which made Barnes the be all, end all authority on the NT. Once again I quoted 5 sources. Why do you think Barnes trumps them all?

 

[ClementofA]

Does this quote from Vincent support your argument?

--Vincent Word Studies G531 ἀπαράβατος aparabatos ap-ar-ab'-at-os
From G1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of G3845; not passing away, that is,untransferable (perpetual): - unchangeable.
​

Untransferable does not equate to endless.

"Rend. hath his priesthood unchangeable. The A.V. misses the possessive force of the article, his priesthood, and the emphasis is on unchangeable ἀπαράβατος, N.T.o. olxx. This may be explained either as inviolable, or which does not pass over to another. Comp. Exodus 32:8; Sir. 23:18. Usage is in favor of the former meaning, but the other falls in better with the course of thought." Vincent's Word Studies


​

Right about here is where you should be quoting a dictionary definition supporting your claim, instead of making empty claims.

Try Webster's dictionary if you don't understand the meaning of the word "permanent" not being equivalent to eternal. Many translations say "permanent". How many say 'eternal'?

I must have not got that memo which made Barnes the be all, end all authority on the NT. Once again I quoted 5 sources. Why do you think Barnes trumps them all?

Strawman & irrelevant. The Barnes comment is still unrefuted by you or any of your sources.

"Hath an unchangeable priesthood - Margin, "or, "which passeth not from one to another." The margin expresses the sense of the passage. The idea is not strictly that it was "unchangable," but that "it did not pass over into other hands." The Levitical priesthood passed from one to another as successive generations came on the stage of action. This reasoning is not designed to prove that the priesthood of Christ will be literally "eternal" - for its necessity may cease when all the redeemed are in heaven - but that it is permanent, and does not pass from hand to hand," Barnes' Notes on the Bible


https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[ClementofA]

True but irrelevant. This was in response to my argument about 1 Pet 1:23.
1 Peter 1:23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable,[̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God.
In this verse “aion” is paired with incorruptible.” The seed of God cannot be “incorruptible” and only for “a finite period” at the same time. Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternal.”
.....In response to your objection. While aion does not occur in 1 Pet 1:23, it does in vs. 25 where it refers to "the word of God" which is paired with "incorruptible seed," vs. 23.
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[αἰών/aion]" And this is the word that was preached to you.

Two different Greek words are rendered "word" in v.23 & v.25 of your version. In v.25 it means utterance related to the gospel. The gospel message Peter spoke of "repent" etc is not going to be proclaimed forever:

"Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Will Peter be preaching "repent" while in heaven? Is the "good news" (i.e. gospel) of "repent" etc going to be preached through all eternity? To who?

Nothing in v.25 proves the literal translation "to the age" is wrong:

1 Peter 1:25 Interlinear: and the saying of the Lord doth remain -- to the age; and this is the saying that was proclaimed good news to you.
1 Peter 1:25 Interlinear: and the saying of the Lord doth remain -- to the age; and this is the saying that was proclaimed good news to you.

OTOH, contrary to your opinion, aion is defined (as lexicons agree), as various durations, age, eon, epoch, etc. And Scripture proves it is used to refer to various period of time that are of finite duration:

"Consider the N. T. use of aion. Does “eternity” make any sense in the following passages? To make my point unmistakable, I have translated the Greek word aion with the English word “eternity.”

¨ What will be the sign…of the end of the eternity (Mt. 24:3)?

¨ I am with you…to the end of the eternity (Mt. 28:20).

¨ The sons of this eternity are more shrewd (Lu. 16:8).

¨ The sons of this eternity marry (Lu. 20:34).

¨ Worthy to attain that eternity (Lu. 20:35).

¨ Since the eternity began (Jn. 9:32; Ac. 3:21).

¨ Conformed to this eternity (Ro. 12:2).

¨ Mystery kept secret since the eternity began but now made manifest (Ro. 16:25-26).

¨ Where is the disputer of this eternity (1Co. 1:20)?

¨ Wisdom of this eternity, nor of the rulers of this eternity…ordained before the eternities…which none of the rulers of this eternity…(1Co. 2:6-8)

¨ Wise in this eternity (1Co. 3:18).

¨ Upon whom the ends of the eternities have come.
(1Co. 10:11)

¨ God of this eternity has blinded (2Co. 4:4).

¨ Deliver us from this present evil eternity (Ga. 1:4).

¨ Not only in this eternity but also in that which is to come (Ep. 1:21).

¨ Walked according to the eternity of this world (Ep. 2:2).

¨ In the eternities to come (Ep. 2:7).

¨ From the beginnings of the eternities (Ep. 3:9).

¨ Hidden from eternities…but now…revealed (Col. 1:26).

¨ Loved this present eternity (2Ti. 4:10).

¨ Receive him for eternity (Ph.1:15). Does this mean forever or only until Onesimus dies?

¨ Powers of the eternity to come (He. 6:5).

¨ At the end of the eternities (He. 9:26).

¨ We understand the eternities have been prepared by a saying of God (He. 11:3).

How can we say…

¨ “Before eternity” or “eternity began”? Eternity has no beginning (Jn. 9:32; Ac. 3:21; 1Co. 2:7; Ep. 3:9).

¨ “Present eternity,” “eternity to come,” and “end of eternity?” Eternity transcends time. Only God is eternal (Mt. 24:3; 28:20; 1Co. 10:11; 2Ti. 4:10; He. 6:5; 9:26).

¨ “This eternity,” “that eternity,” or “eternities”? There is only one eternity (Lu. 16:8; 20:34-35; Ro. 12:2; 1Co. 1:20; 2:6-8; 3:18; 10:11; 2Co. 4:4; Ga. 1:4; Ep. 1:21; 2:2, 7; 3:9; Col. 1:26; 2Ti. 4:10; He. 11:3).

¨ “Eternal secret” if the secret is revealed? (Ro. 16:25-26; Col. 1:26). It is no longer a “secret” at that point."

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

 

[Der Alte]

Untransferable does not equate to endless.
"Rend. hath his priesthood unchangeable. The A.V. misses the possessive force of the article, his priesthood, and the emphasis is on unchangeable ἀπαράβατος, N.T.o. olxx. This may be explained either as inviolable, or which does not pass over to another. Comp. Exodus 32:8; Sir. 23:18. Usage is in favor of the former meaning, but the other falls in better with the course of thought." Vincent's Word Studies​

​

Untransferable means it never transfers.<period end of sentence!> That is about as endless as you can get. Notice where Vincent speculates in this comment. This may be explained either as inviolable,[never to be broken, infringed, or dishonored.] or which does not pass over to another." "Never" does not mean at the end of some imaginary age!

Try Webster's dictionary if you don't understand the meaning of the word "permanent" not being equivalent to eternal. Many translations say "permanent". How many say 'eternal'?

I'm not the one who doesn't understand the meaning of "permanent." The first definition I found. "Lasting or intended to last or remain unchanged indefinitely. ... perpetual, everlasting, eternal, ... irreparable, irreversible, ..indissoluble, ...unending, endless, never-ending, imperishable, indestructible, ineradicable, "

Strawman & irrelevant. The Barnes comment is still unrefuted by you or any of your sources.

Wrong! You evidently do not know what a straw man argument is. And the five (5) sources I quoted contradict Barnes and Barnes does not, cannot, prove them wrong. Cherry picking sources to support assumptions/presuppositions while ignoring everything which proves you wrong.

Barnes Notes on the Bible * * *

Barnes is irrelevant blown out of the water by Liddell, Scott, Jones and BAGD Greek lexicons unless you can provide proof from Barnes that he is right and the two lexicons are wrong vs. his unsupported opinion.

--Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker Lexicon of NT Greek ἀπαρά-βᾰτος, ον (belonging to H.Gk. [ Phryn. p. 313 L. ]; not LXX ) in Hb 7:24 is usu. interpr. without a successor. But this mng. is found nowhere else. aj . rather has the sense permanent, unchangeable ( Stoic. II 266; 293; Plut. , Mor. 410 F ; 745 D ; Epict. 2, 15, 1, Ench. 51, 2; Herm. Wr. 494, 26 Sc. ; Philo , Aet. M. 112; Jos. , Ant. 18, 266, C. Ap. 2, 293; PRyl. 65, 18 [I BC ]; PLond. 1015, 12 a[trwta kai; ajsavleuta kai; ajparavbata ). M-M. *
A Greek-English Lexicon Gingrich & Danker​

Note, the interpretation "without a successor" is found nowhere else. Cf. Vincent and Barnes.

--Liddell, Scott, Jones lexicon of classical Greek G531 ἀπαρά-βᾰτος, ον,
1. unalterable, εἱρμὸς αἰτιῶν Stoic. 2.266; ἐπιπλοκή, of causation, Chrysipp.ib.293; τάξις Plu. 2.410f; ἡ τῆς κινήσεως ἰδέα Ocell. 1.15;infallible, προρρήσεις Iamb. VP 28.135, cf. Philum. Ven. 4.14; also of persons, Cat.Cod.Astr. 8(4).215. Adv. -τως Chrysippsipp. Stoic. 2.279.
2. inviolable, κύρια καὶ ἀ. PRyl. 65.18 (i B.C.), cf. PGrenf. 1.60.7 (vi A.D.).
3. permanent, perpetual, ἱερωσύνη Heb_7:24.
4. Act., not transgressing, J. AJ 18.8.2; ἀ. τῶν καθηκόντων Hierocl. in CA 10p.435M. Adv. -τως Arr. Epict. 2.15.1.
​

 

[ClementofA]

​

Untransferable means it never transfers.<period end of sentence!> That is about as endless as you can get. Notice where Vincent speculates in this comment. This may be explained either as inviolable,[never to be broken, infringed, or dishonored.] or which does not pass over to another." "Never" does not mean at the end of some imaginary age!

A drivers licence is untransferable, but not endless. Many other things likewise.

I'm not the one who doesn't understand the meaning of "permanent." The first definition I found. "L

asting or intended to last or remain unchanged indefinitely. ... perpetual, everlasting, eternal, ... irreparable, irreversible, ..indissoluble, ...unending, endless, never-ending, imperishable, indestructible, ineradicable, "

Lasting...indefinitely. IOW it can be finite.

Wrong! You evidently do not know what a straw man argument is. And the five (5) sources I quoted contradict Barnes and Barnes does not, cannot, prove them wrong. Cherry picking sources to support assumptions/presuppositions while ignoring everything which proves you wrong.

Barnes is irrelevant blown out of the water by Liddell, Scott, Jones and BAGD Greek lexicons unless you can provide proof from Barnes that he is right and the two lexicons are wrong vs. his unsupported opinion.

--Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker Lexicon of NT Greek ἀπαρά-βᾰτος, ον (belonging to H.Gk. [ Phryn. p. 313 L. ]; not LXX ) in Hb 7:24 is usu. interpr. without a successor. But this mng. is found nowhere else. aj . rather has the sense permanent, unchangeable ( Stoic. II 266; 293; Plut. , Mor. 410 F ; 745 D ; Epict. 2, 15, 1, Ench. 51, 2; Herm. Wr. 494, 26 Sc. ; Philo , Aet. M. 112; Jos. , Ant. 18, 266, C. Ap. 2, 293; PRyl. 65, 18 [I BC ]; PLond. 1015, 12 a[trwta kai; ajsavleuta kai; ajparavbata ). M-M. *
A Greek-English Lexicon Gingrich & Danker​

Note, the interpretation "without a successor" is found nowhere else. Cf. Vincent and Barnes.

--Liddell, Scott, Jones lexicon of classical Greek G531 ἀπαρά-βᾰτος, ον,
1. unalterable, εἱρμὸς αἰτιῶν Stoic. 2.266; ἐπιπλοκή, of causation, Chrysipp.ib.293; τάξις Plu. 2.410f; ἡ τῆς κινήσεως ἰδέα Ocell. 1.15;infallible, προρρήσεις Iamb. VP 28.135, cf. Philum. Ven. 4.14; also of persons, Cat.Cod.Astr. 8(4).215. Adv. -τως Chrysippsipp. Stoic. 2.279.
2. inviolable, κύρια καὶ ἀ. PRyl. 65.18 (i B.C.), cf. PGrenf. 1.60.7 (vi A.D.).
3. permanent, perpetual, ἱερωσύνη Heb_7:24.
4. Act., not transgressing, J. AJ 18.8.2; ἀ. τῶν καθηκόντων Hierocl. in CA 10p.435M. Adv. -τως Arr. Epict. 2.15.1.
​

Again "permanent" agrees with my position & Barnes, Vincent, etc..

Many versions say "permanent". How many say 'eternal'? Can you find one?

7 Myths About Universalism

 

[Der Alte]

Two different Greek words are rendered "word" in v.23 & v.25 of your version. In v.25 it means utterance related to the gospel. The gospel message Peter spoke of "repent" etc is not going to be proclaimed forever: . . .

ῥῆμα, ατος, τό, ( Pind. , Hdt. +; inscr. , pap. , LXX ; En. 14, 7; Philo ; Jos. , Bell. 6, 172, Ant. 16, 306 al. ; Test. 12 Patr. —On the mng. of the word s. ADebrunner, TW IV 74 f ).
1. that which is said, word, saying, expression ta; rJhvmata the words ( opp. ta; e[rga ) 2 Cl 13:3; Hs 9, 21, 2; cf. Ac 16:38 . pa`n rJh`ma every word B 11:8. pa`n rJh`ma ajrgovn Mt 12:36 . pa`n rJ. ponhrovn Hs 5, 3, 6; oujde; e}n rJ. not even one word Mt 27:14 ; cf. rJh`ma e{n Ac 28:25 .—Lk 2:17 , 50 ; 20:26 ; 1 Cl 27:7 (Ps 18:3 ). fwnh; rJhmavtwn the sound of words, a voice whose words Hb 12:19 ; aijscro;n rJ. Hv 1, 1, 7. wJsei; lh`ro" ta; rJ. Lk 24:11 . a[rrhta rJhvmata ( s. a[rrhto" ) 2 Cor 12:4 . rJ. e[kfrikta Hv 1, 3, 3b. rJ. ajlhqh` m 11:3; deina; rJ. MPol 8:3. rJ. blavsfhma Ac 6:11 . rJh`ma, rJhvmata ajkouvein B 16:10; Hv 1, 1, 6; 4, 1, 7; 4, 2, 6 al. ta; proeirhmevna rJ. ( s. proei`pon 1) 2 Pt 3:2 ; cf. Jd 17 ; Hm 9:4. polu;n ejn rJhvmasin genevsqai be profuse in speech, be too talkative 1 Cl 30:5 (Job 11:3
).— to; rJ., ta; rJ. oft. takes a special significance fr. the context: prophecy, prediction Mt 26:75 ; Mk 9:32 ; 14:72 ; Lk 1:38 ; 2:29 ; 9:45 a, b; 18:34 ; 22:61 v.l .; Ac 11:16 ; MPol 16:2. Word of scripture 2 Cl 15:4.— Command ( ment ) , order, direction Lk 5:5 ; esp. of God (Dt 1:26 ) 3:2 ; Hb 11:3 ; 1 Cl 10:1; rJ. th`" dunavmew" aujtou` Hb 1:3 . to; ijscuro;n rJ. the mighty creative word Hv 1, 3, 4; cf. 3, 3, 5. dia; rJhvmato" Cristou` Ro 10:17 .— Threat lalei`n rJhvmata katav tino" make threats against someth. Ac 6:13 .— ta; rJ. speech, sermon, proclamation pavnta ta; rJ. aujtou` everything he had to say Lk 7:1
. ejnwtivsasqe ta; rJhvmatav mou pay attention to what I am proclaiming Ac 2:14 .— 10:44 ; J 8:20 . ta; rJhvmata aujtw`n their preaching Ro 10:18 (Ps 18:5 ).—Of the words of (Christian) teaching or of divine understanding pw`" toi`" ejmoi`" rJhvmasin pisteuvsete ; J 5:47 . Cf. 6:6 3; 10:21 ; 12:47 f ; 14:10 ; 15:7 ; 17:8 ; Lk 24:8 ; Ac 10:22 . rJhvmata zwh`" au]wnivou J 6:68 . ta; rJhvmata th`" zwh`" tauvth" Ac 5:20 . rJhvmata ajlhqeiva" k. swfrosuvnh" 26:2 5. rJhvmata ejn oi|" swqhvsh/ 11:1 4. ta; rJ. tou` qeou` ( Sextus 4, 39 rJhvmata qeou` ; Marinus, Vi. Procli 32 qei`a rJ .) J 3:34 ; 8:47 . ejpi; panti; rJhvmati ejkporeuomevnw/ dia; stovmato" qeou` (Dt 8:3 ) Mt 4:4 . ta; rJhvmata tou` kurivou ta; legovmena dia; parabolw`n the Lord’s teachings which were expressed in the form of parables Hs 5, 4, 3. diavstalma rJhvmato" the special meaning of the teaching B 10:11. Gener. the sing. brings together all the divine teachings as a unified whole, w. some such mng. as gospel, or confession. ejgguv" sou to; rJh`mav ejstin Ro 10:8 a, 9 v.l. (Dt 30:14 ). MJSuggs, ‘The Word is Near You’ Ro 10:6-10 , JKnox- Festschr. ’67, 289-312. Cf. Eph 5:26 . to; rJh`ma to; eujaggelisqe;n eij" uJma`" 1 Pt 1:25 b. W. objective gen. to; rJh`ma th`" pivstew" Ro 10:8 b. W. subjective gen. rJh`ma qeou` Eph 6:17 ; Hb 6:5 . to; rJ. kurivou
1 Pt 1:25 a ( cf. Is 40:8 ).—GKittel, D. Wort Gottes im NT: Pastoralblätter für Predigt usw. 80, ’37/’38, 345-55.
2. after the Hebrew thing, object, matter, event oujk ajdunathvsei para; tou` qeou` pa`n rJh`ma nothing will be impossible with God Lk 1:37 (Gen 18:14 ). ejpi; stovmato" duvo martuvrwn staqh`/ pa`n rJh`ma Mt 18:16 ; 2 Cor 13:1 (both Dt l9:15). Cf. sing. Lk 2:15 ( cf. 1 Km 4:16 ); Ac 10:37 . Pl. Lk 1:65 ; 2:19 , 51 ; Ac 5:32 ; 13:42 .—ERepo, Der Begriff Rhema im Bibelgriechischen: I Rhema in der LXX , II Rhema im NT, Diss. Helsinki ’51, ’54; adversely reviewed by GZuntz, L’Antiquité Classique 22, ’53, 106-12. M-M. B. 1262.**
A Greek-English Lexicon Gingrich & Danker​

Endless repetition of the same verses without other evidence does not make them any more valid.

 

[ClementofA]

​

Endless repetition of the same verses without other evidence does not make them any more valid.

So you have no answer to my comments or those verses, eh?

forever and ever: a poor translation:

Chapter Five
Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?
Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment

 

[Der Alte]

So you have no answer to my comments or those verses, eh?
forever and ever: a poor translation:

I have answered them several times. You have done nothing to disprove or refute my arguments but copy/paste the same thing over and over and over ad infinitum.

 

[Der Alte]

A drivers licence is untransferable, but not endless. Many other things likewise.
Lasting...indefinitely. IOW it can be finite.
Again "permanent" agrees with my position & Barnes, Vincent, etc..
Many versions say "permanent". How many say 'eternal'? Can you find one?

Your posts are nonsensical. You quote bits and pieces of my posts, out-of-context and ignore everything that contradicts you. I blew your "rhema" argument out of the water and you ignored my response. But that's fine that is exactly what I expect from heterodox religious groups.

 

[ClementofA]

Your posts are nonsensical. You quote bits and pieces of my posts, out-of-context and ignore everything that contradicts you. I blew your "rhema" argument out of the water and you ignored my response. But that's fine that is exactly what I expect from heterodox religious groups.

What didn't you understand?

My rhema argument? You replied with no argument of your own, just a cut and paste, with no apparent point, while ignoring my main point.

The Church Fathers on Universalism

Universalism, the Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During its First Five Hundred Years

Indeed Very Many: Universalism in the Early Church

The Beautiful Heresy- Christian Universalism: The Early Church

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I believe most do not understand "Dualistic Conditional Immortality" as taught in Scripture because of church tradition, they do not understand that the word "forever" does not always mean "forever" in the Bible, and they do not always adhere to defending God's justice or goodness within Scripture.