The Book of Enoch

[Paul4JC]

If Jude is to be accepted as an inspired author, then the opinions of church fathers from two generations later who are not considered inspired should be irrelevant. Otherwise, your choices are that the Bible is not infallible doctrine, Jude is not an inspired author, or our current versions of the Bible were corrupted long ago.

Scripture doesn't depend on men for its infallibility. Men are fallible. The so-called church fathers were fallible. Even the apostles were fallible. Scripture is not. So who determines Scripture?

Jde 1:14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied

[2Pe 1:21 NIV] For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

 

[SuperCow]

Scripture doesn't depend on men for its infallibility. Men are fallible. The so-called church fathers were fallible. Even the apostles were fallible. Scripture is not. So who determines Scripture?

Jde 1:14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied

[2Pe 1:21 NIV] For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Therefore, as I implied, where the early church fathers contradict a Bible book, you have to assume that the Bible book is the authoritative source and not the church fathers. The question is whether the book of Jude is to be authoritative, and if it is then at the very least the section of the book that he quoted must have truth to it.

 

[daq]

Therefore, as I implied, where the early church fathers contradict a Bible book, you have to assume that the Bible book is the authoritative source and not the church fathers. The question is whether the book of Jude is to be authoritative, and if it is then at the very least the section of the book that he quoted must have truth to it.

Paul uses the same type of language in the following:

Galatians 2:1-5 KJV
1 Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.
2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.
3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:
4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

Problem is people do not truly believe Paul when he says the Torah is spiritual, (Romans 7:14), or when he admonishes the reader to walk according to and in the Spirit. If we wrestle not against flesh and blood, (Ephesians 6:12), and if the kingdom of Elohim is with you, (Luke 17:20-21), then the natural minded man is neither capable of understanding the Testimony of the Meshiah in the Gospel accounts, nor the epistles of Paul, nor the epistle of Yhudah, nor Sefer Henok.

The typical scholarly commentary on the passage quoted above bears this out: Paul is speaking of spiritual and prophetic things while the commentators commentate on natural, physical, outward things.

 

[daq]

Genesis 6:8 KJV
8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Deuteronomy 11:11-12 KJV
11 But the land, whither ye go to possess it, is a land of hills and valleys, and drinketh water of the rain of heaven:
12 A land which the LORD thy God careth for: the eyes of the LORD thy God are always upon it, from the beginning of the year even unto the end of the year.

Zechariah 3:8-9 KJV
8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.
9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

Zechariah 4:10 KJV
10 For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.

Revelation 4:5 KJV
5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Revelation 5:6 KJV
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Hebrews 1:7 KJV (Psalms 104:4)
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Seven horns, seven eyes, seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, seven Spirits of Elohim sent forth into all His Land.

For all of the above scripture statements it is fairly obvious that the following passage is the background source text.

Sefer Henok 4A:1-8 (a.k.a. Henok 20)
[01] And these are the Holy Elohim Watchers: [or "Malakim who watch"]
[02] Uriel, one of the Holy Malakim, over the Kosmos and Tartarus.
[03] Raphael, one of the Holy Malakim, over the spirits of the adam.
[04] Reuel, one of the Holy Malakim, judging the world of the luminaries.
[05] Mikael, one of the Holy Malakim, over the heart of the adam, Sar Tzaba.
[06] Sarukiel, one of the Holy Malakim, over the spirits who sin against the Spirit.
[07] Gabriel, one of the Holy Malakim, over the Paradise, the Dragons, and the Krubim.
[08] Remiel, one of the Holy Malakim, whom Elah set over those who rise.

They are holy Watchers who watch because they are the seven eyes of the Most High sent forth into all the eretz, (His land, His people).

Now therefore, when we return to the Torah, we see why the definite article is attached to the word Elohim in the following texts.

Genesis 5:24
24 And Henok walked with the Elohim: and he was not, for Elohim took him.

Genesis 6:9
9 These are the toldoth Noah: Noah was a tzaddik, and complete in his generations, Noah walked with the Elohim.

The Elohim here are the seven eyes: for Noah found grace in the (seven) eyes of the Most High, which seven eyes are the seven Spirits before the throne sent forth into all the earth, and who watch over all His land: from the beginning of the year even unto the end of the year.

 

[daq]

1) Uriel, (Light of El), I am the Light of the Kosmos, he that follows me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of the life.

2) Raphael, (Healing of El), I am the Bread of Life: he that comes to me shall never hunger, and he that believes on me shall never thirst, (Raphael is also the Angel of the waters, Revelation 16:5, John 5:4).

3) Reuel-Raguel (Friend of El), I am the door, if anyone enters in by me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and go out, and shall find pasture.

4) Mikael, (Who is like El), I am the Good Shepherd.

5) Sarukiel (Vine of El), I am the true Vine.

6) Gabriel, (Geber of El), I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one comes to the Father except by me.

7) Remiel, (whom Elah set over those who rise), I am the resurrection, and the life.

 

[Yahudim]

Oh Daq!

Days of Creation (summary)

1. Brought Order out of Chaos/Separated Light from Darkness
   1) Uriel, (Light of El), I am the Light of the Kosmos, he that follows me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of the life.
   
2. Separated the Waters Above from Below
   2) Raphael, (Healing of El), I am the Bread of Life: he that comes to me shall never hunger, and he that believes on me shall never thirst, (Raphael is also the Angel of the waters, Revelation 16:5, John 5:4).
   
3. Separated the Waters from the Land/Brought forth Seeds
   3) Reuel-Raguel (Friend of El), I am the door, if anyone enters in by me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and go out, and shall find pasture.
   
4. Set Lights in the Heavens/Sign, Seasons, Days, Years
   4) Mikael, (Who is like El), I am the Good Shepherd.
   
5. Great Sea Creatures/'Winged' (Beings/Birds),'Nephesh' (Souls/Fish)
   5) Sarukiel (Vine of El), I am the true Vine.
   
6. Creatures of the 'Land'/Man in 'Their' Image
   6) Gabriel, (Geber of El), I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one comes to the Father except by me.
   
7. Rest/Peace
   7) Remiel, (whom Elah set over those who rise), I am the resurrection, and the life.

1) Uriel, (Light of El), I am the Light of the Kosmos, he that follows me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of the life.

2) Raphael, (Healing of El), I am the Bread of Life: he that comes to me shall never hunger, and he that believes on me shall never thirst, (Raphael is also the Angel of the waters, Revelation 16:5, John 5:4).

3) Reuel-Raguel (Friend of El), I am the door, if anyone enters in by me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and go out, and shall find pasture.

4) Mikael, (Who is like El), I am the Good Shepherd.

5) Sarukiel (Vine of El), I am the true Vine.

6) Gabriel, (Geber of El), I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one comes to the Father except by me.

7) Remiel, (whom Elah set over those who rise), I am the resurrection, and the life.

 

[timothyu]

So who determines Scripture?

Fallible men seeking to control the narrative?

 

[Paul4JC]

Therefore, as I implied, where the early church fathers contradict a Bible book, you have to assume that the Bible book is the authoritative source and not the church fathers. The question is whether the book of Jude is to be authoritative, and if it is then at the very least the section of the book that he quoted must have truth to it.

I go by Biblical authority via the Holy Spirit, you can follow who you want. Try giving a Bible verse or two to back up what you're saying. Otherwise, it's gibberish to me. Scriptural implication is imperative, yours and mine are not.

 

[HARK!]

I go by Biblical authority via the Holy Spirit, you can follow who you want. Try giving a Bible verse or two to back up what you're saying. Otherwise, it's gibberish to me. Scriptural implication is imperative, yours and mine are not.

Jude spoke of the Ruach Ha'Kodesh. I suspect that the "Church Fathers" believed that they were lead by the Ruach Ha'Kodesh.

There are now over 45,000 denominations which can't agree on either, what is scripture, or the interpretation of that scripture. That doesn't include all of the differences of understanding within those denominations. What do all of these denominations share in common? They all claim to be lead by the "Holy Spirit."

I'm very careful about what I say has been revealed to me by the Ruach Ha'Kodesh.

I hear many who claim to be "lead by the spirit," who are preaching a lawless message that would fail the Deuteronomy 13 test.

Before I repeat a message of the Ruach Ha'Kodesh; I test that spirit.

(CLV) 1Jn 4:1
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see if they are of God, for many false prophets have come out into the world.

Even after it is tested, I try to remember Deuteronomy 13, to hold fast to my humility.

Shabbat shalom.

 

[Paul4JC]

Genesis 6:8 KJV
8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Deuteronomy 11:11-12 KJV
11 But the land, whither ye go to possess it, is a land of hills and valleys, and drinketh water of the rain of heaven:
12 A land which the LORD thy God careth for: the eyes of the LORD thy God are always upon it, from the beginning of the year even unto the end of the year.

Zechariah 3:8-9 KJV
8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.
9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

Zechariah 4:10 KJV
10 For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.

Revelation 4:5 KJV
5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Revelation 5:6 KJV
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Hebrews 1:7 KJV (Psalms 104:4)
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Seven horns, seven eyes, seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, seven Spirits of Elohim sent forth into all His Land.

For all of the above scripture statements it is fairly obvious that the following passage is the background source text.

Sefer Henok 4A:1-8 (a.k.a. Henok 20)
[01] And these are the Holy Elohim Watchers: [or "Malakim who watch"]
[02] Uriel, one of the Holy Malakim, over the Kosmos and Tartarus.
[03] Raphael, one of the Holy Malakim, over the spirits of the adam.
[04] Reuel, one of the Holy Malakim, judging the world of the luminaries.
[05] Mikael, one of the Holy Malakim, over the heart of the adam, Sar Tzaba.
[06] Sarukiel, one of the Holy Malakim, over the spirits who sin against the Spirit.
[07] Gabriel, one of the Holy Malakim, over the Paradise, the Dragons, and the Krubim.
[08] Remiel, one of the Holy Malakim, whom Elah set over those who rise.

They are holy Watchers who watch because they are the seven eyes of the Most High sent forth into all the eretz, (His land, His people).

Now therefore, when we return to the Torah, we see why the definite article is attached to the word Elohim in the following texts.

Genesis 5:24
24 And Henok walked with the Elohim: and he was not, for Elohim took him.

Genesis 6:9
9 These are the toldoth Noah: Noah was a tzaddik, and complete in his generations, Noah walked with the Elohim.

The Elohim here are the seven eyes: for Noah found grace in the (seven) eyes of the Most High, which seven eyes are the seven Spirits before the throne sent forth into all the earth, and who watch over all His land: from the beginning of the year even unto the end of the year.

Could they be the same angels of Revelation 1, being that they are so awesome and diverse in their responsibilities? Michael and Gabriel are examples of this diversity.

[Rev 1:20 NIV] The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

List of the Seven Archangels​

20:1 These are the names of the holy angels who watch.
2 Uriel, one of the holy angels, who is in charge of the world and Tartarus.
3 Raphael, one of the holy angels, who is in charge of the spirits of men.
4 Reuel, one of the holy angels, who takes vengeance on the world of the luminaries.
5 Michael, one of the holy angels, who has been put in charge of the good ones of the people.
6 Sariel, one of the holy angels, who is in charge of the spirits who sin against the spirit.
7 Gabriel, one of the holy angels, who is in charge of paradise and the serpents and the cherubim.
8 Remiel, one of the holy angels, whom God has put in charge of them that rise.

1 Enoch The Hermeneia Translation
Nickelsburg, George W.E.; VanderKam, James C.. 1 Enoch (pp. 40-41).

 

[daq]

Could they be the same angels of Revelation 1, being that they are so awesome and diverse in their responsibilities? Michael and Gabriel are examples of this diversity.

[Rev 1:20 NIV] The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

List of the Seven Archangels​

20:1 These are the names of the holy angels who watch.
2 Uriel, one of the holy angels, who is in charge of the world and Tartarus.
3 Raphael, one of the holy angels, who is in charge of the spirits of men.
4 Reuel, one of the holy angels, who takes vengeance on the world of the luminaries.
5 Michael, one of the holy angels, who has been put in charge of the good ones of the people.
6 Sariel, one of the holy angels, who is in charge of the spirits who sin against the spirit.
7 Gabriel, one of the holy angels, who is in charge of paradise and the serpents and the cherubim.
8 Remiel, one of the holy angels, whom God has put in charge of them that rise.

1 Enoch The Hermeneia Translation
Nickelsburg, George W.E.; VanderKam, James C.. 1 Enoch (pp. 40-41).

That is my understanding, although Mikael is the only one called an Archangel, (in the most commonly accepted canons of scripture).

 

[SuperCow]

I go by Biblical authority via the Holy Spirit, you can follow who you want. Try giving a Bible verse or two to back up what you're saying. Otherwise, it's gibberish to me. Scriptural implication is imperative, yours and mine are not.

Sorry, but I can't figure out what you're disagreeing with me about. I started out by saying that the scriptures trump whatever the early church fathers may have said (in the case mentioned, the book of Jude), and you keep arguing with me by saying the same thing.

 

[HARK!]

Shalom Brothers.

 

[Yahudim]

There is a question that keeps bothering me. Please keep in mind that I am not arguing anything. But assuming that the priesthood was wrong (and everything in the historical accounts points to it being the wrong priesthood, the wrong calendar, the wrong king and due to the Chashmonaim); so EVERYTHING was wrong concerning the Moedim, how could Messiah fulfill TaNaK? How could He fulfill Pesach?

Edited for clarity

 

[daq]

There is a question that keeps bothering me. Please keep in mind that I am not arguing anything. But assuming that the priesthood was wrong (and everything points to it being wrong), the calendar was wrong (ditto), that EVERYTHING was wrong concerning the Moedim, how could Messiah fulfill TaNaK? How could He fulfill Pesach?

Consider this: let's say that the true calendar expounded in the Torah and Prophets is the only way to understand how those things speak and foretell of the Meshiah, and what he will do, and what he will accomplish: but that also, as you suggest, the correct calendar was not being followed in the first century.

How do you suppose the authors of the apostolic writings are going to portray the fulfillments of things related to the true calendar when they are fulfilled by Meshiah in the narratives? Are they going to use the wrong calendar to show how Meshiah fulfills the true calendar? Of course not: they are going to ignore the wrong calendar because the Meshiah would not be fulfilling things according to an incorrect calendar.

However, if indeed the correct calendar is to be found in the Torah and Prophets, and it is, then the average person simply has not yet found the instructions and axioms and properly understood them. In this manner we are taught of Elohim and not of men, (those truly seeking the kingdom of Elohim and His righteousness by continual prayerful study in His Word).

 

[HARK!]

There is a question that keeps bothering me. Please keep in mind that I am not arguing anything. But assuming that the priesthood was wrong (and everything points to it being wrong), the calendar was wrong (ditto), that EVERYTHING was wrong concerning the Moedim, how could Messiah fulfill TaNaK? How could He fulfill Pesach?

I've been working with how he could have fulfilled his own prophecy of 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth. If two different calendars are being spoken of in the Gospels; but the distinction wasn't made clear; because those who were following Yahshua, knew to foll0ow the calendar that the Zadokites were following; that might explain the math.

It might also explain why they thought that Judas was going outside (what did Moses say about going outside on Pesach?) to make a purchase on Pesach? Why would a Torah observant group think such a thing?

 

[Paul4JC]

That is my understanding, although Mikael is the only one called an Archangel, (in the most commonly accepted canons of scripture).

Yes, it does seem to be implied in 1 Enoch though the ranking is not clearly given one to another. It is quite fascinating.

Strong's Concordance

743 archaggelos: a chief angel, i.e. archangel
Original Word: ἀρχάγγελος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: archaggelos
Phonetic Spelling: (ar-khang'-el-os)
Definition: a chief angel, archangel
Usage: a ruler of angels, a superior angel, an archangel.

8269 sar: chieftain, chief, ruler, official, captain, prince
Original Word: שַׂר
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: sar
Phonetic Spelling: (sar)
Definition: chieftain, chief, ruler, official, captain, prince

Brown-Driver-Briggs

שַׂר420 noun masculine chieftain, chief, ruler, official, captain, prince (Late Hebrew especially of angels; Assyrian šarru, king)

Thayer's Greek Lexicon

STRONGS NT 743: ἀρχάγγελος
ἀρχάγγελος, ἀρχαγγέλου, ὁ (from ἀρχι, which see, and ἄγγελος), a Biblical and ecclesiastical word, archangel, i. e. chief of the angels (Hebrew שַׂר chief, prince, Daniel 10:20; Daniel 12:1), or one of the princes and leaders of the angels (הָרִאשֹׁנִים הַשָּׂרִים, Daniel 10:13): 1 Thessalonians 4:16; Jude 1:9.

 

[Yahudim]

Consider this: let's say that the true calendar expounded in the Torah and Prophets is the only way to understand how those things speak and foretell of the Meshiah, and what he will do, and what he will accomplish: but that also, as you suggest, the correct calendar was not being followed in the first century.

How do you suppose the authors of the apostolic writings are going to portray the fulfillments of things related to the true calendar when they are fulfilled by Meshiah in the narratives? Are they going to use the wrong calendar to show how Meshiah fulfills the true calendar? Of course not: they are going to ignore the wrong calendar because the Meshiah would not be fulfilling things according to an incorrect calendar.

However, if indeed the correct calendar is to be found in the Torah and Prophets, and it is, then the average person simply has not yet found the instructions and axioms and properly understood them. In this manner we are taught of Elohim and not of men, (those truly seeking the kingdom of Elohim and His righteousness by continual prayerful study in His Word).

Consider this: let's say that the true calendar expounded in the Torah and Prophets is the only way to understand how those things speak and foretell of the Meshiah, and what he will do, and what he will accomplish: but that also, as you suggest, the correct calendar was not being followed in the first century.

How do you suppose the authors of the apostolic writings are going to portray the fulfillments of things related to the true calendar when they are fulfilled by Meshiah in the narratives? Are they going to use the wrong calendar to show how Meshiah fulfills the true calendar? Of course not: they are going to ignore the wrong calendar because the Meshiah would not be fulfilling things according to an incorrect calendar.

However, if indeed the correct calendar is to be found in the Torah and Prophets, and it is, then the average person simply has not yet found the instructions and axioms and properly understood them. In this manner we are taught of Elohim and not of men, (those truly seeking the kingdom of Elohim and His righteousness by continual prayerful study in His Word).

Brother, this is not something that happened in secret. The general populace was well aware of the circumstances. The people even responded to the Priesthood that called themselves 'the sons of Righteousness' (Zadokim) by making a pun out of their name that meant self-righteous.

In my mind, there had to be a confluence of the calendar dates. Perhaps that is why Messiah and His talmidim kept making reference to 'His time had not yet come'. They were waiting for a month when the Pesach fell on the same day in both calendars. I can understand Him using the elements of the Appointed Times for teaching purposes. But I am convinced that He would not have kept the wrong date for such a time as His highly prophesied death, burial and resurrection.

 

[Yahudim]

I've been working with how he could have fulfilled his own prophecy of 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth. If two different calendars are being spoken of in the Gospels; but the distinction wasn't made clear; because those who were following Yahshua, knew to foll0ow the calendar that the Zadokites were following; that might explain the math.

It might also explain why they thought that Judas was going outside (what did Moses say about going outside on Pesach?) to make a purchase on Pesach? Why would a Torah observant group think such a thing?

I don't know. That is what I hate about all this; I don't know.

 

[daq]

Brother, this is not something that happened in secret.

Yes, they did, the kingdom of Elohim is within me.