The Case for Alcohol Based on Romans 14

[GodLovesCats]

It depends on the drug. Is your definition of "moderation" less often me taking pills twice a day?

 

[Anguspure]

It depends on the drug. Is your definition of "moderation" less often me taking pills twice a day?

Moderation is that intake that is beneficial and healthy. It probably differs for each individual, but generally I suppose that small amounts of something (legal) that do not have any immediate or ongoing ill effect for ourselves or others and that do not cause us alienation in our relationship with the Father (perhaps because of our faith or conscience), could be considered as moderate.
We should not forget that the deadliest substance and wildly abused by many is dihydrogen monoxide (DHMO): Facts About Dihydrogen Monoxide

 

[timewerx]

Playing at the edge of the cliff is perfectly okay as long as you can guarantee yourself that you won't fall over.

 

[BobRyan]

It depends on the drug. Is your definition of "moderation" less often me taking pills twice a day?

Drugs tend to be addictive -- medicine not so much. Drugs are not for healing... medicine is.

 

[Christ is Lord]

Drugs tend to be addictive -- medicine not so much. Drugs are not for healing... medicine is.

drug | drəɡ | noun a medicine or other substance which has a physiological effect when ingested or otherwise introduced into the body.

 

[GodLovesCats]

Drugs tend to be addictive -- medicine not so much. Drugs are not for healing... medicine is.

So you think opioids are not addictive drugs? They are medicines.

 

[aiki]

From the article: The Case for Alcohol Based on Romans 14

Thoughts? (Mainly for those that have reservations about alcohol)

Alcohol consumption in moderation I would not consider to be a sin, but I would certainly regard it as a "weight." In Hebrews 12:1, there is both sin and "weight" that encumbers the believer. The writer of Hebrews urges the Christian believer to lay aside both that they might better run the "race set before them." How does a "weight" differ from a sin? I think alcohol consumption is a great example of a "weight." It isn't flatly condemned in Scripture (though drunkenness is condemned repeatedly). An occasional glass of wine with a meal may not ever lead a person to drunkenness or alcoholism. Drinking alcohol, however, has many potential downsides:

- diminished inhibitions.
- drunkenness.
- addiction.
- treated by the body as a toxin (damaging to liver, brain, and kidneys).
- associations with sinful behaviour (sexual orgies, wild parties, violence, depression, suicide, etc.)
- causes spiritual stumbling in others.

Consuming alcohol, then, comes with significant risks. Drinking a bottle of beer isn't like drinking a glass of orange juice. No one ever, in an orange-juice-induced stupor, ran over someone with their car. No family has been destroyed by excessive consumption of orange juice. But alcohol has brought these things about many times. Why, then, drink it? It is not a boon to spiritual living but a potentially very serious bane to it. It is an unnecessary weight upon the believer who is running the race for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. And so, as far as I'm concerned, a believer who drinks alcohol, while not necessarily guilty of sin, shows a very significant lack of wisdom.

 

[Redwingfan9]

If a church serves wine for communion, obviously the whole congregation should be OK with it. Christians who are bothered by it need to read the Bible more because grape juice turned into wine in Biblical times.

The concept of grape juice didn't exist until the Welch's figured out how to remove yeast such that the juice didn't immediately ferment. That was in the 19th century. The anti-alcohol zealots twist themselves in knots trying to prove wine equals grape juice in scripture.

 

[GodLovesCats]

Hold it, you're saying in Biblical times grape juice had yeast and that was how it fermented? The bread at The Last Supper had no yeast for a reason, so that does not look right.

 

[Anthony2019]

I still do not understand what the Eucharist is because it seems to only be a Catholic tradition, based on a lot of posts on CF. Communion is the only word that means "The Lord's Supper sacrament" to Protestants such as Methodists, Presbyterians, Baptists, Pentecostals, and Reformists.

The Eucharist is celebrated in a number of churches, not just the Catholic church. For instance, I celebrate it in my church, and although I believe in the Real Presence, I don't believe in transubstantiation in the same way as the Catholics do. We also use wine, not grape juice.

 

[GodLovesCats]

I do not believe in the Real Presence. Jesus is in heaven. The Holy Spirit is there, just like he always is.

 

[Anthony2019]

I do not believe in the Real Presence. Jesus is in heaven. The Holy Spirit is there, just like he always is.

I'm very happy to explain why I believe this in another thread topic, along with history of the church and supporting scriptures

But back to the topic at hand..... I go along with most folks here that drinking alcohol is not sinful. It is there for our enjoyment, but we not to be led astray by it. Drunkenness can lead to a whole lot of trouble, not to mention alcohol poisoning, arguments, violence, broken friendships and relationships. It can also lead to addiction.

 

[Christ is Lord]

The Eucharist is celebrated in a number of churches, not just the Catholic church. For instance, I celebrate it in my church, and although I believe in the Real Presence, I don't believe in transubstantiation in the same way as the Catholics do. We also use wine, not grape juice.

Does your church offer grape juice for those that don’t want to consume alcohol (curious)?

 

[GodLovesCats]

That can't be done CIL. All cups have to be the same because they are not poured to order like at buffets.

 

[Anthony2019]

Does your church offer grape juice for those that don’t want to consume alcohol (curious)?

Generally speaking, Church Canon Law stipulates that eucharistic wine should be "the fermented juice of the grape, good and wholesome". I have not been to any services where non-alcoholic wine has been used.

 

[com7fy8]

Thoughts?

In the article, there is an interesting point > ones are saying "wine" always means grape juice, in the Bible, for example when Jesus turned water into "wine".

But there is where Paul deals with an issue of if we should drink "wine" if it can cause someone else to stumble. Well, if the "wine" were only grape juice, how could someone stumble about me drinking grape juice, which isn't even alcoholic?

Well > I can think of how it could be a problem > let's say a person becomes a Christian and dries out by means of Alcoholics Anonymous and is being told in AA that he should never take a drink because then he could tumble into a major drunken failure. Also, in Christian counseling and pastoring, dried-out alcoholics can be cautioned that they could go all the way drunk after taking just that "first drink".

But he sees a you a Christian drinking grape juice and thinks it is wine, and feels now he is a Christian, too, so he should be strong enough not to get drunk if he has a sip of wine. But he does not know you were drinking grape juice. May be, ones would argue, this could be an example Paul could mean of not drinking "wine", when he really means grape juice.

This, by the way, is the first time I even thought of this. I see the point . . . but . . .

I would pray about what I do with other people. Get to know how people really are, and be able to know when my example and actions could miscommunicate.

But I think any of us needs to become strong enough so what others do does not control us. And, with anything >

"I will not be brought under the power of any," our Apostle Paul says.

I see this means if any thing can get me under its power, this is a sin problem. And this can mean power to get me intoxicated, get me into immorality, or get me arguing, or complaining . . . or tying up my attention in any way so I am away from submitting to God in His peace.

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

There are things which can get a person's attention, then drag them into stress and burn-out of workaholism. But Jesus will give us "rest for your souls," He says in Matthew 11:28-30. So, we need to stay sober in our minds and emotions, so nothing can have power to get us into workaholic and other stress and trouble.

And God's love keeps us so we do not give in the the torment of fear > 1 John 4:18. I used to be drunk with worry and torment. Jesus has changed me so I can stay sober, emotionally, and not trust the pathological lying of worry.

So, even our attention needs to be under control, with discernment. And I would say we trust God to have us obeying how He guides our attention > seek to share with God in everything, all the time

And it then will be quite interesting to notice what will come to mind to demand our attention elsewhere. Being sober includes our attention being in God's control.

 

[Christ is Lord]

In the article, there is an interesting point > ones are saying "wine" always means grape juice, in the Bible, for example when Jesus turned water into "wine".

But there is where Paul deals with an issue of if we should drink "wine" if it can cause someone else to stumble. Well, if the "wine" were only grape juice, how could someone stumble about me drinking grape juice, which isn't even alcoholic?

Well > I can think of how it could be a problem > let's say a person becomes a Christian and dries out by means of Alcoholics Anonymous and is being told in AA that he should never take a drink because then he could tumble into a major drunken failure. Also, in Christian counseling and pastoring, dried-out alcoholics can be cautioned that they could go all the way drunk after taking just that "first drink".

But he sees a you a Christian drinking grape juice and thinks it is wine, and feels now he is a Christian, too, so he should be strong enough not to get drunk if he has a sip of wine. But he does not know you were drinking grape juice. May be, ones would argue, this could be an example Paul could mean of not drinking "wine", when he really means grape juice.

This, by the way, is the first time I even thought of this. I see the point . . . but . . .

I would pray about what I do with other people. Get to know how people really are, and be able to know when my example and actions could miscommunicate.

But I think any of us needs to become strong enough so what others do does not control us. And, with anything >

"I will not be brought under the power of any," our Apostle Paul says.

I see this means if any thing can get me under its power, this is a sin problem. And this can mean power to get me intoxicated, get me into immorality, or get me arguing, or complaining . . . or tying up my attention in any way so I am away from submitting to God in His peace.

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

There are things which can get a person's attention, then drag them into stress and burn-out of workaholism. But Jesus will give us "rest for your souls," He says in Matthew 11:28-30. So, we need to stay sober in our minds and emotions, so nothing can have power to get us into workaholic and other stress and trouble.

And God's love keeps us so we do not give in the the torment of fear > 1 John 4:18. I used to be drunk with worry and torment. Jesus has changed me so I can stay sober, emotionally, and not trust the pathological lying of worry.

So, even our attention needs to be under control, with discernment. And I would say we trust God to have us obeying how He guides our attention > seek to share with God in everything, all the time

And it then will be quite interesting to notice what will come to mind to demand our attention elsewhere. Being sober includes our attention being in God's control.

This is very insightful. I’ll add it to the footnotes of the article. Thanks again. You gave me something to think about.

 

[GodLovesCats]

You can't stumble on grape juice, so Paul must have been referring to the alcohol in wine. Also, the water was turned into wine. If the Bible calls a drink wine, it was not grape juice. Wine is not simply grape juice that has been fermented; that would make all wineries unnecessary.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

What I meant is if it's the Eucharist is so important to you and the church you're attending only uses alcoholic wine you probably should find a different fellowship. I know of churches that use grape juice instead of wine.

Using grape juice is a man made tradition. smile

Deuteronomy 14:25-26 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

25 sell that part of your crops and take the money with you to the special place the Lord has chosen. 26 Use the money to buy anything you want—cattle, sheep, wine or beer or any other food. Then you and your family should eat and enjoy yourselves there in that place with the Lord your God.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I see you live in Australia. In the USA a certain amount of alcohol in the blood (which varies by the state) is considered being "legally drunk." If someone is legally drunk, there are some major restrictions on the activities he/she is allowed to do.

"
Alcohol laws in Australia
Alcohol laws help to reduce the harmful effects of alcohol on individuals, families and communities. Some laws, such as the legal drinking age, are the same across Australia. Other laws, such as where you can drink, are different in each state and territory." Alcohol laws in Australia