The Argument for Universal Reconciliation from the Book of Romans

[Der Alte]

Did you not say they could not hear his voice? Either they can or can’t and if they can’t how are they called out?

Where did I supposedly say that anyone could not hear Jesus' voice?

 

[Jeff Saunders]

The workers of iniquity cannot hear Jesus' Voice and they do not want to listen to Jesus because their sin is rebellion and usually sexual like being gay.
They cling to the ungodly lie that they can go all their lives without repenting, without changing, and still by some devilish miracle be saved after dying. That lie keeps them blind.

John 5:28 seems to disagree with you “ an hour is coming in which all those in the tombs will hear his voice “

 

[Der Alte]

John 5:28 seems to disagree with you “ an hour is coming in which all those in the tombs will hear his voice “

John 5:28-29
(28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
(29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Matthew 25:41
(41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

 

[Jeff Saunders]

John 5:28-29
(28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
(29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Matthew 25:41
(41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

In verse 41 I would like to know if the everlasting fire is the same eternal fire that took out Sodom and Gamora? If it is why will not God restore them just like he said he would do in Ez 16:53-55 when God said he will restore them to their former state? If he is going to restore them why not others?

 

[Der Alte]

In verse 41 I would like to know if the everlasting fire is the same eternal fire that took out Sodom and Gamora? If it is why will not God restore them just like he said he would do in Ez 16:53-55 when God said he will restore them to their former state? If he is going to restore them why not others?

God set the rules for His eternal fire He can do as He pleases. And OBTW only the fire is eternal the proof text you are referring to does NOT say Sodom and Gomorrah would burn forever.

Jude 1:7​

(7) Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.​

Note: "eternal fire" NOT "eternal vengeance."

 

[Aaron112]

"According to Biblical Christian denominations, "universal reconciliation" is considered


a false gospel because

it contradicts the biblical teaching that not everyone will be saved and that individuals have a choice to accept or reject Jesus Christ, meaning some will face eternal separation from God, often referred to as hell; therefore, claiming everyone will ultimately be reconciled with God is seen as unbiblical and potentially dangerous to faith.

Key points about why universal reconciliation is considered a false gospel:

• Biblical discrepancies:
  Many verses in the Bible, like Matthew 25:46, explicitly state that some will face eternal punishment, contradicting the idea of universal salvation.
  
  
• Undermining the value of Christ's sacrifice:
  If everyone is automatically saved, it diminishes the significance of Jesus' death on the cross as a necessary act of redemption for sinners.
  
  
• Potential for complacency:
  Believing everyone will be saved regardless of their actions could lead to a lack of urgency in living a Christian life and sharing the gospel. "

universal reconciliation

 

[Jeff Saunders]

"According to Biblical Christian denominations, "universal reconciliation" is considered


a false gospel because

it contradicts the biblical teaching that not everyone will be saved and that individuals have a choice to accept or reject Jesus Christ, meaning some will face eternal separation from God, often referred to as hell; therefore, claiming everyone will ultimately be reconciled with God is seen as unbiblical and potentially dangerous to faith.

Key points about why universal reconciliation is considered a false gospel:

• Biblical discrepancies:
  Many verses in the Bible, like Matthew 25:46, explicitly state that some will face eternal punishment, contradicting the idea of universal salvation.
  
  
• Undermining the value of Christ's sacrifice:
  If everyone is automatically saved, it diminishes the significance of Jesus' death on the cross as a necessary act of redemption for sinners.
  
  
• Potential for complacency:
  Believing everyone will be saved regardless of their actions could lead to a lack of urgency in living a Christian life and sharing the gospel. "

I am curious if you have actually read any books about the history of Christian Universal Redemption and what the teachings are , I have and you are showing a lot of ignorance towards the subject. Al far as Matt 25 goes the Greek word used for eternal is Aionios which many Greek scholars agree does not mean eternal, if they wanted to convey eternal in Greek it’s Aidios that Greek for eternal. Aionios has different definitions depending on how it’s used, most CUR people use the meaning of pertaining to the age. This is how many of the early church fathers translated Aionios and so do I. So “hell” is not eternal but has a beginning and an end. As for the second question everyone is not automatically saved, we do not teach that and it raises the significance of Jesus death on the cross because he eventually saves all 100% he loses none. If anything ECT diminishes the cross because you believe that Jesus failed and is not the savior of the world he only partially saves a few and can someone save a few and be greater than someone who saves all. The third point again shows your lack of understanding of our position. Because Jesus saves the whole of humanity all people are our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ and we see all as the body of Christ so we treat all with the same respect as Jesus did because we are all part of the body of Christ, some now the rest later in the next age. Once you experience Gods love and understand that the oneness of the Trinity is extended to all humanity, you can’t help but want more people to be in the family now there is always room for more and sharing the good news is really good news. We understand that Jesus came into our humanity and saved us from ourselves, God will not give up until all his lost sheep are found even if that takes thousands of years, he has time on his side, and God does not do abandonment he loves his creation too much to be an abandonment Father, that’s a human thing .

 

[Jeff Saunders]

"According to Biblical Christian denominations, "universal reconciliation" is considered


a false gospel because

it contradicts the biblical teaching that not everyone will be saved and that individuals have a choice to accept or reject Jesus Christ, meaning some will face eternal separation from God, often referred to as hell; therefore, claiming everyone will ultimately be reconciled with God is seen as unbiblical and potentially dangerous to faith.

Key points about why universal reconciliation is considered a false gospel:

• Biblical discrepancies:
  Many verses in the Bible, like Matthew 25:46, explicitly state that some will face eternal punishment, contradicting the idea of universal salvation.
  
  
• Undermining the value of Christ's sacrifice:
  If everyone is automatically saved, it diminishes the significance of Jesus' death on the cross as a necessary act of redemption for sinners.
  
  
• Potential for complacency:
  Believing everyone will be saved regardless of their actions could lead to a lack of urgency in living a Christian life and sharing the gospel. "

I find it interesting that I can believe that God creates some people for heaven and most for hell and he burns them forever while he supernatural keeps them alive forever even babies. You can believe that ok but the idea that God has made a way for all his creation to be reconciled to himself by Jesus dying on the cross and becoming sin and disarming satan . That’s the thing that’s condemned? This is just crazy to me.

 

[Der Alte]

I am curious if you have actually read any books about the history of Christian Universal Redemption and what the teachings are , I have and you are showing a lot of ignorance towards the subject. Al far as Matt 25 goes the Greek word used for eternal is Aionios which many Greek scholars agree does not mean eternal, if they wanted to convey eternal in Greek it’s Aidios that Greek for eternal.

Who are some of these "many Greek scholars"? I have shown more than once that aionios is defined as "eternal"

Romans 1:20​

(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:​

Romans 16:26​

(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

In Rom 1:20, above, Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” As you have correctly stated Scholars unanimously agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aionios” synonymous with “aidios.” In this verse, by definition, “aionios” means eternal, everlasting etc.
Other vss. for you to ignore where Paul defines "aionios" as "eternal. everlasting etc. 'Rom 5:21, Eph 3:21, 2 Cor 4:17-18, 2 Cor 5:1, 1 Tim 6:16, 1 Tim 1:17, Gal 6:8, Rom 2:7, Rom 5:21, Eph 3:21.

Aionios has different definitions depending on how it’s used, most CUR people use the meaning of pertaining to the age. This is how many of the early church fathers translated Aionios and so do I.

Please give some examples where the ECF translated aionios as "pertaining to an age." Which OBTW is impossible "aionios" is an adjective and age is a noun. A word cannot have contradicting definitions. What part of "aionios" means "pertaining to?

So “hell” is not eternal but has a beginning and an end. As for the second question everyone is not automatically saved, we do not teach that and it raises the significance of Jesus death on the cross because he eventually saves all 100% he loses none. If anything ECT diminishes the cross because you believe that Jesus failed and is not the savior of the world he only partially saves a few and can someone save a few and be greater than someone who saves all. The third point again shows your lack of understanding of our position. Because Jesus saves the whole of humanity all people are our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ and we see all as the body of Christ so we treat all with the same respect as Jesus did because we are all part of the body of Christ, some now the rest later in the next age. Once you experience Gods love and understand that the oneness of the Trinity is extended to all humanity, you can’t help but want more people to be in the family now there is always room for more and sharing the good news is really good news. We understand that Jesus came into our humanity and saved us from ourselves, God will not give up until all his lost sheep are found even if that takes thousands of years, he has time on his side, and God does not do abandonment he loves his creation too much to be an abandonment Father, that’s a human thing .

Please show me some vss., where Jesus, Himself or God, Himself says that all mankind will be saved. Here are 2 passages where Jesus, Himself says not everyone will be saved.

Matthew 7:21-23​

(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​

(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​

(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

When Jesus says "never" He does not mean "Some day by and by."

Matthew 25:41​

(41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:​

 

[Der Alte]

I find it interesting that I can believe that God creates some people for heaven and most for hell and he burns them forever while he supernatural keeps them alive forever even babies. You can believe that ok but the idea that God has made a way for all his creation to be reconciled to himself by Jesus dying on the cross and becoming sin and disarming satan . That’s the thing that’s condemned? This is just crazy to me.

What absolute nonsense. "he [God] burns them forever while he supernatural keeps them alive forever even babies." I do not know of anyone, ever who said or suggested that innocent babies or children would be punished in hell.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

What absolute nonsense. "he [God] burns them forever while he supernatural keeps them alive forever even babies." I do not know of anyone, ever who said or suggested that innocent babies or children would be punished in hell.

Then you have not heard the honest Calvinist because that’s what they believe.

 

[Der Alte]

Then you have not heard the honest Calvinist because that’s what they believe.

Perhaps when one makes that claim they should be more specific instead of implying that many/most denominations teach that.

 

[Paleouss]

Thank you for the welcome and for your thoughtful reply. As to your first question, yes: Luke 3:5-6

Greatings pdpayne2023. Many blessings to you and yours.

I just read a couple posts and wanted to address some of your proposed verses that you claim suggest Universalism. I find that many times we throw verses at each other and everyone ignores them and throws verses back. I believe that if one truly seeks God's truth, we consider all the verses together. Otherwise we are just picking and choosing. Anyway...

Your first verse you provided was Luke 3:5-6.

(Luke 3:5-6 NKJV) 5 Every valley shall be filled And every mountain and hill brought low; The crooked places shall be made straight And the rough ways smooth; 6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.' "

It seems to me that the part of the verse that needs to be analyzed is v6. Luke here is quoting an OT verse which is Isaiah 40:3-5. Just looking at Luke 3:5-6 first, I could see how one might think that Luke eludes to the fact that all mankind are saved. However, when we go to Isaiah to see what Luke was trying to quote. We get what Luke meant. And it seems clear it wasn't that all are saved.

(Isa 40:3-5 NKJV) 3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness: "Prepare the way of the LORD; Make straight in the desert A highway for our God. 4 Every valley shall be exalted And every mountain and hill brought low; The crooked places shall be made straight And the rough places smooth; 5 The glory of the LORD shall be revealed, And all flesh shall see [it] together; For the mouth of the LORD has spoken."

Here in Isaiah we discover what Luke is quoting is that "the glory of the Lord shall be revealed" (Isa 40:5). And what is the "glory of the Lord"? Luke is telling us that the glory of the Lord in which Isa 40:5 refers and what Luke is referring to as "salvation" is none other than the Son of God, Jesus Christ.

Luke replaces the word "glory" with the word "salvation" and asserts that the glory of the Lord in Isaiah 40 is referring to the object of salvation of mankind, which is the general theme of Isaiah 40. "Prepare the way of the Lord" (Isa 40:3), for the "glory" (Isa 40:5) and "salvation" (Luke 3:6) of God comes , and all mankind shall witness this, and shall be put under the foot of the Lord (1Cor 15:24-28, Heb 2:8, 1John 3:8, Phil 2:10, 1Pet 3:22).

a) The glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together.
b) all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

Both (a) and (b) are referring to the physical manifestation of God in the flesh, i.e., Jesus Christ the Son of God. The "glory" in Isaiah is later revealed to be Jesus Christ. Both "glory" and "salvation" refers to Jesus. And the reference to "seeing it" is a literal "seeing it". As in, creation will experience the coming of God's "glory" and "salvation" for mankind in the flesh. Luke is making reference to prophesy fulfilled.

Not at all a verse that supports universalism.

Got a little long. I'll address other verses later. Peace to you brother.

Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Perhaps when one makes that claim they should be more specific instead of implying that many/most denominations teach that.

I don’t see the “ many /most “ in my post I think you need to read better and not let your presuppositions cloud what you read.

 

[Der Alte]

I don’t see the “ many /most “ in my post I think you need to read better and not let your presuppositions cloud what you read.

Go back and read your post again amigo. Did you not write this? "God creates some people for heaven and most for hell and he burns them forever while he supernatural keeps them alive forever even babies."

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Go back and read your post again amigo. Did you not write this? "God creates some people for heaven and most for hell and he burns them forever while he supernatural keeps them alive forever even babies."

Go back a read again- I said nothing about denominations , I sad God creates some for heaven and most for hell , and that is what Calvinist say but I did not call out any specific denomination because even Arminian doctrine come to the same conclusion. If God knows all before it happens then he knows that most will reject him in this age and he created them anyway the end result is the same just a different way of getting there.

 

[Der Alte]

Go back a read again- I said nothing about denominations , I sad God creates some for heaven and most for hell , and that is what Calvinist say but I did not call out any specific denomination because even Arminian doctrine come to the same conclusion. If God knows all before it happens then he knows that most will reject him in this age and he created them anyway the end result is the same just a different way of getting there.

But as you see what you did say can be [mis]understood as referring to "most" denominations.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

But as you see what you did say can be [mis]understood as referring to "most" denominations.

Only if you are looking for it. One of the problems in my opinion is that most people on these forums only know the tradition that they adhere to and they criticize things that they don’t know much about. I think you fit into that category. You rail against Christian Universal Redemption but I will bet you have never read any books that explain why we believe what we do. You might not agree with the conclusion that we have come up with but it’s is an old way of understanding scripture that was very prevalent for the first about 300 years of early Christianity. Really the main difference is we believe that God is a loving Father and he can and will give people a way to repent after their mortal body is dead, that’s really the only difference. But we are called heretics and enemies of the Gospel because we believe that Gods love triumphs over our sin and will . So I would suggest you read a contemporary book about what we believe and have a better understanding before you make your arguments against us.

 

[Der Alte]

Only if you are looking for it. One of the problems in my opinion is that most people on these forums only know the tradition that they adhere to and they criticize things that they don’t know much about. I think you fit into that category. You rail against Christian Universal Redemption but I will bet you have never read any books that explain why we believe what we do. You might not agree with the conclusion that we have come up with but it’s is an old way of understanding scripture that was very prevalent for the first about 300 years of early Christianity. Really the main difference is we believe that God is a loving Father and he can and will give people a way to repent after their mortal body is dead, that’s really the only difference. But we are called heretics and enemies of the Gospel because we believe that Gods love triumphs over our sin and will . So I would suggest you read a contemporary book about what we believe and have a better understanding before you make your arguments against us.

I don't "rail" against anything. I express my understanding as cordially as possible and expect the same in return. Which OBTW I am not getting here. I don't have to read any books on UR by learned scholars with letters after their names. I can read the Bible for myself in 5 languages. I have a Masters degree from the flagship seminary of my chosen denomination. And have been engaged in pastoral ministry for 59 years.

"Really the main difference is we believe that God is a loving Father and he can and will give people a way to repent after their mortal body is dead, that’s really the only difference."​

The vss. which I present to counter the quoted statement.

Jeremiah 13:10-11​

(10) This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.​

(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.​

Jeremiah 13:14​

(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.​

Salvation is never mentioned after this.

Matthew 7:21-23​

(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​

(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​

(23) And then will I [Jesus] profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

When Jesus says never He does not mean someday by and by.

Revelation 21:4​

(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.​

No more death.

Revelation 22:11​

(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.​

No more salvation.

Revelation 22:15​

(15) For without [outside new Jerusalem] are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.​

 

[Jeff Saunders]

I don't "rail" against anything. I express my understanding as cordially as possible and expect the same in return. Which OBTW I am not getting here. I don't have to read any books on UR by learned scholars with letters after their names. I can read the Bible for myself in 5 languages. I have a Masters degree from the flagship seminary of my chosen denomination. And have been engaged in pastoral ministry for 59 years.

"Really the main difference is we believe that God is a loving Father and he can and will give people a way to repent after their mortal body is dead, that’s really the only difference."​

The vss. which I present to counter the quoted statement.

Jeremiah 13:10-11​

(10) This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.​

(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.​

Jeremiah 13:14​

(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.​

Salvation is never mentioned after this.

Matthew 7:21-23​

(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​

(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​

(23) And then will I [Jesus] profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

When Jesus says never He does not mean someday by and by.

Revelation 21:4​

(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.​

No more death.

Revelation 22:11​

(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.​

No more salvation.

Revelation 22:15​

(15) For without [outside new Jerusalem] are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.​

You have your options I have mine. I do acknowledge that the way you read scripture is different than mine , but like I have said before , the Holy Spirt is one one to convict not me. When we get to be with God face to face we will all see the things we got correct and the things we did not.