The Case for Alcohol Based on Romans 14

[Christ is Lord]

Where does scripture say getting drunk is a sin?

Proverbs 20:1 comes to mind and Galatians 5:20-21.

 

[Christ is Lord]

I also found it rather interesting when Jesus spoke of wine needing new wine skins. I don't think you can use that to defend your position why you believe alcohol consumption is sinful. However, if you know anything about fermentation you know the reason why the wine would need new wineskins is because the process of fermentation has already began.

 

[GodLovesCats]

Where does scripture say getting drunk is a sin?

I don't know where, but Scripture says your body is a temple, so you must take care of it. Also, we are all told to submit to authorities, which means if drinking at least X amount of beer is illegal, you have sinned by doing so.

 

[bèlla]

Hi Bella,

Always nice to hear your thoughts . I agree with you that's not not sinful. I don't think the article was trying to impose a personal conviction on others:

CIL,

Thank you for the compliment.

That wasn’t in reference to the article. The portion you quoted is honest. There are adherents on both side of the issue. I think the lone consideration is why we’re drinking. If we’re imbibing to drown our sorrow or frustration that’s different from a relaxing cocktail or celebratory drink.

~Bella

 

[Christ is Lord]

CIL,

Critical Items List? I am terrible with certain abbreviations.

There are adherents on both side of the issue. I think the lone consideration is why we’re drinking. If we’re imbibing to drown our sorrow or frustration that’s different from a relaxing cocktail or celebratory drink.

People who tend to the drink to the point of drowning out their sorrow tend to drink to the point of getting drunk.

 

[GingerBeer]

What I meant is if it's the Eucharist is so important to you and the church you're attending only uses alcoholic wine you probably should find a different fellowship. I know of churches that use grape juice instead of wine.

I see. The churches in which I prefer to receive communion use wine and I like that because the gospels report that the last supper had bread and wine.

 

[Christ is Lord]

I see. The churches in which I prefer to receive communion use wine and I like that because the gospels report that the last supper had bread and wine.

Makes sense. However, I think people that view wine as sinful won't be attending churches that serve it at communion anyway. ;-)

 

[GodLovesCats]

I think that Orthodox Christians use wine, Catholics too, Lutherans and many Anglicans also so that would be at least two thirds of Christians who are regularly offered wine as part of their worship of God. And isn't the Eucharist important for every Christian?

I still do not understand what the Eucharist is because it seems to only be a Catholic tradition, based on a lot of posts on CF. Communion is the only word that means "The Lord's Supper sacrament" to Protestants such as Methodists, Presbyterians, Baptists, Pentecostals, and Reformists.

 

[GingerBeer]

Proverbs 20:1 comes to mind and Galatians 5:20-21.

The passage in Proverbs does not say that drunkenness is a sin. The passage from Galatians refers to the things that persons practise. Maybe I am wrong but practise suggests to me that a person frequently or regularly does the things mentioned with drunkenness being one of them. So yes, habitual drunkenness appears to exclude one from eternal life but that was not what I asked about. Getting drunk is not in itself a sin, it is not wise to do so and frequent drunkenness is a serious matter to be avoided. Getting drunk infrequently, once, or a few times in a life time might not be such a dire thing as the passage in Galatians indicates regarding habitual drunkenness.

 

[Christ is Lord]

The passage in Proverbs does not say that drunkenness is a sin. The passage from Galatians refers to the things that persons practise. Maybe I am wrong but practise suggests to me that a person frequently or regularly does the things mentioned with drunkenness being one of them. So yes, habitual drunkenness appears to exclude one from eternal life but that was not what I asked about. Getting drunk is not in itself a sin, it is not wise to do so and frequent drunkenness is a serious matter to be avoided. Getting drunk infrequently, once, or a few times in a life time might not be such a dire thing as the passage in Galatians indicates regarding habitual drunkenness.

Fair enough. As I wrote my initial reply I thought one could make that point. However, notice how the list of things we make a practice of would make us not inherit eternal life? If the fact that an action we do if we make a practice of it make us not able to inherit eternal life wouldn’t that make the action bad? Just food for thought.

 

[GingerBeer]

I still do not understand what the Eucharist is because it seems to only be a Catholic tradition, based on a lot of posts on CF. Communion is the only word that means "The Lord's Supper sacrament" to Protestants such as Methodists, Presbyterians, Baptists, Pentecostals, and Reformists.

"Eucharist" is a Greek word spelled out in Roman letters and it means "giving thanks". It is the word used in the last supper narratives in Matthew, Mark, and Luke when Jesus is said to have given thanks for the bread and then for the wine before offering each to the apostles. The Greek letters are εὐχαριστέω (eucharistéō). The word means "to be grateful, that is, to express gratitude; specifically to say grace at a meal: - give thanks"

 

[GingerBeer]

Fair enough. As I wrote my initial reply I thought one could make that point. However, notice how the list of things we make a practice of would make us not inherit eternal life? If the fact that an action we do if we make a practice of it make us not able to inherit eternal life wouldn’t that make the action bad? Just food for thought.

It would make habitual practise of the things listed seriously bad. But one could say that of using morphine yet that would not make the use of Morphine for pain suppression over a short period of time into a seriously bad thing. Many people have received morphine as a pain killer following surgery, while suffering from kidney stones or gall stones, in treatment for pain caused by serious injury, and at the end of one's life for treatment of pain in cases of cancer and other painful conditions. In past centuries alcohol was sometimes used for pain suppression by inducing deep drunkenness, such a treatment using alcohol is not common today but it was more common in the 19th century so it is analogous to the case with morphine that I mentioned.

 

[GingerBeer]

I don't know where, but Scripture says your body is a temple, so you must take care of it. Also, we are all told to submit to authorities, which means if drinking at least X amount of beer is illegal, you have sinned by doing so.

I do not know of any law in my land that says drinking X amount of alcohol is a crime.

 

[coffee4u]

The passage in Proverbs does not say that drunkenness is a sin. The passage from Galatians refers to the things that persons practise. Maybe I am wrong but practise suggests to me that a person frequently or regularly does the things mentioned with drunkenness being one of them. So yes, habitual drunkenness appears to exclude one from eternal life but that was not what I asked about. Getting drunk is not in itself a sin, it is not wise to do so and frequent drunkenness is a serious matter to be avoided. Getting drunk infrequently, once, or a few times in a life time might not be such a dire thing as the passage in Galatians indicates regarding habitual drunkenness.

there are plenty verses about not getting drunk. To be drunk is to lose control of your thoughts and to abuse your body, so verses about that would apply too.

Ephesians 5:18
And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit.

Proverbs 20:1
Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler, and whoever is led astray by it is not wise.

1 Corinthians 6:10
Nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 13:13
Let us walk properly as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and sensuality, not in quarrelling and jealousy.

Those are just a few.

Drunkenness is not the same as having a drink though.

 

[GodLovesCats]

I do not know of any law in my land that says drinking X amount of alcohol is a crime.

I see you live in Australia. In the USA a certain amount of alcohol in the blood (which varies by the state) is considered being "legally drunk." If someone is legally drunk, there are some major restrictions on the activities he/she is allowed to do.

 

[Anguspure]

I guess you could make that same case for cocaine in Rom 14 and every other drug known to mankind.

That article is a bit bogus in terms of its guesswork.

"Here the Apostle Paul gives pastoral guidance to the members in Rome on food. Apparently, some members that ate meat were looking down on those that didn’t consume meat and vice versa. Paul identities the group that consumed only vegetables as weak in faith. Paul isn’t using the term weak as a negative term but rather a descriptive one. The church in Rome included both Jewish and Gentile Christians. The weak faith probably refers to Jewish-Christians that only ate vegetables"

Interesting guess. but not what the Bible says about it.

1. Jews were required to eat meat at Passover and other services as part of their act of worship. They were not vegetarian.

2. In the letter to Corinth -

in 1 Cor 8 Paul points out that is the weak gentiles that having become Christian seek to avoid paganism to the point of fearing to eat meat offered to idols. Paul makes the case that Jews are used to the idea of no other gods but the One God and have no problem eating meat offered to "stones" that others think of as if they were actual "gods".

1 Cor 8
4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

7 However not all men have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

9 But take care that this liberty of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak

1 Cor 10
25 Eat anything that is sold in the meat market without asking questions for conscience’ sake; 26 for the earth is the Lord’s, and all it contains. 27 If one of the unbelievers invites you and you want to go, eat anything that is set before you without asking questions for conscience’ sake. 28 But if anyone says to you, “This is meat sacrificed to idols,” do not eat it, for the sake of the one who informed you, and for conscience’ sake; 29 I mean not your own conscience, but the other man’s;

The "weak" person is the gentile who is accustomed to serving idols "until now" until becoming Christian and now his/her conscience is "defiled" if they eat food offered to idols the way they used to do as pagans.

From what I can see (as one who has never tried it), apart from the legal and perhaps economic ramifications, cocaine in moderation is actually less harmful than alcohol.

All of these mind altering substances are taken as an aneasthetic against the pain in our hearts and/or as a social lubricant.

If we are living in community as we are supposed to in Him then we find that there is no need for the aneasthetic and that the drinking and drugs are actually detrimental to our Loving community.

 

[coffee4u]

I see you live in Australia. In the USA a certain amount of alcohol in the blood (which varies by the state) is considered being "legally drunk." If someone is legally drunk, there are some major restrictions on the activities he/she is allowed to do.

The 'booz bus' will stop and breathalyze you on the side of the road randomly. In my state drivers must have a BAC lower than 0.05
Not sure if there is another limit other than the driving one.
You can buy and drink alcohol here from the age of 18.

 

[GodLovesCats]

From what I can see (as one who has never tried it), apart from the legal and perhaps economic ramifications, cocaine in moderation is actually less harmful than alcohol.

Alcohol has some medical support. There is growing evidence drinking one glass of wine every day can be good for the heart, while nolbody has said the same about plain old grape juice. However, the keyword is wine. Nobody is saying we should drink a can of beer (which lacks the chemical resveratol) every night.

 

[coffee4u]

Beer has been said to be good for milk supply while nursing. Hate the stuff myself.

 

[Anguspure]

Alcohol has some medical support. There is growing evidence drinking one glass of wine every day can be good for the heart, while nolbody has said the same about plain old grape juice. However, the keyword is wine. Nobody is saying we should drink a can of beer (which lacks the chemical resveratol) every night.

All things in moderation.....including moderation.
Does Chewing Coca Leaves Influence Physiology at High Altitude?
Substance use - amphetamines: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia
LSD: Effects and hazards
BTW I am not implying that I am or have been a user of any of these things, my profession prohibits it.