The Book of Enoch

[HARK!]

That does not validate the book of Enoch that we have today. The earliest date I've seen is about 400 BC. The Jews rejected it from their OT.

What are the oldest copies that we have of any single book of the Canon of the Pharisees.

Do you limit what you accept as scripture, by what the [some] Pharisees consider to be scripture?

"But since Enoch in the same scripture has preached likewise concerning the Lord, nothing at all must be rejected by us; as we read that "every Scripture suitable for edification as divinely inspired." [110] By the Jews it may now seem to have been rejected for that (very) reason, ~ Tertullian
(The Apparel of Women"; Fathers if the Church 3,1,1-3)

Oh wait, Paul was a Pharisee.

(CLV) 1Co 6:3
Are you not aware that we shall be judging messengers, not to mention life's affairs?

How would I know that? Where is that found in the Torah and the Prophets?

Enoch 38:1

When the congregation of the righteous shall appear,
And sinners shall be judged for their sins,
And shall be driven from the face of the earth:

 

[SuperCow]

(PDF) Was Ham's Wife of the Nephilim?

I’m aware of these theories, but you must realize that it is conjecture, and even the author of this link says so in his article. There are several reasons why this theory is problematic.

First off, if Nephilim were hybrids (as opposed to different classes of humans as some have suggested), then why would God want to propagate that beyond the flood through any of Noah’s descendants. Why have the flood at all? It would seem like a mass extinction event like the one in King Hezekiah’s day or the tenth plague of the Exodus (though on a grander scale) would be more appropriate since it wouldn’t have destroyed the innocent animal life. (And in fact could provide them with food)

Second, if it was genetically passed down through Ham to the Canaanites, then eradicating the Canaanites (which wasn’t completely done anyway) wouldn’t have ended the problem. Esau married two Canaanite women. Simeon’s second wife (or concubine as the text isn’t clear) was a Canaanite. Judah’s son’s wife Tamar who eventually fathered Judah’s two surviving sons was a Canaanite. Rahab of Jericho married one of the ancestors of Jesus (or technically Joseph) according to Matthew.

The only supporting scriptures are the ten spies in the book of Numbers referring to the Canaanites as Nephilim, which is clearly intended as a hyperbole to scare the rest of the Israelites into abandoning the conquest. And the other circumstantial evidence is size of King Og of Bashan who had a huge bed, and Goliath, who was over 9 feet tall and defeated by David, though Goliath was actually a Philistine, and they descended from Mizraim, not Canaan.

So in all this I do not see the evidence of post-diluvian Nephilim in the Bible.
(P.S. - The first link didn’t work, so I couldn’t read it)

 

[timothyu]

Perhaps they are just covering the first creation was by rebellious angels and God's little Garden was the second. It is logical that for man to evolve the original creation be abolished, just like today our evolution to the Kingdom will require abolition of the world man has made in our own image.

 

[HARK!]

Zacharey Bauer presents a common criticism of the detractors of the validity of the Book of Enoch.

"Well you see the reason why we see this in the New Testament; is because this was a popular book of the day; and it's just like today; a Pastor might get up at the pulpit, and quote from a popular movie, in order to make a Biblical point."

I've actually heard this argument many times before.

"You can't claim that this was popular back in the day; and then make the additional argument this was only those crazy Essenes living down in the caves who really believed in this book anyway."

I heard this one too. You can't have it both ways.

He presents three verses.

Guess which one came from the Book of Enoch, which from the Masoretic Text, and which from the Brit Chadashah.

And there shall be forgiveness of sins,
And every mercy and peace and forbearance:
There shall be salvation unto them, a goodly light.


To give the knowledge of salvation to His people In the pardon of their sins,


Yet as for me, I trust in Your benignity; My heart shall exult in Your salvation.

Contrary to the blundering assertions of Scholars, the Qumran scrolls prove definitively that Enoch was written before Revelation.

From Enoch 39:

Those who sleep not bless Thee: they stand before Thy glory and bless, praise, and extol, saying: "Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of Spirits: He filleth the earth with spirits."' And here my eyes saw all those who sleep not: they stand before Him and bless and say: 'Blessed be Thou, and blessed be the name of the Lord for ever and ever.' And my face was changed; for I could no longer behold


(CLV) Re 4:8
And the four animals, each one of them having six wings apiece, around and inside are replete with eyes. And they have not rest day and night, saying, "Holy! holy! holy! Lord God Almighty, Who wast and Who art and Who art coming!"

Enoch 42:

And after that I saw all the secrets of the heavens, and how the kingdom is divided, and how the actions of men are weighed in the balance. And there I saw the mansions of the elect and the mansions of the holy,

John 14:2

In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

 

[HARK!]

The Jews rejected it from their OT.

Here's one that I found to be of great interest:

Enoch 48:4

He shall be a staff to the righteous whereon to stay themselves and not fall,
And he shall be the light of the Gentiles,

Is it no wonder that the Masoretes who rejected Yahshua didn't want their followers reading this book?

 

[visionary]

I’m aware of these theories, but you must realize that it is conjecture, and even the author of this link says so in his article. There are several reasons why this theory is problematic.

First off, if Nephilim were hybrids (as opposed to different classes of humans as some have suggested), then why would God want to propagate that beyond the flood through any of Noah’s descendants. Why have the flood at all? It would seem like a mass extinction event like the one in King Hezekiah’s day or the tenth plague of the Exodus (though on a grander scale) would be more appropriate since it wouldn’t have destroyed the innocent animal life. (And in fact could provide them with food)

Second, if it was genetically passed down through Ham to the Canaanites, then eradicating the Canaanites (which wasn’t completely done anyway) wouldn’t have ended the problem. Esau married two Canaanite women. Simeon’s second wife (or concubine as the text isn’t clear) was a Canaanite. Judah’s son’s wife Tamar who eventually fathered Judah’s two surviving sons was a Canaanite. Rahab of Jericho married one of the ancestors of Jesus (or technically Joseph) according to Matthew.

The only supporting scriptures are the ten spies in the book of Numbers referring to the Canaanites as Nephilim, which is clearly intended as a hyperbole to scare the rest of the Israelites into abandoning the conquest. And the other circumstantial evidence is size of King Og of Bashan who had a huge bed, and Goliath, who was over 9 feet tall and defeated by David, though Goliath was actually a Philistine, and they descended from Mizraim, not Canaan.

So in all this I do not see the evidence of post-diluvian Nephilim in the Bible.
(P.S. - The first link didn’t work, so I couldn’t read it)

It wasn't a link.. At least not an active one. Copy and paste will get you to the site.

 

[Aussie Pete]

What are the oldest copies that we have of any single book of the Canon of the Pharisees.

Do you limit what you accept as scripture, by what the [some] Pharisees consider to be scripture?

"But since Enoch in the same scripture has preached likewise concerning the Lord, nothing at all must be rejected by us; as we read that "every Scripture suitable for edification as divinely inspired." [110] By the Jews it may now seem to have been rejected for that (very) reason, ~ Tertullian
(The Apparel of Women"; Fathers if the Church 3,1,1-3)

Oh wait, Paul was a Pharisee.

(CLV) 1Co 6:3
Are you not aware that we shall be judging messengers, not to mention life's affairs?

How would I know that? Where is that found in the Torah and the Prophets?

Enoch 38:1

When the congregation of the righteous shall appear,
And sinners shall be judged for their sins,
And shall be driven from the face of the earth:

I see no value in the book of Enoch. I did not know it existed (if it is genuine) until a few years ago. I've survived without it. I believe that there is plenty that I can still learn from the Bible as we have it today.

 

[HARK!]

I see no value in the book of Enoch. I did not know it existed (if it is genuine) until a few years ago. I've survived without it. I believe that there is plenty that I can still learn from the Bible as we have it today.

Are you dismissing the words of Paul?

(CLV) 2Ti 3:16
All scripture is inspired by God, and is beneficial for teaching, for exposure, for correction, for discipline in righteousness,

 

[Aussie Pete]

Are you dismissing the words of Paul?

(CLV) 2Ti 3:16
All scripture is inspired by God, and is beneficial for teaching, for exposure, for correction, for discipline in righteousness,

No. I don't accept that what we have now as the book of Enoch is scripture. Not every quote in the NT is scripture, as Paul quoted a Greek saying when he was speaking to the Athenians. He also quoted a Cretan poet. There may have been a real book of Enoch. If there was, it is lost.

 

[HARK!]

No. I don't accept that what we have now as the book of Enoch is scripture. Not every quote in the NT is scripture, as Paul quoted a Greek saying when he was speaking to the Athenians. He also quoted a Cretan poet. There may have been a real book of Enoch. If there was, it is lost.

It was not lost. The Ethiopian Orthodox have had it in their Canon all along.

The Council of Laodicea banned Enoch at ~364 AD. James Bruce discovers 3 copies in Africa in 1773. He brings them back for study; and they are dismissed by scholars who said that because of how accurately predict the Messiah, that they were obviously written after the fact. Some said that they were written as late as 250 AD. Then fragments of copies were discovered at Qumran. Ooops! ...so much for putting our faith in scholars. Many scholars then doubled down by asserting that because the Similitudes were not found among those fragments; that they were added later. However a full copy of Enoch was found at Qumran in cave 11, which includes the Similitudes. It was purchased by a private investor; and has not been released to the public. It has been microfilmed and has been witnessed by John Strugnell, chief editor of the official Dead Sea Scrolls editorial team and Gerald Lankester Harding, director of Jordan's Department of Antiquities.

Ooops!

When Paul wrote that, the Brit Chadashah (NT) was not yet considered scripture.

(CLV) Mt 22:29
Now, answering, Jesus said to them, "You are deceived, not being acquainted with the scriptures, nor yet with the power of God.

(CLV) Mt 22:30
For in the resurrection neither are they marrying nor taking in marriage, but are as messengers of God in heaven.


Yahshua mentioned scripture.

What scripture?

Where in the Torah or the Prophets does it say anything about the angels and their matrimonial status?

Let's save some time searching, and go straight to Enoch.

Enoch 15: 5-7

And though ye were holy, spiritual, living the eternal life, you have defiled yourselves with the blood of women, and have begotten (children) with the blood of flesh, and, as the children of men, have lusted after flesh and blood as those also do who die 5 and perish. Therefore have I given them wives also that they might impregnate them, and beget
6
children by them, that thus nothing might be wanting to them on earth. But you were formerly
7
spiritual, living the eternal life, and immortal for all generations of the world. And therefore I have not appointed wives for you; for as for the spiritual ones of the heaven, in heaven is their dwelling.

If Yahshua calls Enoch scripture; that's good enough for me.

 

[Aussie Pete]

The original book, if existed, is lost. What is now known as the book of Enoch is not the original. That's why so few denominations accept Enoch as part of the canon. I do not rely solely on scholars. I have the inner witness of the Holy Spirit within. I have no desire to read it, not even out of curiosity.

 

[HARK!]

The original book, if existed, is lost. What is now known as the book of Enoch is not the original. That's why so few denominations accept Enoch as part of the canon. I do not rely solely on scholars. I have the inner witness of the Holy Spirit within. I have no desire to read it, not even out of curiosity.

I find it interesting that there are over 43,000 denominations within Christianity who can't agree on the truth; but they all share one thing in common. They all claim to be led by the Ruach Ha'Kodesh (Holy Spirit/Ghost). Enoch is the most quoted book in what the majority of them call their Canon. It is the most quoted book in the Brit Chadashah (NT). It was referenced and quoted by our Messiah and his Apostles; yet many who seek to follow them, deny the book that they quoted and referenced.

So honestly, if you reject the truth of the scripture that is being presented here; what brings you to the MJ forum? Messianics tend to go the extra mile when it comes to seeking the truth. I find, in my own experience, that this is most often why Messianics convert to MJ.

If you had any proof, other than what some spirit told you, that the book that Yahshua and his Apostles taught from is a fake; then I trust that you would have given us that truth already.

How did you test that spirit?

 

[SuperCow]

The traditional Protestant Bible canon has two major periods of time where there are serious gaps in the historical narrative.

1.) Enoch's life as a prophet. Whether you believe the book of Enoch is inspired or a bunch of hooey, this major patriarch is woefully lacking in depth and understanding as a major character. First off, nobody can really say they understand his death, or lack thereof. Nobody can say they understand why he was a prophet.

- Unless you go to extra-biblical sources like the book of Enoch, Sefer ha Yashar, or perhaps other Midrash or Apocryphal books I know nothing about. So either God doesn't care if we know almost nothing about Enoch, or he does care, but we reject it. It might not be important to living as a good Christian, but it is important to understanding the pre-flood world, if indeed God thinks it important that we know. Maybe we're all better off not knowing.

2.) The potential elimination of the Jewish religion at the time of the Maccabean revolt. The religious committees thought it important to outline the story of Esther, which was a threat with a much shorter time period. The Maccabean revolt was prophesied in Daniel 11, the 2 Maccabbees was quoted in at least one place in Hebrews, and if the Greeks and Hellenistic Jews had prevailed, the temple in Jerusalem by the time of Jesus would have more likely been a temple to Zeus or Jupiter, if Judah even existed at all by that time.

- The historical timeline from Adam to Jesus is unbroken in the Bible until the time of Ezra, then we have a 400 year gap until Jesus arrived, as if nothing important happened in that entire period. Again, either God thinks we shouldn't know about this period, or he does but we reject it.

There are several minor things missing as well, like the early family life of Abraham, the division of the earth, what happened to Nimrod, who the Pharaoh of the Exodus was, all answered in Sefer ha Yashar (Jasher), quoted in two places in the Old Testament.

If you don't care about anything else, but going to church, praising God, and treating your neighbors decently then by all means ignore everything that isn't taught on Sunday. (or Saturday in some cases) If you're heart is in the right place, then who am I to judge?

Some of us are interested in some of these weird Bible facts, if for no other reason than to defend our beliefs in our own mind when attacked by atheists, apostates, pagans, cultists, infidels, or whatever.

Yes, many of these books "may" be incorrect, corrupted, or frauds, but Christians in the past have debated the integrity of many of the books in the traditional canon as well.

 

[Laureate]

Some of the contradictions that invalidate it as being inspired are:

Enoch is the messianic Son of Man figure that is revealed throughout the book - Enoch 71:16-17


It says that angels built the ark in 1 Enoch 67:2. Noah built the ark according to the Torah & the NT.


It also calls the tree of the knowledge of good and evil “the tree of wisdom”

32:6

I also caught the inference that Enoch is The Son of Adam, and the Lamb of Rev. 5, but please share with us why you feel this counts as evidence that the book is not inspired? (pardon me if you already have already provided the answer to this question, I'm just reading the thread from the beginning, trying to catch up).

The Son of Man inference actually applies to Seth the Only begotten Son of Adam who has bodily Members continuing to live and multiply on Earth, thus when a passage is denoting an individual, it applies to him, yet where a passage pertains unto the Many Members of His Body, the term Son of Adam is traditionally applied to Mankind.

Thus if I were to Look at your Feet yet address You by name as I Speak, who would say, that I was not Speaking to You, and insist that I was Speaking to Your Feet?

My copy of Enoch not only reads differently, the enumeration of chapter and verses also vary from your copy
Enoch 31:5
[5]Then holy Raphael, an angel who was with me, answered and said, This is the tree of knowledge, of which thy ancient father and thy aged mother ate, who were before thee; and who, obtaining knowledge, their eyes being opened, and knowing themselves to be naked, were expelled from the garden

Enoch 66:2-3
[2]Now then shall the angels labour at the trees; but when they proceed to this, I will put my hand upon it, and preserve it
[3]The seed of life shall arise from it, and a change shall take place, that the dry land may not be left empty I will establish thy seed before me for ever and ever, and the seed of those who dwell with thee on the surface of the earth It shall be blessed and multiplied in the presence of the earth, in the name of the Lord

If my copy read as your copy, I would likely share the same impression.

I'll be looking for another copy soon, hopefully an interlineer, yet my first impression is that the Book is worth taking a Deeper look.

 

[visionary]

file:///C:/Users/user1/Downloads/religions-11-00487.pdf

The Religion of Idumea and Its Relationship to Early Judaism

 

[SuperCow]

The Religion of Idumea and Its Relationship to Early Judaism

As interesting as that document was, I fail to see how you can use it to claim any Nephilim links to Idumea/Edom.

 

[HARK!]

ENOCH 48:

2
And at that hour that Son of Man was named
In the presence of the Lord of Spirits,
And his name before the Head of Days.
3
Yea, before the sun and the signs were created,
Before the stars of the heaven were made,
His name was named before the Lord of Spirits.
4
He shall be a staff to the righteous whereon to stay themselves and not fall,
And he shall be the light of the Gentiles,

I just can't seem to find this spelled out so clearly in my Masoretic TaNaK.

 

[Acts29]

Zacharey Bauer presents a series on the Book of Enoch. This is part 1. I'll be providing a review of the entire series.

Matthew Maurey discovered ocean currents; but what prompted him to search was Psalms 8:8.

This fact is used by some to demonstrate inspiration of the Bible.

The Book of Enoch similarly presents an example of inspiration.

Enoch 3:1

Observe and see how (in the winter) all the trees seem as though they had withered and shed all their leaves, except fourteen trees, which do not lose their foliage but retain the old foliage from two to three years till the new comes.

Science today confirms this.

Evergreen families
Family name Example
Araucariaceae Kauri
Cupressaceae Sequoia
Pinaceae Pine
Podocarpaceae Real yellowwood
Taxaceae Yew
Cyatheaceae Australian tree fern
Aquifoliaceae Holly
Fagaceae Live oak
Oleaceae Shamel ash
Myrtaceae Eucalyptus
Arecaceae Coconut
Lauraceae Bay
Magnoliaceae Southern magnolia
Cycadaceae Queen sago

Evergreen - Wikipedia

Enoch is the most quoted, or eluded to, book in the Bible; but it's not in the Bible. Enoch is quoted, or eluded to in the B'rit Chadasha over 100 times.

Psalms is quoted 68 times in the Bible.

So what is the objection to this book. It is purported that it is because it speaks heavily of the Angels who sinned.

(CLV) Ju 1:6
Besides, messengers who keep not their own sovereignty, but leave their own habitation, He has kept in imperceptible bonds under gloom for the judging of the great day.

(CLV) 2Pt 2:4
For if God spares not sinning messengers, but thrusting them into the gloomy caverns of Tartarus, gives them up to be kept for chastening judging;

Who's offspring were giants.

(CLV) Am 2:9
Yet I exterminated the Amorite before you, Whose loftiness was like the loftiness of the cedars, And safeguarded was he as the oaks. I exterminated his fruit from above, And his roots from beneath.

This is the introduction to this series:

(Upfront, I watched the first video only. Haven't read the whole thread.)
Finally, someone had the courage to accept the obvious. Enoch is scripture. Jesus even stated that plainly. I will give a quick account of what has been given to me by revelation concerning the origin of evil spirits.

Enoch 7:1 It happened after the sons of men had multiplied in those days, that daughters were born to them, elegant and beautiful. 2 And when the angels, the sons of heaven, beheld them, they became enamored of them, saying to each other, 'Come, let us select for ourselves wives from the progeny of men, and let us beget children.' ... And they 3 became pregnant, and they bore great giants, whose height was three thousand ells: Who consumed 4 all the acquisitions of men. And when men could no longer sustain them, the giants turned against 5 them and devoured mankind.

The angels do not have the same nature as humans. (See the Cherubim and Seraphim) We have all seen the physical evidence of Enoch's account. They are called dinosaurs today.

Enoch 10:12 ... And when their sons have slain one another, and they have seen the destruction of their beloved ones, bind them fast for seventy generations in the valleys of the earth, till the day of their judgment and of their consummation, till the judgment that is 13 forever and ever is consummated. In those days they shall be led off to the lake of fire: and 14 to the torment and the prison in which they shall be confined forever. And whosoever shall be condemned and destroyed will from now on be bound together with them to the end of all 15 generations.

God passed judgment upon them and ordered the children of the angels into the abyss until the day of judgment. This "destruction of their beloved ones" was fulfilled in the flood of Noah's day. Woe to the earth when that abyss is opened!

The spirits of the angel-human hybrid are called demons today. Angels have eaten from the tree of life that they live forever. Man has not. This is the reason killing the sons of the angels left their spirits upon the earth.

Jubilees 10:5. [Noah speaking to God] And You know how Your Watchers, the fathers of these spirits, acted in my day: and as for these spirits which are living, imprison them and hold them fast in the place of condemnation, and let them not bring destruction on the sons of your servant, my God; for these are malignant, and created in order to destroy. 6. And let them not rule over the spirits of the living; for You alone can exercise dominion over them. And let them not have power over the sons of the righteous from henceforth and forevermore.' 7. And the Lord our God bade us to bind all. 8. And the chief of the spirits, Mastêmâ, [<Satan] came and said: 'Lord, Creator, let some of them remain before me, and let them listen to my voice, and do all that I shall say unto them; for if some of them are not left to me, I shall not be able to execute the power of my will on the sons of men; for these are for corruption and leading astray before my judgment, for great is the wickedness of the sons of men.' 9. And He said: Let the tenth part of them remain before him, and let nine parts descend into the place of condemnation.'

The current population of demons on the earth are only 10% of the total. The 90% are in the abyss awaiting release in the time of the end. Some of these creatures died in battle against one another. Most of these creatures were drowned in the flood. Hence their fear of water remains to this day.

Matthew 12:43 But the unclean spirit, when he is gone out of the man, passeth through waterless places, seeking rest, and findeth it not.

 

[GedaliahMaegil]

(Upfront, I watched the first video only. Haven't read the whole thread.)

Is there a question somewhere in there ... ?

 

[visionary]

(Upfront, I watched the first video only. Haven't read the whole thread.)
Finally, someone had the courage to accept the obvious. Enoch is scripture. Jesus even stated that plainly. I will give a quick account of what has been given to me by revelation concerning the origin of evil spirits.

Enoch 7:1 It happened after the sons of men had multiplied in those days, that daughters were born to them, elegant and beautiful. 2 And when the angels, the sons of heaven, beheld them, they became enamored of them, saying to each other, 'Come, let us select for ourselves wives from the progeny of men, and let us beget children.' ... And they 3 became pregnant, and they bore great giants, whose height was three thousand ells: Who consumed 4 all the acquisitions of men. And when men could no longer sustain them, the giants turned against 5 them and devoured mankind.

The angels do not have the same nature as humans. (See the Cherubim and Seraphim) We have all seen the physical evidence of Enoch's account. They are called dinosaurs today.

Enoch 10:12 ... And when their sons have slain one another, and they have seen the destruction of their beloved ones, bind them fast for seventy generations in the valleys of the earth, till the day of their judgment and of their consummation, till the judgment that is 13 forever and ever is consummated. In those days they shall be led off to the lake of fire: and 14 to the torment and the prison in which they shall be confined forever. And whosoever shall be condemned and destroyed will from now on be bound together with them to the end of all 15 generations.

God passed judgment upon them and ordered the children of the angels into the abyss until the day of judgment. This "destruction of their beloved ones" was fulfilled in the flood of Noah's day. Woe to the earth when that abyss is opened!

The spirits of the angel-human hybrid are called demons today. Angels have eaten from the tree of life that they live forever. Man has not. This is the reason killing the sons of the angels left their spirits upon the earth.

Jubilees 10:5. [Noah speaking to God] And You know how Your Watchers, the fathers of these spirits, acted in my day: and as for these spirits which are living, imprison them and hold them fast in the place of condemnation, and let them not bring destruction on the sons of your servant, my God; for these are malignant, and created in order to destroy. 6. And let them not rule over the spirits of the living; for You alone can exercise dominion over them. And let them not have power over the sons of the righteous from henceforth and forevermore.' 7. And the Lord our God bade us to bind all. 8. And the chief of the spirits, Mastêmâ, [<Satan] came and said: 'Lord, Creator, let some of them remain before me, and let them listen to my voice, and do all that I shall say unto them; for if some of them are not left to me, I shall not be able to execute the power of my will on the sons of men; for these are for corruption and leading astray before my judgment, for great is the wickedness of the sons of men.' 9. And He said: Let the tenth part of them remain before him, and let nine parts descend into the place of condemnation.'

The current population of demons on the earth are only 10% of the total. The 90% are in the abyss awaiting release in the time of the end. Some of these creatures died in battle against one another. Most of these creatures were drowned in the flood. Hence their fear of water remains to this day.

Matthew 12:43 But the unclean spirit, when he is gone out of the man, passeth through waterless places, seeking rest, and findeth it not.

Horrendous overwhelming thought, with only 10% we are plagued, overpowered, possessed, obsessed, and beguiled by demons.... And 90% are waiting in the wings to be let loose on the final stage of history. What wickedness and overwhelming evil is soon to over run the earth and all in it with overwhelming multi-directional attacks on all aspects from thoughts to actions. Our only hope is in Yeshua